Can ayurveda improve your health with food, herbs and daily routines? | Dr Vijay Murthy

Dr Rupy: There is a fascinating ancient system of medicine called Ayurveda originating in India over 3,000 years ago that's helped millions tune into their bodies through simple food, daily rhythms and plants. I've grown up thinking it was just a set of beliefs and traditions, but my guest today really challenged me and revealed that Ayurveda is actually a codified system of experiments documented and debated, written in Sanskrit text. Dr Vijay Murthy, an internationally acclaimed integrative physician who blends Ayurveda with modern evidence-based medicine, has got over 30 years of clinical experience and regularly publishes in peer-reviewed journals. And it's phenomenal that these ancient practices that we unpacked today actually mirror a lot of what modern science confirms about gut health, lifestyle medicine and nutrition. I was grossly sceptical of the entire subject, but I hope that this conversation will expand your knowledge of traditional medicine and reframe how you look at Ayurveda. Dr Vijay Murthy, why don't you give us a like a 101 of Ayurveda for our audience?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Ayurveda is really about understanding our chronobiology. Because Ayurveda recognises that we either can adapt well with cycles of light and darkness, or we can maladapt to these cycles. That's why Ayurveda's way of choosing your diet, how many times to eat, how much to eat, how to lead your lifestyle, what kind of exercises to do, how much sleep should you get, how much of water should you drink, when should you drink your water, what kind of herb should you take, all of that is about how do we align ourselves with our cycles. The cycle can be our own life cycle, like childhood, young adulthood, middle age, old age, or it's the cycles of time, like the seasons. Because Ayurveda developed in tropical climate or subtropical climates as well, there are six seasons there, which includes monsoon and early winter and late winter. Unlike the west where we have four seasons. Because the transition of seasons in Indian subcontinent is not as stark as in the west, because of where India is positioned in terms of the latitude. And so it's living in accordance to the changes that happen in the seasons. And also Ayurveda greatly emphasises that if you are living in a certain geographical area, your diet has to change to adapt to that geographical area. What I find very interesting like here in the UK is people are still eating dal and chawal because they think that's Ayurvedic. No, we live in a very cold country compared to India. And if you're eating dal and chawal, it's not going to be nourishing, not from an Ayurvedic perspective, maybe from a cultural perspective. So Ayurveda really encourages how we need to be responsive to the changes in our environment, our geography, climate, our own age. So it's very logical.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes a lot of sense, particularly with the the mindset of chronobiology, you know, when we think about cycles, like you said, you have your life cycle, seasons, the day, but also the menstrual cycle. I mean, in Ayurveda is is that something I'm assuming?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Absolutely. See, in Ayurveda, when it comes to the menstrual cycles, again, the dietary recommendations which are there for first half of the monthly cycle and middle of the monthly cycle, you know, where ovulation happens, to second half, the luteal cycle, there are different kinds of foods and seeds and liquids that have been recommended as to how to. What is fascinating is, you know, we probably can never say that, you know, there was any scientific understanding from a modern biochemical parameters. However, see, science is a language. You know, even what we do today as scientists is we try to measure what we observe by using parameters which help us validate it. And the same thing was true even in humans who have come before us, particularly if I think about the scholars of Ayurveda, even if you're looking at hundreds or thousands of years ago, they had very acute observational skills and a recognition of patterns. So recognition of pattern and repeatability of it and how do you influence positive outcomes is nothing novel. It's always been there in human history. It's just that Ayurveda has codified it in Sanskrit, whereas today we have even better possibility because we can even measure it.

Dr Rupy: When you said hundreds of thousands of years, you mean thousands of years ago.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Rupy: Great. Let's talk a little bit about the actual system of Ayurveda at the moment, as it is today, or perhaps when you think it was in its best form in recent times. How many herbs have we updated it now to? I mean, you mentioned 8,000 years ago was 200, which is a large amount in my in my opinion. What are we looking at now? What are the systems that have broken through and and how would you sort of describe the the systems that we have on a very sort of broad level? I know it can get very, very specific.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah. So, there's what is called Ayurvedic pharmacopoeia. And Ayurvedic pharmacopoeia has very widely examined 2,000 to 2,600 herbs. Wow. But if you look at the whole Ayurvedic classics and tradition, there are about 16,000 plants that are used within the context of health. Wow. Regionally from various different parts of India. And what is interesting is, you know, many of these Ayurvedic herbs have become quite popular.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Like turmeric, Ashwagandha, or Shatavari, Brahmi, many, these terms, although they are all Sanskrit terms, I think anywhere internationally, we do kind of sense some kind of familiarity with it if I mention Ashwagandha.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: But what is interesting is for each of these plants which are truly therapeutic or nutritious, nutritional, there are several subspecies which are not nutritious, which do not have that therapeutic benefit, which are used as adulterants.

Dr Rupy: Oh, okay. So like excipients or things that can help with the

Dr Vijay Murthy: Not excipients, you know, it's more like if something is sold as Ashwagandha, it may not be Withania somnifera.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: It could be a subspecies of Withania.

Dr Rupy: Right.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Which can be called Withania somnifera, but it isn't. So that's where, you know, Ayurveda gets a bad name when we need to understand that the diversity of plant world is so huge that one needs to have that knowledge of how to identify those plants and how to extract or process the plants to get the best benefits. What is interesting for me, like in India, see now hormonal health anywhere in the world is very topical. Obviously, post-COVID, we see a lot of hormonal imbalances, not just during perimenopause and menopause, it gets worse during that time, but even at other times. And people are looking for herbs that can help. And they look for something like Shatavari, which is Asparagus racemosus. But I went to India just two weeks ago and I was in a herbarium, they have about 35 varieties of Shatavari and of that you can only use one for its actual benefits.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Gosh. And imagine when there is so much demand and less supply, a lot of things can be called that particular herb. And this is true with spices as well. It's like, you know, all black pepper is not the same black pepper. All cardamom is not the same cardamom. So one needs to have that expert knowledge in order to identify what is true, what's the right kind of plant, right kind of herb, right kind of spices.

Dr Rupy: In terms of what I believe people have come across with Ayurveda, it's discussions around doshas or doshas, particular routines as well, and some of the things that we've already talked about with eating with the seasons as well. Perhaps that's part of the routine discussion. Can we talk touch briefly about doshas and how that actually intersects with the personalisation of Ayurveda versus the sort of broad stroke principles of Ayurveda?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah. See, doshas is a fantastic concept that I would say is the contribution of Ayurveda even to our modern realities because doshas help us in understanding our individuality. See, Ayurveda, much like the basic units of any scientific system, doshas are the basic functional units of understanding Ayurveda. But it can also be applied to understanding the personality or the phenotype or the psychophysiological makeup of any individual as doshas. And there are three, Vata, Pitta and Kapha. So because in ancient Indian Ayurvedic systems, they understood human existence, behaviour, biology, health in close connection to how nature worked. So it uses this concept of the five elements called Panchamahabhutas. Air, fire, water, ether and earth. These are classic elements, you know, not the one that we study in the periodic table. And a combination of air and ether, which are the lighter kind of classical elements, they are termed Vata. And a combination of fire and water, its expression is seen as Pitta. And a combination of earth and water, which are the more dense elements, is considered Kapha. So if you're considering Vata, Pitta and Kapha, see Vata is very sensitive and it's excitable. It's light, it's dry. Pitta is fiery. So Pitta can be reactive. Pitta when not balanced can create inflammation. And you can see Pitta manifesting just as Vata in one's personality, in one's function as well. So Pitta is often seen as the fiery dosha. Vata is seen as the more, you know, light, dry, windy, like more fickle, sensitive. And Kapha is earth and water, which is very dense. So we have these doshas. Talk to me a bit about how we assign people to them.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Usually what we see is a combination.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Very rarely we find extreme Vata, extreme Pitta or extreme Kapha.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And the formation of Vata, Pitta or Kapha types of doshas, which in Sanskrit is called Prakriti, which means nature. And that's the nature's blueprint of that person. So what is interesting about Vata, Pitta, Kapha Prakriti is that it is not based on genetics alone. It is based on the environment, it could be physiological, biochemical, psycho-emotional or circumstantial environment at the time of conception. So it really is something which is very unique because it's not just genetics, it's not just hereditary aspect. And today we know that, you know, if the mother's gut health or gut microbiome is of a certain type during the time of conception around that, it has certain features which are passed on to the foetus. I'm not just saying it's just gut microbiome, but Ayurveda Prakriti really looks at how all of the environmental factors, paternal, maternal, the uterine and the mother's nutrition, psycho-emotion can play a role into what kind of a person the baby becomes. And that pattern is carried throughout life. And that's what Vata, Pitta, Kapha is. And you can recognise features of Vata, Pitta, Kapha by their physical characteristics, psycho-emotional characteristics, their preferences for food, lifestyle, activities. So with Vata, Vata is generally described as those, you know, who have difficulty in gaining weight despite eating well. So these are the ones who have a very fast metabolism.

Dr Rupy: The ones that are envied by a lot of people.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yes, yeah, but except for those who are Vata.

Dr Rupy: Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Because, you know, those who have a bit of excess weight, they always envy those who are naturally thin. But those who are naturally thin, really, they envy those who can put on weight. So, and Vata is, they're very excitable. They're very impressionable as well. But then they don't stick to it. So Vatas are the ones where, let's say they listen to a podcast and it's all about plant-based nutrition, they are the ones who are going to sign up to become plant-based for the next six months, but they probably will stick to it for about a week. So because by the time that next week comes, you know, they might have heard about something about carnivorism. So Vatas are very curious, they're excitable, but they find it difficult to stick with anything.

Dr Rupy: Gotcha.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Because they get bored very quickly.

Dr Rupy: Gotcha. Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And if you can think of, you know, this kind of sensitivity but inability to allow enough time to adapt to it on a psycho-emotional level, the same thing is true with their digestion and other function as well. Like they are very sensitive to foods. They might respond positively to a certain food, but if their environment changes, if they haven't slept well, or if they have jet lag, or they're travelling, then the same food for which they responded well can actually create intolerances. So Vata is they're very active, they tend to be lean, they're really good at sprinting or not so good at actually building muscles or weightlifting. Their sleep tends to be very erratic. They are light sleepers in general, and you know, if you're looking at Vata individuals when they wear their, you know, various wearable devices for their sleep measurement, you see that they'll not have, they'll have woken up several times during night. Their REM is shorter and their deep sleep is also, you know, not so good. So Vata tends to be more sensitive to temperature changes, particularly they are cold intolerant. And they tend to have more of a tendency towards constipation. You know, I kind of just outside the studio, I looked at you have this Bristol stool chart. That's a very good way to. See, sleep, elimination, these are classic indicators of our circadian health. And if one is not able to have proper elimination on a regular basis, you are generally looking at a Vata person. So that's Vata. And their interests are, they're very creative. Vata love to create, they think outside the box. They can be fantastic actors, singers, entertainers, they're good at being stand-up comedians. So Vata has a lot of energy, but the energy does not sustain for too long. They get very exhausted. So Vata can be fantastic when it comes to raising up to performing, but soon after that, they will be so exhausted that they've given everything to it. So they're not very calculative in how they use their energy. That's the kind of sense that you get from Vata.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And Pitta on the other hand, they are, they have more of these fiery qualities. And Pittas are strategic. So when you look at the look of a Pitta person, over a period of time, you know, I'm not talking about those who have put an effort to change their body shape or, they generally are medium built and they are, they have a lot more symmetry in the way they are. And, you know, if a Pitta person goes to a gym, probably you'll see that if they're doing the right exercises, their all their muscles respond equally. But whereas, you know, when I think of myself as a mostly Vata Pitta person, like, okay, there are certain muscles which respond better, others don't. So Vata has that kind of asymmetry. Whereas Pittas, everything is more on the whole responsive. But Pitta characteristics are such that they're very sharp and they're very analytical and they can be very critical. They can be mostly, you know, if you think of Vata and Pitta psycho-emotionally, Vatas are critical towards themselves. Pittas are usually are critical towards others. Not so much about themselves. They feel they know it and they are the best and they, I mean, they naturally tend to have greater conviction about themselves. And, you know, that's not necessarily because of their influence around them. It's it's their nature. They think, yeah, actually, what I think, I think is right. So they often challenge others because they tend to disagree more readily. And their metabolically, they are very precise in the way they convert energy. So in terms of their activity as well, they're very determined, they're very sharp. They achieve what they want, whether it is physical or in their profession, in their life. But the downside of Pitta is that they tend to burn out. You know, like in classic Ayurvedic times, if one were to be chosen for a certain type of job, they would have considered their Prakriti. Pittas would have been more like the ministers and warriors, where you need that physical strength and or intellectual strength. Digestion wise, Pittas, they tend to have actually quite a reactive digestive system. For example, acidity, reflux, inflammation. So Pittas are more reactive.

Dr Rupy: I was going to just talk a bit more about doshas here because I think people listening to this, particularly medics are going to be like, Rupy's lost it. You know, we're talking about doshas and I think the the pushback that a lot of people have around Ayurveda in general is how can you assign categories and traits for people into just three buckets? You know, isn't isn't that quite limited? And what where is the evidence base behind actually assessing one's dosha?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, absolutely. See, there are ways to measure or there are ways to look at objective measures for phenotypical differences. So essentially, see in medicine now, particularly in precision medicine, let's say about chemo, we do really look at the genetic differences, right? And from an Ayurvedic perspective, if you're looking at Vata, Pitta and Kapha, then these are phenotypes of individuals. But then when I'm describing it like how it is described in classical Ayurvedic textbooks, like, okay, this is their body type, their mind type, it does sound like, okay, I'm looking at some astrological science like Chinese, you know, animal sign or zodiac signs. But it is not true from an Ayurvedic perspective when you are looking at it, you are actually trying to understand the physiological differences. And there is a lot of research that's been done on this area. Is it really something which makes it interesting to classify people into three different categories or does it really have any relevance scientifically? So a 2008 study which showed that our gut microbially, like certain individuals or a certain population subset, they have less ability to produce short chain fatty acids and they have dominance of certain types of commensal bacteria. And there are very strong correlations between those who are assessed as Vata individuals with that of their physiological or, you know, even blood markers. And in Pitta, the research, there are several research, but one of this research shows that they have more of inflammation related gut microbial pattern. And also their tendency to develop hypertension, cardiovascular risk is also greater in those who are Pitta. And those who are Kapha, they tend to have gut microbiome which extracts more energy from the same nutrients and tends to store it as fat. So objectively measuring phenotypes has been an exercise which is been a very interesting field of research over the last 10 to 15 years. So we can see a statistically significant association between classical understanding of doshas as Vata, Pitta and Kapha and their biological markers.

Dr Rupy: This is really interesting to me because I don't think I'm aware of this body of research trying to assess the or trying to map the classical categories of dosha against, I want to say this in quotes here, but more modern investigations of health, whether that be microbial diversity, inflammation markers, sleep assessment using wearables. And what I'm hearing is the classical categories of dosha map quite nicely with some of these more modern scientific methods of classifying, you know, short chain acid, short chain fatty acid producers, for example, or poor converters of short chain fatty acids. And it can't be explained by confounders either, like, okay, if you're Kapha, you're more likely to be overweight, hence why you're probably going to have this microbial picture. It can't be explained by those confounders.

Dr Vijay Murthy: I mean, that's all the more reason why we need to be using modern biomarkers as a way to understand or confirm if our classical Ayurvedic Prakriti typing is appropriate or not. Because today, those of us, you know, who are focused on our body or health, we can introduce conditions which can shift our body to look a certain way.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So for an untrained eye, it's very easy to say, oh, this person is Vata. Maybe they are actually Kapha. Or the other way around. For instance, you know, if you're looking at a sumo wrestler, how can all sumo wrestlers be Kapha? Sumo wrestlers may have Vata in them. So biomarkers and, you know, key observations are equally important in understanding. That's where, you know, I would say, when we just go into some questionnaire which has maybe 10 questions or 20, or somebody just trying to take the pulse and saying that this is what your Prakriti is, is a great disservice to the whole concept of what doshas are. In fact, even within the Ayurvedic classics, it says that even if you are going to assess somebody as Vata, Pitta, Kapha, make sure that you have considered other influences such as their diet, their lifestyle, the geographical influences in making sure that you are not mis-assessing them. So, yeah, certainly, I think, you know, it's unfortunately, this whole discussion about doshas is more it's become like a dinner conversation topic. You know, like you socialise and you say, oh, I do Ayurveda or somebody says, I'm interested in Ayurveda and they ask, oh, what type of, you know, dosha am I? In a way, yeah, it's nice that somebody is interested in it. But can you actually over just a dinner conversation say, yeah, you're Vata, Pitta, Kapha or what's the relevance of it? So certainly, I think it is not Ayurveda which is illogical about understanding doshas. It's how we have diluted it so much.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. It's a little bit like I can also say, oh, when I look at you, you must be O positive or you are B positive. How is it ever possible to really tell? It's it's interesting that actually, I think it's a very good picture to paint across a conversation at a dinner table, you know, when you're chatting with your friends. Even modern medicine or even modern psychiatry can be pervaded in a in a way that is a disservice to the scientific literature. So when someone says, you know, oh, I'm a bit ADHD or I think I've got, you know, these particular traits or I'm type A, you know, there is a body of research going behind how we diagnose some of these neurodivergent orders, mental health conditions. And for someone to suggest that you can easily diagnose a condition, I think is a disservice to psychiatry. In the same way, it's a disservice for someone to say, you look a bit Vata to me, or like you've got Vata traits, you're probably Vata just based on like a very short conversation, is a disservice to, you know, the traditions and the practice and actually the evidence-based process of of Ayurveda that I'm learning about now.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, that that's true because what's the purpose, you know, if I'm going to just kind of tell you, oh, you look more Pitta. What is the context? We don't do that in our medical conversations. We don't say, oh, I think you may your, you know, CT calcium score could be high. Check it, you know, like it sounds like a medical medium. In the true application of any system, you know, that's meant for, let's say, human health, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't expect one to be so flippant about the way they try and make these assessments within a very short period of time. I don't see the value for it. If somebody asks me what Prakriti am I, I'm going to ask why, why do you want to know it and what's the context?

Dr Rupy: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I it's it's the same thing I hear within the nutrition world. It's, you know, oh, I'm trying to lose weight. Oh, you should go carnivore. Or, you know, I I'm inflamed. Oh, you should try keto. I've heard really good things about keto. It's it's the narratives, you know, kind of spread and disperse and, you know, I personally believe a ketogenic diet can be therapeutic, but it's definitely not something that I would recommend in the first instance over an anti-inflammatory or plant forward diet, you know, for someone who might be having inflammatory issues, whatever the root cause of that might be. It might not be diet, it might be something else. So.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Even doshas, if you're looking at, it is a one of the many tools that is there for an Ayurvedic clinician to understand the person. Because one of the key concepts of Ayurveda or any good medical assessment is we want to understand the type of person who has the condition in as much as we want to understand what condition they have, medical condition. I think it's William Osler who told that it's more important to know what kind of a person has the disease than to know what disease the person has. And that concept is true in Ayurveda is it is important to assess what illness, what disease, diagnosis, but try also understand the person who has it. And doshas is a way to understand that. You know, it is not a way to actually categorise the entire human population into three types.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. That's definitely not the purpose of it. Let's expand beyond doshas then actually. You mentioned there are other tools, you know, that are used in parallel or in, you know, to complement some of these categorisations that can be useful when it comes to personalising what treatments we might be giving for ailments within Ayurveda. What are the other things or tools that we tend to use?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Digestive function because Ayurveda really looks at, you know, gut as the basis which determines or gut function determines the rest of the person's health. In fact, in the classical Ayurveda, there is a, there's a quote in Ashtanga Hridaya is Roga sarvepi jayante mandagnau sudaram uttarani cha. So Roga sarvepi jayante mandagnau is all illnesses begin with an impairment in the gut, including the ones which lead to organ failure. Like Udara in Sanskrit is ascites. You know, we know that like when there's, you know, congestive cardiac failure or kidney failure, ultimately or cirrhosis, like there will be ascites. So Ayurveda looks at from very simple things like constipation to organ failure, you need to really understand that they are the beginnings of these are rooted in one's poor gut health. And so Ayurveda really looks at understanding a concept or utilises a concept in understanding a person which is called Agni. Agni in Sanskrit is literally the fire.

Dr Rupy: The fire. Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Okay. And what it refers to is the functional intelligence in an individual is Agni. And that functional intelligence can begin with understanding one's digestive patterns. Like do, what we see is that some people have a far better gastric clearance or it's more efficient. I'm sure, you know, we know that it's not just the passage of the food, but it's also the passage of the gut microbiome or the microbiome in general that determines the outcome of digestion and assimilation. Because as we know that our gut microbial cells, they almost equal the human cells, but then their DNA material is, they outnumber the human DNA material. So Ayurveda definitely had an understanding of the importance of gut health because, you know, this is the most vulnerable and yet very resilient organ system that has very direct exposure to the environment. At least skin has a barrier, whereas the gut barriers are even multi-layered, much like the skin, but even more complex. So Ayurveda really tries to understand if somebody has a Vata type of digestion, which is, you know, where they are more likely to snack. I mean, we now can study, right? Like there are some people who have these snacking genes. You know, they are grazers, like they can't just have one good meal or two good meals, they need to keep eating. And Ayurveda looks at, you know, if somebody has a Vata type of and and they tend to have more of constipation. That's because their gastric emptying may not be very efficient. You know, like how we think about the microbial motor complex, which keeps. That's where Ayurveda says like, if you are having a Vata type of digestion, then that you should really be having ginger tea instead of just water. Because we now know that scientifically that gingerols can actually help in improving gut motility. These are prokinetics. They keep the gut moving better, more efficiently. And Pittas are like Ayurveda looks at, you know, do you have a Pitta type of indigestion or digestion? For instance, you know, not everybody may have established hyperacidity, but they may have signs of not really being able to have foods which are acidic or spicy or they tend to have more of these reflux. So these are more the Pitta type where actually we also see a lot of inflammatory changes. For instance, Pitta types will also have a lot of intolerance to high histamine containing foods because it starts to, you know, create hives. And that's why like Pittas are described as those who have very sensitive skin, which can become red. So Kaphas are more who may have more of a tendency for fungal overgrowth, who may have tendencies for candida. And that's why Ayurveda looks at Kapha digestive system as something which is cold and damp. I mean, what they mean by cold and damp is that, you know, they tend to be more forgiving to microbial growth, their systems. So Ayurveda also looks at when understanding the person, their response to physical activity. Like those who have a greater tendency to produce inflammation after exercise, these are the Pittas. And those who are naturally, you know, they can be more, they have a greater aerobic capacity, you know, that would be more of Vata. So Ayurveda looks at different systems, like digestive system, their sleep, sleep patterns, their resilience. And see, stress is a very important thing that Ayurveda also considers.

Dr Rupy: I definitely see the the utility of doshas in that respect prior to having genomic testing, right? Because we can look at particular snips now from doing full sequencing. I've actually had mine done a number of different times with different companies and they give you some insights into things like your aerobic capacity. So you do have a a genetic basis for whether you are more adapt at, you know, aerobic training or whether hit training is going to be prone inflammatory for you or something that you should do maybe once a week instead of, you know, doing it three, four times a week. Whilst also appreciating the adaptability of the human body to one's environment, the fact that you can change your gut microbiome, the fact that you can change your aerobic capacity by doing more things like zone two training, in addition to high intensity interval training. Where do you see the the utility of doshas in the knowledge that we already have, you know, we now have genomic snips that can give us like real sort of accurate precision insights into someone's genetic basis?

Dr Vijay Murthy: When it comes to nutrition and lifestyle, you know, what I have found is when I have measured those who are Vata, they tend to have a higher sensitivity to caffeine. So these are the people where I would say, look, you know, one, you know, from an Ayurvedic perspective, you have a Vata, you fit the Vata description. But when we do your genetic snips, like you are caffeine sensitive, therefore even if you love coffee, it would be best just to have one cup of coffee in the morning, not an empty stomach. Maybe have a few nuts or have it with your breakfast and don't drink coffee after about 2 p.m. or 4 p.m. So in my practice, it does help me to give them a relevant advice because sometimes, you know, if we say, okay, you should never have coffee. Coffee is bad for everyone. That's not true. Only in certain individuals, it is true. Same is with alcohol. I know that, you know, like there's more and more research that's coming that if alcohol ever was a drug, then that you possibly would have been allowed to have one glass of red wine a year. We could say the same thing for caffeine as well. So some are more sensitive to alcohol and others are not. And to understand, you know, how they metabolise alcohol or caffeine or how they metabolise carbohydrates, proteins and fats, Ayurvedic understanding of doshas greatly helps. But I would say, you know, as you know that doing all these genomic testing is not something that is cheap. If you are really looking at population health and we want to bring personalisation within population health, which is where the world is going is about really precision medicine, personalisation, because not everybody sits within this bell curve. Many are outliers. And there to I know that like even within our own healthcare system, those who are very much interested in understanding their hormonal function, we can do their T3, T4, TSH, thyroid antibodies and even reverse T3. But within NHS, it is impossible to get all of these things done if we are wanting to understand if somebody has Hashimoto's or subclinical hypothyroidism because it's a cost issue. Even vitamins like B12 and D3, it can't repeatedly be done because it costs a lot. But imagine if we can actually have this evidence of how one responds to carbohydrates, proteins and fats, the vitamins and minerals, their gut microbiome, their hormones, and if we can draw on the evidence that's there based on doshas and these correlates, at least these can be a first level decision making tools for people and also for clinicians. Because it's non-invasive, it's cheap, and it's not like conducting a whole lot of very sophisticated tests.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. So practically what I see is you don't need to be necessarily an Ayurvedic person to understand doshas.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah.

Dr Rupy: You know, you can, like we understand the stock market, we understand many things that are very practically useful for us. We can also use the doshic patterns wherever there is evidence for it to make it relevant because it's non-invasive.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. I agree. I think that, you know, it speaks to what I was talking about earlier about the marriage between intuition and making sure that people are intuitive about their health rather than being completely reliant on sophisticated investigations to dictate actions. You know, if someone is sensitive to caffeine, you pretty much know, you know, by just doing a detailed history or a self-assessment where if you take two coffees and one of them is at 2 p.m. and you find yourself struggling to go to sleep at night, knocking that on the head or going through a period of caffeine fasting, which I actually do once a year for 30 days and I feel great. Um, and then reassessing when you want to introduce caffeine systematically to to assess whether you are sensitive or not, you don't need to know your CYP12A, I think it is, gene or snip to to determine whether you're caffeine sensitive. You have the innate knowledge within yourself.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah. And I think Ayurvedic principles can potentially help people figure these things out. So the beauty of being in today's world is, you know, we don't have to have any absolute opinions about these things. We don't need to be either or. We can use traditional wisdom that's there in systems like Ayurveda. We can also correlate them or use confirmatory tests where possible. All of it can help in taking individual responsibility for health. We don't need to depend on these dosha typing as exclusive ways of understanding, but they can be starting points to help us understand ourselves better.

Dr Rupy: Isn't it pretty fascinating that we've had this knowledge that's been passed on for thousands of years, but I think modern science is only just coming up to speed with the appreciation for the gut microbiota and the importance of gut health now and, you know, you were just repeating some words in Sanskrit about how health starts in the gut. And I think there's a wider appreciation of just how true that is, but only only now, really.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, you know, see today we look at it's not that people have deficiency of commensal bacteria or which are healthy, helpful, healthy microbiome. What we see is lack of diversity. So even in my own practice when I test, I hardly have come across anybody who doesn't have abundance of good gut microbiome. What we see is lack of diversity. And what's interesting in Ayurveda is, yeah, in Charaka Samhita, which is second century BC or first century AD, that period, it says that the best nutrition is when somebody eats a very diverse range of food.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: And the Sanskrit quote is Sarva Rasa Abhyasa. Sarva is all. Rasa is taste. And when you think about taste in Ayurveda, it does not refer to the modified tastes or fortified tastes or added tastes. It is about the taste of the food in its most original form. And in classical Ayurveda, they say that you have to teach or train a child to get used to eating a diverse range of tastes. And those who do not eat diverse range of foods or tastes, those who do not have taste for a diverse range of tastes, they are more likely to become diseased. And today we know that like this genetic testing when we do, you know, the bitter taste or preference for sweet taste, you know, they all have an influence on the gut microbiome. And so I find that very fascinating that it comes from different way of thinking, but they actually merge. The modern scientific way of thinking about gut microbial diversity and eating polyphenols or phytonutrient dense foods, like all colours, Ayurveda again when it comes to eating foods, it says that not only does mono diet make one unhealthy physically, but also it makes them depressed, which is true. You know, this is what happens even with those who are very health conscious that every morning you're having a sourdough bread with scrambled eggs and avocado, a little bit of pepper, and that's your breakfast every day. Of course, over a period of time, it does not have the same dopaminic effect. So one tends to become depressed. So Ayurveda really recognises the importance of diversity.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's amazing. That is amazing. I mean, like when I got into healthy eating and food as medicine, it was very much influenced by my family, my mum, who'd taken an Ayurvedic approach to their own health, but also, you know, just the the basic principles of living a healthy life. And I was a big sceptic of all this stuff. And the more I learn, you know, through research and doing my masters in nutritional medicine, the and the more I learn about Ayurveda, the more I realise that these principles have been enshrined in texts and we've lost a lot of this knowledge, particularly here in the West, I find, or we've we haven't truly appreciated the knowledge that has been in existence. I find this fascinating as a as a concept. And you've even talked about it in some of your work about the kitchen being the first clinic, as it as it pertains to addressing some of the issues within your dosha or within your digestive state, the Agni. Can we talk a bit more about the kitchen as a as a clinic and and, you know, a little bit more about these these tastes? How do we get diversity into our food? What are the tastes that we should be looking at? Because when I think about diversity, I'm thinking about colours, but I think I've definitely got some blind spots when it comes to the flavours and how we pair foods and how we assess nutrition according to our our chronobiology across our lifespan and across seasons as well.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Interestingly, what Ayurveda proposes is that those who follow a diverse range of healthy eating patterns, they rarely need medicines. And those who take medicines without incorporating a diverse range of healthy foods into will have no use by medicine. So there is a Sanskrit saying that food is foundational for transforming one's health. It's not optional. And I'm talking about not just, you know, of this saying when there was the discovery of modern medicine. I'm talking about this thousands of years ago, they said even Ayurvedic medicines, they don't work if you are not going to follow a diverse range of healthy eating. And when we think about it, that really emphasises how food is the foundational information that can change the human system in optimising. And what's interesting is we know through modern research that once the gut health is optimised, the endocrine system auto-corrects itself. In fact, endocrine system is the only system which can auto-correct itself should there be the environment where the gut health is all right. And so Ayurveda does not differentiate between food and medicine. I'm talking about Ayurvedic medicines. A fortified food becomes an Ayurvedic medicine. That's why we can use the same ginger as food and ginger can also be used as a remedy or as a therapeutic agent. So the principles of cooking and the principles of pharmacology in Ayurveda are the same. It looks at seven different aspects of food or medicines. These are Dravya, Guna, Karma, Rasa, Guna, Virya, Vipaka. So Rasa is the taste, which are six in Ayurveda. In Ayurveda looks at sweet, sour, salty, pungent, bitter and stringent. So obviously, pungency is not from a modern scientific perspective a taste, it's that burning that one feels.

Dr Rupy: Like chillies.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Chilli, yeah.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Or even pepper, it's the burning. And astringent is a little bit like what in the Japanese tradition like umami where, but astringent is where it causes a bit of drying.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Like if you drink buttermilk or yoghurt, at the end of it, you feel that kind of it dries the secretions.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And that is also considered a taste in Ayurveda. So that's why Ayurveda has these six different tastes.

Dr Rupy: Gotcha.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And that's one aspect of your food, but then there are six other aspects that you need to consider.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Guna is the qualities.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Ayurveda looks at the qualities of food as the qualities relating to Vata, Pitta and Kapha. If I may use Sanskrit like Vata is tatra ruksho laghu sheeta khara sukshma chalo nilaha. So Vata qualities are dry and it is light, cold, it's rough, it's more mobile and it's subtle. So that's why like in Ayurvedic kind of food advice, if somebody has Vata features or aggravated Vata, they say that don't have dry and light food. So don't have salads. I mean, which is not true that, you know, salads should never be had. But, you know, that's how you understand. So if you and Pitta, pittam sasneha teekshnoshnam laghu visram saram dravam. Pitta is slightly oily, it's hot, it's sharp, and it tends to go off quickly. So these are the kinds of foods that they think of as increasing the qualities of Pitta. So if somebody has a Pitta type of digestion, Pitta type of personality, then that don't overdo foods which are of this quality.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And Kapha is snigdha sheeto gurur manda shlakshno mritsna sthira kapha. So Kapha is heavy, it is cold, it is dense, and it is difficult to digest or because, you know, it is slow to, it's rich in its, it's rich, so it's rich in calories as well. So Ayurveda looks at the taste, then the qualities. Virya is the potency, is like how quick it can get absorbed. For instance, some are heating and some are cooling. So if the absorption is very fast or if the absorption is very slow. So it considers those qualities as well or those aspects. Vipaka is the post-digestive effect, you know, which is Ayurveda looks at, okay, you may have something like ginger, which actually is acidic, but its post-digestive effect will be, it will be more alkalinising on the system. So it looks at the post-digestive effect. Prabhava, which is one of the other qualities of food is a very unique specific property of that food. Like all foods have all of these qualities, but it will have very specific. See, this is where we are looking at the specific phytonutrients or, you know, the secondary metabolites of a plant. Like turmeric, yes, turmeric is pungent, it's bitter, it is light, it is sharp, but it also has this adaptogenic, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant properties. So that would be considered as Prabhava. Prabhava in Ayurveda is what you cannot explain through the Ayurvedic chemistry of your taste, the qualities, the potency and the post-digestive effect. So that's where, you know, you are looking at the phytonutrient range of foods. Like as I always tell my patients and wherever I speak that don't focus on calories when you are shopping, fill your trolley with seven different colours or at least five to six different colours of natural foods and that's what you need to be aiming for. You know, that phytonutrient dense foods. Ayurveda's understanding of these phytonutrients is a unique contribution to the world. Because imagine if we are to find a new molecule which acts very similar to, let's say, curcumin in turmeric or fulvic acids in shilajit or certain specific antioxidants in Indian gooseberry, amla, if we have to start from the scratch, we will be spending, I think there was an estimation that to find a new molecule from a food substance which we have no clue about from traditional uses will cost about 20 billion US dollars.

Dr Rupy: Really? 20 billion?

Dr Vijay Murthy: To to get that idea like what can this do. But we have about 16,000 Ayurvedic plants that have been documented and there are the properties of these. And imagine if we go by those clues and start to investigate them from a scientific perspective, that is the contribution of Ayurveda is its rich understanding of the polyphenols, the phytonutrients, what we today call the secondary metabolites. So fenugreek is a great example, like what it can do on insulin sensitivity or improving insulin sensitivity, reducing insulin resistance. That could be said about hundreds of Ayurvedic foods that have been mentioned. But generally people think, okay, Ayurvedic food is Indian food, you know, which is another gross misinformation. Many of the foods, you know, like this book which is a classical Ayurvedic book called Bhojana Kutuhalam.

Dr Rupy: What's that called?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Bhojana Kutuhalam. Kutuhalam in Sanskrit means curiosity. Bhojana is eating or meals. So it's curiosity about eating.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And if you look at all the various food groups that have been described here, a very small percentage of this is what is today eaten in India culturally.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: A lot of the way the recipes are described in Ayurvedic classics is not what we find in Indian restaurants or the cultural stereotypes of what we think is Indian food. Ayurvedic way of cooking is a specialisation like pharmacognosy. Like it has its own way of. See, in fact, Ayurveda says that the somebody who you can consider is a very skilled cook is somebody who understands how to bring the essence of the nutrients in the food to its final form without destroying those special properties of the food. In Sanskrit, it's called samskaram gunantaradanam. Samskara is processing. How do you process food without destroying its nutrients? So in Ayurveda, a processed food actually is a highly nutritious food, whereas when we think of processing in the Western context is negative.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. It's stripping everything out. Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So Ayurvedic cooking is a lot about how do you retain nutrients even when you subject it to processing. And that is where Ayurvedic cooking has a lot about how long should you soak a grain or a legume? How many times should you rinse it? And how are you going to emulsify it if it is a fat with water? And how much heat should you apply? What kind of heat should you apply? Should it be direct, indirect? And how long can you preserve it? And how quickly should you use it? See, even when it comes to the debate about is Ayurvedic vegetarian? No, Ayurvedic is not vegetarian because if you are looking at the geography of where Ayurveda evolved, it was not just in two small states of South India. It was spread across Indian subcontinent. And there are many places where Ayurveda flourished and was way of life, which is above tree line. And how can we expect those who live above the tree line to depend entirely on plants or vegetables because it wouldn't grow there. So Ayurveda actually talks about eating foods which are locally grown, seasonally available, and prepared freshly. In fact, when it comes to Ayurvedic concepts about eating meat, it says once the animal is slaughtered, then all of it has to be eaten within six hours. And that's why like in ancient times or even now there's a culture that when it comes to eating meat, it's never one person, one family, it's the entire village. Because they want to make use of it.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Because after that, it is going to be an anti-nutrient.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So Ayurveda is really about respecting nature. It is not just about few rules that you have to be vegetarian or vegan or to, it is very interesting that, you know, there are cultures, you know, within India where, I think when we were talking before we started the podcast that you said that like, what about mushrooms? And, you know, because mushrooms are very difficult to identify if they are poisonous or not, if they are like food or more psychedelic. Ayurveda generally said that like if you are not an expert in identifying plants, if you are not going for foraging, then that don't don't eat mushrooms. So it's not like no mushrooms, it's more like, okay. In fact, there are many Ayurvedic ingredients which belong to the mushroom family and that's used as remedy, but that's by experts, you know, who understand it.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So the myths that, you know, in Ayurveda you don't eat mushrooms, the myth that in Ayurveda you are discouraged to have salads is not true. Or you can't have meat, no, that's not true.

Dr Rupy: I think that's going to become come as a shock to a lot of people actually that an Ayurvedic diet isn't vegetarian or it isn't 100% plant-based.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Well, I didn't say Ayurvedic diet isn't vegetarian.

Dr Rupy: Doesn't have to be.

Dr Vijay Murthy: It's diverse.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: But what Ayurveda also says is that you should eat food which does not contradict your own value system. So if you are vegetarian, Ayurveda offers healthy vegetarian choices. But if your value system is not going to be conflicting with that, then Ayurveda says that, yeah, you can have all of these foods too. So it's very inclusive, but it's very contextual.

Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Yeah. And I I think, you know, there are some key principles there that would have put a lot of people, um, in in better safety. Like, you know, avoiding mushrooms if you can't identify them, or if you're going to eat meat, make sure you have it within six hours because I imagine it will spoil at some point. This is in the time prior prior to refrigeration, perhaps other preservation techniques that weren't as well known back then. So you can understand some of these sort of, um, principles or observations that keep people safe. Um, I I'm fascinated by these seven aspects of of of eating here, you know, the Rasa, Guna, Virya, Vipaka, Prabhava. Yeah, these unique properties. Any other, sorry, that we missed out?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Karma, that's what's the property, what that food can do. For example, some foods can be constipating, some foods can act as prokinetics or as laxatives. Some can help to improve your circulation or your blood. And so there are all those properties which are defined as Karma.

Dr Rupy: Karma. And then the, is there a seventh one, sorry?

Dr Vijay Murthy: So Rasa, Guna, Dravya, Rasa, Guna, Virya, Vipaka, Prabhava and Karma. These are the seven.

Dr Rupy: Dravya, that's the one.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Dravya is the food itself.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: The nature of the food itself.

Dr Rupy: This is fascinating, but I can imagine it's also overwhelming for people hearing this for the first time, myself included. It's like, how do you, how do you make sure that you're balancing all these or, you know, upping the the specific properties? Again, is this based on what you're actually trying to treat or improve or help manage?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yes, it is. Although these very detailed aspects or we could call the technical aspects of Ayurveda is quite complex, Ayurveda also believes in making healthy choices, the easy choices. Like what we say in World Health Organisation as well as healthy choices must be easy choices. You know, the Ottawa Charter for health promotion, I think 1976. So which still is the charter that defines how our healthcare should be, also says that people's health can only change within the environments where they live. Ayurveda totally advises that. You don't have to know a lot of technical aspects. Eat fresh food, eat food which is locally grown, eat food which is seasonal, and do not overeat. You know, so there are like Ayurveda, even if you don't understand all of these seven Dravya, Guna, Rasa, Guna, Virya, Vipaka, Prabhava, Karma, what Ayurveda says is follow this principle, Hita-bhuk, Mita-bhuk, Ritu-bhuk, you know, which is also very rhyming. Hita-bhuk is eat what is conducive to your digestion. Mita-bhuk is eat small quantities, not large quantities. Ritu-bhuk is eat seasonally. So Ayurveda has this concept of, okay, don't overdo, don't underdo, just eat the appropriate amount at appropriate times. So it's about mindfulness.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: See, that's where Ayurveda greatly emphasises on, okay, you'll have to really chew the food several times. You should not be eating while you're standing. Sit down, appreciate the flavour, the colour of the food and eat slowly. And very interestingly, what Ayurveda says is you have to eat with other people, but without talking.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah.

Dr Rupy: Wow.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So there's a way of, there are, there's a whole chapter called Ahara Vidhi Visheshayatanas, which means how actually to prepare food and how to eat it. And one of it is the behaviour of eating itself is where it says, ajalpan, ahasan, tanmana, bhunjita, which is ajalpan is without excessive conversation.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Ahasan, without laughing too much.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Smile, but don't laugh.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Tanmana is mindfulness. Tanmana is being very immersed. Mana is with your mind. So engage your mind in your eating, which is mindfulness. And Ayurveda says that you should not, you should never eat alone.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: You should eat with other people.

Dr Rupy: That's amazing.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So that concept of being mindful and eating with other people, in the sense, you know, that sense of community is an important behaviour. So it is not just about the quality of food, it's also your attitude towards food.

Dr Rupy: I love that. This is, these are some really good practical tips, I think, to bring to whatever you're eating, you know, trying to share it, trying to chew appropriately, appreciate and be in a distraction-free environment. These are all the things that we talk about, particularly with people who suffer with bloating or gastric gastric issues. It may not be the food, it might be the way you're consuming food that is the root cause. Um, in terms of like bringing this all together practically for people, you know, what what are some meals that could be, again, broad strokes, relevant for most of us, independent of, you know, doshas. You know, what what are some of the like, give us an example of like a a breakfast, choose your cuisine, it doesn't really matter, that sort of hits all these different aspects that we want to make sure that we are consuming at each meal time.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So Ayurveda definitely emphasises on combining fibre and good fats together in almost every meal. And to have a good source of what we could today call protein, the one which is very nourishing. So it it should always be a combination, not a single ingredient, because we also know that when we combine different food groups together, then that the glycemic load will also become reduced. So really it's about eating whole grains or complex carbohydrates. It's about adding essential fats. And Ayurveda definitely emphasises not just having the same kind of fat. So although general thinking is, oh, okay, in Ayurveda, you suggest ghee.

Dr Rupy: Ghee.

Dr Vijay Murthy: But it's one thing, like, I mean, if you are in champagne, you just don't drink champagne all the time if you live in champagne. But it's known for that. Ayurveda says that, okay, you need to have other forms of fats as well, like oils, not so much the seed oil. And Ayurveda emphasises that, you know, you don't follow mono diet. And it also really emphasises caloric restriction by doing modified fasting. That's why in within the Ayurvedic tradition that if one of the key principles is if you feel that you haven't digested the previous meal, especially, you know, if you're thinking about dinner and if there was no bowel movement in the morning, Ayurveda suggests do not have breakfast, skip it. So it's more respecting the cycles of how you are digesting and eliminating. So Ayurveda never says that you should have breakfast every day. Ayurveda says, okay, you need to watch whether you digested, whether you eliminated, and if you didn't, then you skip that meal and then have the next meal. And general rules of Ayurveda is that you, there is a saying that, you know, if you eat once, then you will become a yogi. If you eat twice, then you are somebody who enjoys life, which in Sanskrit is called bhogi. And if you eat thrice daily, then you're more likely to become a rogi, that means you're more likely to become ill. And if you eat four times daily, in the sense multiple times, not just four as in four, multiple times daily, then it's time for your funeral. So there are these sayings, you know, which are interesting. What it says is Ayurveda says is like, you need to have a combination of different food groups, mostly fibre, a lot of fibre. Ayurveda emphasises fibre. You know, that's how the use of Triphala came into existence. But then Triphala has become more like a laxative that most people take. It doesn't necessarily have that laxative effect. It's more prokinetic. But to add that kind of fibre to food. So it's about fibre and good fats and a lot of colours of different foods. That's what Ayurveda suggests to plan your meal on a daily basis.

Dr Rupy: Got it. I love the focus on the combination, balanced plates. It makes complete sense from the modern nutritional lens, you know, to combine all these different elements of food, making sure it's whole, unprocessed, low in energy. And I'm a fan of modified fasting, you know, keeping an eating window and having a defined fasting window and making the protein, i.e. the most nourishing part of your meal, a part of every meal, rather than what we've done, which is, you know, over-index on refined carbohydrates in a in a Western diet. Um, you mentioned Triphala there. I want to bring attention to some of the spices that we have across the table from us. We have a selection of things that I recognise, cardamom, ajwain, um, but then also some Ayurvedic spices and herbs that I don't recognise. Um, let's go through some of them, shall we? And talk about perhaps the evidence base behind them, but

Dr Vijay Murthy: You pick any and

Dr Rupy: Let's go for Triphala. So Triphala is having a moment right now. I'm seeing Triphala everywhere. What what exactly is Triphala or Triphala and what are the potential benefits of this?

Dr Vijay Murthy: So Triphala, yeah, it literally means three fruits.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Tri in Sanskrit is also three. Ekam, dve, trini, tri is three. Phala is fruit. But these are dried fruits and they are also considered the three myrobalans. And Haritaki, Bibhitaki and Amalaki. Amalaki is something which I think is common knowledge, which is Indian gooseberry because amla or Amalaki, it has about 650 times more vitamin C than an orange.

Dr Rupy: Oh, wow.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So it's very high vitamin C content is, as we know, is a powerful antioxidant. But we know when it is used as a powder, obviously it won't have vitamin C because it's been desiccated. But then it has antioxidants which can have this anti-inflammatory effect, not because of vitamin C, because of its antioxidants. Then there are two other fruits, Haritaki and Bibhitaki. And these Haritaki and Bibhitaki, you know, they are fruits in very tall trees. The trees are like about 60 feet high and they usually grow very well in the foothills of Himalayas. So the Triphala is essentially dried fruits of Haritaki, Bibhitaki, Amalaki with the seed is removed and the dried exterior is then powdered and mixed together. They have a very high phenolic content. So they add, they act as prebiotics. Really, you know, the gut microbiome, they love it when you use Triphala because it can chew on this fibre and then produce good gut microbiome. They also have a slight laxative effect. And they are really helpful in improving insulin sensitivity. We know that, you know, particularly as we age, our insulin sensitivity starts to become diminished. And so adding Triphala would be helpful in improving insulin sensitivity. So they help in many different ways. They are good for digestive health and also for regulating, for helping with better glycemic control.

Dr Rupy: So for someone looking to use Triphala, would you say this is okay to use in a foundational supplement stack, i.e., you know, if I'm looking to make sure that my glycemic control is optimised, is this something that I could potentially utilise myself in a preventative manner or is this something that you would put in the more medicinal category where someone who is perhaps metabolically impaired or they have, um, slightly raised fasting glucose or raised fasting insulin levels, this is something then you would say, okay, as part of a holistic management, you know, including diet and lifestyle, use one of these.

Dr Vijay Murthy: It's a foundational combination.

Dr Rupy: Okay, okay. So this could be used as a

Dr Vijay Murthy: It's like a superfood. See, Triphala is more like you need to treat it like our modern day superfoods.

Dr Rupy: Okay. Like a daily greens type thing.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, for example, spirulina or chlorella or, yeah, your barley grass or wheat grass. Yes, they have therapeutic benefits, but they are better when they're used as food on a daily basis.

Dr Rupy: Okay. And with the, I mean, it's got some wonderful benefits here, supporting digestion, boosting immunity, promoting detoxification. A lot of these are these are on the basis of the prebiotic effect, i.e. the the fibres that are maintained when you dry and you powder this, or is this through some secondary metabolite effect, you know, optimising liver?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yes, it is true, secondary metabolite effect as well because it helps in better conjugation of metabolites during phase two detoxification in the liver. So it helps with optimising your detoxification pathways. And it it it also is very helpful in creating a diverse gut microbial environment. As we know, what happens is if there is poor microbial diversity, then it results in excessive permeability of the gut lining. What is called dysbiosis leading to, in lay terms, leaky gut, which means that the bacteria, the fungi, virus and even undigested food can cross the gut blood barrier and the immune system becomes alerted, so producing antibodies, keeping the body in a low state of inflammation all the time. And we know that today that we call this the inflammasome and a constant state of low grade inflammation becomes the root contributor for many chronic conditions because there's no inflammation resolution. So when Triphala is taken on a regular basis as a superfood, I would say, not as a medicine, it helps in creating gut microbial diversity and tightening the intestinal junction where one doesn't have any of the antibodies for zonulin or occludin, you know, which is different. So that way it keeps the immune system more optimised. So it reduces inflammation. So there are many different mechanisms of how Triphala. That's why it's a superfood.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I like that, you know, a foundational food that you wouldn't typically get in your diet. I mean, I I I wouldn't even know where to buy amla, for example. I've seen it, um, but I don't think it's something that we'd find in your local supermarket. So as a food additive to supplement a high fibre, quality, unprocessed diet, I can imagine that being that being useful. In terms of so so this is something you could potentially take daily. Um, quality control, something we were alluding to a bit earlier. How do you know you're getting quality Triphala? This is the big question because I I have no idea what this company is, whether there's a batch number. This is bought in Kerala. So how do you how do you know this isn't full of like, you know, metals or preservatives?

Dr Vijay Murthy: It's a very important question that we need to ask for any of the nutritional supplements, Ayurvedic foods which are sold from shops or online. You would need to look for a third party certification. I mean, in Europe and also USA, there's the Eurofins certification. And the key aspects to look for are heavy metals and microbial contamination. Heavy metals particularly because even if heavy metals are not added intentionally, see plant metabolites, they the profile of plant metabolites is based on the soil where it's grown. And for something where it is a superfood like Triphala, if it is processed in a plant which is very close to where the other toxins, heavy metals are, or if in the whole handling of it, if it's very close to a national highway where there's a lot of trucks and it can get into the product. And therefore, Triphala by itself may be very safe, but the way how it is processed, handled, packaged, transported, one would need to look for a third party certification that it is. The other thing that I would also say is, you know, it is almost impossible to get organic Triphala.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Even if somebody says it's organic Triphala, maybe a part of it is organic because many of the Ayurvedic superfoods, they cannot be grown in controlled environments. For example, Haritaki is available in the wild. Of course, you know, one can plant Haritaki and when it becomes a tree, one can start to, but they need certain, even the richness of the phytonutrients is dependent on the altitude where it's grown. So if someone who grows Haritaki, let's say in southern India, even if it is grown organically, one has to wait for several years, 20, 30 years before they can get the actual product. But the phytonutrients in them will not be as rich as something which is grown in the wild.

Dr Rupy: Wow. Okay. That's a really good point there because that's something I

Dr Vijay Murthy: So just don't, I've heard that like most people, you know, they're quite happy if they hear the word organic. But actually not everything can be grown organically. They only grow in the wild.

Dr Rupy: That's a very important context.

Dr Vijay Murthy: You know, if something doesn't have third party certification, if there is no description of how the ingredients are sourced, how they are processed, then one has to be a bit doubtful about the quality of it.

Dr Rupy: Buyer beware for sure. Um, Ashwagandha. Now, Ashwagandha is having a moment, I would say right now. I'm seeing it sprinkled in everything from mushroom drinks, crackers, you know, everything. Um,

Dr Vijay Murthy: Ashwagandha can be grown organically. You can actually have farms of Ashwagandha.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. And how how should we treat Ashwagandha? Again, is this a daily supplement? Is it something that we cycle? And do we use it as a medicine or preventative?

Dr Vijay Murthy: I think it's both. Ashwagandha, I would say is a little bit more than a superfood. Also, one has to be a little bit cautious about Ashwagandha in certain conditions. So let me go with where one has to be cautious. In hypothyroidism. See, Ashwagandha is really helpful in those who have certain types of hypothyroidism. But if it is used without looking for, let's say, thyroid antibodies or Hashimoto's, then it can cause hypothyroidism if it is used excessively. That's where when you're when one is trying to consider Ashwagandha for its benefit on thyroid function, it's important that they actually see a qualified clinician who can take responsibility for recommending it and monitor it. But if you are not having those concerns, then Ashwagandha is a very good adaptogen. Particularly, it's good for reducing the cortisol spiking. Therefore, it's helpful in improving sleep.

Dr Rupy: Sleep, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: It's also helpful in improving mood. And Ashwagandha can be a very good natural anabolic if you are exercising.

Dr Rupy: Oh, really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: It really helps with improving your exercise performance. It's therefore also very good in sexual performance as well.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And there are multiple pathways. See, the one interesting thing about Ayurvedic herbs is unlike the pharmaceutical drugs where it is a single molecule with a single target, Ayurvedic herbs have multiple molecules which act simultaneously through multiple pathways. Ashwagandha is an adaptogen, therefore it is fairly safe to take in about 2.5 grams to 3 grams of Ashwagandha powder if it is organic, certified Ashwagandha. But if one is taking an extract of Ashwagandha, which has become very common.

Dr Rupy: That is, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah. So the process of extraction has been patented.

Dr Rupy: Yes.

Dr Vijay Murthy: But that process is something that every Ashwagandha manufacturer actually uses.

Dr Rupy: Okay, okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So the certification is mostly for the process of it.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So there is a type of Ashwagandha which is considered a very good Ashwagandha extract, which is true because they follow a certain standard, but that's how all Ashwagandha is processed.

Dr Rupy: So is that KSM 66? Is that the one? Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah. So it's the green processing and that's how Ashwagandha is processed traditionally as well. There, you know, one should be looking at not more than 500 milligrams of the extract.

Dr Rupy: Of the extract. Okay, fine. Because that's a higher potency and refined, isn't it?

Dr Vijay Murthy: So the other thing that one has to differentiate is when you talk of, let's say, Ashwagandha or turmeric or any of the herbs that we are talking about, one has to differentiate between is it the whole plant or whole part that's just been powdered and dried or is it the extract?

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: But there's an interesting analogy that's made about extraction of actives from Ayurvedic herbs. Some say that an extract from a whole Ayurvedic herb is like taking the intelligence out, leaving the wisdom behind.

Dr Rupy: Okay, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So when we take a single extract from a herb, it's very similar to a pharmaceutical drug. The chances of adverse effects are greater there. Whereas when we are taking the whole herb, it's coming with the whole package. See, this is how nature is. Nature produces plants for its own survival, you know, not necessarily for human benefit. That we have learnt is with its nutrients, but also with its anti-nutrients and there are compounds which are synergistic. So that's why like if I'm taking, let's say, Ashwagandha powder, which is of good quality over a long period of time, I'm not just taking withanolides. I'm taking it with all other phytonutrients. We currently don't have knowledge on all of the phytonutrients for almost all herbs. We only have knowledge about certain phytonutrients. So when you take it as a whole, it acts as a food because then it has its own natural synergy, it has antagonists, agonists. So that's safer. But if you're taking extract, it's always important that you you take it by the advice of a clinician who's qualified in that. And I always say that even if somebody says this is a fantastic food, it can be taken for, in order to allow our detoxification systems to work well, after you've taken something for about four weeks, give at least two weeks of flush out period.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Which is what we do in research as well, in clinical trials, right? We give flush out period.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really good advice because I think erroneously because of the just how available these products are, people are taking them, they're not cycling them, they're not stopping them to see whether, you know, they they feel better or there's any difference subjectively. They're not doing any blood tests to make sure they're not erroneously being poisoned by some of these. Um, and they're taking it without the wisdom and context that could be given to them with a practitioner. You know, so I think there's a lot of, particularly with extracts, so I just want to underline that point. I think that's very, very

Dr Vijay Murthy: And also Ayurveda looks at if you are taking anything with the intention of improving your health or addressing an illness, it should never be independent of your dietary regulation.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: That's the whole concept in Ayurveda called Pathya.

Dr Rupy: Pathya. The combination of everything.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Pathya is a very interesting word because, you know, I think Sanskrit and Indo-Germanic languages, they are very similar, right? So Pathya comes from the same root as patha, which is path. So if it is conducive to your path, then that's Pathya. If it interferes or creates blockages in your path, that's Apathya. So that's where Ayurveda says that, you know, if you are taking certain herbs, then you would have to follow a certain Pathya. In the sense, in general, you don't eat very spicy foods. What is interesting is we relate spices, particularly Indian spices to chilli. But chilli is not even from India. There is no mention of chilli in ancient Ayurvedic classics. And so spices without chilli actually is a very fantastic adjuvant to add to herbs. And particularly if you're talking about the one which helps in better detoxification, reducing adverse effects, improves bioavailability, then it is either ginger or pepper. See, Ashwagandha because it's anabolic, it's very heating, in classical Ayurveda, they say you have to take Ashwagandha by mixing it with whole milk and cooking it in whole milk as a milk extract because anabolics, they have both water soluble extracts and fat soluble extracts. That's where like you extract in the fat and water medium. A traditional practice is that you mix the herb with half water, half milk, and then you cook it slowly for about 10 minutes and that you drink. So there are these guidelines around how to take them.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Let's move on to Manjistha. We've got a couple more that I want to go through here. Manjistha, I haven't heard of before. What is Manjistha powder?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, it used to be used in the past, even now it can be used as a natural dye. The roots of Manjistha, it's called Rubia cordifolia, that's the botanical name. And Manjistha has, yeah, as you can see, it has this kind of reddish brown, earthy colour. And that's just the ground roots of Manjistha. And they have the ability to correct pigmentation. So when it is applied topically, but it's also taken internally. Internally, it really helps with improving from an Ayurvedic perspective, the quality of blood. So it's called Rakta Prasadaka, which means, you know, in Ayurveda, anything which helps in improving detoxification, particularly liver detoxification capacity, is good for the skin. Essentially, it reduces toxic accumulation, improves circulation and excretion of toxic metabolites. Therefore, the skin becomes very healthy.

Dr Rupy: Like highlighted, bright. Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yes, yes. So it's something which is very commonly used in any inflammatory skin conditions like eczema.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And overall, it's considered something which improves glow of the skin. It's also used in strengthening the functioning of the heart. I mean, there are good researches about the actives in Manjistha, which how the mechanism is, they have speculated the mechanism as to how it can help with improving circulation and improving pigmentation.

Dr Rupy: Very interesting. Um, we have some pepper here, but this is a particular type of pepper. This isn't the kind of pepper that I find in my pepper mill. It's called long pepper and it's like an oblong shape of of pepper. Um, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So this is called Pippali. So in Ayurveda, there are three common pungent spices, not chilli. These three are called Trikatu. Again, tri means three. Katu means pungent. The taste. And one is black pepper, which in Sanskrit is called Maricha. And this is long pepper, which is Pippali. The botanical name is Piper longum. It's a type of pepper, but as you have described, you know, it is long. It's not like these peppercorns. And then the third is Shunti, which is dry ginger. So these are the three. And they actually help in improving digestive enzymes. So they are digestives. And particularly Pippali, it has a specific plant-based steroid. So it helps in overcoming, let's say, asthma or even certain infections because of its natural steroidal content. And this is, this is hardly ever used as food.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah. Long pepper is almost always used within the context of, let's say, an Ayurvedic clinician trying to implement detoxification or, you know, detoxification is the wrong term, biotransformative processes. And Pippali is given to improve metabolism. This is really helpful in speeding up metabolism. But again, Ayurveda classics, they say that if you take Pippali, salt and these caustic natural substances called Kshara on a regular basis, you will age very quickly. That's interesting to me because, you know, particularly Pippali, it has natural steroidal content. If one takes it every day, it can actually suppress the immune system. But this improves metabolism. So there's a specific way of taking Pippali, which in Ayurveda is called Arohana Vidhi. Exactly like what is done with steroids is to increase it and taper it. So that that increasing it, you know, incrementally increasing Pippali, like one pinch, second day two pinches, third day three, until gut tolerance. If one starts to feel that reflux or acidity, then you start to taper it and then you don't do it for, let's say, a month or two months. So Pippali is very useful if you are looking at seasonal allergies, both upper respiratory tract infections, lower respiratory tract infections. But it's not something which should be used as food on a daily basis.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. You have to be really careful with this stuff. I mean, now I'm thinking, you know, potentially using that in a tonic or a broth when you're feeling under the weather, when you have mucus, maybe as an anti-expectorant or trying to improve your airways. Um, but that that that's fascinating. I don't think I've come across long pepper before and definitely not something you want to put in your pepper mill to use every day on your scrambled eggs. Um, we've got a couple of better known spices here. Cardamom, beautiful green cardamom we have, and ajwain. Um, what what are what are some of the properties? Again, are these things that we can take every day or should be used sparingly?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Definitely, cardamom and ajwain can be taken on a daily basis. They're really good to add to foods. Cardamom, yeah, it's the seeds of cardamom that's usually because it has these oils, natural oils, you know, which are really good for improving digestion and also they help in, they act as antibacterial. So cardamom that way is really good as an antibacterial and improving digestion. And cardamom is also very good in improving mood because, you know, it has these aromatic properties. And particularly if you use cardamom powder, let's say with your pre-sleep drink or even in your early morning drink, it actually helps in calming one down. It it helps with better serotonin conversion. You know, if you're thinking about something like tryptophan rich foods that we use before going to sleep to increase melatonin production, cardamom will help in that process.

Dr Rupy: Oh, that's interesting because I put this in some of my night drinks, you know, as a like a sweet spice. Yeah, I love it. It's great. And I, you know, chew on them after eating, you know, as sometimes with a bit of fennel, you know, just like as a natural mouth freshener after eating, you know, it's interesting it's got these antimicrobial properties.

Dr Vijay Murthy: One has to be careful about the source of it as well. Because if it is poor quality, then what they do is they take synthetic cardamom oil and they inject it into the cardamom.

Dr Rupy: Oh my gosh. Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, because cardamom is a very expensive spice.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah.

Dr Rupy: Oh gosh.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So if you're getting it, if you are getting cardamom on special, something not right.

Dr Rupy: And ajwain, this is an interesting one. This is always given to me by my parents when I have a stomach upset.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yes, yeah. It's an anti-colic.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So ajwain certainly, you know, in Ayurveda they say it breaks the wind.

Dr Rupy: It breaks the wind. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And it's often given to infants.

Dr Rupy: Uh-huh, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: In fact, even before I knew Ayurveda, I'm sure every, in our households, they would give a an a a a distill of ajwain called gripe water.

Dr Rupy: Yes, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And to reduce colic. Yeah, the ajwain is that way really good in reducing bloating. It's a carminative. See, even cardamom is a carminative. A lot of the spices that we use within Ayurveda for digestive health are carminatives.

Dr Rupy: Like cumin.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, cumin, coriander, fennel, ajwain, cardamom, cinnamon. In fact, there are eight herbs and which can be used as spices, can also be used as medicine. And it's called Hingwastaka churna. Hingu is asafoetida. I see that you've got some as well. And I've never seen asafoetida like that though. They're almost like little gummies.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Again, asafoetida is a highly contested ingredient because it can be of very poor quality to very good quality. The true asafoetida that you want to have are not the ones which are solid. You want to get the resin. Asafoetida resin. And what you get in many of the stores as asafoetida is often mixed with wheat.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, because you know,

Dr Rupy: Because they look like little stones, the ones that you buy in the supermarket.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, so it's ground and then it's processed with wheat flour and then so it becomes easier to to sprinkle.

Dr Rupy: I have seen that you get them in plastic tubs and you sprinkle them on.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Don't don't get that.

Dr Rupy: Ah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So real asafoetida will smell so bad that it will take a long time for you to actually feel okay around it.

Dr Rupy: Really?

Dr Vijay Murthy: But it's very effective because even a small pinch of asafoetida, let's say put in your cooking, it has to be activated in oil or ghee. And or you can soak asafoetida in hot water and then you can add it to your food, just a small pinch. It really helps in activating the gallbladder. So it helps with better bile secretion. So as you can see like a lot of people have difficulty in good bile secretion, you know, which is what results in the gut not getting disinfected, results in bad microbial growth, acidity, reflux, vulnerability to have bacterial infections. Asafoetida if it is used on a regular basis as a food will help.

Dr Rupy: Wow. Wow. That's that's amazing. I did not know that. Um, I've got a couple more here. Kasturi turmeric. Now, what I obviously I've heard everyone's heard of turmeric, but what is so special about Kasturi turmeric in

Dr Vijay Murthy: So, turmeric, there are more than about 36 different types of turmeric.

Dr Rupy: Wow.

Dr Vijay Murthy: In the same genus, which is Curcuma. The one that there's a lot of research is on Curcuma longa.

Dr Rupy: Yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Which has these curcuminoids, which we know is a very good anti-inflammatory, it is a very good antioxidant. Kasturi turmeric is not Curcuma longa. Kasturi turmeric is Curcuma aromatica. Same thing like Kasturi is something which emanates a nice aroma. So this is different to the culinary turmeric.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: This is used for topical application.

Dr Rupy: Ah, so it has like anti-melanogenic properties.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And it does not stain like turmeric. So this is what is used for its, yeah, skin supportive, pigmentation correcting, glow enhancing, antibacterial properties.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Kasturi turmeric. But it's not used orally.

Dr Rupy: Gotcha. Okay. So definitely don't eat that. And I've got, I want to talk about two more here. Almond gum. Um, I've never, obviously I've heard of almonds, but almond gum I've never heard of. This is Gond Katira. Gond Katira or Badam Pisin. Pisin? Pisin.

Dr Vijay Murthy: My my guess is it's not from almonds.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: It looks like almond.

Dr Rupy: Oh, okay, okay. Uh-huh.

Dr Vijay Murthy: But Katira or gum is myrrh.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Or the resin that comes out of certain plants. For example, asafoetida is also a resin. So like if you incise the asafoetida plant, then the resin oozes out, then that's collected and then it gets semi-solid.

Dr Rupy: Gotcha.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And myrrh also. So, yeah, so and and they are mostly anti-inflammatory.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So they are used in joint pains, osteoarthritis.

Dr Rupy: Orally?

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, orally. And what is done with any of these gums is they are not always used as medicine, they're used as food, particularly during winter. Like if you have different mixed nuts, then these mixed nuts are roasted and then you use this gum, these are natural resins, you know, to bind them to make them into like these little balls, like bliss balls.

Dr Rupy: Gotcha.

Dr Vijay Murthy: And they are considered from a traditional Indian perspective and Ayurvedic perspective to be strengthening, to improve your immunity because they are heating in property. Like they are good during winters. But one of such myrrh which is very popular, there's a lot of research on is Guggulu.

Dr Rupy: Guggulu.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Which is Commiphora mukul. And Guggulu has a phytonutrient in it called Guggulip and that will help in, that acts as a fat burner. And Guggulu is also very helpful in arthritis. It's used even in rheumatoid arthritis for painful joint conditions.

Dr Rupy: Is that separate to Guggul, which is

Dr Vijay Murthy: Same.

Dr Rupy: Oh, it's the same.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Same.

Dr Rupy: Oh, because that's in used, there's some evidence looking at Guggul and cholesterol lowering.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yes, yes. So it's used, it's it's a very broad spectrum antioxidant. So it's helpful in cardiovascular health, it's helpful in joint health. It's good in overall reducing inflammation. Yes.

Dr Rupy: Really interesting. And again, is this more on the medicine side?

Dr Vijay Murthy: This is definitely, yeah.

Dr Rupy: Definitely. And something you need to cycle or something you can take daily for months on end or again, something you have to

Dr Vijay Murthy: Yeah, yeah. I would say, see, maximum eight weeks and then give about two weeks of break.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: But especially when one is taking something which is very powerful like Guggul, it's important one to know the source, secondly, to monitor your own bloods, particularly liver function.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: See, what often happens is, you know, if people are already consuming a lot of alcohol or their liver is compromised or let's say they have Gilbert's syndrome, you know, genetically, the detoxification is not so good with liver, taking herbs, one has to be careful to monitor it. Not that it always is a contraindication, but you know, we need to see if our body is able to detox these herbs.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And um, we have this bottle here. This is something that my family brought back from Kerala. Apparently, you put some warm oil in it and you let it infuse and then you put it on your scalp and it helps with hair regrowth or hair nourishment, something like that. I don't know. I've got no idea what's in it. It looks impressive from the, you know, the dried sources and everything. And you give it a smell if you like.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So the only two ingredients that I can identify here because these are dried flowers and these are dried leaves.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: I don't know which dried flower and dried leaves these are. But there's one which is reddish in colour, you know, this is Rakta Chandana, which is called the red sandal. And then there is also these roots which are called Ushira. And these are all in general very cooling herbs. And when you add hot oil to it, then it will extract all its aromatic principles in them and then when you massage it, you will have this cooling effect.

Dr Rupy: Okay.

Dr Vijay Murthy: So the good thing is, you know, you get a lot of these synthetic massage oils, but at least when you have these right herbs and you prepare it with the oil, generally it's either coconut oil or sesame oil that's used. It can have that cooling effect because of its aromatic properties.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Whether or not it's going to help with regrowth, TBC, I'm assuming.

Dr Vijay Murthy: You know, as you know, there are so many different reasons for hair fall.

Dr Rupy: Hair loss. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Hair loss and the general concept is that, okay, inflammation is one of it and this can help, but one has to really investigate what the cause is.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. This has been absolutely fascinating. I could talk to you so much longer about some of the daily routines, um, that Ayurveda emphasises, like tongue scraping, early early waking, I mean, we've talked about mindful eating, but other sort of shodhanas, the detoxification, um, practices. But I appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming on.

Dr Vijay Murthy: You're most welcome. See, Ayurveda is a very complex system of health that's evolved over thousands of years with a lot of its principles and practices well documented and tried. So we can discuss it for days and years, but what I always think is that oversimplification of Ayurveda can be problematic because one, it's not going to be beneficial. Secondly, it's neither going to do, it's neither going to help the person and it will be doing some disservice to the very methodically thought through Ayurvedic principles as well. So it has to be done with respect and also one has to be cautious. Yeah, it's not just the sentiment of Ayurveda, one has to really have a good understanding of it, not only as an as knowledge, but in how one applies it.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. Amazing. I appreciate that. Uh, Vijay, that was great. And uh, I'll see you again.

Dr Vijay Murthy: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Rupy. Thanks, thanks for that lovely conversation. Yeah, thank you.

Dr Rupy: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of The Doctor's Kitchen podcast. Remember, you can support the pod by rating on Apple, follow along by hitting the subscribe button on Spotify, and you can catch all of our podcasts on YouTube if you enjoy seeing our smiley faces. Review show notes on thedoctorskitchen.com website and sign up to our free weekly newsletters where we do deep dives into ingredients, the latest nutrition news, and of course, lots of recipes by subscribing to the Eat, Listen, Read newsletter by going to thedoctorskitchen.com/newsletter. And if you're looking to take your health further, why not download The Doctor's Kitchen app for free from the App Store? I will see you here next time.