Dan Murray-Serter: And then after the five minute conversation of this guy seeming unbelievably interested in all of my very rubbish, I'm sure, thoughts, some guy came up to me and was like, do you know who that was? I was like, no, I did try and ask him but he wouldn't tell me. And he was like, that's Tim Berners-Lee, he invented the internet.
Dr Rupy: No. Great. Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life. Dan Murray-Serter is my guest on the pod today. He is a multi-award-winning serial entrepreneur who talks openly about failure, mental health, mental performance and brain care. And today we have a really honest conversation about his startup successes and failures, what led him to create his latest company Heights, imposter syndrome and a ton more. And if you enjoy stories about entrepreneurship and how people started in wellness, then you will love this episode. And the links to the lecture that we discussed by Professor David Smith of Oxford University on the potential use for B vitamins and omega 3 in dementia can be found in the show notes on the doctorskitchen.com. And whilst you're there, do check out the newsletter and the seven-day free meal plan that I've got for anyone new to the newsletter. You really should be on the newsletter if you're listening to this because every week I provide a recipe as well as something to either drink, watch, listen or read, just a few minutes that will give you some inspiration about how to lead a healthier, happier life every single week. Do check it out and if you haven't had the seven-day meal plan, I'm going to make sure it's in the footer of every newsletter I put out. So if you're already a subscriber, don't worry, you will still get it. On to the podcast. Cool. All right. I mean, we just do this freestyle, so you know the drill. You've been doing a podcast for ages.
Dan Murray-Serter: I know the drill. Yeah, yeah. It depends what you want to ask.
Dr Rupy: You were going to walk here.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, but I didn't.
Dr Rupy: You didn't walk here.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Do you know why? I was my first question, how your walk was going to be.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, well, I'm going to walk, I'm going to walk after this. I've actually got, funnily enough, for the first time meeting my colleagues at Secret Leaders. I've been employing people there, but I've never met them. Yeah, yeah. Um, and so I've taken a day of holiday from Heights and this is how someone, this is how someone like me spends their holiday, hang out with my other business.
Dr Rupy: Hang out with the other business. Yeah, yeah.
Dan Murray-Serter: So I'm going to, I'm going to walk there. It's not that far. There's London Bridge. That's actually okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but no, the reason I didn't, um, is because I, um, I've also enrolled in like a basically an extracurricular class called Community College.
Dr Rupy: Because you don't have enough going on, mate. You've got
Dan Murray-Serter: I know, it's a bit much. A couple of businesses. Yeah, and the class, the class is at 12:30 a.m. to 2:00 a.m. because they're in America. So I was like, I don't, I don't want to turn up with bad sleep. So I'm going to like literally rinse the sleep as much as possible and then I, and then I was like, right, I have to get an Uber. No choice here. But it was worth it for the sleep.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. No, I would, I would recommend that as well. You don't want to
Dan Murray-Serter: Exactly. You want to find the way to, you know, get the balance, right? Get the extracurricular neuroplasticity, but also, you know, the, the walking, the sleeping, you know, find the right balance the next day.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And try not to feel guilty about it all the time.
Dan Murray-Serter: Well, that's actually, I was going to ask you about that because you're pretty prolific on, on Clubhouse.
Dr Rupy: Yes.
Dan Murray-Serter: And Clubhouse tends to be pretty late for me. Like my bedtime, just putting everything out in the open here, 8:30 to 9:00 p.m.
Dr Rupy: Oh, that is early. I thought you'd say 9:30, 10.
Dan Murray-Serter: No, no, no. I'm pretty early.
Dr Rupy: If you're up at 5:00 a.m. though, aren't you?
Dan Murray-Serter: I am a 5:00 a.m. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: I mean, all things, you know, you can't have it both ways.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. But that's what's prevented me from, from entertaining Clubhouse as much. But you, you do.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, but I don't do any, I don't do any thing after 10:00 anyway. This community college is like a complete random, it's a one-month course. And it's like, I'm trying to, uh, we've got an audience at Heights. And I'm very interested in the science of audience to community. Our customers refer to themselves a lot as community, but I'm very, uh, I'm very stubborn on this metric because I'm a bit like, you know, the communication generally comes from us, right? The newsletter comes from me, the communication comes from us. Like that is an audience, not a community. So like there is a science in how we switch this stuff around. I just want to like learn the depths of it and I found this course that's like amazing. Um, but it's all US time zone. So I was like, well, for one month, I'll just do it.
Dr Rupy: Let's talk about that.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, yeah.
Dr Rupy: Because I'm fascinated by the difference between audience and community because I think everyone can agree you want community, no matter how big that community is, you want a really engaged community that support each other, that understand each other, um, that respect each other, etc, etc. How do you differentiate that and how do you create that, particularly right now where the metric is followers or listeners or whatever?
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah. So speaking about it from like a company level, everything gets defined, um, by the number, like the thing that you're measuring. So if you go around, for example, um, saying the thing we're measuring is revenue, then your team will chase growth and new customers, right? That's as simple as that. If you chase engagement, for example, so engagement on our content, then like suddenly it dictates, right, we're trying to find out what content people engage with, like is it podcast, is it audio, is it video? Do we need to invest more here? You know, are we stretched too thin? Um, you know, if for example, community is a good one in terms of, um, comments can be a really great way of engaging, of thinking about community as a starting point. Um, but the thing that I personally think, um, is if you're, like, if your ambition is to make a really great company, it doesn't need to be a community at all. Like most companies are not communities. But if your ambition is to be a really great company, then you need to be as a founder, you've got to be quite brutal about your metrics, about what you've achieved and whether or not it really looks like the thing you want to build. So when we started Heights, um, we, we are following the strategy that we started with incidentally. So we said, let's start with a newsletter. Why? They're free, they're cheap. I'm not great at social media. I'm okay. I have a bit of a love-hate relationship. I don't hate it. I just can't be bothered to be on it a lot and I don't get physical energy from it, right? So you know, you mentioned Clubhouse earlier. I do get energy from Clubhouse, right? And the reason is because I'm in control. I'm like inviting people that I, like a podcast, right? I'm inviting people I want to have an interesting conversation with about health and brain care. Amazing. That's great. I mean, literally, if I wasn't enjoying it, I wouldn't do it. But that works for me. Optimizing a picture with hashtags and filters and memes, it's not that engaging for me. Um, I enjoy consuming it. So I can't, I can't spend my time doing that and love it. So the one thing that I do enjoy is writing. And actually, just talking about this from like a Heights perspective, I think something that would be interesting for listeners to know, because I had a previous business, which was in fashion, and I didn't like being in fashion, and I got imposter syndrome a lot. Um, imposter syndrome shows up, uh, many times in, in entrepreneurship, well, in all, in all environments, but it can happen a lot in entrepreneurship, also by if you are quite successful, then the places that you go can be quite a big shift. So, I promise I'm going to get back onto the point. This will make sense. Um, I got into a point with with Grabble, which is my last company, we became the number one shopping app in the UK. We then got invited to lots of extremely ridiculous things, like I was at Buckingham Palace.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow.
Dan Murray-Serter: Three, four times a year, I met the Queen, like all of these things. And the people that are in there are ridiculous compared to you, right? And I was like 26, 27. So I felt very out of place and very stressed about it. Um, and then, you know, the other thing that goes on if you run a startup, talking about mental health and stress, is you can't really predict what's going to happen and when. So one of my jobs was to be, you know, company spokesperson. So I'd go speak at events. I spoke at, there was a week when I had to speak at an event at Google, um, at Retail Week and at Wired. And I was at Wired, I was the keynote speaker in between Facebook and Google, talking about the future of mobile. That's how like exciting my company was at the time. We were growing super fast. Um, I had to go up and do this speech. And then the Thursday was Tech Crunch, which is like the industry, like tech, um, publication. They have an award ceremony called Europas, right? And we were up for best mobile startup of 2017. So I had this really busy week of doing all of these speaking engagements and then an award ceremony. Um, that exact week was when we literally internally found out like we definitely weren't going to carry on, be able to run the company, right? It was going to fail. There was no way that we could get out of this situation. Um, like our cash burn was too high, our investors weren't investing, like everything was crumbling. And usually if that happens in like a startup environment, you're kind of got to deal with it with your co-founder, with your team and have those hard conversations. I had to get on stage all week at these different events. And it was like death by a thousand paper cuts because it wasn't like they were all on the same day. It was like one on Monday, one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday. By the awards on Thursday, and I've got such a great visual representation for me. Um, by the awards on Thursday, uh, neither me or my business partner went to the awards. It's worth saying that like we wanted this award. We did a vision board when we first started the company and actually we just wanted to be in Tech Crunch. That's how pathetic we were. Um, at the completely wrong goals because we weren't tech entrepreneurs at all, right? So we were like, it would be cool to break into tech. And then to like get in Tech Crunch, which is like the hardest thing to do there. Um, so when we won this award, we won best mobile startup of 2017, beat Depop, beat Tinder, beat all of these other apps that were around, and we didn't go to the award ceremony because we were basically just too depleted and too bummed out. And we have a photo of our friend picking up the award with two fingers, two middle fingers up, just basically at both of us being like, where the hell are you? You can't tell people why you haven't gone, right? It's really embarrassing. So we've got the, the actual physical award is an amazing reminder of how ridiculous startup life can be with like the outside perception and really what's going on behind the scenes. So after my company failed, I'd like become acutely aware that I do definitely suffer from imposter syndrome. And I had this idea for Heights and we can come on to like why. Um,
Dr Rupy: I just want to bookmark that for a second because that, that imposter syndrome sounds like it is genuinely you feeling like an imposter because in the knowledge that your company is failing, you're being given awards.
Dan Murray-Serter: It's both ways. It's also in the knowledge, it's like a shared joke where everyone's in on it. So being at Buckingham Palace is a great example. We hadn't achieved anything to be at Buckingham Palace. I had this unbelievably embarrassing like five-minute long conversation with a guy who was asking me lots of questions in a very English, lovely way. He was incredibly charming and was asking me about the future of mobile and what I think about mobile internet and all this stuff. And I am literally a guy that basically had got lucky, done a few hacks, created a good app and it had gone viral, is what had happened. So hardly a thought leader in technology. Um, and didn't at the time tell anyone I was, right? So really not pretending to be. Um, and then after the five-minute conversation of this guy seeming unbelievably interested in all of my very rubbish, I'm sure, thoughts, some guy came up to me and was like, do you know who that was? I was like, no, I did try and ask him, but he wouldn't tell me. And he was like, that's Tim Berners-Lee, he invented the internet. I was like, oh, great. Glad I just told him about what I think about the future of mobile. He must have been like gone home and just laughed with his wife so much at this guy that he met that thought he had a clue. So that's kind of what I mean though, right?
Dr Rupy: Did you have a man bun then as well?
Dan Murray-Serter: No. No, no, no. I was, I was, I was quite well dressed for Buckingham Palace. I'll tell you that much. I'm quite, I'm quite a, quite a proud casual dresser, even fancy dresser. Love, love costumes, love dressing up, love being a bit silly. But yeah, Buckingham Palace is where I drew the line. Although it's worth saying that Jimmy Wales, who is, uh, like the founder of Wikipedia, he turned up to, to Buckingham Palace every, he's the only person every single time that just like wore a t-shirt and jumper, whatever he wanted to do. He wore a Christmas jumper once. I was like, quite impressed.
Dr Rupy: That, that is quite impressive. I mean, he literally doesn't take any money from the company. He's probably like the poorest tech entrepreneur.
Dan Murray-Serter: The poorest, most famous. Yeah, for sure. Exactly. Um, anyway, so that, that, so yeah, the imposter syndrome sort of comes on, on two sides, right? It like can manifest when, um, you know that you are on stage facing a lie that you is not appropriate to, you know, announce there because actually that's just embarrassing for the event organizers. Um, and then the other one is, you know, when things are going well, but they're not going that well. As in they're going well, but like ultimately, there's a difference between growth and success. And you haven't made it just because you're like the hot new thing. And we were really actually quite good at like understanding that, but it is hard when other people that you admire are coming to you and talking to you about what you've achieved and stuff and you don't feel like it's true. So that all eats at you a bit. When I started Heights, I knew, so I knew that I wanted to go into a space. I didn't know what I was going to make. So we knew no supplements or anything else. We completely blank canvas. But I was like, the brain something, right? Because I love mental health. I've always been into it. Um, I'd had this personal experience and I was just really interested in, I just want to work in the space of the brain. And that's all I could really communicate. I was like, I don't know if I want to be a psychologist or we should do an app or I don't know, but the brain is just something I love to learn about. So, as soon as I did that, um, and because nutrition had been the thing that had like actually cured my mental health problem, I was like, I want to write a newsletter because that will be amazing practice, right? Like I said, it's free. Well, it cost like 50 quid to get a MailChimp account and then you're just writing and you're just building an audience slowly but surely. So I was like, I want to write a newsletter on basically neuroscience and nutrition. But I'm not a nutritionist or neuroscientist. Um, a, I'm like, on one side, I'm quite aware nutritionists seem to be viewed through two lens. Like, one is that like anyone can be a nutritionist over a weekend, which obviously is true. My business partner did it to prove a point. Um, and, um, and then obviously there's like the expert, like registered nutritionist that like really know their stuff. And then people really worship their word and there seems to be a lot of disagreement on some of the like basic stuff, but regardless, there are kind of like two classes of nutrition attitude, right? I was very conscious that like, I can be quite cynical about believing people's integrity on social media. And I really didn't want to be someone that other people thought, like, who the hell is this guy talking to me about nutrition, literally, you're an entrepreneur, stay in your lane, you have no idea what you're doing, which would be totally fair. And then the neuroscience bit, I mean, come on, like that is so far beyond my technical capabilities to understand. I was like, day one, right? Day one of being like, I want to learn this. So, what was really cool is having had my experience previously, I was able to just sit with those thoughts and say, I know the path I want to go on, and I know how that will affect my mental health because I know that whether it's true or not, I will tell myself the story every single day that no one trusts me, right? And that they shouldn't, because, you know, it's one thing to trust someone on an opinion, but when you get into like medical and health, like it's literally why people work so bloody hard to be like thankless doctors where like you're working so hard all the time, don't even get most of them on social media, right? They just work really hard to get that appreciation. Here's some guy that's just going to read some things. So, I like had all of this playing out. I knew it would happen. So, I was like, what I'm going to do, I'm going to write a newsletter and I'm going to commit, this is the only thing that I know that I'm going to do, is I'm going to commit to reading a science paper every week without fail, usually multiple, and then rewrite that science paper into plain English because I'm a good communicator and I know how to write. So, everyone learns, whilst I was doing interviews, I learned everyone's like, I love science. Love, love science papers, love science. Yeah. It's like, when was the last science paper you read? Like, no one's ever even heard of PubMed. So, there's a lot of virtue signaling about loving science, but no one reads the stuff, right? And I can tell you, by the way, after writing 150 plus newsletters, we put the scientific link, clickable link in every newsletter, it gets like one or two clicks. So not that many people want to read the original science paper. Um,
Dr Rupy: They want the shorthand, they want the abstract.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, exactly. So I was like, my thing will be, as of today, I'm going to read science papers every day and I'm going to rewrite them in plain English, you know, in millennial speak with some lols, you know, a little sign off from me, a little bit about where we are in the journey.
Dr Rupy: Some emojis.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, exactly, some emojis, some cat gifts. Um, and, um, and like make it approachable, right? So it's quite like, you know, bringing it to a new audience, like understand your audience. Yeah. Um, over time, I'll never be a nutritionist or a dietitian or a neuroscientist, but if I go from no knowledge to consistently doing it that way, then all the knowledge that I will have acquired will at least come from science papers. Now, as I've learned, as I'm sure you know as well, just because it's in a science paper definitely doesn't make it true because two science papers can argue with themselves. So you've got to be careful, um, with the acquired knowledge you're getting. But at least I'm like, I've always said in the newsletter, um, you know, this isn't like just my opinion, right? This is like what the science paper says. So this is my interpretation of it and here's the original paper and this is why it's interesting. Um, so I started doing that with, funnily enough, recipes for brain, for brain food. Um, I learned so quickly I'm an awful cook. I thought I was going to do meal delivery. My, my first idea was I'm going to do meal delivery boxes for like healthy people do brain food. Yeah, exactly. Um, because as you know, and as I learned, it is actually super hard to get the nutrient and you just won't on a daily diet. Like just most people are not going to gravitate towards just cooking things that are amazing for their brain. But I was like, if you can communicate how important that is, and then package it up and make these boxes and stuff, that would actually be really helpful. Anyway, other than super niche market, uh, I learned so fast how bad I am at cooking. I just don't have the patience for it. Like you've got such an art for it, right? You, you, you could tell that you love it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I love it. For me, it's like, for me, it's like, you know, just, just, just be done already.
Dan Murray-Serter: I, I get, I guess my sort of take on that is I'm trying to get people to love cooking even a fraction of the amount that I love cooking, right? And I want it to, like, I'm trying to be the medical Jamie Oliver. Let's be straight. Like, I want to make cooking, the joyfulness of cooking, the, the cultural celebration of cooking with the undertone of trustworthiness, evidence-based, clinical research, etc, etc. With that sort of like, you know, as the foundation, but all the loveliness on top and trying to inspire people like you who perhaps don't feel like they have the time or the motivation or the culinary creativity to create a meal for your brain or your heart or whatever. Um, so I guess it, it is, it is possible, I think, but it takes work and it takes a lot of time compared to what people really need in the immediacy of the moment, which I guess is what you're working on.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, but also just to come back to that for a second, you know, I'm so big on neuroplasticity, right? And manifestation. I believe in these things. That doesn't mean that I'm a lunatic. It just means
Dr Rupy: Oh no, we did a whole episode on manifestation.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah. Yeah, so like this is the thing, like, you know, you write down a goal. I mean, because I'm in business, I like to, you know, whenever like my fellow entrepreneur friends are like, what a load of nonsense. I'm like, what's the difference between manifestation and a business plan?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, exactly.
Dan Murray-Serter: There is no difference. Like you just use different language. But like as soon as you put numbers down on a spreadsheet and say this is where we're going to get to, you've manifested something. You are responsible for figuring out how you get there. So you have to come up with a plan. Well, same thing with manifestation. You've got to have some idea of where you're going. So, you know, to this, I do believe, you know, I could have followed that path of like creativity and cooking. At that moment, I could have picked to be anyone I want to be, the same way as I can do that today. And and the reason why, interestingly, I've changed career so much. I was in advertising originally, then I went into tech, and now I'm in like wellness. The reason I've done that is because I want to challenge my brain that I can be anyone I want to be, as can anyone at any age. And I think every 10 years, it's a personal goal, every 10 years, I love the idea of entering a new industry and trying to disrupt that industry one way or another. And the best way to do that is to know nothing about it. So, to give you like an idea, actually, I'll say one more thing on this just quickly. The other thing is, um, your approach with how you get people to do this, um, obviously you'll have had to learn how to be comfortable in front of the camera and and, you know, learn the patter and what's engaging for people and and I get all that. Um, but that's the thing. I think, I think the way to people's hearts with the story, the way that you do it, I think it has to be personal brand. I think it has to be personal brand. Like, I think it's really hard to do that as a company and be interesting, really. Um, people connect with you and the way, you know, your charm and your, your humor and the way that you, uh, bring in cultures, right? That's, that is the shtick, essentially. Um, again, like I, um, I work a little bit on personal brand, but like I am, you know, there is still at the end of the day, unless you're like a mega personal brand, there's generally more longevity in company brands simply because, you know, you can hand over the reins if you've done it well and you can move on with your life. And that is harder to do like on an identity point of view. It's harder to do a personal brand. And I think if you're a doctor, which you are, like that's actually fine because doctors find like a very true purpose in life and calling. So you can like meander around in your career in the frame of being a doctor and in the frame of helping with health information. I think with entrepreneurs, I've seen it a lot, you know, you get identity crisis a little bit as well when you get too attached to the thing that you're working on and it might not be the thing that you're interested in in 10 years and you have this whole, and I've had it, you have this like crisis, right? Of like who am I? Um, and and it can be quite serious. So I've I've tried to find a healthy balance. I don't know if I've got it right, but a healthy-ish balance of both being the spokesperson of my company and my brand and trying to make sure it's not all about me because as well because I'm not a doctor. And I think that's super important. So
Dr Rupy: Well, it's interesting because it's almost a similar path that you took with your previous company because by your own admission, you said you didn't know anything about tech, yet you founded a tech company that was so big, you know, you were having chats with the creator of the internet in Buckingham Palace and you're being sandwiched in between Facebook and Google on a on a tech stage. Um, and what you're essentially doing right now, and I don't know whether this is part of the course, is I don't know whether it's an Austin Kleon, uh, uh, sort of strategy of show your work or building in public because that actually demonstrates vulnerability, the authenticity of the journey that you're on and that newsletter that demonstrates to people that you're, you know, you're doing the work and you're you're taking people on a journey with you. That's engaging. That's a narrative right there that I I think is is key to building community.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, and I I think you're right and that's the point when you when you think about community, it's like trying to switch it around. So, you're completely right, like building in public is exactly what we've been doing. So, you know, I, um, there's a lot of excitement around building in public in general, but first it's worth saying that like I actually, like building in public is cool. It's one of those like tweets like, yeah, sex is cool, but have you tried? Well, this is like building in public is cool, but have you tried failing in public? So, first, first, first things first, like I failed in public. So when we failed, I did like a public postmortem on what we, why we failed, what we did. I wrote this blog that went viral, but it was very brutal on like these are the things that I've done that like that have, uh, completely contributed to our company's failure. Um, this isn't on anyone else, this is on me and these are like absolutely my observations and how we failed. Between that post and launching Heights as a newsletter was about a year. So there was a year of like, or maybe a year and a half of like, you know, not really sure where I'm going or what to do. Um, and in the meantime, um, like the impetus for starting Heights, why I even became interested, like it's a very, very common story. Um, not, not the specifics, but my business partner and I had different problems at the same time. So he had really bad gut problems, um, from never having them before and was hooked on Symprove and just like really struggling. Um, and it was for him, he's like a bit of a golden boy. He's very naturally intelligent and all this stuff, right? Like top of the class and like did like economics at uni, got first and all that stuff. Um, so he's very big on like his mental performance, very big. Um, like optimizing it. And then gut problems are like an unbelievable hit on that. So he was having all of these problems and having to start researching it. I was simultaneously actually suffering from insomnia. So I woke up one day, ironically, um, and and couldn't get back to sleep. And I had no reason why that had happened. So
Dr Rupy: Was this after you closed down the company?
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, so it was after I closed the company. I was actually in a moment of my life where I was really happy. Things were fine. Um, I was getting married and, you know, yeah, we'd closed the company, but like it hadn't been like total financial ruin. And that's actually like partly it. Like we'd closed it like properly, um, and hadn't like ground it down to the bone and all that stuff. Um, I was in a, yeah, just a moment in my life when, you know, it's worth saying like I practice gratitude. I am very like positive mindset. I'm a happy person, lucky. Like I I work on my mindset and I'm like naturally geared towards, you know, thinking the best in everything. And I just couldn't sleep. And I was like, oh well, never mind, that's annoying. And then I would, um, I would wake up at 2:00 a.m. and I just couldn't get back to sleep again. Um, and this would just happen on repeat. And the problem that I really faced was, you know, I'm going to fast forward a boring story, but like, you know, you you will know this. I went to the doctor, um, to explain this and he gave me sleeping pills. Did not suggest anything else other than sleeping pills. Um, I went to therapists, sleep therapists, psychiatrists, um, I tried, you know, cutting out coffee, having more coffee, cutting out alcohol, having more alcohol. You just like name, name anything that I was like willing to try. But it never really occurred to me about diet because, you know, well, not your listeners because your listeners are already on that journey, right? But I would never have discovered you or your podcast, just different interests. And that's what I love about podcasts like this is like, but then you also have to appreciate you're speaking to a very sophisticated, curious audience on the topic already that have that awareness. Um, so I was consider yourself more informed in general, thought I was informed. Um, I went for dinner with a friend and she said, uh, it sounds like you've got a brain nutrition problem. Have you thought about going to see a dietitian? And I was like, a, I have no idea what brain nutrition means. Like, what do you mean? And secondly, no, I haven't thought about going to a dietitian. No one's told me to. So she was like, well, just go see one. So I went to this dietitian and she was utterly uncharming. It's worth saying. Um, just like very exasperated with my condition for me, about me, to me, I don't really know what her issue was, but I always remember her demeanor. And she was just like, you, um, yeah, she diagnosed me within one minute. And the reason she did was because I was vegan. And I'd been vegan for 18 months, two years. I mean, like lots of people now watching Seaspiracy, like, you know, when you work in tech, you've got to be an early adopter, otherwise like, who are you? So I I'd watched Cowspiracy like 18 months before that and I'd gone vegan and I loved it, right? I was actually really into it and, um, I was my biggest challenge being vegan was just like the amount it would irritate my mom when I'd go for dinner. Um, and that was basically almost made me give up just on the basis of I can't be bothered to deal with this chat with my mom ever again. Um, I might just eat a hunk of meat just to shut you up, but I didn't. Um, anyway, so, and then obviously the resounding I told you so afterwards is painful. Anyway, um, I went to,
Dr Rupy: I know, I know what that feels like as well. My mom's the same. Yeah.
Dan Murray-Serter: So annoying. Um, so I went, I went to the dietitian and she just said, um, take these supplements, right? Genuinely, she was just like, I'm going to prescribe you supplements. I'm going to prescribe you DHA omega-3, uh, blueberry extract and B vitamin complex. And I was like, why? I already take B12. It's the only supplement I took. Um, but as you know, if you're vegan, everyone tells you to take B12. And she was like, well, you know, yes, everyone gets told to take B12, but like that's just like scratching the surface of the things you're depleting yourself of. And also, by the way, your brain is basically made of DHA and you basically haven't had any in ages. And I was like, well, no, vegans get loads of omega, you know, the whole, vegans get loads of omega-3 and that's the first time she started explaining ALA, EPA, DHA to me, which again, means nothing to me then, but everything to me now. So a bit frustrated because I'm a little bit like, you know, again, talking about identity, you know, like vegans, you know, that is an identity.
Dr Rupy: It's a very strong pull for a lot of people.
Dan Murray-Serter: It's a strong pull, it's a community. I entered it from the angle of, and this is I think super interesting about veganism. Veganism is like, you know, a lot of people choose it for political reasons, environmental reasons. That's why I picked it. Not nutritional reasons. I never said vegan, no one ever told me that being vegan was healthier for me or was better for my health. So the lens I became a vegan at was environmental, I want to be a better person, I care about these things. It's millennial stuff. So I did that. And then the rabbit hole, the funnel you go in is like these are all of the nutritional benefits and advantages because now I'm just viewing things from the vegan world and that funnel down into these are all the reasons why being vegan is healthier for you. And like everything in the world, as I've learned, some might be true, some might not be true. Literally apply that thinking to anything and everything ever. There is no absolute truth in everything. If there was, we would really know what is best for us full stop. So, um, but quite far down the rabbit hole and enjoying the lifestyle. And she was just like, you know, if you think you get so much omega-3, why don't you tell me what you eat every day? And I just gave her my usual, you know, some falafels and some hummus and some tofu, loads of vegetables and stuff. And she's like, right. And where's that big plate of algae that you've been eating then? I'm like, well, I don't. And she's like, right, so you don't sit around eating seaweed all day. And I was like, no. But I had some flax seeds in my breakfast and she was like, oh. So I just,
Dr Rupy: I want to meet this dietitian.
Dan Murray-Serter: I know. And it's an NHS dietitian. She's just really, her name's Chloe. She was not very nice, but she was extremely sarcastic and exasperated with me. So I'm sitting there a little bit offended, obviously, but also desperate, right? I've not slept in so long. Um, and I'm super anxious as well because like I always just think I'm not going to go to sleep. It's all on your mind the whole time, which is just like a bit of a shell. Um, she, um, she just like, listen, just take these supplements. I'm going to prescribe them to you. You can't go to Boots or Holland and Barrett or any of the like high street places because they don't really give you what you need. You need high quality scientific dosages of these things. So don't skimp. This is exactly what you get. And you basically have to go to Whole Foods or Planet Organic to get it. Like you have to go somewhere like that or, you know, fancy. I was like, okay. So this is like a, the first time I'd ever heard about cheap supplements versus expensive supplements. A bit like when someone first explains wine to you. And you're like, oh god, I'm never going to buy a five pound bottle of wine again and realize that cost me one penny.
Dr Rupy: That's a very good analogy.
Dan Murray-Serter: It's the same thing. It's like, it's tax, it's quality. It's really interesting. So I I'd never, but it never factored in, especially as all, almost all supplements, like 99% of them are marketed cheap on the high street. So almost everyone buys them, right? So everyone's experience of buying supplements growing up and then ongoing is to buy cheap supplements and thinking that that is the normal price. Um, and I guess just to further that thought just to be clear, the reason is there is, as I've learned, there's a difference between the marketing amount that you can put in and make a claim and the scientific dosage. No difference between the two in what you can claim. So if you put the right amount in according to science, you can't say any more than putting way less in. And the example that's easiest to share is 7Cs because it's like no one's going to be offended because I'm not like slagging someone off. It's the biggest brand of omega-3s in the world. But they're, they're omega-3, they're DHA omega-3, because this is what she told me to watch out for. Um, you buy it in Boots or Holland and Barrett, it's 15 quid. And that's the number one best seller on earth. You get 45 milligrams of, of, um, omega-3 in there per day. But the scientific minimum dosage is 250. So you have to take that product for six days in a row just to get one day's worth of what you'd be recommended to take. But you don't see that as a consumer on the front. They legally have to say it on the back. So the interesting thing is when I share this on podcast or say it to anyone, they then go home and look at their back and they're like, oh man, it's been there the whole time in tiny print. But like we as consumers are not meant to know that.
Dr Rupy: We have to get used to reading nutrition labels on multiple products, let alone supplements.
Dan Murray-Serter: But it's a piss take. It's not, it's literally so not right. But this is a big scam. And like everyone's in on it. I don't, I don't get it. But anyway, this is like one of the reasons I think why people are like, you know, supplements don't work. I don't feel anything. There's no impact, etc. It's like, turns out the price is pretty much exactly the same at Planet Organic and at Boots. It's just that at Planet Organic, they wouldn't sell you the bad version. So it costs like 30, 40 quid each. Feels really expensive. So I went, I went to Planet Organic and I spent 120 pounds on these three supplements, which I was like, that is so much more than I thought supplements were. I've been getting my B12 from Holland and Barrett. What's going on? Um, but within a week it had worked. So, and when I say worked, so I had my first night's sleep at 7:00 a.m. And then like waking up at 7:00 a.m. and then next day was like 7:30, next day 7:30 and I was like, because the first day it happens, you're like, fluke. Um, but anyway, it kept happening. I was like, this is unbelievable.
Dr Rupy: And you were quite a skeptic at this point.
Dan Murray-Serter: I did not literally think, I thought supplements were nonsense. Um, but also like I've been given medication, but medication hadn't helped me like long term, right? So
Dr Rupy: Did you take the sleeping pills?
Dan Murray-Serter: Only once. Only once. But like because I I basically I like I was going on holiday and I was like, I literally I was just worried about how I was going to be. So I, um, I yeah, I've actually still got the, I think it's Valium. I've still got it at home what he gave me. You know, in case of emergency, but I don't know what that emergency is. But this is the thinking, right? Is like he'd given me a band-aid. But what I wanted was a solution, right? I wanted someone to stitch me up and say like over the long term, this is going to work and therefore this is a long-term thing. And especially like as an entrepreneur where you like, you understand the value of like building long-term, but a lot of things are short-term wins. And you start understanding your customer as well and you understand how many people search for the short-term win, sadly, on repeat, constantly failing at that short-term belief, like the limitless pill, right? So then we can talk about new tropics for example, but the idea that people have about like, you know, instant cognitive performance, like suddenly I'm going to be like Bradley Cooper. It's like,
Dr Rupy: What is the instant gratification culture that we've created as a as a product of everything that we have touched on social media and
Dan Murray-Serter: 100%. Like the dopamine hits, like, you know, they don't help. Um, but it's one big lie and it's a shame because the truth is actually out there anyway, which is that, you know, long-term improvements, they take a little bit longer, but they actually last for the long term too. So I called up this dietitian in amazement, excitement, all this stuff. I could not wait to tell her and she literally her answers were and I quote, yeah, I know. I was like, what do you mean? She was like, well, yeah, I told you they'd work. And and and it was like it was that moment when I literally that moment when I was like, I I want to work in this space. And the reason is because and she the next words that followed were like a bit more instructive, but she was like, listen, I am a medically trained nutrition professional, right? I went to medical school for four years and studied nutrition. Now I work in the NHS. You told me your symptoms, I told you and a dietitian cures sick people and you have a mental health disease. I cannot begin to tell you how many people come to me with mental health diseases, but especially vegetarians and vegans. And and mental health disease, you know, big words, like it doesn't have to be depression, right? We're talking insomnia, anxiety, um, brain fog, like all of the things, they are like variety, massive spectrum obviously of what we can define as a mental health problem. Um, she was like, it is so easy to diagnose people that have predominantly plant-based diets that don't supplement. It's very quick for me, 99% of the time I'm right. So I knew that this would work. So that was kind of the moment when I was like, I am one of those people who like is lucky in life to be in the 1% right? I run my own businesses, I choose my own path. I I actually thought I knew about food, right? Um, I chose a plant-based diet and it's worth saying now like I'm not vegan anymore, I'm vegetarian. It's a slight difference, but you know, still I've it's not like I suddenly was like, right, that's it. I'm going to eat meat and fish and all this stuff. Instead, I was like, well, I'm going to understand supplementation. I don't have to give up all my principles. Um, I can instead ask the dietitian what she thinks is a good diet for me based on what she's seen and what I'm low in, um, and then supplement the rest. And it was that like whole thing of I can't believe someone who is an expert knew and it was so obvious, but a doctor who's a different type of expert, never said go to a dietitian. That was not even suggested. And I don't think it would have been. And that's also why she was quite annoyed. Um, by the way. So, so that that that scenario plays out quite, quite a lot, I would say. Yeah. I mean, I mean
Dr Rupy: The doctors do not know and that's because like how I I listened on your podcast again, like, you know, literally, um, Dr. Sherzai who was saying, you know, you go through four or five years of indoctrination, um, and that your way is the way. But if you don't include more than three or four hours of nutrition on that, then how are you going to believe that omega-3s or supplementation can have these and that was talking about Alzheimer's, which again, we can we can talk about, but it's so interesting that if you don't get taught something, how sure you'd be that it doesn't work, which is not the same as being taught something that it does work.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, exactly. There's like a an inherent skepticism for anything that hasn't been covered in the medical curriculum, which is why, um, with with my nonprofit, I'm fighting very hard to to get nutrition as part of the core curricular across UK medical schools, as they are doing in the US currently.
Dr Rupy: So ridiculous you have to even argue for it.
Dan Murray-Serter: Well, exactly. Yeah. And and it's strange that, you know, if I hadn't been pushing this message over the last three, four years, and it's been a huge slog, we wouldn't have made a fraction of the improvements that we've already done thus far. And then also, I guess, you know, um, in in working in a collaborative manner is is quite foreign, I think for a lot of doctors across other professional professions, uh, in primary care when it comes to nutrition. With other stuff, you know, if you have a heart condition, yeah, sure. I mean, you go see your cardiologist, you go see your psychiatrist, if you have a mental health issue. But with nutrition, because we're not taught about it, we don't understand the value of registered nutritionists, dietitians, and all the other professionals that we have, we should have at our disposal. It it I should point out, you know, in the UK, we have about 5,000 registered dietitians. So the amount of workload if we were to start all of a sudden referring people to dietitians would be absolutely unsustainable. And the other thing is dietitians, particularly that one, will see the tip of the iceberg, I the really bad cases that have come through their doors. So I think for for her and for a lot of other people, it would be quite easy to just diagnose them like, that's a plant-based person, he's got insomnia, it's most likely a B12 or omega-3 issue. There were probably a whole load of other vegetarians and vegans that are thriving despite not having supplementation. And there is, there are, um, genotypes that thrive on the short chain omega-3 fatty acids because of the conversion rates and all the rest of it.
Dr Rupy: But that's a niche. It is a niche.
Dan Murray-Serter: You're right, but the thing that's actually quite annoying about vegan and vegetarian movement is that's unbelievably niche, but then it's used as the, as the example. Yes, yeah. And that's really bad because that's basically what people like I believe. Yeah. Um, that's like not even 1% of people that have that. And so there's very, it's like it's so completely rare. It's much more normal that you would not be able to process, uh, short chain omega-3s like everyone else and therefore should supplement. And that to me is like a perfectly responsible and reasonable way. And this is the thing that I find so odd. Isn't the goal of encouraging people to live more sustainably? So let's remove the label vegan and let's just say plant-based or more sustainable living. Isn't the goal to have more people sustain that lifestyle? Like most people that have an experience like I do go back to meat. So what is the point in educating someone like me so hard to then screw their health up so badly that they then literally believe a new truth, which is that plant-based is bad for me, therefore I eat meat. That is just like, the goal is, is to get more people to make more sustainable changes that they can live healthily with.
Dr Rupy: You see that being played out quite a bit in America. There's quite a few, um, vegan, ex-vegan doctors that have gone down that plant-only approach and then found themselves horrifilly deficient in a number of minerals and vitamins, led to symptoms and they've gone the other way, which has gone paleo or whatever, you know, and it's it's
Dan Murray-Serter: So OTT that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, exactly. And that's why you get these these fights that literally play out on social media. And then you have, you know, the public that are just trying to decide, okay, what should who should I be listening to? Am I going to be in this camp or that camp? Like what what what is the best way for me? Um, and I think, yeah, giving people options and at least highlighting to people that there are some symptoms that you should look out for if you choose to go 100% plant-based or not, um, before you entertain, you know, it as a long-term pragmatic decision for your health.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, totally. And this is the thing like, you know, it's an interesting one, but it just does never ever gets talked about as something for your mental health. Um, but it is clearly a thing and she pointed out it was and you know, obviously now that I was have been researching and uh, and creating these newsletters for Heights, um, you know, it comes up a lot. And actually, you know, nutritional intervention is plays a big part in things like, so, you know, not just speaking about mental well-being, but then talking about dementia and Alzheimer's. There's an amazing, um, bit of research being done at Oxford University by Professor David Smith. So he's the head of pharmacology there. Basically, he's got this, it's not out yet, right? So it's still halfway through the trials, but it's been going for like seven to 10 years already. So it's quite a long trial. And he has patients that he, um, like thousands, obviously, so it's a big study, uh, where he's been able to prove that a high dosage supplementation of B, uh, where is it? Oh, no, it's actually, it's B vitamin complex, um, and DHA omega-3 has reversed, not just stopped, um, Alzheimer's and dementia, like build up, like the towel, right, basically on the canopy, not just, um, stopped it, but started to reverse it. And that is, you know, and he his theory, and it's so interesting, but his theory is, you know, one of the things that happens obviously when you get Alzheimer's dementia is, you know, a lot of it's like location, spatial awareness and stuff that happens in the canopy and the towel break up or just basically stop the transmitters speaking to each other. So actually, if you look at it from a brain scan point of view, Alzheimer's makes loads of sense. It's plaque. So how do you stop the plaque? And so his whole thing is, well, um, everyone's brain, like fundamentally from the age of 25, everyone's brain is shrinking. And it shrinks from the canopy down, right? So the canopy being the outer layer.
Dr Rupy: I'm not saying this for you, by the way. Never, never remind me that I tried to explain this to a doctor. But, you know, so for the outer layer, like down. So like, you know, our job is to protect as much of our brain as possible. So therefore feeding it as regularly as possible is, is the right idea. And what is the brain hungriest for? Well, as our hungriest organ that, you know, takes up all of our energy, etc, really B vitamins and omega-3s when it all comes down to it, when it all is said and done, that is the majority of what it's like feeding on hungrily. Um, therefore the more that we can give it, the better it will be, the better fed it will be, and potentially what we can actually do is start to like reinvigorate some of those synapses.
Dan Murray-Serter: This is amazing. So I I I can't believe I haven't come across it. So David Smith, I've got to, I've got to look up the study. And were they established Alzheimer's patients before the trial started and they've been given
Dr Rupy: Well, he's got, he's got a variety. So what I'll do is I've got, um, actually, uh, to very niche, but on our Heights YouTube channel, I, it's bear in mind, so, okay, so I've got a video of him presenting this information. Um, and my caveat to you is like, uh, he's, it's, oh, and you're a doctor, so it's fine, but like it's quite stuffy. It's like, it's all in comic Sans. The whole presentation is in comic Sans font. It's not the most, you'll love it as an academic.
Dan Murray-Serter: It sounds like a normal academic conference.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's an hour long presentation that you will love, but we get lots of emails at Heights with people asking us like, will this help for Alzheimer's dementia, etc. And obviously we're very like, listen, you know, we're not making any medical claims. We wouldn't do that. But here's some research. And we were lucky enough to film this guy because he was doing this talk in London and I basically, as an entrepreneur, you do this, right? Like I'd followed his work. I was like, can we come and film it? We had no company, nothing. We literally just a newsletter. Can I pay for a videographer to come and just film your talk? And we'll put it on our YouTube channel. It was the first video that ever went on our YouTube channel. It's got like 200 views. No one watches it. But it's good for us to have it there as like a point. So if people say, is there a thing? It's like, listen, if you've got an hour to watch this video, these are all of his findings from his current study at Oxford University. So it's super, super interesting. I'm so glad we did that because you can't really get the, the stuff from the study because it's midway through the study. So there isn't like a published thing that's available to everyone, otherwise it would be highly impactful. But in this talk, you know, he does talk a lot about, um, the thing about supplements that's interesting is like they come from food, right? They come from nature. You can't patent anything that comes from nature. So it's very anti-pharmaceutical industry. And I'm not making a political statement. I'm literally trying to state a fact. Less so the UK, but certainly around the world, the medical industry is highly reliant on and in and and deeply intertwined with insurance industries and pharmaceutical industry. There's nothing we can do about that. They are a beautiful gift and curse. But it's stuck intertwined there. So there are, if you imagine lobbying, if you go up a level as well, there are plenty of financial and incentive reasons not to have people study nutrition, well-being and get off the healthcare system or sick care system if you will. Like well-being is a fascinating industry, uh, wellness, like amazing industry, 100% going to improve everyone's lives around the world. And I think it's so awesome the work that people like yourself and anyone that like goes on social media and talks about helping us like live healthier and happier does, but it is anti and threatening to the establishment and the established ways of working. And that's totally not to say we don't need doctors, we don't need hospitals, we need all that stuff. But this is kind of where, you know, when I was listening to that podcast from you again, this is where you understand some of the resistance. There is indoctrination. Um, it isn't intentional, it's systemic. It's the way the system works. And so, you know, why educate more people about nutrition? If pharmaceutical companies cannot monetize that, there is literally no incentive. And so it's quite hard when a whole global industry works that way and there are people working outside it and wondering why change is so hard to happen. Um, it's because there's like a million, um, unspoken, basically complicit deals and agreement that this is the way things are, so therefore this is the way they will always be.
Dr Rupy: Traditionally, uh, that's definitely the viewpoint, um, that has perpetuated throughout medicine, which is why we've essentially seen a pharmaceutical model of of healthcare. And that's why I believe in part why nutrition hasn't been looked upon favorably in the curricula. However, I think things are definitely changing. So to your point about investment in research, you know, during my masters, uh, um, University of Surrey, uh, the nutritional medicine masters that I'm doing, they've literally put grants in for millions of pounds and studied vitamin D and omega-3 as well with some positive as well as some negative results, as well as, uh, you know, things like, uh, supplementation with orange juice and vitamin C and all the rest of it. So there are some really interesting studies looking looking at that kind of stuff. Diet is traditionally very, very hard to do, as as you know. And just for the listeners, you know, it's exceptionally expensive. It's very hard to regulate. How do you choose the right macro combinations, calories, how do you make sure they eat it, how do you deliver it to them, etc, etc. Um, and then also, there is a a new sort of welcome discussion around nutrition amongst medics because we realize the root cause of a lot of the lifestyle related illnesses that we see in both emergency and community care, primary care, and, you know, secondary care as well, are caused by poor lifestyle. So we do need to entertain that that conversation. Um, so I think things are definitely changing for for the better in that respect. But it's how we do that. And I think one of the the issues with supplementation in general, and I'm glad we're having this this chat, um, is that it's seen as a bit of an elitist sort of, uh, cherry on top to an already healthy diet. And if you're rich, if you're you're wealthy enough to afford good food to put on your plate and then supplement on it, then you're not really the person that we're trying to look at. We're looking at, you know, the millions of people who are food insecure or who don't know anything about brain health and what a brain healthy diet looks like and, you know, are succumbing to high cholesterol and cardiovascular disease because of the food availability options that they have in their own communities.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, these are great points. Actually, there's a few things in there that are like super interesting to unpack. One of them, and I'm not a food expert, by the way, but as in not like in how they're grown and stuff. But one thing I will say that's so interesting, like earlier I told the story of how, you know, I end up buying my supplements in Planet Organic and they were extremely expensive, etc. Um, when I was further down the line, so after we developed our product, um, and, you know, I we developed it, yeah, again, very aware, not a nutritionist, not a neuroscientist. So the chair of the BDA, uh, you know, Sophie Medlin is our head of nutrition research, Dr. Tara Swart, that you've had on, you know, she's our chief science officer, you know, these are extremely, extremely credible people. You know, my job was like, who are the most credible people that you can get involved in designing a product like this and how and why do they choose these things and how do you get them to work together? Tara is a neuroscientist with a neuro pharmacology PhD and Sophie literally like works both in clinic and like understands formulation, but also as a chair of like dietitian association, like understands the do's and don'ts, right? And what high quality and low quality is. So it's really great to like work with them on product development. After we've done all of that, um, I then was looking for investment and I brought a product to the founder of Planet Organic. And it's one of my favorite customers for
Dr Rupy: Renee. Renee, yeah.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, do you know her?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I don't know her, but I've seen her speak many times.
Dan Murray-Serter: She's great. You should get her on the podcast, by the way. Um, for for for stuff like this, for what I'm about to tell you actually. I'll happily intro you. She's so cool and so interesting and so informed. Um, she's a really clever woman. Um, she said that, um, so, so firstly, I turned up at this like random place that she's picked. It was like super weird. Uh, like an army barrack type thing in the middle of London. I was like, this is like the least American thing. It's like so like old white English. I don't know what I'm doing here. Anyway, um, and she's like quite American and, you know, like confident and anyway, um, I turned up with my original receipt of my supplements, right? It was 120 pounds. And I showed her the 120 quid that I'd spent on these. And then I showed her what I'd put in like our smart supplement for Heights. And I was like, our product here, because of all the choices we've made, no caking agents, like blah, blah, blah. Um, 40 pounds a month and from 30 depending on your subscription, compared to 120 pounds in Planet Organic. And not only that, the amount of pills I'd have to take, right? Like for the same amount because of where we've sourced our ingredients. Um, she not only found it hilarious because it's a bit of a rogue move, right? She not only found it hilarious, she's literally been a customer ever since of our product with her five, like her husband, her three kids and her brother, basically. She bought subscriptions for all of them, has done for like 16, 17 months now. So like literally was one of our first ever customers. Does customer reviews for us. This is how funny she is. This is how yolo she is. She does customer reviews for us saying that our product is better than anything in Planet Organic.
Dr Rupy: No way.
Dan Murray-Serter: Um, and we only sell on our website because you can't sell in retail at this price. Because the thing is, if you sell in retail, again, sorry, slight meander, but if you sell in retail, um, you know, you have to give 50% of the margin to the company. So like, let's just play a theoretical here. If you sell a product for 20, if you sell a supplement in boots for 20 pounds, boots take about 10 pounds of it. There's 17% VAT on supplements, so 17% of that's gone. You're down to about 7.50. From the 7.50, you're taking like 30 or 60 pills a month. So work that out. And then also imagine that the company might want to make a profit. You know, there's like virtually nothing left. You know, so the numbers don't work. So selling direct to consumer means you can sell a product for 40, but it's really got the value of about 120. It just means you get a personal relationship with your customers. So I have this like joke with her. But the thing that she educated me on, and she's not vegan, right? So it's worth saying, like, because I, I had this sort of assumption that our product would be so much more interesting to vegans and plant-based people because they weren't getting the nutrients. So this is my opinion anyway, as someone who is like absolutely and has been for the last 20 years at the forefront of like the highest quality food sourcing in the whole country. Um, and she's like, I take it because I know that I can't get the nutrients I want out of my food. I want to, and I could maybe 20 years ago, but I know that I can't now. And so for me, like my diet, my diet choice, omnivore, mostly plant-based, but omnivore, actually irrelevant because whatever I picked, I would not be able to get all the actual nutrients that I need out of it. And I was like, I can't believe. Anyway, you should do a whole episode on that because how interesting is this idea of, um, eating great food, but sadly because of the way, even at Planet Organic, the way that we farm our food, like it's so deplete of the vitamins that we actually need. It's bonkers.
Dr Rupy: It's interesting. So, uh, we, um, we've done a couple of episodes with, uh, farmers and, um, I had a, uh, she, she did a, a major in, in particle physics and very, very clever, uh, woman. And, um, we were talking about the microbial diversity in the soil and how the degradation of that is going to lead to poor nutrient value in the actual plant and how with the excess use of harsh agro petrochemicals, um, it's degrading the quality of our, of our food. And it's quite a scary thought that we're going to have to, we're going to have to rely on supplementation to bring the population to a level of, um, sufficiency when it comes to micronutrients.
Dan Murray-Serter: It's sad. You know, it's worth saying like we, uh,
Dr Rupy: But I think that's quite, it's quite unsettling for a lot of people to hear that because
Dan Murray-Serter: Well, it, I mean, 100%, right? As in the, that is really not good news. I think the flip side that's interesting on, on supplementation price though, as well, is, you know, and our product's like definitely premium, right? As in most people, again, if you, like, it goes from 30 pounds a month, so it goes from 1 pound a day. There's two ways of looking at that. Like 1 pound a day might sound too expensive, but 1 pound a day is also not much compared to, I mean, obviously London coffee is a silly example, right? But what are all the things that you can buy for 1 pound a day that aren't actually as good as giving your body, like all the nutrients, body and brain, the nutrients that you need that day to thrive according to science. Like that's actually quite cheap if you look at it on that basis. The problem is the comparison basis isn't the everyday things. The comparison basis is a, the cost of other supplements, and b, like you have rightly pointed out, it's on top of the food. It's on top of the things that I was already doing to, I hope, be healthy. That can be quite frustrating for people.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I think so. And I think also, um, we're comparing it to, to the same sort of food and nutrition category, whereas actually, when you look at other premium products, whether it be a phone or skincare or, you know, the premium shampoo that you use and stuff. I think we're more willing to pay for those sorts of things.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because, uh, this has been our big challenge. So our big challenge at Heights is this is a launch product. So our first product is a smart supplement for brain health and mental well-being, right? So just like a quick explanation of what that is, we put the 20 key nutrients that your brain needs to thrive from omega-3s on the outside, EPA and DHA omega-3 in the scientific dosages, of course. Um, that's on an outer capsule. The inner capsule, like basically 18 key nutrients in again, the right dosages. And what's really cool about what we do, I don't know if I've ever told you this, we update our formula all the time.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Dan Murray-Serter: Oh, I didn't know that. Um, yeah, so basically, um, and and we find really smart ways to do new things. I'm I'm super excited about this. So, um, if you buy a supplement that sits in a cupboard, right? So it sits in a store shelf for two years, we make all of ours to fresh to order based on three-month productions of growth. And the reason, one of the reasons we do that is because actually ingredient manufacturers constantly upgrade the potency of their ingredients. So just to give you one example, our blueberry extract, which is from an like Italian farm, we also source it from all over the world. So our algae oil is from, because it's all plant-based, obviously. Um, but our algae oil is from Nova Scotia in Canada because that's like where the best quality algae gets made. So that's where we source it from and it's all sustainable, etc. But the blueberry extract is from Italy, so like the Italian farms there. What happens when they, um, to improve their formula, basically you get more potency. When you get more potency, you take up less space. A capsule can only have so much space. So the thing with Heights is our product is two capsules a day because you can't fit everything into just one, that's impossible. We fit it into two. And what that means is when you do have something like, um, your blueberry extract getting more potency, so our, which is an antioxidant, so anthocyanin, but we have the equivalent of 25 blueberries a day because that's how many you should have for promoting healthy brain function, right? So you have the exact right amount of antioxidant that equates to 25 blueberries. When that amount can shrink, it makes some space. And when it makes some space, you can do things like up the vitamin C. And so like you can constantly tweak the formula. And the new thing that we're doing, which is super cool, I'm really excited about in the next batch, um, is actually we're injecting more vitamin D into the outer capsule because now of all the scientific studies with with COVID. So what we learned about our own customers is that they were taking Heights, but they were also after they've done blood tests and recommended to see dietitians. So like the more informed ones were finding out that they should also take more vitamin D because COVID, right, has become the new thing. As you know, there's lots of evidence around it. So that's given us a really good use case to say, well, we we can literally fit in more vitamin D now. We just haven't because we're trying to go on what the science says. But as the science gets updated and the ingredient manufacturers enable you this, like it's really cool to have a dynamic product. So instead of constantly bringing out new products all the time, we use a like a tech company approach to say we can continually improve the product we have with the information available, which changes, right? When we started, COVID was never a thing. So the vitamin D thing was, you put in the right amount for brain health, not the right amount for COVID. But if you have the space and you can do it two in one and it's helpful for people and the science is there and the recommendations are there, you can do it. So that's like one of the cool things that we do that I'm like
Dr Rupy: That's a really cool software analogy. I appreciate that.
Dan Murray-Serter: It's cool, right? As in no one, no one does that. So we think that's really cool. We just never talk about it ever. And the reason we don't talk about it, except for like on a podcast like this, is because if you land on the Heights website, and this was the point I was going to say, if you land on the Heights website, um, what is the most important thing that we can communicate to you? It isn't that we're a better supplement than other supplements. It isn't that we have this incredible, like we source ingredients from all over the world. It isn't that we update the ingredients. It's that you don't know that you don't take care of your brain. Like most of us take our brains for granted. And so the single most important thing that we can do on the Heights website is help you understand how taking care of your brain is an important thing to do. That's the goal at Heights. And the reason we think about like our messaging hierarchy, right, is like the, the reality is if you are, um, you use the analogy of skincare, right? You said skincare earlier. Most people are looking for quick fixes, as we discussed earlier. The thing that skincare is awesome at, skincare, hair care, oral care, nail care, like these are industries where we've grown up with and we understand that a little bit every single day stops the decay, keeps us vibrant, keeps us fresh. It's for longevity. These industries have done an amazing job at saying, you're not going to put on cream today and glow tomorrow. Like that's not how it works. But like a bit of moisturizing every day, you'll have good skin, you'll get less wrinkles when you're older in 20 years. No industries do that. Like no industries are good at explaining the long-term benefits, right? And then trying to prove them out. That's where we defined brain care. Because we're like, there is no industry, like brain health makes people just think about Alzheimer's. Mental health just makes people think of psychological diseases and problems that are incurable or have to go to therapy and like it's so broad. It's it's a stigmatized term sadly and people do not, they react in such unpredictable ways to the term. So we're like, let's define our own category. Let's make it brain care, which is essentially the wellness version of skincare for looking after your brain, which is that a little bit every single day will make a dramatic impact on your life over the short term and long term. And so we start with this supplement, we have like a whole, a whole company vision is on creating products, services, content and community that are all around the different various angles around brain care, right? So, um, that's the thing that like motivates us every day and that's why, you know, we say we're not a supplement company, even though we make a supplement. This is one of the reasons why we don't focus on PR, comms, um, shitting on competitors or do you know like there's nothing like I say this stuff on the website, sorry, I say this stuff on a podcast if we're talking about it, but it's not on the website. It's not important to communicate to a customer. The important thing is your brain probably, and we did do a study on this with 2,000 participants, 99% of people did not follow anywhere close to a brain healthy diet. So the mind diet, right? 99% of people out of 2,000 in the UK. So unless you're in that 1%, you probably do not look after your brain's health on a daily basis. And products like this can help. That's really the job to communicate.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a very simple message and, uh, and really important. And it again, it kind of circles back to what we were talking about earlier about community and how that's difference to an audience, the difference between that and an audience. I wanted to circle back even further actually and go and discuss your own personal issues with with mental health because it wasn't, it didn't start with insomnia, did it? It was there were some other issues.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, well, I've had, I've had a few. So it's interesting because I've had a few, uh, I've sort of unpacked more after the fact. So the most obvious one was depression, but it was after my father passed away. So I think that's pretty normal. And I think this is worth saying as well, you know, we're speaking in mental health awareness week, obviously it's not going to be published this week, but I think it's really worth saying how, um, like to me, a lot of the mental health diseases that or issues that I've faced, like I don't feel weird about having them. I feel like almost in a way of if I didn't, then like how human would I be? I feel like, you know, mental health spectrum, downs as well as ups is extremely part, extremely important part of the rich tapestry of life. And it's nice to avoid them 100%, like it's nice to avoid pain in our lives, 100%. But I do think that, um, we're doing such a better job now of like destigmatizing the stuff 100%. But I do think it's odd that we even need to destigmatize some of these things, right? So having depression after like your best friend in the world, which was my dad passes away for six months, I mean, I almost like would look back on that and be surprised if I didn't, if that makes sense.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I remember having conversations with with patients actually about, um, you know, their experiences after bereavement and a lot of people actually with the knowledge that they are that they're experiencing depression symptoms will seek antidepressants because it's seen as something that is no longer acceptable in society to experience because we have these medications and we should we should be at a level of, uh, um, happiness or contentment the whole time. Whereas in reality, what what people experience, as I'm sure your experience was, is a normal reaction to a bereavement, a normal reaction to, uh, an issue that's going to affect everyone throughout their life.
Dan Murray-Serter: That's it, right? And that's exactly my thinking is that it's normal. So, you know, one of the things is I've had, I had chronic anxiety with my insomnia. Um, and again, it's worth say like reflecting, you know, at the time I was taking supplements that weren't heights, like they were what's in heights eventually, right? But I was religiously taking these supplements and I remember being so stressed building up the newsletter and into like, you know, is anyone going to invest in us? Like where are we going to find a supplier? Like who, you know, who's going to help us? You know, this is before I knew Tara or Sophie or anyone, right? Just like stress, imposter, like where am I going, what am I doing? How am I going to do this? All those questions. And I remember being like reflecting and being like, I'm so, so, so less anxious. It's unbelievable. Like as in I'm having these questions, but I'm not like breaking out in hot sweats. I'm not really uncomfortable the whole time. I was like really remember reflecting at the time at how much I felt that supplements had massively impacted my anxiety. Now, that being said, that was after an impact of like chronic anxiety, right? So real hot and cold sweats, panic attacks, etc, which I did get and I've had it in a board meeting, which is just unbelievably funny and embarrassing at the same time. Funny to reflect on, embarrassing at the time. Um, the the normal sense of anxiety, again, if you're an entrepreneur, like, or you work in any industry where you have to think about the future, how could you not be anxious? That's my question. Is then like, I think anxiety is not part of everyone's life, but needs to be normalized as well to an extent. Now, chronic like I suffered badly, that that is unlivable with, so it needs to be treated and you need to find a solution. General anxiety, um, my personal experience of it, again, just sort of makes me human, right? I think Eckhart Tolle has this like fantastic statement on stress and anxiety where he says, um, stress and anxiety is a symptom of being here, but wanting to be there. But you can never be there. That's a fact. You can never, ever be there. You can only be here. So the sooner you realize that, the less you'll spend time being anxious about the future. And I was like,
Dr Rupy: That, yeah. It's so goddamn true. Like we spend so much time forecasting the future, but
Dan Murray-Serter: I don't know if you've read the Power of Now, but
Dr Rupy: I've, I've read it. I need to reread it. You just reminded me now.
Dan Murray-Serter: It's just wonderful. And for anyone, for anyone listening that has issues with anxiety, the Power of Now is such a powerful book. Every sentence just reminds you of the insanity, as he he defines it, you know, we literally live in an insane person's world. What we've normalized in society is insane because the only sanity is living in the now because it is the only reality. Like we can't wish it was the past, we can't wish it was the future. None of that would change anything. So the sanest thing to do is to accept that you're in the present moment. And like these thoughts, the way that he articulates them, they do really help. I find them very powerful. Um, so yeah, the other one I think is worth saying, um, which I only reflected on like a long time after. So only in the last six months was that I actually had bulimia. Um, and I didn't realize it. And it's very interesting because I, I had it for like 10 years, maybe more, from like 17 to, yeah, like, you know, 25, 26. And I went to the doctor a lot for it. Um, but and here's the technical thing. I actually asked Sophie about this. I technically can't call it bulimia because I never made myself throw up. So I had, and this is where it's interesting, like a psychological, mental health reaction to it. So I grew up fat and then I went on a massive diet, lost all my weight, but then from like the age of 17, like I only ever saw myself as a fat person. I've never put my fingers down my throat ever, but there was just this period where I couldn't keep food down. And not all my meal, but like most of it. And it, you know, it became a completely normal part of my life. It was totally something I was able to live with, but you know, as we were talking about before we started recording, you know, I mentioned I had a pneumomediastinum, like a hole in my throat. It's from acid reflux. I've torn my, um, my throat so badly. I've eroded it so badly. I once had a coughing fit and it was the final little tear that happened.
Dr Rupy: Wow. That's very, I've never heard of that.
Dan Murray-Serter: It's super niche. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: But so I went to
Dan Murray-Serter: Because that, that, that demonstrates just how chronic an issue this must have been.
Dr Rupy: Right. And this is the thing, I went to plenty of doctors and, uh, and I had all the gastroenterology exams and they never found a problem with me. And that was the most annoying thing because you're like, I'm, I'm literally sitting here telling you, I'm over embarrassment, like, I throw up, I throw up this morning, I'll throw up at lunch, and I'm not trying to, like, it's got to be something. And they were like, I mean, it has to be psychological. Like, there is nothing physically wrong with your body. So
Dan Murray-Serter: On reflection, when they were saying to you, this has to be psychological, what was your reaction to that?
Dr Rupy: Uh, ignored it, didn't think about it as mental health. I honestly cannot begin to express. Do you know what my trigger was? I did a newsletter on, I did a, a newsletter because I was interviewing Rhiannon Lambert and so I was like reading more about nutrition and stuff and I literally was like, I'm going to just do a newsletter on, on nutrition. It's the fastest way for me to learn because I have to force myself for a day to just sit there and write this newsletter and read. So I was like, that would be the best way of doing it. And as I was reading this stuff, and I was like, huh, wait a minute, that's kind of like what I did. And I just went on this like rabbit hole and I suddenly was like, oh my god, that's like so ridiculous that I basically just passed that off as like this inconvenient experience over a decade, pretty much, where it's actually, you know, that was a mental health problem that I never labeled as one, never came to terms with. It's basically bulimia, but, you know, if Sophie's listening, yes, I heard you. It's not bulimia. I didn't put my fingers down my throat. Don't worry. But, you know, there isn't like a term for it. But yeah, I just did not register. So only on reflection. And I think that's one of the interesting things about mental health is how you can live with something and not even know you've got it, so to speak. Like there's sort of awareness is not there. It's just what you're doing. And life is uncomfortable for many of us. And so sometimes you count your blessings that like this is your greatest discomfort because there are much worse ones, right? That's kind of how I approach everything. Whatever happens to me. So I imagine over like the 10-year period, I was just like, well, at least I can eat, you know? So it's really interesting, you know, like I've got a friend with Crohn's, right? Like my existence of like throwing it up is a lot better than his existence of like not being able to eat whole food.
Dr Rupy: Did you ever get to the root cause of why that was happening?
Dan Murray-Serter: No, it just, it just stopped eventually.
Dr Rupy: It just, it just stopped.
Dan Murray-Serter: By the time I was 30, I wasn't doing it anymore, but it was almost all all of my 20s.
Dr Rupy: Wow. Wow. Wow. That's, uh,
Dan Murray-Serter: So a myriad, a myriad of, uh, of, of mental health conditions. But like, do you know what, like, honestly, the worst one full stop was insomnia. And the reason for that was because I couldn't explain it.
Dr Rupy: I mean, sleep deprivation is one of the worst things that people can endure. I mean, I think it's, uh, something that's banned as, as, uh, well, it's
Dan Murray-Serter: Like smoking cigarettes and stuff.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can't do experiments where you deprive people of sleep for more than a certain amount. It's a very small amount.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, well, that's the thing. So like when I asked sleep experts and stuff, uh, you know, as well, I did a great one on sleep and nutrition on Clubhouse actually, and they both agreed, like, you know, what's worse, um, not eating for a period of time or not sleeping, you die if you, you die much faster if you don't sleep.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, we're, we're evolutionarily adapted to famine. So we, we can actually withstand a long period of time comparatively without food, but if you deprive of a sleep, then, yeah, it's
Dan Murray-Serter: Fascinating.
Dr Rupy: It is, it is absolutely fascinating.
Dan Murray-Serter: We also just again, like,
Dr Rupy: Because we still don't know why we sleep. I mean, like there are so many questions as to why, why in a world where we're constantly surrounded by predators, that we would have a drive to sleep for 12 hours a day, ideally 12 hours a day. You know, it's, it's, or maybe not 12 hours, but you know, 9 to 10 hours.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, a lot. I was going to say if you sleep 12 hours. I only got seven hours last night.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. That's a decent amount. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, and again, it's so interesting because that is the number one, um, you know, again, we were talking earlier on, um, on quality as well. That's the number one bit of feedback we get on our product, which is like nice for me because I started with insomnia, right? So for me, I'm like, well, I already know that use case, but it's good to know that like other people like feel that too. So I think it's really like really interesting again that the, the like lack of, um, knowing how nutrition can impact something like sleep. And and all of these things play out, right? So, you know, people recognize the sleep thing the most, um, but actually what does more sleep then give you? Well, more energy in the day. Well, then what does more energy in the day give you? Well, more productivity, like clearer thoughts, more ability to like rise up and think about the things. So I think, you know, these things are like obviously an upward cycle system. Um, um, I think one of the things that's like fascinating and in supplements, like in in the area in general, is I guess ours is quite rare in the sense that like because we designed it specifically with an outcome in mind. So when you buy supplements, you buy omega-3, vitamin D, buy all these niche like random ones, multivitamin, right? It's like, you know, what's, you know, if you ask people that aren't doctors or aren't informed like, why are you buying that? It's hard for someone to say why.
Dr Rupy: Just in case.
Dan Murray-Serter: Yeah, like I heard, I heard I should or whatever.
Dr Rupy: When you design something for brain health, mental well-being, like it's very specific. You're choosing ingredients that like the papers contribute, like there's a good reason why. And then what's really interesting at that point is like then outcome becomes the predictable expectation. So as an example, um, and I'm very, very, very proud of this, but like we're the number one rated supplement on Trustpilot now. Um, which is pretty good going after just 18 months in, in the world. Um, the reason, because they told us this, I mean, you can see it's all public. So the thing about Trustpilot is like you can't fake it. Like, you know, people basically, you know, give good, all the bad reviews you get go up. Like there is no like, can you take this down? It's brutal Trustpilot. Um, so one of the interesting things is like most of the reviews of other supplement brands on Trustpilot are all about the product service or, um, sorry, the service or the people or the brand, right? Great brand, good communication, lovely customer service, etc. All of our reviews are about, it's been helping me sleep better. This has got rid of my brain fog. Like absolutely, you know, it's like actual detail outcomes that people are feeling from being on a product. That is like ideal and that's so rare in supplements. And like, why does that happen? A, communicating with your audience that are buying, like, that this isn't a quick fix. So like setting expectations, like one to three months, right? So one to three months, like give it some time and patience. That's super important. So again, we're not here for the quick buck. Like we turn away people. Don't buy it if that's what you're expecting today. It's going to waste your time. So setting the expectation, and then obviously like the sourcing, the quality ingredients and making sure there's like an impact in someone's life and actually following up with them. So that's a really cool thing about, you know, having a, as I was mentioning earlier about being an outsider in an industry, like you can approach the whole thing differently, right? So like how we make it, how we communicate with customers, the fact that we don't sell it in retail, we only sell it on our website so that we can keep the margins down but give back to the customers, designing the the packaging, the bottle completely differently through the letter box. All of these things are like, and then obviously like, you know, the the email communication that comes with it, right? It's actually explaining to people where they are on their journey, how they can improve, other things that they can do for their brain care. 90% of the comms that we share with our audience are things we can't monetize. Like, they're free, right? You know, it's mental health awareness week this week. Like, all we're doing is talking about going out in nature and going for a walk. There's no like, take a supplement. It's irrelevant. It's literally an irrelevant conversation for this week. It's like, we know the most important thing we can do is make people feel good. So all of our social activity is based around helping people understand go for a walk, helping people understand to breathe, right? If they're feeling anxious, like these are, you can't monetize breath unless you're James Nestor. Um, but otherwise it's difficult.
Dr Rupy: Thanks so much for listening to the episode. I will see you here next time and do check out those links on the doctorskitchen.com. You'll find the lecture by Professor David Smith of Oxford University talking about vitamins and dementia and also a whole bunch of other links that Dan has actually written including blog articles and the post that went viral on LinkedIn and Twitter. I will see you here next time.
