Dr Uma: Thinking about it just from from bare bones, thinking about the type of salt you have, thinking about the spice cabinet you build out, but then thinking about really budget-friendly ways. And I think you've written about this and you you talk about it which is so important, because people assume that you can only eat for your brain health, your physical health if you're really wealthy. But you can buy dried beans, dried legumes, dried lentils. You can get even canned organic chickpeas for example, rinse them out and have a perfectly good meal by cooking them the right way. So I'd like people to lean into those things.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to The Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: On the show today, I catch up with Dr Uma, a Harvard-trained psychiatrist, professional chef, and nutrition specialist. Uma has been on the pod before where we talked about nutrition, OCD and anxiety. And on today's episode, we talk through practical tips on hydration for mental health and why it's important and what practical tips there are to drink more. We talk about how her views have actually evolved since writing The Food Mood Connection, a book I highly, highly recommend. It's a fantastic practical resource on how to eat for your brain. What the 80/20 rule is and the importance of balance and flexibility when eating well, and metabolic flexibility is a topic I think we need to dive into a bit more as well. What's in her cupboard and her fridge and some budget-friendly ways to eat well, I think we could all do with some of that. Spices that support brain health and what's next in the field of nutritional psychiatry, a burgeoning field, including things like psychobiotics, the ingestion of live microbes that potentially could modulate our behaviour. It's a fascinating read and a fascinating area of research and Dr Uma is really at the forefront of all of this. Remember, you can download The Doctor's Kitchen app for free to get access to all of our recipes with specific suggestions based on your health needs. There's a 14-day free trial and Android users, I am working very hard on creating an Android version. And remember, you can subscribe to the Eat, Listen, Read newsletter. Every week, I send you a recipe to cook, as well as some mindfully curated media to help you have a healthier, happier week. On to the podcast.
Dr Rupy: Uma, thank you so much. We get to meet in person.
Dr Uma: Finally.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, but there's no kitchen here, unfortunately. I would have loved to have cooked with you.
Dr Uma: We have to do it another time.
Dr Rupy: We'll do another time. Next time cooking. So you're in the UK.
Dr Uma: I am.
Dr Rupy: How long are you going to be here for?
Dr Uma: I'm just here for a week for this amazing conference where you are running a keynote and presenting and so am I. And it's a really wonderful experience because it's I hear the largest integrated and personalised medicine conference in the UK. So it's quite something. It's impressive to see people bringing this forward.
Dr Rupy: It's amazing. Yeah.
Dr Uma: I felt I had to support.
Dr Rupy: Oh, absolutely. It's, it's great just, I mean, I've been in this room pretty much the whole time, but going around and chatting to people on the stands and just hearing about some of the speakers and what they've been up to. I could just definitely feel the energy here and I feel, at least, you know, in our little bubble here that the sort of the movement and the message around integrated medicine is certainly moving forward. But you've been a pioneer for this for many years now, you know, your book is incredible. We've already done a podcast. Let's dive into some other topics that you might have built on, maybe things that you've changed your mind on or or perhaps haven't or added. I want to start off with hydration. I I saw a post that you put on recently on Twitter reminding people about hydration. Let's talk about hydration and the role of that with mental health and and well-being.
Dr Uma: Great. You know, it's something that many people overlook because although my field is nutritional psychiatry, well, you know, hydration is part of that. And in mental health, I've seen people develop panic attacks or worsening anxiety when they're not hydrated. Um, and it's something to just, it's part of my checklist that I've developed when I see people clinically. And I started to look into the research because I knew I was seeing it clinically. So it was one of those things that sort of went in reverse. Then I found that people had written about it, there was research. And there's also an association between dehydration and levels of depression. So I think just being hydrated and and making sure that you're drinking water is just good for your mental health. Um, and your metabolism. So I'm glad you asked about that because it's overlooked, but it also taps into something, Rupy, that I think you and I believe, which is sort of an integrative but a holistic level of care. Um, partly, you know, cultural backgrounds and maybe growing around growing up around spices and, you know, um, Ayurveda and things like that, really bring it together. And so I think we shouldn't forget exercise, hydration, mindfulness, meditation, all of it, but food is a big part.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm glad you bring up hydration because I think you're right, it is kind of overlooked. A lot of people don't really think to ask about it, particularly when it comes to, you know, people who might lack energy later on in the day or they feel they have some brain fog. You know, reminding yourselves to to drink regularly, as we're doing right now, is a very important thing. Do you have any tips to to sort of remind people about hydration status?
Dr Uma: So I do a few things. One is that, you know, now there are these very fancy, almost smart water bottles that will will tell you how much you're drinking. And for the person who struggles to to be refilling that glass of water, it actually works. So I usually suggest that people find a sustainable either glass or stainless steel bottle, um, and they refill it at work. If you're in a hybrid model, you know, make sure that you're checking yourself in terms of if it's say 16 ounces, you want to fill that at least four times during the day, um, which is the average size of our water bottles in the US. I'm not sure what the translation would be here. But try to do that. Um, if you are at work back full time, keep some sort of a reminder on your desk. Maybe it's an alarm, maybe you know that by lunchtime you ought to have checked off a few glasses. Some people still document it in their phone or they have a little little written um list that they keep. Then I like people to feel that they can make water interesting because as a chef, I love food and and everything we drink and eat to be delicious. So add in the berries, you know, and then eat the berries at the end of the day. Add in the slices of citrus fruit. Um, I've even seen water bottles where you put the piece of citrus at the bottom, a fresh piece. And you know, with lemon, even the lemon rind is good for you. So this is a way to keep yourself hydrated. Um, I try to, you know, stay with water. Another good one that I love is is mint, because fresh mint actually contains an antioxidant luteolin, and luteolin is associated with helping brain fog. So there's a nice one when you're feeling that, you know, afternoon dip and you're thinking I should have yet one more cup of coffee. You can, if you if you can tolerate caffeine is fine in, you know, coffee is fine in moderation. Caffeine is not always great for people. Um, coffee because of the number of polyphenols. But have a have a mint tea or add add the mint to your water.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Just to give you a little bit of a pick me up.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Mint, that's a great one. What what about um some of these hydration sachets or hydration mixes that people use, particularly after sports and endurance exercise that contain sugars, salts, maybe even fortified with things like magnesium. What are your thoughts on those?
Dr Uma: So I think it's with any of those um mixes or actual drinks that are sold in a bottle or something you add to water, you just have to watch for the sugar content because our bodies need sugar, but I think how, the quality of sugar we take in is important. So I have nothing against those mixes. In fact, we have some really great new ones coming out. Um, but at the same time, you want to make sure they're not loaded with sugar because quite often we we reach for a sports drink and even though it has the electrolytes, it also has a ton of added sugar. And that can offset the positive benefits. So just look at the balance. Try to find a version of the newer pods or the drink that has less sugar. But here's the thing, Rupy, you also can't go in the direction of artificial sweetness because those are disruptive to the gut. So it's tough for people. That's why adding in fresh berries or something like a whole food, a whole fruit may be a little bit better. Um, and then they have these other um electrolyte replenishing um powders which don't necessarily have sugar. And those actually, I think are great because they give you a little bit of sodium and they give you other things that replenish what you may have lost during um, you know, uh, during sweating and during the exercise. So those are okay, but often people get um, often people consume and are taking in more sugar than they realise.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Certainly those sports drinks, I think are loaded with fructose and we both know about the impacts of sugar sweet beverages on on things like uric acid levels that we've been hearing about. Exactly. Um, but but also the impact on on liver function. I I I wonder if there are any sort of thoughts on uh adding more salts to the diet as long as somebody isn't a salt sensitive hypertensive. Do you have any thoughts on on those?
Dr Uma: You asked me earlier about things that I've, you know, been thinking about since my book. And certainly with salt, I've realised, you know, I feel like it's important, again, we come back to that thought about balance. I think consuming enough salt is important for how our biochemical reactions work in the body. If you are a salt sensitive hypertensive, then you need to follow the directions of your doctor. But at the same time, you shouldn't necessarily exclude salt. In culinary school, it was one of the most important ingredients because I think chefs over salt things, but you know, um, but it is important for the flavour of food. So that that is something I feel people can really speak, it speaks to body intelligence and also consulting with their doctor. So you've got to find that balance. But one of the other things that I really have been rethinking, Rupy, since um writing my first book was that, you know, there's a lot more now about saturated fat, red meat, um, that, you know, there was a very seminal paper in 2020 that came out through the Journal of the American uh Cardiology Association that spoke about really rethinking saturated fats. And I think that at the very least, we need to include that in the conversation. It doesn't mean we need to eat steak every day. It doesn't mean that we should cook in butter all the time, but I think there needs to be a balance. Um, so I think that I now share in nutritional psychiatry has become so much more personalised now because of the gut microbiome being so unique. Now, you know, I I don't say to my patients, you have to eat just lean beef. You know, you can have steak, but here's the thing, eat it with lots of vegetables. If you can, get a better quality of the meat and balance that up. So that's one one real position if I were to write something again, I think I would want to bring that in.
Dr Rupy: I hope you do. I hope you write some more stuff. Yeah, because I think it's a great resource and I actually, I mean, we have it on our website, we recommend it as our sort of essential list of readings. I no, I think it I think it's brilliant. So, so sort of saturated fat, that those are very interesting. I I think also it plays into another concept that you're a big fan of, obviously being a chef, someone who enjoys food, the pleasure of food is so so integral to our our human experience. The 80/20 of of eating, you know, food is medicine, but still food is a source of pleasure as well. So talk to us about 80/20 and how you instigate that.
Dr Uma: Um, so I, as I sort of brought forward my work in nutritional psychiatry, I developed what I call pillars of nutritional psychiatry. And one of the pillars was really emanated from questions that I get. And I'll explain that in a second. So 80/20 is that 80% of the time we're trying our best, we're eating healthy meals, but 20% of the time life happens. You know, if you have kids, you might and you you might come across a cupcake as I say to people, you know, if you take your kids to a birthday party, if they're back in, you know, they're back in going to birthday parties these days. It's it's that kind of thing. You can't you can't punish yourself. You can't feel badly about it because we also know from research that, you know, when you feel emotionally distraught about something, it doesn't help your stress, it doesn't help other things. So that's important. So I like people to feel encouraged that they can eat more foods of different varieties and feel they have to eliminate, so eliminate foods or food groups unless they have an allergy and intolerance. So 80/20 captures a lot of that. But you know, the other thing that I help, I I try to share with my clients and um in my work is it's not necessarily about the food on your plate today or the scale, the number on your scale tomorrow. It's really about what you're going to do to change your relationship with food over time. Because if you're struggling with, you know, maybe over the pandemic, you you're eating that tub of processed ice cream every night, right? Or someone else is like, everyone in my family is eating chips or whatever it is. You know, it's it's taking that one thing and just tweaking it so that over time it becomes, you know, in chapter 11 of my book, I have a recipe made with for ice cream made with bananas. You can make it chocolate flavour, you can add in crunchy chocolate chips, you can do lots of stuff with it. But can we rethink that conversation? And the question that always comes up with the 80/20 rule is, you know, can I have cake on my birthday? And of course you can. You know, you should have a piece of cake. If you like cake, you should definitely have it because it's that one day is not going to make a difference. It's it's what you're doing the rest of the time that will balance your blood sugar, help your metabolic health, help your uric acid and all of those good things and also enjoy your life because if not, you're going to feel restricted. And what happens is when people are restricted, there's a boomerang effect because they don't eat any cake, they don't eat any of the ice cream and then at the end of the month, they buy two tubs or you know, they end up eating too much and then they feel bad.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, there's definitely a spiral to this and it's very easy to fall into that comfort eating. I mean, certainly during the pandemic, I was uh drinking a lot more alcohol, unbeknownst actually. Yeah, without realising it. Exactly. Yeah, because it was a thing that you do to unwind and it's just a way to. And you're at home. 100%. Yeah, absolutely. You need some source of enjoyment, but you know, I found other ways now outside of I barely drink these days. Um, I wanted to talk a bit about nutritional psychiatry as a as a broader term. We spoke on the podcast probably over a year ago now and and even in that short amount of time, I I feel that it's just become uh a lot more accepted for psychiatrists to to sort of lean into this concept. What has your experience been thus far when since your book came out and since you've been having more conversations with people in your profession?
Dr Uma: So, that's a great question, Rupy, and I thank you for asking it. You know, I think that my book, um, fortunately, did have a good effect in terms of bringing that conversation forward. I can't say that, you know, my colleagues are practicing that way. I really can't. I will say that my my colleagues who are GPs, internal medicine doctors in the US, functional medicine, um, integrative medicine, lifestyle medicine doctors are much more interested than the average everyday psychiatrist. But here's where a lot of my renewed mission beyond the book is really around the educational piece because I was thinking recently, as I was preparing my talk, a lot of people know what's unhealthy. Right? They know that tub of ice cream or the bag of chips. It's not, you know, what you should be eating. They have some sense of it. But implementing that is very hard. It's about habit. Um, it's about um how do we reverse those habits, change them even from the pandemic. But it's not that they don't know, but that conversation around food should be starting much sooner, right? And you know as doctors, we don't study nutrition. If we're interested, we have to find a way to study it elsewhere because we don't learn it in medical school. So I've been rethinking where the larger mission of my work should be. And I really feel it belongs in education of other healthcare practitioners and clinicians in order to move nutritional psychiatry forward. And so I'm working on that in a very active way and I feel as though it's something we'll achieve. It'll it'll take some while to create the infrastructure. But because I want doctors, whether they whatever specialty they are, or clinicians, whether they are nurses, pharmacists, dietitians, social workers, wherever it is, to be able to start having those conversations around, I understand you're taking these medications. Have you thought about lifestyle, diet, mindfulness, um, hydration, all of those things? Are you, are we having those conversations? Um, and I feel that rather than expecting people to know what they should know about food when they come into the doctor's office, how about we change that around and as clinicians, we start to have those conversations. And so I feel like it's very hard to change behaviour, but it starts with that conversation because if you educate a parent, they're going to take that home and feed their kids differently. Yes. You know. Um, and I think that it has to start somewhere. So I'm going to try that. I I feel it's important and.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, we should definitely talk about that in terms of the experiences that I've had uh in trying to teach medical professionals here in the UK. We've we've done a multi-pronged approach where we've we've gone into medical schools, we've instigated some programs there. We've also done a a postgraduate program as well where we do one-off workshops. And I think you'd be uniquely positioned uh to do this in in in America as well where you have the the chef skills, you have the obviously the knowledge and the clinical experience uh to apply that to nutritional psychiatry. And I think people are calling out for courses. You know, I get messages about a lot.
Dr Uma: Right. You're absolutely right, Rupy. And some of that, some of this really came into came about for two reasons. Um, you know, support from wonderful individuals like yourself and colleagues who wanted to bring this message forward and asking the questions, well, how can we learn and do more? And honestly, mainstream mental health, I I'll be the first to say, respectfully, will not do this for at least another decade. But there's a lot of hunger in clinicians of all kinds who want to do more, learn more. And there there aren't um in the US, there aren't courses at academic centres. A lot of um people, I I released my own course, it was very successful, but in the private sector, it's very hard to get those courses accredited. Um, you can, but it's a different process. So I decided, you know, a lot of people who attended, they were very happy. We got uh we got we had a robust um time with it. And and we might do it again. But I felt, you know what, the gap here is if I'm a clinician, you you I don't I think it works like this here. Every time you you um redo your license and renew it, we have to get our continuing education credits, right? Same thing. So I decided, well, that was a way to think about it because then clinicians are going to want to do it. And we can get it accredited. And that's, you know, fortunately, I have the support of my hospital behind me um in in doing this. So we'll see.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. I I think uh just for the listener, uh the the the CPD points or continuing professional uh development points, um are critical to do every single year and you you get to collect those points from different things, different different activities, attending a conference, going on a course, doing some self-reflective work, doing some uh MCQs, examinations, all the rest of it. So that would definitely fit the sort of criteria. And I think a lot of people would be interested in diversifying where they get their CPDs. Moving on to what listeners can do at home. I I I'm uh I'm always asked about uh pulling together a uh a cupboard of ingredients that people should have. Ingredients. So we're going to tap into the chef side of your brain now. So, so what kind of ingredients, what do we separate them? Like store cupboard ingredients that are non-perishable. What kind of things should should somebody have in their store cupboard when they're trying to think about uh preventative medicine, protecting their brain and mental well-being? And then we can move on to spices, which I know is both of our passions.
Dr Uma: Yes. No. So I was going to say, you know, with things that are non-perishable, one of the things that people overlook, right, are um are spices. Um, but before I get to that, I'll tell you, Rupy, you know, that one of the things I learned in culinary school was that you should use a pure form of salt. Okay, yeah. And it turns out that a lot of, now I don't know your your types of salt in the UK, but you you might know that much better. But in the US, I use uh kosher salt and it happens to be a really pure version of salt. And you've got to get used to the level of salt by cooking with it a little bit because our salt that comes in the canisters actually has added added kind of yucky ingredients in it and it's probably not good for us. So, um, it's also a little bit more salty. So thinking about it just from from bare bones, thinking about the type of salt you have, thinking about the spice cabinet you build out, but then thinking about really budget-friendly ways. And I think you've written about this and you you talk about it, which is so important, because people assume that you can only eat for your brain health, your physical health if you're really wealthy. But you can buy dried beans, dried legumes, dried lentils. Um, you can get even canned organic chickpeas for example, um, rinse them out and have a perfectly good meal by cooking them the right way. So I'd like people to lean into those things a little bit more. Um, nuts and seeds, you know, which are great for your brain. They have the short chain omega-3s, um, tons of fibre, tons of other nutrients you need. Those are good things to tap into, but other brain foods that are inexpensive are canned muscles, canned oysters, um, sardines, uh, salmon, and you can get pretty good quality ones. So don't feel you have to go and buy a whole salmon, which is probably, certainly in the US, it's very very costly, um, to just feed your brain. There are other ways to do that. Um, so for, you know, the things that you buy on a and buy and can store on your pantry, that's one way to go.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. And I think uh I did a series on Instagram where I was teaching people how to cook uh their lentils and and legumes and everything from scratch, right? Because a lot of people don't know like, oh okay, I've got to soak it and then I've got to I can boil it and then I can add bicarbonate, it can make it softer. So, you know, all these different sort of things that I was taught, you know, growing up in an Indian household is just the norm. I remember, you know, my grandmother doing it. I watched my mom do, we used to get these lentils and she would put it out on a big platter and she would painstakingly pick out the stones, you know. Get out the stones. Yeah, yeah. I mean, luckily, I don't think we have to do that anymore because they're better. Right, the way that they are produced is a little bit better, but but it's it's so interesting you say that, Rupy. I've been visiting with family and I've introduced them to the Instant Pot. Okay. Now I have no association other than using one. Uh, but, you know, my grandmother, my mom, they would firstly, they'd go through the tray of lentils, pick out the stones, and then they'd soak it. So it was a whole process by the time you got to the dal at dinner. But they would do it every single day because that way the family was well fed. But, um, the Instant Pot, if it's it's certainly an expensive piece of piece to buy, but I will just say you can go from dry lentils with water, always rinse them, with water to a softened um dal-like consistency or soup consistency in three to five minutes with the with the very fast pressure cooker. And that's a time-saving thing if say you have a large family and you say you're making a stew, say you're cooking meats that could be done that way as well, or just lentils, you know, which are super nutritious, right? And so, yeah.
Dr Rupy: And less gas, I guess, as well, if you're using. Yeah.
Dr Uma: I I think so. And you know, one of the, um, so there are different, there's the asafetida powder, you know, we use culturally. Then there are, I think soaking and rinsing helps as well. So it's it's all important.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Let's talk about some other store cupboard ingredients. So, um, you're a big fan of whole grains, uh, things like uh different types of rice, different types of bread. What kind of, yeah, what kind of ingredients do do you do you look for in that sort of category? And and what are the nutrients that are specifically supporting our our brains?
Dr Uma: So, in the conversation on mental health, I am careful about whole grains because they're very important for our microbiome, but a lot of individuals with even if they don't have a full-blown mental health diagnosis may struggle with weight issues. So we want to be careful that the glycaemic load is something you're paying attention to. So I like grains like quinoa because they're high protein and high fibre. Um, I like um things like depending on the oats, if you're going to have oats, have them steel cut, have them be portion controlled about them because they can become calorie dense and affect over time some of your metabolic health. So you want to be a little bit careful about balancing it, but I'm not by any means saying don't eat whole grains, if anything, add them in. Um, and so I think that, you know, fibre is probably one of the most important things we get from them. Now in the US, we know that, you know, people are fascinated by their numbers of grams of proteins. But we actually need more fibre. So this whole grains are a really easy way. And I want people to think a little bit out of the box and be curious about things like spelt and farro. Um, you know, add them into soups, learn to, you can always find a video online to learn how to cook something these days, but add those in as well as um the other grains, you know, that everyone is is used to.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And is it specifically uh those whole grains with the husks that contain the complex B vitamins? Is that the complex?
Dr Uma: So so so that's definitely part of it and it's a good a good way to get some of the B vitamins in. But what I find is sometimes people don't always know quite what to do with them. So I try to stay with things that usually like with quinoa, you it's one part, one part to maybe sometimes two part depending on the type of quinoa and you can kind of steam it and cook it and then you can flavour it with other stuff. Um, but you know, it's it's I think when we can get them in a whole grain form, it's much better.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Let's move on to spices. I think we're both like sort of, you know, wanting to go. So in terms of your uh your your spice uh cupboard mix, which which ones would be your personal favourites or ones that you feel that were are easiest to utilize across different cuisines with some of those health benefits as well that we know from their phytonutrient profile?
Dr Uma: So, I think, you know, it's it this is a tough one for me because culturally I grew up around Indian spices like yourself. And so I'm most used to those, but I I also love, you know, French cuisine and I I love lots of different types of cuisine. And I think that if you, if you for yourself, um, so, you know, my spice cabinet is a little out of control because I I want to have everything that I can get my hands on. And then I learn about like an Ethiopian spice and then I want to make it myself. So I might have to make my own berbere or whatever it is. But, you know, I think if we're talking to your listeners, think about things, the flavours you like. Do you like Italian food? Then lean into the, you know, oregano. If you um if you like Indian cuisine, then you want a basic turmeric with a pinch of black pepper for your brain. Um, you want, you know, coriander, cumin, some form of chili, uh a chili powder that is uh flavourful if you like spice, and you want some of those basics. If you like Mexican cuisine, you know, dried Mexican oregano, super rich in antioxidants, including luteolin, great for brain fog. So, you know, think about flavours you like and build from there. Because a bottle of spice, um, if it's dried, you can you only need to use half the amount that you would compared to the fresh fresh herb. And that's one thing. Secondly, it'll last you about a year. So find five to 10 that you really like and start to practice with those. And where you can, things like ginger or garlic, use those fresh and add those, add those in and use dried for the ones you don't get easily.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Are there specific call out spices that you think are particularly useful for brain health? I know you've mentioned um uh dried oregano or oregano as we say over here uh for the luteolin and some of the other uh phytochemicals you could find. Are there are there any others in a similar vein?
Dr Uma: Sure. So so turmeric with the black with the pinch of black pepper. So turmeric contains um curcumin, which is the active ingredient, and it is brought alive or made more bioavailable to the brain and body with the addition of black pepper, which is which contains piperine. So piperine and black pepper interact. So it's very important to add it. And if you don't cook with it, um add it to a soup, a tea, a smoothie, you know, get used to it over time. The other one is, you know, cayenne, which is basically what you find in chili pepper, um has great brain benefits, can lift your mood, um can be clarifying in terms of thinking, but you have to be able to tolerate a little bit of spice. Saffron has a significant amount of evidence um associated with improvement of depression. But you and I both know when we say make a biryani or um a dish with saffron, you don't use much of it and it's expensive. So it's one of the few few times I say, if you're struggling with this condition and you want something more on the natural spectrum, speak to your doctor about a good quality, clean uh saffron supplement because there's good evidence associated with depression. Um, so those those are a few to get you started. And then there are things like um rosemary, which are associated, you know, um around some things with cognition. So, you know, adding adding them in can be pretty beneficial for you if you, but but start with ones that you like.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And build build from there.
Dr Uma: Exactly. Build those.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I I think those are, I mean, I've I've got some tips now in my head. I've got oregano, I've got mint, I've got um uh the saffron and uh and rosemary as well. I've heard some things about uh parsley and sage. Would that be in the same spectrum of cognitive enhancing herbs?
Dr Uma: They they are, parsley and sage are definitely good. I they know they have luteolin. Um, I I know that rosemary stands out for cognitive stuff and turmeric stands out for cognitive stuff. Um, but these are good fresh um healthy ingredients. So the fact that they are plants and herbs and they are dried spice, they contain rich antioxidants. So my feeling about them is like, for example, Rupy, we're not at the stage of knowing everything about food dosing in mental health. But I say to people, if I'd much rather than eat at a fast food restaurant, you start that you can start to include foods that are whole foods and healthier because they're going to benefit you. So they might benefit your microbiome. They might have antioxidants that are going to benefit you. They might have these plant polyphenols. So even though we may not know that you have to have a teaspoon of it or two, we're eating, why not add them in? And and see what we learn from them as we as we get more done.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I I'm certainly getting the impression um from a lot of people that uh getting a diverse spice mix can add to the uh the plant diversity of your your weekly meals as well as, you know, but I I always think about it in the context of your foundational layer is certainly the the whole foods that you consume and then everything else is sort of like an add-on. Talking about add-ons, we talk a bit about supplements as well on this, vitamin D, omega-3, iron for certain people as well. Are there food-based supplements that you're excited about? I know I get asked a lot about Ashwagandha, berberine. It seems like there's so many. I mean, there's a whole bunch on the shelf.
Dr Uma: So I get asked about Ashwagandha seems to be having its, it's it's funny because it's been around a long time. It's part of Ayurveda and I knew it as a kid, but but you know, the the there is a good amount of evidence for um Ashwagandha in anxiety, but it's it's a it's bitter. So most people, most companies I should say, put it into a supplement for that reason. Um, so I I think it's definitely one of one of the things that people should pay attention to. But because in the United States, supplements are not regulated by the FDA, I always just say to people, have that conversation with your doctor so that he, she knows what you're taking, um, and that, you know, it's safe for you to take it. Um, I think I've said this to you before, you know, it's people know that grapefruit is healthy, but grapefruit um is a is a fruit that interacts with liver enzymes and is important in certain individuals on certain medications, especially in mental health. So, so it's just, I'm not just saying, oh, speak to your doctor, there there are reasons that, you know, you one might need to be careful about.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah. Uma, you're always ahead of the trends. Uh, you know, you're ahead of the curve when it comes to nutrition, uh, within your clinical field. What what kind of things are you seeing on the horizon that might not have as much evidence base today, but you you're kind of bullish on in terms of they might come into sort of your practice, if it's not already, in the next 5, 10 years perhaps?
Dr Uma: So I'm very excited about psychobiotics. Okay, yeah. Um, you know, there's there's certainly uh research going on right now and some that's already started and.
Dr Rupy: And what's a psychobiotic? Sorry for the listener.
Dr Uma: Of course. So this is really the use of um almost using the the gut microbes to for positive mental health. And it's using food to interact with those microbes and see if we can find alternatives to things like selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors over time. So in other words, it's not that people won't need psychiatric medications, but are there more solutions? And there there are companies and and um researchers that are doing more of this work and I'm most excited about that because I think it'll, like with spices, provide one more solution for people.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I it's it's interesting a lot of the research coming out of um APC, University of Cork, uh and a few other gut centres, I believe the Quadram in the UK at least anyway. Um, they're looking at this this potential for live microbes to be consumed and improving your gut microbiota with the knock-on effect on probably general well-being as well as uh mental well-being as well. But it's a very exciting field.
Dr Uma: It it is. You know, general well-being so important related to the gut. But if we could tweak it a little bit more to add in that mental health piece where COVID has brought, COVID has sort of uncovered that silent pandemic, which is mental health. And um, you know, in the UK, I've been watching some of the news and I see in a positive way, I know the situation is sad, but in a positive way, a lot of focus on child mental health and teen mental health. And I think it's it's really key um in the messaging for us to find more solutions across the board. Certainly in the US, um prescriptions for children are higher than I would like to see. And I think if we found more solutions through food, psychobiotics, uh synbiotics and all of these ways that we can change the conversation about how we're all eating a little bit, not drastically, but just a little bit, um, I think it could could make a difference.
Dr Rupy: Brilliant. Uma, you're always a a pleasure to talk to and I'm sure you're going to be very much part of our movement. So I really appreciate your work and uh I hope to promote your courses and all the other stuff that you're going to do for clinicians in the future.
Dr Uma: I would love that, Rupy. I'd love you to participate and and always enjoy talking to you. It's always wonderful and you're such a leader here in the UK and I can see that. You're like the most popular guy at the conference. I mean, I flew across the pond and all the women want to shake your hand.
Dr Rupy: Well, I'm sure you're going to be very popular after all your talks as well. But thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
Dr Uma: Thank you for having me.
