Dr Rupy: Anna, tell us about capsule pantries. What is a capsule pantry?
Anna Jones: Well, a capsule pantry, I would get you to imagine your sort of capsule wardrobe and this is your kind of food equivalent basically.
Dr Rupy: Okay, so you need to tell me what a capsule wardrobe is because my wife tells me about capsule wardrobes but I don't think I've got a capsule wardrobe.
Anna Jones: Well, a capsule wardrobe is when you've, you've just got a really pared down group of essential things, essential clothes. So it would be your favourite jeans, it would be your white t-shirt, it would be, you know, your denim shirt and your blazer. The things that like the classics that you wear all the time. And so a capsule pantry to me is kind of the food equivalent of that. So it's the things that are evergreen in your kitchen, that are always useful, that you can't live without, that you rely on for kind of good food, good flavour. Um, good, you know, joyful, delicious food. Um, and I think quite often with cookbooks and in food, we can sort of be encouraged to buy these gigantic kind of arrays of things. And obviously for you or I who are cooks and recipe developers, you know, it's fantastic to have a gigantic pantry of spices. Um, but it's not always practical for people from a cost perspective or also from a sort of kitchen size perspective to always have all of these things. So, you know, when I started writing this book Easy Wins, I I I wanted to sort of drill down into the recipes of mine that people cook the most and the recipes that are useful to people. And the recipes that kind of change their Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night dinners for the better. Um, and I kind of sort of reverse engineered it. So I tried to think about what is it in the dishes that I make that I love, that my family love, that people come around for dinner and they're like, how did you make that? Um, and what I realised was that I use quite a lot of these ingredients which are kind of flavour shortcuts. And I guess that's where the phrase sort of easy wins came from.
Dr Rupy: Flavour shortcuts, I like that.
Anna Jones: They're kind of things that if you add a tablespoon of mustard, of harissa, of miso, it is going to amp up the flavour of your dish, um, but without much effort. You know, these, these sort of, these ingredients, there's 12 of them in the book that I've kind of built into a capsule pantry. Um, are, they ask very little of you. You know, they're the things that sit on the top shelf of your fridge, just hanging out. You know, for three or four months, asking nothing of you. They're using like a tiny little bit of fridge space, but when you get them out, when you open the jar, when you take a tablespoon out, that is like a massive flavour party. You know, if you think there's a, there's a, you know, a recipe in the book, um, that is like a chickpea, kale, you know, sort of stew and yes, you know, all very sort of standard, nothing particularly, um, you know, dramatic. But then you stir in some harissa yoghurt at the end and it transforms something that, you know, could have been a lackluster dinner into something that you're like, yes, I can't wait to eat this. Every bite is different and interesting and I want to cook this again. Um, and so that's to me, this, these 12 ingredients are the ingredients that make me a good cook and make my dinners sort of unreasonably delicious for the amount of time and effort that I put into cooking.
Dr Rupy: You know what, it's such a good concept and interesting idea of framing it because I'm often asked whenever I cook for friends that exact question, how on earth did you do that? I've got the same ingredients, but for some reason yours tastes different, it tastes delicious, it tastes moreish, it tastes unctuous. Like, what have you done? And I don't think I mention the fact that I put, you know, a bit of balsamic in there or a bit of acidity, uh, a bit of like, um, I mean one of my favourite ingredients is, uh, soy sauce. It just adds like, you know that umami. And I use it outside of your typical cuisine that you'd usually use like, you know, in Pan-Asian cuisine, Japanese cuisine, etc. Um, and you've distilled that in this book with your sort of 12 favourites. And I think that, yeah, I, it's because I don't think I've really appreciated that question and actually pondered on what kind of ingredients are my go-to.
Anna Jones: And it's really interesting because for everyone it will be different. So these are my 12 and these are the things that I love. But there were other things, there are other things kind of hanging around and it took me a while to get to this 12 and it was a bit of a kind of like, you know, food desert island discs moment where I was like, oh my god, but what if I, can I leave this out? And can I leave that out? And I sort of toyed with using more unusual ingredients because I think the kind of like experimental sort of cook in me that spent years cheffing in restaurants wanted to, you know, use more out there flavours, um, and, you know, use things like yuzu koshu, I don't know if you've come across that, but it's like an amazing yuzu paste from Japan that kind of is bright and energetic and fun, um, the flavour of it. And I thought, you know, but then, you know, you have to go online, you have to buy that, you know, not everyone can do that. And these 12 really are things that everyone can buy. And I would imagine most people will have five, six, seven of these in their pantry already. And also, I think the thing for me quite often in cookbooks that I have a bit of a bug bear with is that, you know, you might buy an ingredient and there might be one recipe in that cookbook using that ingredient. And then you're stuck with a jar of rose petals or a jar of whatever else. Um, and you don't know how to use it again. So that's why I wanted to kind of keep it tight this kind of pantry because I wanted there to be 12, 13, 14, 15 recipes for each thing. Um, and also there's something I think really interesting in that because underpinning the capsule pantry is like, I've done a bit of a deeper dive in this book into flavour, into sort of how to layer flavour, how to layer texture, how to think about seasoning as a kind of journey. So not adding just salt at the beginning and then at the end on your table, but using salt kind of carefully throughout how you cook and remembering the salt that different ingredients are going to bring. Um, and so I think that, you know, underpinning all these, all these sort of, um, ingredients are, is this sort of, um, inquiry into sort of flavour and texture and seasoning. I think actually, if we hone in on one ingredient, like you do in your podcast, you know, we were just talking about chocolate for instance. Um, and you really use that ingredient quite a lot. I think you become a better cook because, you know, you're using vinegar, um, in a salad dressing, but you're using vinegar to roast vegetables, you're using vinegar to season some courgettes in a kind of agrodolce situation. And I think it really teaches you about flavour and about how these different ingredients react. So I think there's something really cool about kind of being like, right, this week I'm cooking with lemons.
Dr Rupy: Yes, yeah, yeah. No, that's a really good way of thinking about it because I think one of the bug bears that people have with me and my cooking is if I've used like a spice blend like, I don't know, a bharat blend or a berbere or, you know, something that is not something you would find in your typical supermarket, you know, or your local grocers or whatever, you might have to search around for it. Once you've got it and you're only using that recipe, how on earth as a novice cook do you actually start experimenting with that in different cuisines if you don't have that sort of skill set to experiment like, oh, that's got a bit of cumin in, that's got a bit of cinnamon and that's got an aromatic flavour. I wonder if that will pair with this vegetable instead. Most people don't have that reflex. So I think pairing it down to the 12 ingredients that you personally love and that speaks to your cooking and taking people, inviting people on a journey to like fully explore mustard or fully explore capers. You know, I think it's a really intriguing way of of just getting people more confident in the in the kitchen and their and their pantry.
Anna Jones: Yeah, and I think that's like what I hope for my books and I'm sure you hope for yours as well. It's like I hope that people walk away with applicable skills. Like I don't want them to like be cooking, you know, the same recipe. I don't want them to walk away with the recipe. I want them to walk away as a better cook. And I, you know, eventually it's probably not good for the publisher sales, but eventually I want them to be cooking on their own without books and you know, having those instincts. And you know, I think we'll always buy cookbooks. I still buy endless cookbooks for inspiration and because I just love to flick through them. But um, you know, I think that is that is where I think both of us coming from different sort of vantage points would love to get to, isn't it? It's it's kind of like helping teach those reflexes. And of course there's amazing, wonderful cooks out there who would know how to use Ras el hanout in like 5,000 different ways. Um, but yeah, there are also people who really, you know, you know, who who grating a bit of lemon zest in feels like a fun and new and exciting thing. And actually
Dr Rupy: that's the thing. Like just that simple act, I think we may take for granted. And the more I talk about like food as medicine, nutritional medicine and bringing people along a journey of taking control of their health using their plates and this opportunity that we have two or three times every day, the more I realise you need to teach people the very basics of cooking and the uses of flavour because like you were just describing a kale and chickpea situation, that little drizzle of yoghurt and that little marbling of harissa completely transforms something that might be seen for some people as a bit boring and a bit bland into something that is magical, adventurous and something that they're proud to share with other people and genuinely enjoy. And so it's a really, really important facet I think of like not just cooking but also like keeping people engaged and and even like applying that to health.
Anna Jones: Yeah, I completely, yeah, I completely agree. And I think actually because, well, I'm I'm a vegetarian cook and people who, you know, maybe have come across my books might know that, but lots of people listening might not. And so for me, I think I know that not everyone is engaged in eating completely vegetarian or plant-based, but um, I think actually quite a lot of people have a bank of recipes, especially, you know, I'm talking about, you know, we we're talking here in London and I'm probably talking about, you know, my experience of, you know, British people and in in that term I encompass, you know, what it is to be British and multi-cultural Britain, but I do think that that quite a lot of, especially people who come from my background, like a, you know, a pretty standard, you know, British upbringing, we've got a back catalogue of kind of meat and two veg from our childhood, but we don't have that back catalogue, that kind of cooking heritage of making vegetable-centered food delicious. And so I think that is a really interesting place to come at flavour with as well because, you know, quite often the the meat or the fish can be the center, it can be what is bringing the flavour, the texture. When you take that away, I think sometimes people feel like they're sort of set adrift in the middle of a gigantic ocean and they're not sure how to create those layers. Um, so yeah, we were, you know, we were cooking with capers earlier. And I just think, you know, something like a caper is such an amazing, um, it's such an amazing thing to have in a little jar in your kitchen because that is bringing umami, that is bringing acidity, that is bringing saltiness. And immediately, you know, we all know, you know, about capers in a puttanesca or on top of a pizza or whatever. But if you're making like, you know, a tomato sauce, like finely chopping them, putting them in with the onions, with the garlic and creating already that kind of like umami base layer. Um, and then making your tomato sauce and then maybe sort of frying some in some olive oil and putting them on at the end. I'm, I find it really exciting when you can take one ingredient and then you can use it like a bunch of different ways. And I'm sure there must be health benefits to that because if you think about a lemon, you know, there's the juice, there's the zest. There's something that happens when you roast it. And I'm sure like coming from your perspective as well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. You know, if you use every part of an ingredient.
Anna Jones: Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, you know, it breaks my heart every time I see people not using the skins of their citrus vegetables in particular because those phytonutrients, the natural pesticides that actually confer a lot of benefits to us when we consume them in moderate amounts are actually concentrated on the outside. And they're also in the pith as well. And the pith can be quite bitter and obviously the zest can be as well. But if you're using it judiciously and you're using it, you know, to finish a meal, um, and you're trying to get all those different layers. I mean, it's it can be like a useful flavourful ingredient as well as something that adds health benefits as well. And then, you know, you're just talking about capers and we just cooked with capers, you're adding another diverse fibre into your meal. So you're adding more plant points and we know the more plant points in your meal, the more diverse it is for your microbes to thrive off. And everyone's talking about gut microbes these days and it's a very important part. You know, there's there's little seemingly insignificant additions to your dish can actually cumulate over time in in massive benefits. And that's something that we're seeing that's born out by research as well.
Anna Jones: It's fascinating to think about that because like as me, you know, coming from a cook's perspective, like I'm so excited to like zest over something zest. But knowing that that is adding something is like, you know, kind of doubles the excitement. And you know, I've actually been, there's a a lemon chapter in this book and I've been doing a lot of cooking with kind of whole lemons. I mean, I I love lemons. I feel like lemons are my kind of fruit spirit animal. Um, and you know, but but really, you know, I've realised that actually using the whole lemon is not as crazy as it sounds. So quite often I'll really finely slice a lemon, then chop through it quickly, you know, with a knife. So you just have really tiny little poppy, sherbety pieces. And then that goes through my green salad to give like an extra lift or there's a recipe in the book for a lemon tart where it's, you know, there's just very, very thinly sliced, um, slices of lemon and it just goes on top of this tart with cheddar and onions. And I mean the base is puff pastry, so I'm, you know, it's definitely a treat moment. But um, but you know, the um, but then that lemon once cooked completely caramelizes and you like lose the, you lose the bitterness of the pith. Um, and it becomes this kind of sweet, caramelly situation. So it's it's it's really, you know, it it's so interesting to kind of hear your perspective on all of these ingredients and I feel like it that, you know, and, you know, often when I hear you talk about ingredients, that then goes back and inspires kind of, you know, it it sort of redoubles my efforts on like, yes, I'm using this and I'm using that. And vice versa and it's so nice that that kind of happens, isn't it?
Dr Rupy: And it's like, even the way you describe food, like we were just cooking with capers and uh, white wine vinegar and you were like, uh, we use white wine vinegar at the start of the meal and we used it at the end of the meal. And you said this word that really stuck with me, it perks it. It perks it up, it brings it back to life. And just the way you just said, uh, it has that sherbety sort of uh, flavour when you use the whole lemon, you finally uh, uh, chop it up. Like that gives me even more sort of uh, inspiration of how these ingredients add something to a recipe. We have like these these things that we always talk about in Doctor's Kitchen, um, internally as well. We have the four E's of Doctor's Kitchen. So we educate people obviously by the podcast and the newsletter and we do all these things and like deep dives on ginger and chocolate and all these ingredients. Um, we um, entertain them. We want to be a joyful brand, hence the colours and all that kind of stuff. But we also want to entice and equip. So we want to entice people with deliciousness and flavour and stuff. And that's where like learning from people like yourself who are putting all your effort and ingenuity into cookbooks like this is really inspiring for us. And then equipping people so they can actually utilize that information about, you know, how to use mustard, something that most people have in their fridges at home. Probably people have used capers maybe for like a salmon board that they made at Christmas. It's still something you can use now. And so picking up this book right now and like using that in a different, completely different way is going to open up their eyes to how they can make healthful food, delicious food and adventurous food.
Anna Jones: And I think that entice bit is so important and interesting because, you know, I I I feel like there's, you know, obviously you feel so passionately about getting people to eat to feel amazing in their lives and to thrive and and and, you know, I I I definitely have the same feelings from coming from a slightly different perspective, but also this, you know, I I feel strongly as well about the kind of, you know, the sustainability and environmental aspect of food. And to me that word entice is so important because I just don't think anyone responds well to a finger waggy or a, you know, a sort of sensationalist headline or whatever else. And of course, you know, those things have to be said and we have to be honest about where we are in terms of sustainability and environment right now. But the entice bit is so exciting because if you can make, you know, vegetable-led food enticing and exciting, then then that is the way to change things, isn't it? And that is the way to um, get people on board. You know, and it's such a nice word. I love that.
Dr Rupy: Oh good, good. Maybe it could be the title of your next book. Enticing flavour. I'm just going to straight up steal it. I hope that's okay.
Anna Jones: I want to I want to talk about about mustard actually. Um, and just ways through, I mean every book is a is a journey, right? You're trying new things along the way. I don't know how long you were taking to write this book, but I remember in previous books you were like, it took ages, like, you know, a couple of years or whatever. But uh, every every time you sit down to create recipes, like you find novel ways of doing things. And I I wonder if there are any ones that you can share about particular ingredients. I'm particularly interested in using a bit more mustard, not just because like mustard is a fantastic, you know, flavour and all the rest of it. I just think it's one of those things that most people have got in the back of their fridge and they don't really know what to do other than like, you know, putting it on the side of meat and two veg or with their roast or whatever.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, well I think mustard is really versatile ingredient. I think for, you know, sort of teaspoon by teaspoon, there's nothing that brings more flavour than mustard. Really is there? It's like it's so punchy, so powerful. Um, and, you know, whilst I might have four or five mustards in my cupboard, you know, really if you have a pot of Dijon or a pot of English mustard, you can do a lot of things with it. Um, and obviously putting it on the side of stuff is transformative and a lovely way to eat it. Um, but there are lots and lots of other ways. I mean, very basic things that most people will know is putting stuff into a salad dressing or, you know, perhaps if you're making like, uh, you know, a dressing, a mayonnaise, I love like egg egg mayonnaise. Like that's a really kind of, um, common lunch in my house. But we don't make it with like, you know, thick tablespoonfuls of mayonnaise. What I usually do is like, you know, a little bit of Greek yoghurt, a little bit of mustard, and then obviously capers because they're coming everywhere. Capers and whatever, you know, soft herb I've got. And then, you know, that's then stirred through the eggs and it's absolutely delicious. So I think mustard, it, you know, it can be a front and center flavour, but also it's a really, really lovely kind of warming backup. Also, it's brilliant kind of, um, I find this with miso too actually, with because it's miso and mustard both got like, and actually miso and mustard go amazingly together. There's a miso and mustard roast beetroot kind of recipe in this book. Um, but either or or together. So if you're roasting veg, um, you know, just as they're sort of getting towards being brown, a tablespoon or of mustard or a tablespoon of miso or a mixture of the two, then toss your veg through that and it kind of forms this unbelievable kind of umami crust. Um, so really good with, you know, sort of your if you're like roasting new potatoes or something as well. Um, also really, really brilliant kind of, um, you know, base for like a tart or a pizza. There's there's a recipe in the book for something called flammkuchen, which is, I'm pronouncing, sorry to any German speakers. I'm pronouncing really, really badly. Um, but it's a really, really quick unleavened pizza. So you make a kind of dough, um, but it doesn't have any yeast in it, so you don't need to wait for it to rise in any way. Then you roll it out and this the one I've got, you they then just has a great slick of kind of mustard on it. Um, loads and loads of kale, some torn up mushrooms, um, and then that goes in the oven and becomes this kind of gorgeous. Absolutely delicious kind of, you know, I guess in the in the realms of pizza. But so deep and so delicious.
Anna Jones: A German pizza? I've never heard of this.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, flammkuchen. Sorry again to the German the German community. But yeah, it's a real, it's a really, really, really, um, sort of delicious thing. And when I sort of made the unleavened dough, I thought, brilliant, because you can just, you don't need to wait, you can just go for it. Um, but also, I think mustard, you know, is such an important part of kind of, um, what Indian cooking, isn't it? And, um, and, um, a good friend of mine, Monica, who who, um, who's been on the podcast. Cook in a curry, who I just adore. Um, she actually lent me one of her gorgeous, um, you know, one of her gorgeous aubergine curry recipes, which has mustard oil, it has mustard seeds, and it really uses kind of, um, mustard in a way that is, you know, not something that comes from my heritage, but I felt like I really wanted to include, you know, that, um, that amazing recipe and it's kind of punchy and it's spicy. And I think actually, you know, mustard is a spice, isn't it? We all think of it as this kind of like, you know, condiment which goes on the side of a ham sandwich. But first and foremost, it's an amazing spice and it brings that heat and it's completely, yeah.
Anna Jones: My dad is like a massive mustard fan. So back in so he grew up in the farm in the village in Punjab, northern India. And um, they grow a lot of mustard. And uh, obviously you use mustard oil, you use mustard seeds, you know, it's the base for a lot of uh, curries, a lot of vegetable curries, all that kind of stuff. Um, but he's like a big fan of mustard oil as like a miracle for everything. Like like like uh, knee pain and like, yes, yeah, like headaches and like rub it on and stuff. I don't remember just like ridiculing him, but actually when you taste mustard and that pungency and that bitterness and that firiness of it, it's actually representative of some of the powerful antioxidants that you have in the actual ingredient itself. And so like, there aren't great studies looking at it because some of these things just don't get the attention that they deserve in in nutrition. But it is one of those things I'm like, it is a powerful and it's a it's a spice. That's how we should think about it. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: It's funny you say that actually. I've got an Estonian friend and my little boy fell over and hurt his knee and she came over with some mustard compresses. And we popped it on and he was like, what are you doing, mom? And I was like, just go with me, just go with me. Um, and it's, well, I mean, it seemed to do an amazing job at kind of, you know, healing and, you know, he didn't bruise very much and stuff. And it can't, the thing is, it can't do any harm, can it? So, um, but yeah, it was amazing.
Anna Jones: Miracle mustard oil, I'm telling you. My dad would love to hear that. He would be so proud. I like the sound of your dad. I like the sound of your dad. Finally, he's talking about mustard oil. You should hear about the mustard oil stories I get from the farm. Oh, I love it. I love it.
Dr Rupy: I love your cooking. I really appreciate you coming on. I love you, love the fact that you came to the studio. You you christened it for us. It's great.
Anna Jones: Oh, Rupy, I'm so happy to be here. It's just a complete pleasure and yeah, it's just lovely to chat.
Dr Rupy: Great, great. Well, you have to come back soon. I want to try this bloody caper chocolate ice cream.
Anna Jones: Oh, yes. And also, there's a caper brine margarita too, which maybe one time.
Dr Rupy: Okay, I'm going to have that. Maybe one time. Thank you, Anna. I appreciate it so much.
Anna Jones: Such a pleasure.
