Dr Rupy: Today I'm speaking with Sheila Dillon, a multi-award-winning food journalist, reporter and presenter for BBC Radio 4's The Food Programme, where she has worked for over 20 years. The Food Programme is one of my favourite, favourite Radio 4 programmes, and I listen to Radio 4 a lot. Sheila and her colleagues have truly changed the way in which we think about food in the UK and beyond. Her work has covered the breaking scandal of BSE, do you remember that? The rise of GM foods, the growth of the organic movement from muck and magic to a multi-million-pound industry, the birth of the World Trade Organisation and irradiation at a time when those subjects were not given a gleam in the news's eyes. Honestly, she has really zagged when people zig, or the other way around, I can't remember. Sheila has also got a very special place in my heart as well. A few years ago, fairly early into my career, I was invited to her house to cook a meal and share stories about my mission to help people eat better every day. And she's really championed for nutrition in medicine, and she's bravely shared her personal story of her own cancer, something that she was diagnosed with over 10 years now, multiple myeloma, and also chronicled how she uses food to help support her treatment, which has thus far prevented the need for a stem cell transplant. And I just really think you're going to enjoy today's story of investigative journalism and why finding the courage to share your truth is so important. And Sheila's really vulnerable on today's pod, and she's also got one of the most distinctive voices, I would say, on Radio 4 as well. And if you haven't come across The Food Programme, if you're listening from abroad, you can check it out on bbc.co.uk, and I believe you can also listen to versions of The Food Programme on the BBC Sounds app as well, which is available. So definitely go check out The Food Programme. I've also put links to specific episodes that I think are particularly telling of Sheila's story, as well as some articles about Sheila as well, if this is the first time you're coming across her. But if you've been in the UK for the last couple of decades, you most likely know exactly who I'm talking about. Sheila is just an absolute treasure. Remember, you can sign up to the Eat, Read, Listen newsletter. Every single week I share something to eat, something to listen to, something to read, something to watch, as well as downloading The Doctor's Kitchen app for free. You can get access to all of our recipes for 14 days, but don't worry, there are plenty of recipes online, on the BBC website and on my website as well that we are growing every week as well. So for now, here is my podcast with Sheila Dillon. When did you get interested into the concept of food and health and how we can utilise nutrition as a means to prevent conditions as well as support treatments and therapy?
Sheila Dillon: I think it, well, I think there was a sort of background to it, just the way I was brought up, you know, and I was still part of that, you know, I'm so, I'm old, and I was still part of that culture as a child of, you know, food being used when you were ill. You know, my mother made beef tea. You know, that was, you know, that was just sort of the culture. It was obvious that you know, you could give people food and it would make them feel better. But I think the, you know, thinking coherently about it began when there was a study came out, and it must have been in the early 90s, which showed that that societies with high levels of vegetable and fruit consumption had less cancers. You know, I mean, it seems bleeding obvious to us now, but anyway, the study came out, and I thought, well, that's interesting. It sort of, it fulfils, it, you know, it says what I think is obvious, but here it is documented. I mean, it was in, you know, it was an, um, epidemiological study. And I said to myself, well, what would be the effect then of a diet high in fruit and vegetables with people who'd had cancer, were trying to keep, you know, were trying to keep off it returning. So we decided to make a programme, a food programme about that, asking that question. And we called, we rang, you know, we identified the main cancer hospitals in Britain, and we, you know, we tried to find people who could talk to us. And we were, we were met with derision. Um, it was considered an absurd idea, completely absurd. And I thought, well, that's amazing, isn't it? I mean, why would you dismiss that as absurd when you'd just come, when you'd just seen this other study? I mean, it was dismissed because it was epidemiological, and you know, not double blind, and you know, as we now know, those kind of tests are absurd in that world. But anyway, that was really the beginning of of seeing, of being, of seeing how people involved in the world of cancer thought it was silly. And then, so that was one step. Then my sister got breast cancer, um, in her early 40s, and it was a small cell, you know, it wasn't a tumour, it was small cell, it was considered, you know, um, terminal, actually. And she lives in Northern California, and you know, she was, you know, very Northern Californian. And she, but she worked in the hospital. She's a an occupational therapist, working with people with extreme, you know, bad strokes, um, AIDS, really. Anyway, she did some research and she decided that contrary to her medical advice, um, she wasn't going to have chemotherapy. And she had, she had a double mastectomy. And, and you know, we were, all our, her family, you know, mum and dad and me, you know, were just so shocked by this. And she consulted a cancer nutritionist and regardless of what everybody said, including her doctors, which was that she was signing her death warrant, she did it. She didn't have chemo, and she did eat in, you know, she did do this thing with supplements and, and you know, she's, she's now in her 60s and she's absolutely fine. I mean, as we know, as you know, one case proves nothing, but it was incredibly brave of her because, you know, I mean, they were, her doctors were writing her off, you know, you'll be dead. And so that, you know, made me think. And then I got cancer, goddammit. And, um, I got multiple myeloma. And I thought, am I going to be as brave as my sister? And I thought, no, I'm not going to be as brave as my sister, because multiple myeloma, you know, is, is your bone marrow and it's, you know, there's, um, and my husband did a lot of research and, um, I ended up under the care of Professor Jamie Cavenagh at Barts, and he was very open-minded and, um, I mean, I've had all the conventional, I mean, I went on a trial and I've had the conventional chemotherapy treatments, but I did try and apply everything that I've learned, um, about the, the role of food and, you know, the role of relaxation and meditation and all those things. But, you know, it was real, you know, because I didn't ask him how long I'd got, but my husband did, and he said, well, you know, it's usually about five years, and then it was seven years, and you know, I may drop dead tomorrow, but it's getting on for 11 years now. And, and there's a really excellent book that you probably know by David Servan-Schreiber called, you know, um, what's it called? Cancer, God, I can't, anti-cancer. And, you know, that, that puts together what we know. And what I, what I realised when I was doing this for myself, for my own health, my own survival, is that you just have to be intelligent because you have to be thoughtful. You have to look at the animal studies, you have to look at the laboratory studies because there are very few human studies because, you know, a, they very difficult to do, b, there isn't a lot of money to be made out of discovering that mushroom powder, you know, will help your immune system. And we have a system, you know, we have a medical system, I mean, you were trained in it. It's, it has technical brilliance, it has many marvels, but it has, it's terribly, terribly narrow. And I read about one of the things, I'll stop soon, but one of the things I'd read, um, when I got sick was about this, this study that had been done at the MD Anderson Center in Texas at cancer research center, about, um, curcumin, the active part of turmeric. And, um, so I told Professor Cavenagh about this, and it turned out he had another, um, of his patients who was taking high doses, who actually, I mean, he ended up writing about it in the BMJ. Um, she came back from, you know, when all the options for treating her multiple myeloma ran out, she did this high dose of curcumin and went back to normality. So he says, you know, this needs more study, but, you know, it hasn't been done. Anyway, so when I met you, when that's why we, there was this startling, there was this doctor trained in this, you know, in the system who was saying, look, you know, this, this, all these other elements make a profound difference to, to your chances of recovery, to your chances of not getting these sick, you know, they're not, they're not miracles, you can't eat turmeric and, whacko, you know, your cancer's gone. But, well, that's your story, isn't it, Rupy? And you came to the kitchen and talked about this. And, you know, from, from the day, from the, from the week we were making that programme, I can't remember what year, you know, whatever year it was, ringing at the cancer specialists, to now, there's been a big, big change.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, it's incredible how influential the food programme has been to not just the health and food conversation, but multiple conversations, everything from sugar to GMOs to celebrating baking to the heritage of bread, grains, all these different spokes of a wheel all centre around food. And that's why I think it's, you know, people's, one of Radio 4's most successful programmes anyway. But you've really spearheaded a number of things. And I remember that episode so clearly. It was a real pivotal part of my sort of public speaking career, I guess, if you can call it that. The, the, the sort of, um, the picture painted in people's heads of a doctor in the kitchen. I believe it was a rabbi.
Sheila Dillon: Yes. It was Levi Roots. Rabbi Laura. And a whole show.
Dr Rupy: It was fab. It was incredible. He was doing, I think it was Jewish penicillin, and then Levi Roots is obviously talking about his cultural heritage and, and, uh, the medicinal properties. And I think a lot of the, the sort of concepts of food as medicine or nutritional medicine or whatever people want to call it, are really steeped in something that our ancestors have, have sort of known intuitively or tested in their own ways. And I think modern medicine is catching up in a lot of ways. I wanted to to go back slightly actually and just if, if I may, talk a bit about your, your sister and what kind of spurred her to buck the trend. You said, you know, she was very sort of North Carolina.
Sheila Dillon: Northern California. Not Carolina. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Yes, yeah. Um, what, uh, what, yeah, what, what, what, why, why did she sort of go in a different direction? What were her influences?
Sheila Dillon: Well, I think it's because she'd been working in the hospital system there for quite a long time and she'd seen some pretty bad things in people with cancer and the effects of chemotherapy. And she, she already knew that this, this treatment she was being offered was not going to, you know, people, the doctors were not claiming this would cure her. They were claiming it would give her a longer life. And she thought, do I want to put my, you know, well, she, she's given to drama, maybe I'm given to drama too, but she said, I'm not going to let those, I'm not going to let them poison me. I'm not, I'm not going to be poisoned. I'm going to try and, and build my body so that to fight whatever it is that's going on. And it, it was her experience of, of being in a hospital, of seeing cancer wards, of, she just decided she did not want to go through that. And she was going to try this other way. And, you know, she grew up like me, we grew up in the countryside, we, you know, we, same experience, same, same also, I think, skepticism about authority and established systems. Um, like, really, do they know all they, you know,
Dr Rupy: Yeah, because you, your, your sort of early career is steeped in activism, right? I mean, you know, you've spoken about pesticides in the soil and, uh, big farmer, big food, uh, you, you, I think you, there was a lawsuit that you were involved in.
Sheila Dillon: Sexism, yes.
Dr Rupy: In your career. Um, sexism, yeah. So, you know, your activism is sort of like coming out and it maybe it was something in, I don't know, in the water in Lancashire where you grew up.
Sheila Dillon: Well, certainly, yeah, I mean, we grew up in, I don't know, certain skepticism. And also, we, you know, we were brought up as Roman Catholics. And I just because I'm, I'm writing something at the minute, and, um, you know, a Roman Catholic childhood gives you a real sense of injustice, or it used to. I don't know if it's any better now, but, you know, you're taught that God is love, and then you see, you know, you just see these terrible things that that were going on in our childhood in in the, in the Roman Catholic school we went to, just horrible things. So, you know, it, I think both of us, both of us were inoculated, um, against systems, um, which everyone said, you know, were fine, but we could see they were not.
Dr Rupy: And going into your own experience now, 2011, that's when you were diagnosed, you went down, uh, what some would say is the conventional route. And I'll be honest, like, my experience of my own health issues back in 2009, by now, most of the listeners are probably eye rolling because I talk about it fairly often. But, uh, just because it's relevant to this conversation, I kind of knew the ramifications of not doing something about my atrial fibrillation. So, atrial fibrillation causing sticky blood, an irregular heart rhythm that can lead to strokes, that can lead to some really serious consequences if not treated appropriately. And the treatment that was being offered to me at the time was, uh, yes, medications to flip the rhythm, but also an ablation to ensure that, uh, we're, the heart can correctly beat so I can avoid the potential issue of having a stroke. And so, I was definitely being pulled in that direction. It was my mum, who's not a medic, who pulled me in the different direction, was like, you know what, that's fine, but you've got to try some simpler interventions before you do something a little bit more drastic that has complications. There are complications with every intervention that we have. And so, it's, it's interesting to see that your sister's experience pushed her in a different direction to the one that I was, I was going in. And maybe it was because I was quite junior at the time, you know, I'd literally just become a doctor, uh, over, over 13 years ago now. So, it's, um, yeah.
Sheila Dillon: Yes, it's interesting what, I mean, it's very interesting that your mother was the one who said, let's try something simple first. Because, do you know, I mean, do you read the, the blogs of, I'm having a, I'm having a, um, the former editor of the BMJ, um, what's his name? Smith. There was a, he wrote this blog recently about how we have to fix the, you know, to be more realistic about the contract between doctors and patients. Patients can't go on thinking that doctors have, you know, magic powers to fix everything. And doctors have to face their own, um, their, the limits of their powers, instead of, you know, I don't know what you think about that, you know, sort of, you know, they're afraid of saying, I mean, this guy is a doctor, um, they're afraid of saying, you know, I can't fix everything. Um, you know, I can help, I can be a helper and give you access to these things. Do you think that's true? I mean, you know, that, because I do see, I do see people,
Dr Rupy: I completely agree with that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree with that. Richard Smith. That's it. Yeah, Richard Smith. That's right. Um, I looked up his name. Um, who was editor up until 2004. So, uh, looking at my own experience and also after chatting about this with with colleagues at various levels of, uh, their career, we were certainly taught, you know, uh, evidence-based medicine, a pharmaceutical model, um, a lack of sort of regard for any other sort of, uh, elements, uh, that could be beneficial in both prevention and supportive medicine. But also, when you're in the hospital environment, it's very hierarchical. So, you hold your consultants and your seniors in like such high regard that anything that they say is pretty much set in stone and golden. And they're very clever, educated, well-read people. But I think the, um, and I, and I believe this is changing now, but certainly when I was going through the ranks, there is this, uh, belief that, um, what, uh, we are capable of doing is pretty amazing. And other, uh, ways in which to treat a patient that they might be proposing to us is always going to be held in less regard. Now, I think there's more of a shared responsibility for management these days because I think, um, we have come to realise that patients have an intuition of what's best for them. And there's a lot of shared decision making rather than something that is coming down from the top, um, because we, we have this funny word in medicine called compliance. And I think, you know, even the word comply, whether a patient complies with a medication or not, is, is steeped in sort of the old world of how we treated that doctor-patient relationship. But I believe that is softening, but it has to come from from medical education and, and a realisation that we are not like mini gods, we are not like fountains of knowledge. And there's so much more that we have to learn. And I, I found out, you know, on the job essentially, but I think that culture needs to start.
Sheila Dillon: But that's what's so amazing about what you have done and, um, Rangan Chatterjee and, you know, this, this, this group and then of, I mean, I always find it interesting that, you know, a lot of the people in that group of, of doctors who are changing that, trying to change that pharmaceutical model are from an Asian background, where, you know, my visits to India and making programmes there, you know, showed me that that notion that, you know, all these other things play into health is alive and well there. You know, it hasn't vanished into the past like my Lancashire childhood. Um, so it's not altogether surprising that your mother, you know, when you were faced with these medical interventions said, hang on a minute. It's fascinating that that changed you though.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It definitely changed. I mean, that was the, the catalyst to everything else. It was the catalyst to me sort of having a bit more of an inquisitive mind, doing a bit more of my own primary research for my own personal gain, and then tentatively sharing that with, with patients on the job, other colleagues. And that was, it was the encouragement of my colleagues that really led me to sort of speak out a bit and, you know, start really changing the way in which we teach, uh, doctors of, of tomorrow, um, and, you know, the current state of doctors. Are you, are you going to the conference next week?
Sheila Dillon: Yes, yes, I am. I'm going. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: You are? Brilliant. What, what, what, so, you know, it's incredible. Dr, what Dr Michael Dixon has, has done by galvanising and collecting a group of, uh, doctors who have shared experiences and are trying to do things in, in different, uh, areas, whether it be herbalism or yoga or meditation, etc, etc. It's pretty astounding. And I think it's, it's, uh, accelerated massively just over the last five years. I wonder what your opinion of of that is, coming at it from both a, uh, a journalist and a patient. What, what are your thoughts on, on, on how that's progressing?
Sheila Dillon: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm utterly thrilled and, and delighted that, you know, that that things have moved so fast. I mean, I'm just, I'm, I'm astounded by it really, that that it's actually happening. Um, and, you know, one of the elements of this that you know about so well, you know, is the rise of Nutritank, you know, the, the students, the idea that two medical students from one university sort of thought, this is wrong, you know, this doesn't, this curriculum's, you know, sort of, there's something wrong with this, that that you can, you know, that students rise up, you and you doctor, um, that and then you could organise so fast and that you had such faith in yourself. I mean, I remember a conversation with you once, maybe I can't remember if it was in person or whether it was an email, but I was feeling very down about, you know, the, the attacks we sometimes get, you know, the, the, you know, the Ben Goldacre science writer, you know, very good science writer, wrote some great books. When he was introduced to me at a, before a recording, he said, oh yes, Sheila Dillon, um, presenter of Radio 4's astrology programme. Um, you know, that sense that, you know, you're just a crackpot and that, and you said, don't worry about it, you can't waste your energy on worrying about that. You know, sort of, we are the future. You know, we're, we're on the right side of history. Um, don't worry about it. Don't waste your time. And, and you know, that's tremendously good advice. Don't waste your time. And if you're, if you're doing what, if you, if you are making waves, people will react. That's, that's the fact. They will.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I honestly, I, I, thank you for sharing that vulnerability with us because I think that, you know, people will look at you and, and, and think to themselves, you know, multiple awards, investigative journalism, true moral compass, you know, has really spoken out on behalf of many people from many different backgrounds. And the fact that you still have those sort of reservations internally and you still have those sort of worries and, you know, the, the sort of, quote unquote, normal responses to, to things like criticism or public shaming or whatever you want to call it. I think it's really refreshing. So thank you for that.
Sheila Dillon: You know, and that, that journey to, to this, to, to understanding about, um, one should try and be indifferent to, to praise as well as to, as to people trying to crush you, is, I don't know if you have come across Susan George, but when, she's this remarkable woman who was on the board of the, of the magazine I worked on in New York called Food Monitor. And, um, which was, that was my big experience of, of, of, of looking at authority in the world of food. And, uh, and, and, you know, she, she's written these extraordinary books, um, and yet, she actually is still vulnerable. She is still, um, having to learn to accept that if when, you know, people pile in on you, it probably is, it is a sign that you've done something that's worth doing.
Dr Rupy: I wanted to talk a bit about your own experience, um, again, going back to your, your diagnosis around that time. You came across the anti-cancer book. I remember that book very well. A close personal friend of mine, um, whose brother-in-law actually got diagnosed with colon cancer, um, started using that book and actually he, his own story, uh, mirrors a lot of yours. He was given a very short amount of time and, uh, luckily, you know, he's, he, he's survived well over 10 years. Um, and that was like my introduction into some of the other elements of food. I was focusing on things like cardiovascular health and metabolic health. I hadn't really looked into oncology as much as I, as I could have. But that was like a really lovely sort of foundation for me to go into the reference section, dive into some of those studies that he'd, he'd written about. Um, and that set me on, on, on like discovering more, more people. What, what was your experience of, of, of your treatment at that time and how you were supporting yourself with food and, and lifestyle?
Sheila Dillon: I mean, it was, I mean, there was the level of, you know, one thing that was shock. I mean, the, the, the oncology, the chemo oncology department at Barts is just simply marvellous. You know, they're, they're wonderful. They're, you know, it's just beautifully organised and they're open and, and they're kind and, you know, they just make you feel like you're, you're being really taken care of. But you sit there, you know, and when you're having chemotherapy, you know, and you've got these, you know, the bags, the needles, you know, this poison is going into you to kill off these cells. And then these sweet people come in with a trolley. I mean, kind people, I shouldn't say sweet people, kind people come in with this trolley and it's laden with, you know, Lucozade, Coke, Mars bars, crisps, you know, every sweet snack in the world. And I was, I was genuinely shocked and horrified by that. You know, because of what I had, well, actually my husband was more or less reading that book to me, um, anti-cancer. And, um, this, this, you know, I thought, a lot of these people here are, they are here partly as a result of that kind of stuff that has become, what is it now, 55% of our diet in the UK is ultra-processed food. And, um, there they were, handing it out. And then this, I heard this, there was this young man, um, with a, um, multiple myeloma, and he was looking pretty awful. And, um, I heard the nurse saying to him, you know, are you managing to eat? And, and you know, and he, and it turned out he was, you know, he was going to the burger shop and he was drinking a lot of Coke. And she said, well, that's fine, you know, that's good. And in, you know, that old thing of, of calories, that can you think, no, that's not good. You know, I mean, yes, you want to support him and and say, but you, you want to say, you really need to, if you can, there ought to be some sort of support network for eating better. And so there was that, that level. And, and I just had to do the rest on my own because I wasn't going to get any, you know, apart from Cavenagh saying, yeah, fine, you know, I'll, you know, yes, you know, take the curcumin. I mean, I would have done it anyway, but, um, you know, him saying, yes, of course, you know, and and we'll see what happens. And, um, so then I, I, you know, I had to, I took from that book, um, all the advice about mushrooms. You know, I, I see a really good Chinese doctor who I checked out, you know, who had a, who was at that point teaching in the, in the joint degree between, um, Middlesex University and Beijing University. So, I, you know, I, I took all the advice about mushrooms, about the, um, um, cabbage and broccoli and, you know, I, my, I upped all that, you know, tremendously. I just, even though, I mean, I have a good diet anyway, but, but, um, I just tried to absorb all this, you know, the onion family. So my diet became, you know, every bit of the onion family, every bit of the cruciform cabbage family, lots of mushrooms, um, but you know, I, I just, you know, I decided pleasure was as good, you know, I didn't stop having a glass of wine with my meal unless I felt ill. But, um, you know, that I had to feel good about my, that, that food, well, I mean, I'm a reasonable cook, so, um, and my friends are too. So, I mean, that's how I did it. I mean, I stuck with that. I, I, I just, and my friends did, so if I went round for dinner, you know, there would be masses of broccoli done in an interesting way or, um, and then I had the, but I responded really, really well on the trial. I, I think I'm the only person on, I may be maybe slightly wrong. I think I'm the only person on this national trial who still hasn't had a stem cell transplant. Um, because that was part of the trial to see if, um, you, you could do without, you know, you could get to a certain level without a stem cell transplant. And touch wood, I haven't had one yet.
Dr Rupy: That's incredible. I mean, I mean, just as you were talking about this, I have to remind myself that you were privy to this information and actually putting it into action 10 years ago. This is 10 years ago. Now, when I'm hearing all those different things, I'm thinking polyphenols, glucosinolates, indole-3-carbinol, sulforaphane, all the different brassica vegetables. When you're talking about mushrooms, I'm thinking of ergothioneine, I'm thinking about prebiotics, you're probably supporting your, your gut system. When, you know, even a little bit of red wine is probably the enjoyment of the red wine as well as perhaps a little bit of some of those phytochemicals, even though they're in very small amounts. You know, you've got all this beautiful collection of ingredients that we, we do have science, we do have information now that demonstrates the benefits to those, perhaps in a supportive manner for people undergoing things like chemotherapy and immunotherapy, which is another form of, of cancer therapy these days. But back then, it would have been very novel. And so, you're, you're really like, do you ever look back at, at sort of the last 10 years of your career on the food programme and all the programmes you've done and just think, you've really changed the conversation. You've really planted the seeds for people to start talking about this in the communities that it's now
Sheila Dillon: No, I tend to, I tend to concentrate on my faults and the things I haven't done, really. Um, no, I mean, no, I don't, I don't, well, sometimes I think, yeah, I got, you know, you weren't, you have to be, you know, that, you have to be satisfied in yourself that you've done something. Um, yes, I did start that conversation, I think. You know, well, there are other people, there's the, what, the World Cancer, um, foundation fund. I mean, they've done, you know, but journalistically, we got that conversation started. Yes, and, and I'm very glad. Um, that, that makes me happy that we did that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah. And so, when, when you were doing all these things, I'm sure you would have got a bit of, you know, funny looks maybe, or certain colleagues you, you who might have been privy to that. How, how did you, how did you keep going? Like, how, how did you develop that sort of sense that, okay, this is what I need to be doing, this is going to be doing some benefit to me and just to continue with it. Where did that sort of motivation, that energy come from?
Sheila Dillon: I thought I was right. Um, I mean, that David Servan-Schreiber is a very powerful book. I mean, it's not just, you know, as you know, it's not just sort of declaiming that this is, this is the right thing to do. There's, he puts together all the evidence. He was a scientist, he was a doctor. Um, and that, you know, I mean, that was my Bible. I, I give it to everyone, anyone I know who, you know, a lot of people contact me now because if they get multiple myeloma, and, um, I, I always send them a copy of that because it's, it just, it just gives you the, it gives you the confidence to, to do the, to do things that are really, really, that will really help you. And so I trusted that. And I trusted Jamie Cavenagh that he was doing the best with the conventional stuff. Um, yeah, I don't know. My, my friends, you know, I have a history of telling them weird things. You know, I, um, you know, when we first were one of the, the small group of people who broke the, um, mad cow disease story, and, um, and I remember telling my neighbours, you know, they should be really careful, this friend, and, and she, that they should be careful, they don't eat processed meat, you know, don't eat, you know, cheap sausages, don't eat tin stuff, you know, just don't eat cheap meat pies, don't eat any of that stuff. And her, her father, who was a maths teacher at some grand public school, she asked him and he said that was nonsense, there was no way that there was any, um, possibility of this disease spreading to human beings. And then, you know, what, what we did early on, I mean, we won the Glaxo Science Prize for our a programme that we made about margarine and, and the fats in margarine. And, um, you know, trying to tell people not to eat margarine, you know, to stick with butter and olive oil, that not, you know, and I, my dad, my dad who grew up on a farm in Ireland, who'd been eating butter and cream and milk all his life, changed to margarine. And I said, are you mad? And he said, no, no, he said, I read it in the paper. He said, no, no, it's really bad for you. And I went, you're 80 and, he died at 93. And, um, how can you, you know, how can you say that? He went, no, you know, I was his daughter, the newspaper said that margarine was great, you know. I mean, I must say that that was one of the hardest things. People did not believe me about margarine. I did not believe us. And that was a gradual, that was, that was a, that was a hard story to keep telling because Vandenberg's when the, the programme that that we did about that, that won the Glaxo prize, they threatened, you know, they threatened us with, um, legal action if we went ahead because, because the scientists we were using, the science we were using was shoddy, it was not generally accepted, but we used to have a head of department, our head of department, and I would go to her and I'd say, you know, we've got this letter, we've got this, um, message from Vandenberg's lawyer or whatever lawyer it was. And she'd say, well, you must be doing something right. See, that was the attitude. And, uh, and the BBC legal department, you know, were just great. You know, they say, well, let's, you know, let's see what, what are you going to say? What, who's saying it? And and say, go ahead, you know, it's fine.
Dr Rupy: Fab. Fab. I mean, so they didn't sue us. They didn't sue us. Yeah. I mean, so again, like you, you, you've been on the right side of history because you've really gone with your gut instinct that this is right and there is science to suggest, you know, margarine is bad. Everyone kind of understands that now. I mean, to be fair, I remember still having conversations with people in, uh, in clinic about, you know, margarine and actually how you want to use good quality cold pressed oils or, or good quality fats instead of the, the margarine hydrogenated stuff, because that, that idea is pervasive. In even things like avocado being bad for you, for example, because it is a calorie rich, fat rich product. You know, those things are very, very hard to to get out of the, the cultural mindset. And so that, that's a fantastic example of sort of your, your journalistic capabilities. I also wanted to ask you about the BSE, um, crisis as well, because that would have been really tough as well, I imagine. You know, essentially doing the story that that could, what, it was the right thing to do, obviously, but it was obviously going to have ramifications on, on the economy.
Sheila Dillon: Well, one of the funny things I've realised is that because in this, in Britain, food is seen as sort of trivial, it, we, we were able to do more radical things than if we'd been a news and current affairs programme, because they would just, it's the food programme, you know, who cares about food? So we were left alone really. Um, and we had a, for a long time, we had a fabulous editor, Graham Ellis, who is now on the board of the BBC. But he used to take the, he took the line that, you know, I was a senior producer then, I wasn't a presenter, it was Derek was the presenter. And, um, and he took the line that if I was a senior producer, I was meant to be competent. Um, if I was not, if I was, you know, messing up, then I should be fired. But otherwise, he would leave me alone. You know, and if I needed legal advice, then ask him. But otherwise, just get on with it, make programmes. And, you know, that was, that was so, that was so freeing really. I mean, that you had to be responsible, you know, you didn't want to embarrass, you didn't want to get the BBC in legal trouble, but you could, you could do difficult things. And, you know, there are not enough of, of, you know, those kind of editors. Um, you know, I mean, we have a good editor now, but I, you know, I'm not, I'm not directly involved, you know, because I'm a presenter now and, you know, I get, I get much more involved than many presenters do because, you know, because I've been a producer and a journal, and I'm a journalist, but, um, it's tough because, you know, the, the, the changes that, that, you know, Mrs. Thatcher, you know, brought about at the BBC, you know, this, you know, in this becoming a highly managed organisation. I mean, it was based on what she'd already done to the NHS. You know, in my view, have not been, not been helpful. But, you know, I still see a, people, producers, you know, fantastically committed to a public service.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know,
Sheila Dillon: Sorry, that went off.
Dr Rupy: No, no, no. Well, I think one of the most important conversations we need to have centres around food because I think, you're right, we do trivialise food as something that, uh, oh, it's just like a nice thing to have on the side, a talking point rather than the core of what we should be talking about. And I think particularly with what's going on right now, with the cost of living crisis, the war, COVID, uh, inflation, like, food is a central part of where we need to be directing our energy and our resources and our thinking. Um, and, and health again is, you know, one of the things that we've, we've largely ignored, um, in the conversation around food. I, I, I wonder, I was going to ask you this a bit later actually, but, you know, in light of how, um, how outspoken the, the show has been and you've been and, and how, uh, expertly you've, you've been able at to, to start these conversations. What, what are the main kickbacks that you get from doing shows on these topics? Because I get a lot of criticism for talking about food in sort of this, uh, this manner as being, okay, well, this is something that only people who are well off can actually think about. And actually, it should really be about yield and accessibility and, you know, doing the best with what you have rather than, oh, you need to have X number of vegetables, you need to have these types of foods. Like what?
Sheila Dillon: Well, that's, that's the big kickback we've always had, you know, that, that somehow we are a bunch of, um, middle-class chattering classes and, you know, precisely, um, what you've just said. But my view, it was, I, I just was, um, I don't know if you heard this, um, James Rebanks, you know, who wrote English Pastoral, um, writer, um, farmer in Cumbria. He was one of the people over Christmas who the Today programme invited to be an editor. Um, you know, they do that, they ask famous people. And anyway, um, during the Today programme, he was, um, he was questioned, he was interviewed by one of the normal, the Today programme, um, presenters. And the, um, I was just looking at this before I started to talk to you because I'd quoted it in a forward to the Food Programme book. And, um, the, um, reporter said to Rebanks, he said, um, but there's a problem, you know, you seem to be implying that food should be more expensive, but we need cheap food to feed the poor. And Rebanks said, you don't fix poverty by making food cheaper, you fix poverty by redistributing income. What you've said is just propaganda. And the, the reporter just quickly changed the subject and just moved on to something really fast. And that's it. I mean, it's, it's, it's an incredibly difficult question because, you know, we have a very unequal society and we have watched it becoming more unequal and people getting paid, not getting paid enough to eat well. And, you know, I came from a working-class background where people cooked. You know, my mother had a full-time job and a, and a very unhelpful husband. And, I, you know, I'm not saying we should go back to, um, women, you know, women back in the kitchen, but we, we have to stop condescending to people from the working class and say, oh, well, you know, they really need to eat, you know, all this highly processed food. No, that people on the low incomes know what they ought to be eating, but they don't have enough money. And, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a, I just, I hate the fact that in Britain, it just makes me so angry that, you know, we get attacked by, by people from posh middle-class backgrounds, you know, I won't name names, but as, um, you know, as though we're this elite that we're just talking about posh food and sourdough bread and everything that no one can afford. But they are the very people who go off to France and Greece and Italy for their holidays and relish this culture where everybody has the same food aspirations, where they eat roughly the same food. I mean, you might eat caviar at the top and you don't at the bottom, but basically you eat the same food. We don't here. We divide it by class. Why do we do that? Why is food a, why is food a class marker here? You know, it's, it's, it's, it's infuriating. Um, but it's very, but as you say, you know, with the war, the rising cost of living, the, you know, the, it's really, really difficult. I mean, we're stuck, we are where we are. But we have to do something about inequality. You know, food, telling people that they should eat the food that makes them very sick, that makes the, you know, I mean, even in pure economics, in purely selfish terms, you know, and just let's not think about people's feelings. I mean, you know how much it costs to treat people with diabetes type two and, you know, the thing, all the things that follow from that terrible diet, all the things that, that, that happen to nature because of that diet. You know, the, the way we exploit soils. I mean, we need soils, it's all that we've got on this little revolving, this bit of rock in space, we've got soil and we think that killing it's a good idea? No, it's not.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I, I, everything that you've said, I mean, completely resonates with me and I think it is madness when you think about it, uh, and purely in selfish and economic terms, it makes sense to raise the bar for food because of all those different elements, you know, healthcare costs alone, uh, let alone environmental costs and, uh, uh, and everything else it can, it can have ramifications on. So, absolutely. Um, and that, that, I, that was going to be my, my sort of next sort of, um, inflection actually, because, you know, we've talked about BSE, we've talked about the, the margarine, uh, sort of, uh, cover-ups and, and what big businesses and, uh, large organisations are vested in. We've talked about how the knowledge around nutritional medicine is, uh, not pervasive enough in, in medicine. What things are we doing today that are going to have ramifications the next 10, 20 years? I think redistribution of wealth is a big area. What are the things that we know today that we will look back on in 10 years time and be like, wow, like, how did no one know about this? How did we not sort of, uh, foresee the issues that we're dealing with today because of what we could have done before?
Sheila Dillon: Why didn't we, why didn't we see much earlier that, that we had to farm, it's now called farming regeneratively. Like, why, why, why were we, why were we so idiotic about, um, sticking to this monoculture, um, you know, this way of, of using up soil and water? Um, why, why were we, why were we so trapped in short-term thinking? Why do we, why do we, I mean, I don't know if it's, if it's, if it came about, I mean, I'm sure human beings have always been vulnerable to short-term thinking because that's the way we are. But, but in the, you know, I lived through the Thatcher Reagan period, you know, that, that period of the, where the economists, you know, the Chicago economists and, you know, the market would solve all our problems and public equaled bad and private equaled good and greed was good and everything was monetized, that we've, I mean, I do see people who are born after, you know, after 79, and who find it quite difficult to, to think of a world where quarterly reports, company reports, you know, are, they're not the, that, they're not the measure of, of the way the, of prosperity. I mean, we've, it seemed like we've embodied a kind of short-term thinking. I mean, I'm thinking about when Pepsico, I mean, I'm not endorsing this as a policy, but do you remember when Pepsico decided to take sugar, all these problems about sugar seriously, and started moving wholesale into using artificial sweeteners. I mean, we know, now know that's not a good plan, but anyway, they did. But, but I don't know, it was like three subsequent quarters of, you know, of a drop in profits. And you know, they got rid of the CEO and reversed themselves. Um, I, I mean, the monetization of life is one of the worst things that happened in my adult life. There's something distasteful even, you know, when we, when we do talk about, you know, what you've just said about, um, you know, when we start monetizing nature, you know, as though that's the only way we can get people to understand that nature is valuable, soil is valuable, water is valuable. Because it's as though we've discounted, you know, thousands of years of human experience of that the way we feel about things matters, the way we, you know, it isn't just money. It really isn't just money. I don't know if that doesn't answer your question probably, Rupy, but
Dr Rupy: No, no, no. I mean, I just spun that on you because I, I have thoughts on this that I need to educate myself on a bit better. But, um, soil health from my limited understanding of it, from speaking to farmers and speaking to people on this podcast who are privy to, uh, the information around regenerative or biodynamic or, or call it what you will, it seems to me that's what we should be focusing on as an end point, as an out point of, uh, of, uh, farming rather than yield. And yield has sort of been, uh, cloaked in this idea of, well, yield is what we need to focus on to feed the world. If by, you know, some miracle that's going to cure poverty and cure hunger around the world. And I, my personal belief at the moment, and I, you know, I strongly believe this, but it's loosely held. And when I say loosely held, I mean, I'm, I'm very happy to change my opinion if enough evidence is to the contrary of it. But I certainly believe that we don't have a yield issue, we have a distribution problem. Um, we more than produce what we need to feed the world many times over, but we don't have the means to distribute it to people. And the other thing is, in, in the, uh, sort of chase, in, in, in the race to, to, to grow more and more, we're destroying our environment in the, in the process. And I think there are lateral thinking ways in which we should be approaching farming in general. And I think farming is something that I need to certainly, uh, put more intention into because without soil health, you don't have microbial health, you don't have human health, you don't have environmental health, and all of those things are connected. Um, so that, that's what I think we, we will probably look back in in 10 years time and think, how on earth did we not take this more seriously?
Sheila Dillon: I think, I mean, I think there is a great deal of evidence that, that, that we produce enough food in the world right now, but, um, it's a distribution problem. I mean, it's Amartya Sen, you know, Nobel Prize winning economist who pointed out that, you know, famines do not happen because there's no food. They happen because people don't have the purchasing power to, to buy food. There's always food. I remember during the Ethiopia famine, I could buy lentils down the, Ethiopian lentils at Sainsbury's on Holloway Road. You know, I mean, those things we, but the whole agribusiness industry is invested in saying we need more food, more food, more food. You know, we have, you know, these 15 billion that are coming, you know, we've, we've got to keep producing. But, but we produce enough calories now. I mean, that yield, you're right. I mean, the yield issue just perverts our minds because I've, this is a tiny little experiment, but a tiny little, um, story, but I've just finished 10 days of an experiment for our next programme on bread, and I'm wearing, I'm still wearing one of these, um, you know, uh, glucose monitors on my arm. And Natalie, um, Donovan and I, the producer, have been, um, eating a series of supermarket breads and, um, seeing what happened to our blood sugar. In fact, it wasn't that remarkable because both Natalie and I turn out to have very good glucose, um, we can, we, we can metabolize it really well. So, Tim Spector, who's been overseeing this experiment, Professor, you know, Tim Spector at King's College, London, you know, the expert on the microbiome, he was very disappointed in us because he reacts very badly to to supermarket bread. Anyway, but, but, you know, I got quite sick two days on this bread. And, uh, but on the last day, we both decided we would eat the highest quality bread we could get in our neighbourhoods. So I bought a sourdough loaf made from einkorn wheat, and I had 100 grams just like we had with all the other stuff. And, um, I ate it dry, just like the other stuff. And I felt great, and I didn't, I wasn't hungry for four hours. That's, that was my breakfast at at 8:30 in the morning, and I didn't, I wasn't actually that hungry at lunchtime. But it was just a very, you know, and I could measure my blood sugar, which didn't move at all. And, and it was just a little experiment of those things you're always saying, it's really worth buying because I felt ill on the, on the white slice, brown slice, malted, all those, I mean, I genuinely, my gut went into, you know, spasm. And, you know, it was like, yes, quality, it's not yield. You know, you can make a million loaves of that white slice stuff, but it won't feed you. Those two slices of bread fed me. They were food. And we've, we've got confused about this. You know, I mean, Michael Pollan calls them food-like substances. And they are food-like substances. They're not food. And we've got to think less about yield and more about what that, what, what we're growing and how nourishing it is, as well as what's good for the soil, the planet, the, and so on.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Sheila, your, your programmes have nourished me and, uh, and they continue to inspire a lot of people. And I, I just, yeah, I can't, I, I listen to it avidly. Um, you can listen to it on, on podcast now on BBC Sounds and stuff, and it's, and it's great. And the work you're doing is fabulous. And I can't wait to see you next week at the conference. It's going to be really, really interesting.
Sheila Dillon: Yes.
Dr Rupy: And, uh, I'm sure you're going to meet new people there as well. I'd love to introduce you to some. There's a couple of oncologists that you'll probably be aware of. Um, but there's some really interesting stuff going on, I think, in the world of, uh, improving access of whole foods, uh, to, to people who need it, uh, and in a supportive manner. So, you know, dehydrating things like broccoli sprouts and putting it into a powdered form and having that as an addition to a healthy diet as well as all the other treatments that we have. I think there's definitely the future. Um, and William Li is going to be there as well, who's been on the podcast, who's done extensive work in both pharmaceuticals, but also, um, food as well, food as medicine. Um, he's a big proponent of things like vascular vegetables.
Sheila Dillon: I don't know him.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, he's got a wonderful book as well called, uh, Eat to Beat Disease, um, which, uh, yeah, which is a great read. I think you'd find it, it's almost like the updated version of anti-cancer. Um, because he's been privy to a lot of the research himself. Um, so yeah, it's going to be brilliant. I think you're going to have a wonderful time and, uh, I look forward to seeing you very soon. But thank you so much for your time, Sheila. It really does, it's really appreciated.
Sheila Dillon: It's been great, Rupy. I want to say that, you know, I know, I know this isn't a, you know, you're marvellous, you know, you're marvellous, but you're marvellous, but honestly, you have, you know, you give me hope. You, you know, the rise of Doctor's Kitchen and, you know, you and that cohort of doctors and Nutritank. I mean, you just think, yes, you're all brave, curious people and it just cheers my life. Anyway, thanks very much. Bye bye.
Dr Rupy: So sweet of you. Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for listening to today's podcast episode with Sheila. I really hope you enjoyed it. Please do give us a five-star review if you enjoyed and also do check out the links to Sheila's own programme, The Food Programme. You can also download that on your BBC Sounds app and check out the articles on Sheila as well that document her own journey with cancer and food, as well as a bit about her investigative journalism background. And I'll see you here next time.
