Max Lugavere: Well, yeah, fake meat is essentially glorified dog food. You know, it's like human pet food is what it is. Like the the ingredients lists are indistinguishable. If you were to put like a Beyond Burger next to some, you know, some some form of like pet food, you you likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference and that's what I put to the test with this post on Instagram and lo and behold, most people couldn't.
Dr Rupy: Max Lugavere is on the podcast today, somebody I've listened to and watched for many years on social media and whilst our opinions don't necessarily converge on everything to do with nutrition, I think these sorts of discussions with influential personalities online are really useful and productive. And I think Max is doing a great job of pushing the agenda on what could be described as the silent epidemic. As many of you know, Max's mother was given a diagnosis of dementia around 10 years ago and he devoted his life to her care thereafter. He has since gone on to write multiple books on the subject of nutrition and health as a journalist and more recently has launched a documentary, the trailer for which you can see at littleemptyboxes.com. And I challenge you to watch it and not get emotional. It will be gripping viewing that painfully documents the slow decline of his mother, but honestly depicts what millions of people and their families have to experience around the world. And if there's ever been a time to wake up to the impact of prevention, particularly in the UK as Alzheimer's is our number one cause of death, it's now. We talk about foods to avoid and why, the egg debate, plus exercise benefits and how to start looking after your brain today. Remember, you can watch this podcast on YouTube for free. You can download the Doctor's Kitchen app, of which we have tons of recipes all to do with brain health, mental well-being, skin health, inflammation and more. And you can subscribe to the Eat, Listen, Read newsletter where I share a recipe to cook, some mindfully curated content to help you have a healthier, happier week. And we launched something called Seasonal Sundays where every Sunday we do a deep dive into a seasonal ingredient. It could be berries, it could be rocket, it could be tempeh. There is no end to the list of ingredients that we're going to be doing dives in and plenty of you are absolutely loving it.
Dr Rupy: Max, thank you so much for making the time during your short London trip to to be here with me today. I want to start right into it. Let's talk about five foods that people need to avoid if they're interested in increasing longevity and overall health benefits.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I love the question. So, and great place to start. I think for one, refined grain products. Like I actually have nothing against whole grains provided that you tolerate them. I don't think that they're the most nutrient-dense food, to be honest. I I kind of consider grains in general to be glorified cattle food. And I and I but I do think that they can be added functionally for the benefit of providing starch, which if you're an athlete, if you work out regularly, I think that they that they actually can play a very useful role and provide a an additive value. Like me, for example, I spend a lot of time in the gym, whether or not I look like it, that's a different, that's a different story, but
Dr Rupy: You definitely look like it. I'll close and personal. I used to think that you were quite a skinny guy, but actually now I've met you in person today, you're you're pretty built.
Max Lugavere: Thanks, man. I've been working working out for 20 years, but um, but no, I've been experimenting with pre-workout carbs and I've been, um, you know, like as a as a source of glycogen, you know, and and glucose, which helps you support anaerobic high-intensity exercise. And I've been quite enjoying pre-workout oatmeal. And and, you know, that's something that I probably wouldn't have copped to five years ago because I was sort of like, you know, convinced that grains there was more risk than benefit. But for certain populations, I think that there's there's benefit. Um, but it's the refined grains, you know, it's the refined grains that are, you know, the eating rate is very high, very easy to digest. They also are not great for your teeth, you know, and I think that that's very telling. I think what's good for the teeth generally is going to be good for the body and and inversely, what's bad for the teeth, because a toothless animal in the wild is quickly a dead animal. So I kind of feel like what's good for the mouth and the oral microbiome is a good sort of barometer for systemic, you know, whether or not something is going to be good for systemic health. And lo and behold, these products, refined grain products tend to have very high glycemic indexes, provide very high glycemic loads because of their, you know, I mean, they're primarily carbohydrate and they're highly calorie dense typically. And they tend to typify snack foods, which now make up 20, 25% of of like calories consumed, right? Come from snack foods, usually wheat-based snacks, um, and the like. So I'm not a fan and they also tend to be harbingers of other additives that are typically not so nice, like added sugar and um, and the like. So I think refined grain products generally are one.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I I definitely agree with that. I think um, the more we're learning about the mouth and our teeth as the gateway to health is is great. I don't think dentistry has really been much appreciated in the the same sort of conversation around nutrition. And there's some amazing dentists here in the UK, one of which is Dr Victoria Sampson. Uh, she's got a functional dentistry clinic and she's using some incredible oral microbiota test actually to determine the health of a person because I think you're right, an animal in the wild without teeth is not going to be a very efficient animal and it's not going to be around very long. And you know, for us, without modern dentistry, it would have been pretty bad prior as well. So the kind of foods that we should be inclined to be eating are ones that are going to be obviously good for your teeth as well. And I think refined grains are something that we definitely have in abundance in in um, in supermarkets. I I I think certain even whole grains don't fare well with people either. Um, particularly since a lot of us are experimenting with CGMs, we realise the spiking effects of certain grains including oats. I love oats myself. I love oatmeal. I'll have it like, you know, pre-workout or the, you know, in the morning after, but actually, um, for a lot of people, oats aren't a great thing. And that's why I always tend to say to people, you know, have oats, but A, be wary of the dose, i.e. the amount that you're going to be consuming, and add other bits to it, whether it's hemp seeds or pumpkin seeds or sunflower seeds, add some extra fibre, add some extra nuts, because that could blunt the effect of the glucose spike that you could experience as well.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I never consume naked oats. I like I I mix in, uh, I've been obsessed with casein protein. So I mix in a little bit of casein protein. But yeah, everybody's different. Like our mutual friend, Tim Spector, right? Dr Tim Spector, he's not a fan of oats, allegedly. He came, you know, he was on my show and he talked about the fact that he, you know, he was eating a lot of oats and then he, you know, put on a CGM and he realised that it sent his blood sugar through the roof. So I think like grains are a spectrum and yeah, whole grains provide a bit of insoluble fibre, which can help um, with digestive health, uh, in some. Um, but I I tend to believe that healthy dietary patterns that, you know, are often, uh, that that are often attributed to the inclusion of whole grains are healthy in spite of the grains, the presence of grains, not necessarily because of them. And an example that I often use, uh, because a lot of our nutritional recommendations come from epidemiology, right? Like looking at population level studies. In a world where or an era where 60% of the calories that your average person consumes comes from ultra-processed, highly refined food products, anybody who's eating primarily whole grains, there's a lot of healthy user bias there, is my perspective. And and this is really easily illustrated with a a little thought experiment that I love to that I love to offer. It's that like, if you were to zoom out at the population level and take all the people who regularly eat quinoa, right? I bet you that their health is vastly better than the average person, vastly, right? For one, if you know how to pronounce quinoa, that's a sign that you're following Doctor's Kitchen. Yeah, yeah, not quinoa, right? If you if you access it, says a lot about your socioeconomic status, right? If you can access quinoa on a regular basis. So there's a lot of all like variables that I think that are confounding when it comes to like these these types of studies. And I think that's where you see a lot of benefit when it comes to grain, but I don't necessarily know that that's a an essential part of an optimised diet.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, I I get you. I think for me, I personally like having whole grains in my diet. Um, I think it really comes down to the dose. So for me, like an individual portion is probably no more than 50 or 60 grams, which actually, when you think about it, it's actually quite small. It's dominated by the other things, whether it be fibres or colourful vegetables, proteins, all the rest of it. So when I sort of create recipes, I tend to have a little bit of that, but not much of it. And I think you're right, the healthy user bias, particularly in epidemiology studies, is definitely going to be confounded. When I look at the nutritional profiles of perhaps some other whole grains, whether it be pearl barley or short grain brown rice, do you still have the same concerns about that compared to refined grains, or do you just think it's just slightly better on the spectrum?
Max Lugavere: I think they're better and I think, um, they can be enjoyed and, you know, there's value in that, obviously. I don't think that they're toxic or or anything that they're sometimes, um, described as in the social media space, certainly not. I just don't think that they're the highest quality food relative to, you know, relative to other options that might be at at one's disposal, you know? Like I don't think that they're necessary, I don't think that they're that they're better than dark leafy greens, than cruciferous vegetables. I don't think that they're, you know, if you look at actually, if you look at lists of of the Biel, uh, Ty Biel, who's a nutrition researcher whose work I I follow, um, published a bunch of studies. I think he even collaborated on a few papers with um, Gardner, who's Yeah, who who you referenced in in my podcast. He did a he put out a paper where he he assessed the nutrient density of commonly available foods. Grains were nowhere, not even in the top 12. It was dark leafy greens, um, lots of dairy, lots of animal products and things like that. So, again, I'm not, you know, I don't want to demonise them. I'm just I just don't think that they're uh, they're, you know, the best choice relative to other, you know, other choices that are that are typically available.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha. Okay, cool. Uh, let's go for another one.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. So added sugar, I think added sugar is a huge problem. Foods with added sugar in it. A little bit here and there, I don't think is is a massive problem, but lo and behold, you look at, you know, population level statistics and your average person is consuming 77 grams of added sugar every day. That's like, if you just want to visualise that, that's almost 20 teaspoons of pure sugar for which we have zero biological requirement, empty calories, provides no satiety benefit. And I think one of the biggest problems with added sugar today is the insidious nature of it. It's that it's everywhere. You know, if your favourite indulgence food has added sugar in it, fine. But the problem is that added sugar is now in commercial bread products. It's in sauces, it's in, I mean, you name it, any number of foods where you wouldn't expect added sugar to be, food manufacturers love to pump these shelf-stable products now with added sugar because it makes them more palatable. And um, and yeah, again, empty calories, provides no satiety benefit. We don't have satiety checkpoints in place to to indicate once we've had enough added sugar. And um, and yeah, and you know, added high glycemic diets are associated with increased risk for type two diabetes, for cardiovascular disease, for dementia, um, higher, obviously, you know, risk for obesity and the like. And they've done a number of studies where this doesn't fully reflect like real world circumstances, but you know, in they'll use like oral glucose tolerance tests to see what high sugar boluses will do to somebody's, for example, blood pressure. And they'll see that a high sugar, a single high sugar bolus can actually raise your systolic blood pressure in a way that sustains for for hours afterwards. Now, again, these are not necessarily reflective, like this is pure glucose we're talking about in one single 75 gram bolus, but you know, unless there's a threshold effect, like that's what the average person is consuming on a daily basis in terms of sucrose. So, um, so yeah, I think definitely something to be to be minimised.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. And, you know, uh, these refined carbohydrates and sugar, they tend to go together as well. You know, you'll tend to find like a a particular, you know, snack bar or a breakfast bar and it has refined grains and and it will also have sugar as well as a binder as well as all these other additives. So the two is a combination, I think can be pretty, pretty awful. And the other thing, just to sort of emphasise your point about having this excessive amount of sugar, the WHO, I believe, uh, have an upper limit of uh, 24 grams of added sugar per day. And so most people when they have their breakfast meal are in excess of the 24-hour, you know, added sugar upper limit. Um, you know, before they've left the door. And then what happens, and I see this a lot with patients as well, or hear about it, is you'll have a glucose spike and then you'll have a corresponding crash and by 10:00 or 11:00 a.m., you're going to be reaching for a coffee or a biscuit or something to get you going again, you know? So you're having this sort of constant excursions of of glucose and corresponding crashes throughout the whole day. And that obviously leads to an unhealthy pattern where you're constantly snacking as well.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. So, food number three to avoid is kind of jumping off the added sugar thing, and that is sugar-sweetened beverages, which I think are among the worst foods that you can consume. I think, you know, having a little bit of added sugar here and there, fine. If you enjoy a, you know, a pastry now and then, great. But when it comes to like foods that I really think most people should do their best to to eliminate, um, I think it's I think it's the sugar-sweetened beverages.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, huge big issue in uh, America and uh, Mexico as well, I've heard as well, right? Where they have tons of sugar-sweetened beverages. They've done some really interesting studies looking at teenagers, I believe, who have like upwards of three or four cans of cola or whatever sugar-sweetened beverage you like. And uh, the impact on liver fat.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's it's so rapidly absorbed. It's something that is just like so physiologically bizarre from the standpoint of like how sugar would have, you know, typically appeared in fruits for the for the vast majority of our of our evolution. I mean, sugar, you know, the for a hunter gatherer, the only place where they would encounter sugar would be from ripe fruit, which would occur once a year, um, during summertime. And it would be bound in the food matrix, right? With fibre, with water, it would be absorbed really slowly because of all those features. And um, and yeah, and our and and our operating systems have been set up essentially to, you know, convert that excess of sugar into fat, you know, quite effectively and then, you know, cause insulin to increase, which protects our fat stores. And that was a life-saving feature of the vast majority of our evolution. And today, unfortunately, it's summer 365 days a year because of the preponderance of of added sugar. And there was a research calculation actually published in the journal Circulation, I believe. And it posited that about 250,000 deaths worldwide annually can be attributed to sugar-sweetened beverages alone.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. Yeah, massive problem.
Dr Rupy: That's huge.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. I mean it's a research estimation. It was like, you know, a correlational finding. It wasn't like, um, but it it it basically posited this what I think we all, um, know to be true, which is that these these types of foods are not doing our health any favours.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean, you look at it from a chemical level as well. I mean, a biological level, you know, when you're having these boluses of sugar that mainline to your liver and then it packages sugar into your VLDLs and it raises your triglyceride level and it increases your risk of insulin resistance and then leads to the downstream effect of metabolic syndrome and, you know, it does have an impact on uric acid levels and that can raise your blood pressure. So you can see all these impacts downstream. But the worrying thing for me is just how well marketed it is, particularly to kids, and how ubiquitous it is in vending machines, not just in public spaces, but also hospitals as well. It's one of the like my my main sort of urks whenever I'm in a clinical environment to see a vending machine with sugar-sweetened beverages. It's just like, we really should not be promoting this.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, and it's like, it floods, it it creates energy toxicity in the body because it's just so rapidly absorbed. I mean, it hits the liver right at the top of the small intestine, it's absorbed and, you know, we just we're not like set up to be able to contend with that that that intense of a deluge of of sugar, right? And fructose in particular, which I had, um, Richard Johnson, who's a a nephrologist on my show recently, who, you know, I mean, he's done a lot of work showing how excess fructose actually depletes the liver of ATP, contributes to insulin resistance, type two diabetes. And he even published a paper recently saying, and of course, this is like fructose in excess, you know, a little bit here and there is no big deal, particularly when contained in whole fruit. But I mean, he he posits this hypothesis that and he had a lot of supporting data to suggest that it's this same phenomena that depletes the brain of energy and could possibly contributing be contributing to the etiology of conditions like Alzheimer's disease, which yeah, which nobody wants, trust me.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay, great. And a slight segue into fruit. Are you someone who sort of shies away from fruit or there are particular types of fruits that you enjoy or things that you would recommend and recommend less?
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I I love fruit. I love whole fruit. Yeah, I'm a huge fan. Um, I think there's probably benefit to opting for the lower sugar varieties, particularly because, you know, our fruit has been bred. You're obviously well aware, but in general, our our fruit has been bred to be sweeter and bigger than ever before and also to have less fibre and less of these bitter phytochemicals that support gut microbiota. And I don't think that there's a I don't think that the that I think that there's a non-zero consequence of that. What that is, you know, probably negligible in the context of the standard American diet where there's there's so much bad. You know, I think fruit is probably the best thing that you could be eating generally. I mean, from a from a carbohydrate, dietary carbohydrate standpoint. Um, so yeah, in general, I'm a I am a big fan of fruit. I love Honeycrisp apples, I love like, you know, I've also been um, experimenting and seeing a lot of benefit from consuming intra-workout carbohydrates.
Dr Rupy: Intra-workout. Okay, like in the middle of it or?
Max Lugavere: Yeah, in the middle of a workout. Yeah. I'm like the weirdo with a banana in the gym. And yeah, and it's been, you know, it gives you like a like a mid-workout bout of energy because it's it's, you know, I mean, you're getting a mix of fructose and glucose. Bananas are about 50% of each. So you're getting a fair, you know, decent bolus of of carbohydrate to help propel you through the remainder of your workout, which um, you know, which has value. So.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I mean, do you follow tennis at all?
Max Lugavere: No, no, right.
Dr Rupy: Oh, so tennis players always have a banana and like a potassium-rich drink uh, by their stand whenever they take a break. And you think about a tennis match, you know, it can go on for upwards of five, sometimes six hours, right? Uh, in the Grand Slams at least. And uh, they always like have a bite of banana and then they have a swig of their drink and then they carry on. So like the intra-workout uh, glucose and intra-workout fructose, I think um, is a is a good strategy, man.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, there's something to it. And and of course the the uh, electrolytes, as you mentioned, like the potassium. Yeah, it's great. So I'm I'm a huge fan of fruit.
Dr Rupy: What kind of workouts are you doing these days? Sorry, another segue.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I'm a I'm a bit of a, um, I love lifting weights. Yeah, it's my it's my thing. I'm not particularly strong or anything like that, but I just love, um, yeah, I love lifting and like the the practice of lifting and getting better and and stronger and like perfecting the form over time and learning about, you know, your anatomy and physiology and um, the the mechanics of of weightlifting. I just I've always loved it and I've sort of come to terms lately with the fact that, uh, you know, in my heart, I am a bit of a a gym bro. You know, which I never really because I'm not an athlete or anything like that, but I just love I just love the gym. I love like, um, and I don't do a ton of cardio, although I have slowly started to, I mean, I do a lot of walking, um, and I've been dabbling in like a little bit of a little bit more zone two because I feel like, um, it's something that's sustainable and it doesn't really deplete your energy from other exercise modalities. It's pretty easy to do. Zone two is like kind of like a light, it's sort of like a a jog just faster than walking. You know, just fast enough where you have to kind of jog a little bit, but it's not it's not running. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, I've I've seen pretty great benefits uh, to my heart rate variability from that.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha. I want to bookmark that because I want to ask you about exercise benefits in the brain in a second, but we're going to stick with the the things that you should not be eating uh, for longevity and disease prevention. So we've got sugar, sugar and sugar from what I've heard so far. Uh, what are what are the other two?
Max Lugavere: So, um, this is definitely going to be a little bit more controversial, but I'm not a fan of industrially refined, bleached and deodorised grain and seed oils. Ultra-processed. See, they're technically not, they're they're for some reason not designated as ultra-processed, but I think it's it's a it's an argument of semantics. I think that they, you know, one of the defining characteristics of an ultra-processed food is that they couldn't they are not able to be made in your average kitchen. And I couldn't figure out how to make soybean oil or or corn and, you know, like oil in my in my kitchen. So, um, so I consider them ultra-processed foods and I don't think that they're that they're beneficial. Um, and there are certainly better options out there like extra virgin olive oil where there's uh, way more evidence, um, supporting its use as the primary oil in one's kitchen. Um, and I don't think that that's controversial. I think most most nutrition experts would agree that extra virgin olive oil, there's just a ton of evidence. It's the hallmark oil of the Mediterranean dietary pattern. Um, and so that's generally the oil that I use. It's rich in phytochemicals that meta-analyses, um, of randomised control trials have shown in humans have an anti-inflammatory effect. I love extra virgin olive oil. But I do think that that we that there are a lot of questions remain about the uh, the consumption, the chronic consumption of refined grain, refined bleached and deodorised seed oils, how they affect other tissues in the body, other than for example, our lipoproteins, which seem they seem to get a pass despite being novel foods because relative to saturated fats, they lead to lower LDL-C, lower levels of apoB, which might, you know, theoretically reduce your risk for cardiovascular disease. But we have no idea what they're doing over the long term to our brain health, for example, or other tissues in the body. And again, this is a controversial statement, um, but uh, there was a paper that was published by uh, Amir Taha, who's a UC Davis food expert. T A H A. You can Google it. Linoleic acid and the brain. Um, that's like the, you know, the heading of the paper. And he raises a lot of these questions. And by the end in his conclusions, he, you know, he comes to the conclusion that this is not a benign fat for the brain. And to be clear, just to be, um, to make it clear, to define linoleic acid, it's the predominant fat found in these types of oils like uh, you know, the the soybean oil, the corn oil and whatever. And I, you know, I don't think that a little bit here and there, um, is, you know, going to do any any harm. But, you know, we're consuming three times as much, um, linoleic acid specifically as we had during the turn of the last century. So I mean, our our our intake of these fatty acids has skyrocketed. And um, and yeah, just over the past 50 to 100 years. And I think it's a a public experiment that we, um, yeah, don't yet know the consequences to.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, you know, I like to try and apply the precautionary approach and I'm fairly pragmatic when it comes to, you know, whether it's novel foods or whether it's uh, novel substances that we have in our houses and and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, something is relatively new, um, it's sort of guilty until proven otherwise. But there is the counter belief that, you know, if it's neutral, then it should be fine and we shouldn't be worrying about it too much. And I think the other thing with regards to these uh, oils that I agree with you are extracted at high heat, they can be chemically extracted, they can be solvents used to them that may have their own harms as well. But let's just assume you're using a a regular seed oil. They tend to be used in processed foods as well. Um, so would that potentially confound the negative impact if we're sort of lumping them together with processed foods? Because they tend to use like soybean oil and corn oil and sunflower oil in those kind of foods, right?
Max Lugavere: Definitely. And and thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, I I am I think that it's if you become obsessed with these oils, as some have and as some advocate for on social media, you're losing sight of the forest for the trees. You're putting the cart before the horse. They are found predominantly in in ultra-processed foods that you're better off, you know, avoiding or minimising. And so I think that really, you know, going ultra-processed foods ultimately are the problem. It's not necessarily the grain and seed oils. Um, but I think if you do have agency in your home, um, again, precautionary principle as as you as you alluded to, I do think that it's better off, um, keeping the oils, uh, out of, you know, the the oils in and of themselves out of your home and instead opting for these fats that, you know, we know that humans have been using for thousands of years. Like we've been pressing olives, you know, in certain regions of the world for thousands of years. You know, I'm much more comfortable utilising one of those oils on a on a regular basis than I am these like novel oils that have ads on TV for them, you know, that have extremely high margins and I just, you know, I mean, I just think that that, yeah.
Dr Rupy: It's it's funny, the strongest sort of argument that I've heard uh, for for some like, you know, experts in the field that are like kind of pro these oils is that when you have higher amounts of uh, LA or linoleic acid in the blood, it it correlates with uh, reduced cardiovascular uh, disease and reduced type two diabetes. Therefore, you know, it's potentially beneficial. Um, but, you know, I I agree with you. I actually think that I would avoid those oils, um, and opt for things that we actually know more about and actually have clear evidence around. Like what you were referring to with regards to the anti-inflammatory effect of extra virgin olive oil, you know, it's comparable to that of an anti-inflammatory. So some people who are having a couple of tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil a day have the same pain-relieving effect as some of the anti-inflammatories that I can prescribe or you can buy from a pharmacy. So that alone, I think is pretty impressive. But also, purely from a flavour point of view and the use of it in recipes, I really don't like the mouth feel of some of these oils like sunflower and corn and and and soybean. I much prefer the sort of bitter, grassy notes of a a good quality extra virgin olive oil or even avocado oil that has like a buttery note to it, but it's very expensive.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I mean, and I I have learned from the pro-seed oil advocates and the and the data and I've refined my message and, you know, I I will concede that it's hard to find, um, that the evidence is equivocal and that it is difficult to find evidence of an inflammatory, a pro-inflammatory effect. Um, but I do think that there are still a lot of unknowns. And, um, and uh, and yeah, I mean, this Taha paper was very interesting because he found in mammals that, so, one of the potential problems is that they create what are called oxidised linoleic acid metabolites or oxlams. And he found in mammals that they were rapidly responsive, that the amount in in brain tissue were, um, was was very responsive to the amount of linoleic in the in the acid in the diet, that he could like titrate up the linoleic acid and see these like these oxidised products in the brain like skyrocket. And so, you know, I mean, these are with rats that have like a two-year lifespan and who's who knows how that's affecting, you know, uh, the human brain. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, nonetheless, I mean, I think.
Dr Rupy: But you certainly don't see that with like extra virgin olive oil, for example. And so, you know, again, precautionary principle, I tend to go for that, plus you have the added benefit of flavour. Yeah. And the fact that, you know, it's it's generally very well accepted that that is an anti-inflammatory oil. I mean, the fact that they gave extra uh, oils in the Predimed study is uh, is pretty telling. So.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. And and most people cutting them out will, you know, inadvertently be reducing their intake of ultra-processed foods, which, um, that's a great thing, right? And it's not necessarily that the oils are having the health impact per se, it's the ultra, it's the reduced consumption of ultra-processed foods. So I think that that's a fair argument to make.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I agree. It's definitely a controversial subject and certainly something that I've uh, uh, yeah, I've I've been asked about and my sort of opinion is always, look, I know more about extra virgin olive oils, I know more about like even the sort of judicious use of uh, butter or clarified ghee. I mean, we've been using clarified ghee for in our sort of culture for centuries, you know, and uh, we've had really good health outcomes, luckily enough in our family tree. Uh, but obviously we don't like pound it in every single meal that we have or like, you know, put a whole bunch in our coffee or whatever. Uh, because we're uniquely susceptible to saturated fats, but, um, okay, cool. Uh, let's go for the last one.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, so the last one I would say, fake meat products. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Another controversial.
Max Lugavere: Very controversial. Well, I'm a I'm a proud advocate, an unapologetic advocate for omnivory. I think that an an optimal diet includes both ethically raised animal products and whole plants. I, you know, absolutely will will attest to the value of of, you know, incorporating and and likely even increasing one's intake of whole plants. But I also think that animal products are incredibly nutritious, highly nutrient dense, wonderful source of protein, um, and just part of our of our of our, um, biologically appropriate diet. And, um, and so a lot of people have traded animal products for, uh, meat and dairy replacements, which I think, you know, there is a there is a health halo around them, at least in the United States, that they are a healthier option. And they're not. They're ultra-processed, they don't compare nutritionally whatsoever. And I think, you know, were there, you know, were there long-term randomised control trials to to support this, I would, um, my hypothesis would be that you would see a health decrement, like a like a health, a negative health impact because they are loaded with additives, unhealthy fats, usually, you know, refined grains, um, and the like. So, uh, again, you know, I like all of the foods that I've mentioned so far, I don't want people to think that I'm fearmongering or anything like that, but like, but like, you know, a little bit here and there, fine. But if you are regularly consuming these kinds of foods, um, mistakenly believing based on marketing, billions and trillions of dollars, maybe not trillions, but billions of dollars of marketing at this point, that they are a healthier option, you're being misled. And the other thing is that people who adhere more closely to plant-based diets, they tend to consume more ultra-processed foods. There was data from France actually showing this. Yeah. That people who adhere who are more meat avoidant, who adhere more closely to vegan and vegetarian diets, increase their consumption of ultra-processed foods, which makes sense, right? Because you're like, you're cutting out.
Dr Rupy: Especially in France. Probably especially. Because they don't particularly have very many vegan options out there. So you're going to be relying on sort of like the ultra high process, like cheap, palatable, easy access options that are usually found in packets.
Max Lugavere: Yes. Well, yeah, that is a that is a fair, um, that is a fair limitation of the study that it was done in France. But I mean, ultimately, if you're cutting out a an entire, if you're if you're cutting out a food group as large as animal products, right? I mean, what are you going to replace it with, right? In a time where 73% of the items in your average American supermarket are ultra-processed. Like, what are you going to replace those foods with? Those high protein, you know, highly nutrient dense foods. Probably the ultra-processed products, you know? So, yeah, definitely, definitely something that I think worth uh, minimising if not avoiding. I mean, I I I never eat fake meat, but if you're the kind of person who occasionally enjoys it, go for it, but you know, it's you're not, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it's a healthier choice.
Dr Rupy: It's generally the line I toe actually, whenever I get asked about these meat replacement products, you know, there are versions of meat replacement products that I think are healthy or healthier, and then there is some really nasty stuff out there that when you look at the the back of the packet, and you know, again, not fearmongering or anything, but when you just uh, analyse it compared to most convenience and ultra high process foods, it's pretty comparable. I.e. it's pretty, it's going to be bad for you because you know, you've got all these additives and stuff. And I I fear that you're right, there is a health halo around the fact that it is plant-based. It is, you know, no animal products whatsoever. It is, you know, has added protein or whatever the health claim might be. And so just relying on that packaging and those claims alone can lead people to believe falsely that this is a healthy swap for the nutrient dense animal products that you might be consuming instead that are leaner, etc, etc. So, yeah, I I agree. I think, um, you know, some of the the posts I saw on Instagram of you comparing uh, certain brands, let's say, of plant-based uh, replacement products with dog food were pretty telling because I I looked at it and I I didn't cheat. I didn't want to go on like the website for whatever burger it was or dog food. And I literally could not tell the difference between them. And that that was really telling. That was when the kind of penny dropped was like, ah, I should probably be talking a bit more about these sort of replacement products and warning people, you know, that this isn't a healthier option. It might be a luxury option. It might be something you want to enjoy every now and then, but certainly not a daily staple.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. It's, you know, this idea that like, you know, I mean, most most people in the West on Western diets are consuming adequate protein so as not to, you know, so as to avert deficiency. Like protein deficiency is pretty rare. But high quality proteins like animal products, which, you know, you don't see the same degree of quality or quantity of protein in, you know, animal product replacements. I mean, like take a glass of like nut milk and compare it to, I mean, soy milk might be might be the exception, but like almond milk compared to, um, you know, like dairy milk. Like you're not getting the same quality or quantity of protein by a long shot. And this idea that like we're consuming too much protein and that we should be reducing our protein intake, I think that's a that's a hypothetical that can potentially do real harm, particularly in an obesogenic food environment where protein is the most satiating macronutrient. And by and large, Americans and probably, um, British, you know, British citizens as well, are already consuming largely plant-based diets. Now, granted, they're not consuming whole plants, they're consuming ultra-processed foods that tend to be plant-based. Um, but we're seeing the impact of that. I mean, it's it's night and day. I mean, we're tending towards trending towards uh, a world where half of us are not just overweight, but obese. I mean, that is shocking. And protein is a really valuable tool. I mean, not only do high protein containing animal foods tend to, uh, you know, ride alongside other very important nutrients of concern. There was a study published by Stewart, um, uh, he's a what he's he's a he's a uh, uh, protein researcher. I'm forgetting his last name. Stewart Phillips, there you go. Uh, who's a highly published protein researcher who published on this, the fact that like, you know, protein containing foods tend to not only contain protein, they contain, they they tend to be very nutrient dense. And that's what that Biel paper also, um, corroborated. So it's it's that, but it's also, you know, it's the fact that protein is so incredibly satiating. And so, um, yeah, like removing high protein foods from your diet and replacing it with these like these, um, facsimiles to me, yeah, it doesn't make a ton of sense.
Dr Rupy: I did a podcast recently on um, uh, eating on a budget, right? And uh, unfortunately, you know, just through the fact that animal products are more expensive, having a budget focused diet actually removes some of those those products from your basket. And so you need to be less reliant on them, still have some, but perhaps more judicious about them and actually introduce more plant-based proteins to your diet that tend to be cheaper and readily accessible. And I remember looking at the protein amounts for these different products, whether it's different types of beans or nuts or seeds and all that kind of stuff. And it is very hard to run away from the fact that you are going to get lower amounts of protein per 100 grams or per calorie than you are with uh, the equivalent animal-based product, whether it's an egg or a piece of lean beef or whatever it might be. And actually, the combination of those, yes, you do get all those nine essential amino acids, but you have lower amounts of methionine or uh, you know, leucine or whatever, which are the really important building blocks for protein synthesis and ensuring that you're going to be not just protein adequate, but actually, you know, uh, uh, good levels of of protein. Um, and I think there's sort of like uh, a bit of, not dogma I want to say, but sort of uh, a cognitive dissonance from this idea that you can't achieve uh, you can achieve like protein adequacy on a plant-based diet. And actually, it's just more difficult. You have to eat a lot more of those products to maintain the same amount of protein as you can if you just eat animal products or at least some animal products. Is that something that you sort of have sort of discussions with with with plant-based persuaders?
Max Lugavere: Totally. I, yeah, I completely agree that, you know, if when when you're eating if you're eating enough protein, you can stimulate the muscle protein synthesis to the same degree on a plant-based diet as compared to an omnivorous diet. I mean, that's been shown that there's really no functional difference assuming you're consuming enough protein. And and from a diversity of sources as well, right? Yeah. Because all all plants contain all amino acids but in varying amounts. Some contain very low levels of, you know, lysine or methionine or whatever. So you've got to kind of combine them. And most most people on a vegan diet are kind of aware of that at this point.
Dr Rupy: And most cultures have combined as well, traditionally. You know, when you have lentils and and rice and, you know, if you look at African cultures, Indian cultures, they tend to have this combining effect. So there's something in the DNA of our food history that has worked out, you need to combine these different sources.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. But lo and behold, you look at the population level of people who are on vegan diets, they do tend to consume less protein, they do tend to have lower muscle mass, and they do tend to have worse bone health. And at greater risk of hip fractures and, you know, and that's just like scratching the surface. And so we were talking about on on my podcast how, you know, you've got to make it simple for people, you know, it's just that that concept of like one more, right? So if you take your average person and you mislead them into thinking that the vegan diet, you know, cutting out all of their favourite animal products and like doing this dramatic overhaul of their lifestyle, right? And putting them on this plant-based diet is going to lead to their better health. And then thinking that, you know, because as you acknowledged, it's it's harder to to get the amount of protein that you need for optimal flourishing, right? On the vegan diet. And then you give them all these other guidelines and rules, I mean, you're kind of setting them up for failure. I mean, obviously some people are going to be able to do it, right? Especially people on that have social media accounts that are like essentially career vegans that, you know, their whole their their rent is paid by by appealing to how easy this is supposed to look and how great they feel when they're on it. But for your average person, it's a very difficult, it's a difficult diet.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And I don't advocate for, I'm not a keto advocate or anything like that. I'm just I, you know, I try to advocate the most balanced diet that's inclusive of both. I think that that's that's optimal because it is.
Max Lugavere: It's a very good point. You know, making it easier for people would actually be introducing easily bioavailable proteins of which you're you're going to get from animal-based proteins versus plant-based where you have to put a lot more effort into it. And I think we need to appreciate the fact that if you do go on a fully plant-based diet, it's going to require a lot more effort. It's going to require a lot more motivation and it is harder just as a product of our food landscape to maintain that kind of diet to the amounts that you need to maintain not just sufficiency, but optimal levels for all these different nutrients.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And, you know, it is it's it's satiating, it's, you know, fighting off frailty as we get older. I mean, that's a real concern. Um, sarcopenic obesity is like on the rise. Obesity itself is on the rise and then, you know, we we do see a progressive decline in muscle mass as people get older, especially in in the states, you know, probably here just because of our lifestyles have become so sedentary. 25% of of adults are are completely sedentary. Now, resistance training and and and exercising, I mean, that's of paramount importance, right? So protein isn't the only variable here. Um, not enough people are are resistance training, which is a whole other rabbit hole to go down. But I do think protein is really important and not to be underappreciated.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. Let's uh, let's wait into another controversial subject, shall we? As we're on this topic. Uh, what are your thoughts on the whole egg debate? Uh, and whether you think uh, you know, people should be having eggs, eating as many eggs as they can, avoiding eggs? Like what what is your opinion on that?
Max Lugavere: I think you should only be avoiding eggs if you're allergic to them, um, or sensitive to them. I think that they're wonderful foods. Um, I call them a genius food. Like Mother Nature has designed an egg yolk to contain everything that that is important to grow a brain. And so it literally is, it's one of nature's multivitamins. I mean, if you look at what an egg yolk contains, it's got it's a it's loaded with choline, which we know is crucially important to create brain cell membranes. It's a great source of vitamin B12, it's a great source of, you know, DHA fat, myriad micronutrients. And the fact that it has so much cholesterol in it, it's no wonder. The brain is 25% of total body cholesterol is is accounted for by the brain. Now, I'm not saying that you need to eat cholesterol to support brain health. That's not what I'm saying, but it's just no wonder, right? That an egg yolk is loaded with cholesterol. Why? Because it's there to support the growing neonate brain. And so, uh, you know, fears about dietary cholesterol, I think have long been uh, abolished by by the latest medical science. I mean, a lot of people will still parrot on social media that dietary cholesterol is not good for our, um, you know, for our lipids, but that's like, you know, it's like the 70s called, they want their science back. And um, and there are there are exceptions, right? There are hyper, there are hyper absorbers and the like. But for the for the majority of people, dietary cholesterol really shouldn't be a concern. There's so much benefit to be gained by eating eggs, right? The risks are very low. Again, if you're allergic, sensitive, I mean, eggs are, which which was pretty shocking to me when I when I learned this that they are one of the top foods that people tend to have sensitivities to.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Max Lugavere: Um, particularly in the white. But, um.
Dr Rupy: I didn't realise that. It's not the yolk.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, it's not the yolk.
Dr Rupy: Oh, as in whites, sorry.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, yeah, white eggs.
Dr Rupy: I thought you meant white people.
Max Lugavere: Oh, white people.
Dr Rupy: That was a weird way to say white people.
Max Lugavere: In the whites.
Dr Rupy: Sorry for that assumption.
Max Lugavere: That was funny. Um, no, in the in the whites, you want to make sure that your whites are cooked through. The yolk is great to be run, it's, you know, I mean, I personally enjoy a runny yolk, but you want to make sure that your whites are fully cooked through. And um, the egg component, not people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and uh, and yeah, so I'm a I'm a huge fan. Um, great source of lutein and zeaxanthin, um, which are carotenoids, which directly support eye health and brain health. In terms of their concentration, not as high as a dark leafy green like kale, but very bioavailable because they're bound to fats and fats facilitate their absorption. And um, and so yeah, so I'm a I'm a, yeah, there's there's very little downside.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I uh, I I I constantly get asked about eggs uh, all the time, whether I'm pro-eggs or anti-eggs. And I I agree. I think it's one of those, one of the most impressive foods when you look at the stats, whether it's protein, the quality of fats, the uh, the lutein and zeaxanthin like you mentioned, vitamin D, you know, all these different elements of egg that make it a fantastic source for all these different nutrients. Um, but then lurking in the back of my head are like some patients that I've seen that have high cholesterol as measured by not just LDL-C, but also apoB containing lipoproteins, who do hyper absorb some of that cholesterol. And whilst, I think it was the 2015 National Lipidology Society in America, the NLS, I think it is called, or maybe it's the NLA, I can't remember now. But um, they sort of squashed this whole idea that, you know, dietary cholesterol is going to impact your cholesterol levels as measured by blood markers. Um, but for some people, that still does have an effect. And I think, you know, as a as a doc, when I'm seeing patients and I'm talking to them about their diet and stuff and we're trying to optimise all these different things, I think minimising certain people's egg consumption and in some cases avoiding it might be the reasonable thing to suggest, even though it pains me because I love eggs myself and I like them runny as well.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. Do you triage your approach though and maybe have them reduce saturated fat first? Because we know that saturated fat can certain saturated fatty acids to be to be more specific. Yes. Do have an effect.
Dr Rupy: You're right. And the saturated fat content in eggs is actually quite low comparatively to other things like marbled red meats or, you know, skin on chicken, all the rest of it. Um, with the exception of dairy now that people are coming around to this idea that it not it's not just saturated fats, like many people don't realise this actually that there are many different types of saturated fats in different forms as well. And there may be some protective elements of fat, even trans fats as well, CLA. That you find in dairy that might be and you know, for someone who's been like for a long time spouting this idea of like you need to remove all trans fats and now I'm like, oh, actually, not all trans fats. Damn it, nutrition.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, we're just students at the end of the day. I mean, you know, it's it's incredible. Um, but yeah, you're right. And the the uh, ruminant animals, they produce it in their guts. And it gets incorporated into the milk and into the fat. Yeah, it's it's uh, I mean, there's not a ton of data on CLA, but there's, you know, there's potentially like an anti-cancer effect. Conjugated linoleic acid.
Dr Rupy: Acid. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, dairy might be something that we put back on the menu. But you're right, yes, saturated fat is something that we'd remove first and then we'd be thinking about eggs. But, you know, a lot of people just want to whack it as hard as possible because they're trying to they're trying to avoid the use of statins that they might not have a particularly good um, experience with because of myalgia and all the other side effects that you can get from statins. You know, there are other lipid-lowering therapies that we can use like fibrates and stuff, but yeah, that is uh, is certainly something that pains me when I have to suggest to someone that they have to remove eggs from their diet. Um, I want to ask about exercise and the brain. We were talking a little bit about, you know, weight training and strength training. What what do we know about exercise and the brain? Because this is something that I'm trying to teach my parents about. I'm trying to really get them motivated to start moving every single day and doing a variety of different exercises because I want to keep their cognitive faculties going.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, well, when it comes to the brain, exercise is medicine. And, you know, ultimately, whatever your favourite exercise modality is, I think just do that. But I do think that resistance training really has, there's been a bias in the literature for aerobic training just because from a basic science standpoint, it's a lot easier to get a mouse to run on a treadmill, you know, and then to sacrifice the mouse and see what it's done to its brain, um, than it is to make a mouse start to learn how to bench press and and, you know, do curls and and shoulder press and stuff like that. Um, but the research is starting to come out showing us that resistance training is really beneficial and particularly for older populations. I mean, the brain thrives atop a body that is that that moves. And so from a bone health standpoint, from ensuring that you're able to, you know, continue to be mobile as you age, I mean, there's there's nothing better really than than resistance training. It also increases your, you know, your ability to dispose of glucose. We all eat relatively high carbohydrates these days and we have very limited capacity to store the glucose that those carbohydrates yield. Um, our musculature is uh, is is one way, um, the primary way that we that we store glucose. And um, for fostering whole body insulin sensitivity, it's incredibly important. And also as a means of preventing cognitive decline, I think, um, avoiding hypertension is really important. And exercise is incredibly effective, if not, it's as effective as drugs, actually, meta-analyses show, um, for reducing high blood pressure. And, um, and so too is resistance training. So I mean, you always want to check with your doctor to make sure that it's it's safe for you to do, but I mean, for most people, it's it's safe and and in fact, incredibly healthy. There was a meta-analysis that looked at like the the dose, um, of resistance training and this just came out. Um, and it found that, um, provided your resistance training is is moderate to high intensity and you're doing it, um, I believe at least twice a week, that there was a pronounced, significant effect, um, on systolic blood pressure of resistance training, exclusively.
Dr Rupy: Exclusively, just resistance training. Wow.
Max Lugavere: Well, in this meta-analysis, no, aerobic is also, but in this in this meta-analysis, it looked at, you know, it looked at specifically resistance training. So I probably should have said specifically instead of exclusively, yeah. But, um, but yeah, I mean, it's it's super effective. It pushes fresh blood, oxygen, nutrients, glucose up to your up to your brain. It increases a protein called BDNF or brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which is sort of like a miracle grow protein for your brain. It helps to balance uh, neurotransmitters like glutamate and GABA, um, which can become disregulated. You know, they actually give drugs to help, you know, reduce excitotoxicity in the setting of Alzheimer's disease. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's it's a it's a really powerful disease modifying, um, uh, activity, you know, and it can be fun to do provided you're doing something that you enjoy.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I love it. I I'm I'm really into um, my strength training these days as well as zone two. I'm actually getting more into my zone two cardio, um, as well, like getting on the bike and doing runs and more so from the mindfulness benefits actually from the specific, um, uh, disease preventative effects as well. And what you were talking there about the glucose disposal routes into lean muscle mass. This is what I'm trying to get people to really think about of not just your muscles as being nice to look at, but also as sinks for glucose that otherwise is floating around in different areas like your fat cells, your liver cells. You want to increase the sort of saving account of your glucose by increasing your lean muscle mass. And maybe that has some sort of knock-on effect. I'm not too sure if there's any evidence around this about how this improves your brain's ability to utilize glucose as well. Because one of the, um, uh, things that I think we're now understanding about the dementia process is that these the brain cells are unable to take in glucose as a result of a disruption to GLUT1 receptors, I believe, in the brain.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. Exercise does increase, um, glucose metabolism in the brain. And the degree of insulin resistance in the body has been shown to be correlated, pretty strongly correlated to the degree of glucose hypometabolism in the brain. And so, yeah, you're right. In the in the Alzheimer's brain, glucose metabolism is diminished by about 50% with somebody who has Alzheimer's disease. But we can see that people who are genetically predisposed to developing Alzheimer's disease, almost across the lifespan, have a slightly reduced capacity to generate ATP from glucose. People that carry the apoE4 allele. Yeah. So it's, yeah, no, but you're right, that hypothesis is like dead on.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I'm uh, I'm excited about your documentary as well. You're doing, is it out at the moment or are you are you gearing up for it? Tell tell us a bit more about it.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, thank you. We're, um, so it's called Little Empty Boxes and people can see a trailer at littleemptyboxes.com. And it's a it's a film that follows my mom who had dementia, which is why I got into this. So I'm not a medical doctor, I'm not an academic scientist. I've learned on the job, so to speak. Um, and I'm always learning, but, um, I got into this because my mom had dementia and it was incredibly traumatic, you know, for me and my family. And, um, and so I followed her for, uh, a couple of years prior to her to her passing. And it's a really rare and intimate look into what dementia is like, which is now affecting more and more of us. Actually, I don't know if you know this, Rupy, but it's now the number one cause of death in the UK.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Max Lugavere: Which is shocking.
Dr Rupy: It is shocking, isn't it? Yeah. It's like a silent epidemic. People haven't really caught on to this. People most most people if you stop them in the street, they'll probably say, you know, rightly so, cardiovascular disease, maybe even cancer, but yeah.
Max Lugavere: It's insane. So, so the documentary, I mean, before I knew anything about nutrition and health, I was just a son who was trying to do the best by his mom and and and and help her to live as long and healthfully as possible. And so the film kind of tracks that journey, but in it, we have incredible interviews with Ivy League university researchers and actually the woman who um, coined the term type three diabetes, which I think is gaining more traction now as as one of these hypotheses as to why Alzheimer's develops. She's in the film. Um, her name is Suzanne de la Monte and yeah, so she talks about, she also has a master's in public health, so she talks about, you know, the the rising rates across all uh, demographics really, um, of of this condition. We've got uh, leading voices in the field of prevention, um, involved. And so, yeah, it's a film that I'm super excited about. I hope we find distribution in a way that allows us to get it out to as many people as possible. But for right now, people can go and and join the, we have like a mailing list. So whenever we have like news, we'll update that.
Dr Rupy: Little Empty Boxes. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. I'll definitely check that out. Man, um, I really appreciate you and uh, you know, we we were talking on your podcast about, um, impact and and how like what I'm trying to do is have as big as impact as possible. It sounds like you're in the similar trajectory when it comes to your documentary and the books and everything that you put out. Are there things that are on sort of your wish list of of feats or successes or goals that are like 5, 10, maybe even 20 years in the future that you want to try and achieve or you're just putting one foot in the front of the other, just trying to figure it out as you go along?
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I think it's the latter. I think it's I'm just I'm, you know, I live each day, you know, one at a time and, um, and I just hope to to I just hope, you know, I'm just trying to do the best that I can and and learn as much as I can and share as much as I can in a way that is as authentic and, um, and and and logical and reasonable and as uh, responsible, um, as I can and and yeah, I mean, I just I love creating content. I love, you know, gaining new insight and, um, and that's what I just I I hope to be able to continue to do. I mean, I just I feel very lucky. My mom's journey has given, I think, me, it's helped me see my what I believe to be my purpose in life. And so I feel very grateful that I get to do this and, I mean, connect with brilliant people such as yourself. I mean, one of the leading voices in health in the UK, I'm here sitting having a conversation with. I mean, it's it's incredible. Um, and so I feel very lucky and uh, and I'm I'm always so grateful to anybody who's embraced my ideas and I might not get everything right, but um, but I'm always learning and I try I I strive to do the best that I can. So hopefully that's worth something.
Dr Rupy: Mate, I very much appreciate you and you're you're doing some great stuff. I appreciate you and we need more people like you talking the talk and uh, and doing some awesome stuff like the documentary, the books and the content you put out. So keep it up, man. Appreciate it.
Max Lugavere: Thank you, bro. Thank you. It means a lot.
