Dr Rupy: The latest stats are about one in eight people experience food insecurity. And so if you think of any room of people that you know, that's that brings it really home and very close. That child who starts the day with a grumbling stomach cannot focus on those kind of four hours of lessons before lunch. And some of our teachers tell us that they notice kids glancing at the clock or kind of going to the door to see if it's lunchtime. Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life. Ending childhood hunger. This is one of the most pressing conversations of the moment. The extent of childhood hunger and food insecurity that exists not in third world countries, but right here in the UK is absolutely astounding. One in eight people deem themselves food insecure and when you couple that with the fact that a third of food is wasted along various parts of the supply chain, you see this big issue, this huge opportunity to make change. Now, to open up this discussion, I'm inviting representatives from two incredible organisations working to tackle these issues in their unique ways for a fairer and more compassionate society, one where nobody is left unseen nor hungry. And rather than complaining or just pointing out a desperate situation, I really want to shine a light on these incredible charities. So first I speak with Alison Walsh. She's commercial director with responsibility for fundraising, marketing, communications and volunteering at FareShare. She's got 25 years of experience in the food and retail sector and so she possesses an incredible wealth of industry and consumer knowledge that she is bringing to FareShare. And later in the pod, I also speak with Emily Fretza, a former primary school teacher and Alyssa Remtulla from Magic Breakfast, a registered charity providing healthy breakfasts to children in the UK who arrive at school too hungry to learn. We talk about the foundations of both charities and the scale of the issue in food insecurity amongst children and families in the UK. There are two million children in the UK that suffer hunger and Magic Breakfast, for one, extend their expert support to their partners across almost a thousand different schools, including primary, secondary, special educational schools and pupil referral units in the most disadvantaged areas of England and Scotland. We talk about the overview of the problem, what we mean by food insecurity, what that means and how much of an issue it is and how it's increased since the pandemic. But we also make sure that you know this is not a pandemic issue. This is very much a pre-pandemic problem that has extended for the last few decades. We also talk about how to tackle the stigma surrounding food insecurity and the logistical issues around food redistribution. And also, and this is perhaps the main point, how to get involved with both FareShare, Magic Beans and other charitable organisations doing fantastic work across the UK and beyond. So if you're interested, I would highly recommend you check out the show notes on the doctorskitchen.com, sign up to the newsletter and we'll give you more ways in which to interact with these wonderful initiatives. But for now, I hope this is enlightening and educational and also it gives you some hope that something is being done about what is otherwise quite a desperate situation that is only getting worse. I hope you enjoy the pod. Alison, thank you so much for making the time in your schedule to chat with me on the pod today. I'm super excited to talk about this subject and to talk a bit about you, if that's all right.
Alison Walsh: That's absolutely great and thank you for inviting me and FareShare on. It's a wonderful opportunity.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. Well, why don't we talk a bit about yourself to start off with, as your executive position in the in the charity and your background is is really varied and you might look at your background in terms of the brands that you've worked with and think that's quite it's quite premium. What are you doing in a in a food insecurity charity and you know, how is your journey through that? But why don't we touch on that and your experience in the food industry at large?
Alison Walsh: That would be great. Well, to to start off with, there is a Barbra Streisand song and I forget the actual title of it, but the words of it are something like, I wouldn't change a single thing that's happened over all of my life because it got me here to you. It's a love song. And I do rather feel like that about FareShare. I've had 25 years of solid marketing and sales and and comms communications in a variety of organisations like you say, but it it's all brought me to FareShare through a love of food. My role at FareShare, and I think I've been here five years this week. So it's a fantastic anniversary to have. I'm commercial director and I oversee everything that's marketing, fundraising and volunteering. And the idea really behind that is is that whatever ask you have of somebody, whether it's for their time to volunteer or some sort of support, or even to make a donation, it's a very similar sort of connection, communication and and ask. So you do it in a similar sort of way. So for for me that really matches all of my skill sets. But the whole passion around everything that's food and the injustice of people not being able to access food or not being able to enjoy food when food is something that you know, we celebrate birthdays with or you know, you sit around the table and you relax and you chat with people, food is there at the heart of everything we do. And for that not to be possible for so many people in the UK was so wrong for me that when I saw the vacancy come up with FareShare, it was something I wanted to do. But I've worked in retailers and and mass food producers and I saw that there was surplus and no one ever sets out to create surplus, it's just a byproduct of mass food production and and that's what the UK has. So the idea of being a bit like a Womble and turning that surplus or that waste into treasure, which is so valued and so needed was just a fantastic opportunity and that's what I love about FareShare. It's taking something that one part of the industry doesn't need anymore and it's safe to eat and it's delicious and it's it's food that you and I would have at home in our fridges. There's nothing remotely bad or off about it, but turning it into social good is just the most brilliant but actually very simple concept and and that's why it works so well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean it's it's fascinating to I I love I love the analogy by the way, the Womble. I'm going to use that for sure. But it's for me it's it's it's interesting to see where the the attraction is from from someone who's come from a larger commercial sort of sphere to move into something that's charitable. A lot of people on the face of it might think, oh, it's a bit of a step down almost, but actually, you know, it's an opportunity to contribute in such a grand way. And I think we it's almost a metaphor for how we should look at charities at large because I think we need to see charitable organisations as incredible organisations that add value to people's CVs rather than something that you do if you have time to.
Alison Walsh: I think that's a really interesting thought and I I'm conscious that maybe in previous generations going to work for a charity is maybe something that people might have done later in life rather than it being a career choice. And and I think we're in a different place now. And certainly for me, it was having the experience of seeing the art of the possible and the potential because I would walk into rooms, real massive chiller rooms full of pasta drying and knowing that a third of that wouldn't actually end up on the table somewhere and that was just the nature of needing to produce enough to get it to a distribution centre for a retailer on time in the right sort of quantities and then onto the shelves so there was enough choice for consumers. You have to go big to to meet all of those needs and yet knowing that actually all the nutrients that go into making that food and all of the time and the effort and the energy wouldn't actually get onto somebody's table. There's another option or there's another avenue to be taken with that food. So for me it was a brilliant opportunity of taking some real work life experience but then bringing it to a charity who could then use it in a different sort of way. So I I suppose it's sort of using resources in a different way.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's it's almost like, you know, how an entrepreneur spots an opportunity. You're looking at an issue in the marketplace or an untapped opportunity, an untapped sort of resource that you can redistribute and yes, you can make money from it, but also you can actually utilize it for social good, which is exactly what FareShare is doing. But before we we go into FareShare's activities, I want to know a bit more about your personal experience in the food industry. Well, where did you get started?
Alison Walsh: Well, actually, I did start at the very beginning in shampoo because those were the days when if you wanted to get into marketing, you went into sort of the beauty products and you know, shampoo, those sort of big brands. So really that that was to cut my teeth and to get those commercial skills because I did apply to a charity just after leaving university and they said, actually, can you go get some commercial skills and come back to us in a couple of years time? So that was exactly what I did. And and taking those different elements of commercial experience and I worked on shampoo with Tesco, with Marks and Spencers, with Asda. So that real retailer experience has stood me in very good stead coming round now and still working with those exact same retailers but from a very different point of view. But yes, I started off in shampoo, went into a cancer charity because that's that's what I wanted to do, got some experience there, missed some of my French because I studied French at university and had worked with French companies at my first job and then moved into wine glasses and wine because those are obviously related. But all the time was was volunteering for charities all the way through because I did want to live a life with, you know, mission and things that I believed in that perhaps working in shampoo doesn't always give you. And then had a a really sort of sensible path into the food industry. I worked on ready meals at Sainsbury's and for a brilliant food company called Belazu who do lovely oils and balsamic vinegars and things like that.
Dr Rupy: I really like Belazu, they've got really good quality products, yeah.
Alison Walsh: They do. They've also got a great CSR program and they fund education schemes in Morocco. So it's all about giving back to the communities that help give you, you know, the product that you can then sell to consumers. So I love that combination of not just taking from the ground but giving something back to communities as well. So a real sort of history of sort of intertwined passions and and career at the same time. And then then into sort of high retail at Fortnum and Mason, which was great. And you know, their Christmas is is like no other. And then after that saw saw FareShare and that really, really sort of spoke to me.
Dr Rupy: It's it's interesting to note that your career has has had charitable involvement peppered throughout it. I wonder where that that sort of need for mission and and need for purpose sort of came from. Is that something that was instilled in you throughout childhood or some experiences?
Alison Walsh: I would say sort of coming into A level years, I I became more aware of the injustices of of life, set up an Amnesty International society at school and then during my time at university was part of the Amnesty group. All of my closest friends there were part of the apartheid groups. Many people were vegan and actually they remain my closest friends today. So I think politically and campaigning, that was what united us and was at the heart of what really made us tick. So I think it's great that we all have that in common still.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. Oh, that's fascinating because it it just seems as if like that might have been the case considering the number of times you've you've sort of dipped in and out of charitable work and stuff. So I I've got this image of you now, Roger A levels, you know, campaigning and getting political and you know, looking at injustices.
Alison Walsh: I'm sure lots of students do do sort of want to save the world and it's just it's finding the right way of doing that. And and just to to give an insight, you know, during this this long career I I've had, there were points where I felt really challenged around what I was doing for my work and whether that was giving me my sense of purpose. So I did have some bit of coaching, a bit of mentoring and did one of those visual boards about what is it that's important to you. And I couldn't quite express what it was that I thought I wanted, but I drew a picture of a nun because to me that represented service. And I don't know about the chastity or some of those other elements of it, but but for me that being of service is is very much what I do want to do and so even though I work for FareShare, I volunteer in in lots of other things in my my own life as well and I think that's that's just what makes us all tick really. And particularly this past year, everyone's everyone's done something really helpful for communities.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely, yeah. I I think, you know, this year on a global scale, no no one ever has felt so much empathy for other people and actually become privy to, you know, how privileged we are, but but also, you know, the the opportunities for giving are huge as well. I I wonder when you did your vision board, how long ago was that?
Alison Walsh: About six years ago.
Dr Rupy: Okay, yeah, because I I had a friend of mine, Dr Tara Swart on the podcast recently. She's written a book called The Source and it's all about the science behind manifesting your perfect life. So it's what it's described as it's kind of like the secret but the science version because she's a psychiatrist and she's studied neuroscience and she lectures at MIT and stuff. So it's it's a very interesting because I've started vision boarding myself and it's I I I've come up with with strange analogies as well, maybe not as as out there as a nun, but one of the things is a mountain and just this this mountain comes up and I and I feel it's like, you know, I'm trying to climb something, I'm trying to achieve something that appears to be a mountain at this point in time. What that what's on the other side of that mountain, I'm yet to discover, but it's interesting you mentioned that.
Alison Walsh: Yes, well I wouldn't claim to be any expert or or particular believer in summoning things and that side of it, but I I do believe there's got to be something around if you become more conscious of what it is you're looking for, you become more aware of those opportunities and where to find them. So also on my my vision board, I had a baguette, so something to do with food and a mouth and to do with talking and communication. So, so really the FareShare scenario matched all of those things and and therefore it was easier when it came along to understand that that's why I thought it would be right for me.
Dr Rupy: Wow, well whether anyone believes in manifesting your dreams or not, it sounds that anecdote sounds pretty convincing for me.
Alison Walsh: Well, and I I'll be handing out the name of my my coach and mentor at the end of this.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, please do, please do. I'm really interested in in in how coaching and mentoring actually helps. I mean, I I've got a coach at the moment. I never thought I'd say that, you know, as someone who works in the NHS and you know, just medicine and stuff, I wouldn't feel the need for a coach, but I I found it absolutely profound what comes up in the discussions, just having a soundboard that someone far enough removed from you such that they don't have those preconceptions of what you should be doing or what they think that you should be doing. I I think it's really liberating.
Alison Walsh: It's so liberating. It takes you away from the friend conversations that you have where someone will say, of course you're wonderful for that with, you know, without the filter on there. And the other side of someone who holds you to account to say, well, you said you really were interested in this, but nothing you've chosen over the past five applications demonstrates that. So it's a great independent reaction to what it is that that you're discussing. So I I think it's a great opportunity if people can.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely, absolutely. And I think there's there's tons of opportunities to connect with people these days across the UK. You know, there's there's a new platform called Clubhouse, which is all, I don't know if you've come across it yet, but it's it's kind of like Twitter, much less noisy and everything's audio. So you you go into rooms and you listen to people talking about a certain subject matter and it it it leaves one-to-one conversation that people can listen to rather than complete chatter that you know, where you're being bombarded by adverts and stuff. And I I I find it a lot more relaxing and environment rather than traditional social media at the moment. I think that's definitely going to be the future for social media in anyway.
Alison Walsh: That sounds interesting and it's another avenue for exploring and I did some, you know, group coaching where we were blindfolded in a room with string going round it. I don't know if you've done anything like that. No, no, no, no. It it was hilarious and it it taught me one thing which was having a blindfold on and going through a room of string that you have to follow in order to get to the gem or the treasure of whatever it is, which is finding what you need. The best thing to do is to put your hand up and say, I need help, I'm stuck, I'm lost, because that's the quickest, most efficient thing to do rather than keeping following the string because someone else will know something or they'll know someone and and that's where just not not just trying to find your own solutions all the time yourself is where stepping out and having some of that coaching or group work or whatever it is is really helpful. So often in projects, I think to myself, stop following the string, Alison, put your hand up, ask ask around, see who knows what and and that sounds great in terms of Clubhouse as well as maybe those are those sorts of opportunities but just done virtually.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I wish I could do one of those group therapy sessions right now. Unfortunately, probably COVID restrictions will prevent that from happening anytime soon. But I I think that's another reason why I enjoy doing the pod where I can have a one-on-one conversation with with someone, but but also listening to pods. I I I listen to pods almost every day around subject matters and I think it's that that pared down platform where you can just listen to a singular conversation at one time. It's quite novel in today's day and age where everyone's shouting for your attention. So if you just have that pod, you know, it's it's almost like a bit of an escapism for me.
Alison Walsh: Absolutely. And it goes back to what probably radio was at the beginning, which is this friendly voice in your ear telling you something interesting that you will take away. And I know then it's got broken up with great music or people phoning in and doing quizzes, but actually, and I I do love radio now and and still is just listening to something informs you, also helps you step away from things and I think podcasts are the modern version of that and it's great that there are so many different ones done by interesting people who've got something to add as well. So I think we're, you know, it's a real luxury and we're spoiled for choice actually these days.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, thousands out there. Well, I could talk to you about psychology and and chasing your careers and all that kind of stuff. But perhaps we could talk before we go into FareShare's activities, perhaps you could give us an overview of the the issue as it stands. I I think now it's it's become part of the public conversation, but this is something obviously that's been going on for for decades and I I wonder if you could give us like a a snapshot or a bird's eye view of of the issues that you see it today.
Alison Walsh: Of course, yes, and you're you're absolutely right. Food insecurity, food poverty or kids going without has has been happening for, you know, years and decades and and beyond that. And probably in the olden days, you know, you might be aware of, well, so and so, you know, they didn't have enough or it was it was grouped together as, well, you know, they've just had less than us and and you might have been aware of it, but it's it's an issue that's been in our communities and amongst our friends and our neighbours, but in such a covered way because people won't talk about it or didn't talk about it because of the stigma, which is totally understandable. And if we can make comparisons about mental illness and people starting to feel that there's, you know, a more comfortable place of having those conversations, you and I know and and people listening will know that, you know, there'll always be somebody that you know who's doing a sponsored run and, you know, will you support me and sponsor me? I'm doing it for this illness because my brother had X or my auntie had Y. You know, people wouldn't say my sister skipped a meal last week or, you know, you and I know I told you that my sister-in-law lost her husband. Actually, they're down a salary and they can't really afford to eat as well as pay the rent or the rest of it. Those aren't the conversations that people have. And and the struggle that goes on behind that is so hard and is invisible, but the the pandemic has brought it out into the fore because there's always been holiday hunger as an issue and whether children who have the safety net of a free school meal then didn't have that during the summer holidays, there wasn't really a lot of talk about that or a greater awareness of it until we started doing some project work around it at FareShare. And in fact, that came to the attention of Marcus Rashford who came to FareShare about this time last year and said, right, what can we do? And this was before the heart of the pandemic, but but really it is the awareness of when trouble hits, it can hit in such a fundamental way that not having access to food, reducing the amount of food and then, you know, trying to make the most of what there is and and eke it out are things that are going on in millions of family homes all across the UK.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I I love the parallel you made there with mental health. I think, you know, if we were having this conversation perhaps 10 years ago, even as early as that, mental health definitely wouldn't have been on the agenda for the government or even in the sort of public sphere of it being something that is okay to talk about. Whereas now, it's almost relied on, yes, celebrity culture coming out, but also, you know, having the bravery to talk about it amongst your own communities, amongst your own friends and stuff. And I think school meals and and food insecurity as the problem at large, I think is hopefully edging towards that same comfortable point where people are going to be a lot more approachable about the project about the problem and also confident enough to talk about it as well because it is very scary. I mean, even when I speak to parents about it in in clinic, it's it's an embarrassing scenario for a lot of them to be. And it's easy for me to say, well, you shouldn't be embarrassed about it, but then again, I I haven't had to, you know, prevent my child from from from eating because we're trying to save for the whole week. You know, that's something that I have absolutely no experience of.
Alison Walsh: And I I think you're right, the the element of telling someone don't be embarrassed because there is this assumption that you as a parent or or even you as an individual should be able to make it work. But but life is more precarious these days or it it feels like it's more and maybe it's always been, but the nature of employment is different and things like the gig economy and other elements where people might have a job but it's it's zero hours and therefore you don't really know what you're going to be earning next week and therefore the inability to plan really affects those sorts of decisions that people have to make in terms of, you know, is it a choice between food or fuel? Is it is it uniforms or is it whatever? And we do know that just from a purely economical point of view, people are so much more at risk from the the upsets to budgeting and planning so that if the boiler breaks or, you know, often it's a washing machine and it's 250 pounds, that can really change someone's ability to plan and budget on a very modest income anyway. So it doesn't take much to push someone into the place of, actually I wasn't planning on spending that money and therefore it's thrown everything else out. And you know, going to, I don't know, payday loan companies and things like that for those solutions, it's all connected and I just think that the society that we're in these days means that those shocks are much harder to absorb because we're we're not as well set up to do that. So I think it's it's the time and the place that we're in and obviously as we've just said, you know, the pandemic has shone a much brighter spotlight on it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I I I think those examples give an idea about what food insecurity means for certain people and and and how that can manifest. I wonder if A, there's a definition for exactly what we mean by food insecurity and B, the extent of the current problem at the moment in terms of any numbers or statistics that you're you're privy to.
Alison Walsh: Well, I think the the sort of latest stats are about one in eight people experience food insecurity. Wow. And and so if you think of any room of people that you know, that brings it really home and very close. But insecurity could be skipping meals altogether, reducing the amount of food that you or your family eats and also then just struggling to afford good nutritional food. So it may be that on a very limited budget, yes, you are eating, but there's little value in terms of nutrients in the food that you are able to access. So it's those three different levels that contribute to to the totality of insecurity. So it's, you know, it's unpredictable, it's not great quality and actually you're not having as much of it as really you need from a, you know, a calorific point of view.
Dr Rupy: And when it comes to the drivers behind food insecurity, I understand this is a a very complicated subject, one that, you know, touches on on politics and and local government strategy on the the changing face of of our tech landscape, the gig economy that you just mentioned here as well. If you could whittle it down to some key drivers that you think are the reasons why we've become so food insecure in this country. I mean, those those numbers are absolutely staggering for me to to even get my head round. But can can you give us some insight as to to what you think the foundations for this scenario are?
Alison Walsh: They're they're multiple, unfortunately. And definitely there's there's the economic and the societal element of work. But actually, where where FareShare comes in and what we see and we support a network of 11,000 charities, there's a real variety in the charities that are supported with food because of the many frailties of life. And unfortunately, people are in a place where there is domestic violence and someone needs to leave a situation and then they're going to a refuge and we're supporting the refuge with food. And in fact, knowing that there's food there for for the mother and the children gives confidence to leave. There are people suffering from addictions and making that choice between feeding a habit and feeding oneself are things that people are thinking about all the time. There there's loss and bereavement which then affects a family's ability to bring in an income. So I would say as much as it's economic, there are all of those other elements of life being difficult and unpredictable and and all brings about the fact that people have to choose or actually sometimes aren't getting a choice because that choice has been taken away from them for so many different reasons. Even sort of poor mental health and disability, life is a lot more expensive if you have a disability because getting to hospital appointments may mean you've got to take a taxi rather than a bus. So, so it's everything unfortunately in life that contributes towards this in in different measures, but I would say it's a really wide wide remit.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I I like the way that you described it as the the the frailties of life. These are things unfortunately that a lot of people are going to have to go through. I mean, all of us with regard to bereavement and loss and the the vulnerability that associates itself with with with growing old as well. You know, it's interesting, I reflect and I see the acute side of that. So when someone unfortunately comes to the hospital and passes away or leaves the hospital with severe disability or presents to the hospital because of one of those different things. Yes, I work as a general practitioner, so I see a bit of that, but it's just a snapshot. I'm not there with them, you know, the 23 hours of the day outside of the time that they have to to interact with medical services. So it it's a it's a really interesting point that I think most people perhaps would have glossed over, myself included, because we just see it as an economic issue or or people or or governmental problem.
Alison Walsh: Yes. Well, and particularly from a health point of view, as you say, we know through some of the charities that we support that where, I don't know, an elderly person has been bereaved, cooking for two people is a thing that you do. Cooking for one, actually, when just I don't know, some people lose the energy and the enthusiasm to do it. So it might not be a financial thing that someone's not eating well. It's actually because they've lost the desire to do it. And we support some elderly lunch clubs where actually saying, oh, there's a lunch on the table, you know, come and meet 12 other people, is a reason to go out, is a reason to connect and stops there being isolation as well. And we also know that sometimes people make appointments with GPs for the company of it and and the opportunity to talk. So actually, when someone can go to a lunch club and mix with other people, maybe that's less time taken up for the NHS because someone's connected and they've they've made friendships. So actually, food as a connector is hugely valuable beyond actually the the nutrients in the food. So actually, FareShare sees it on a lot of different levels, but also health and wellbeing in order to make sure that people are accessing food to to keep going. But I think there are there are lots of other layers around it as well, which which makes it really fascinating.
Dr Rupy: I can certainly attest to that. I mean, I remember in my first year as being a GP, I had a few regular patients that I absolutely love seeing. They're wonderful people, but they definitely did not need to be seeing me. They needed connection. They needed that societal piece. And we colloquially refer to it as tea and toast syndrome. Something that unfortunately happens to a lot of elderly men when they lose their their partner and they typically might have done all the cooking and then they're just and they won't admit to it. They won't come forward, they won't talk to me about it. But you know that there's this huge underbelly of malnutrition because they're they're relying on their limited skill set when it comes to to cooking, but also the motivation, I think, as well. It's a very, very important point about nutrition.
Alison Walsh: Yes, there's there's a real element of, I mean, even with dementia and and forgive me for talking about your area more is that lack of stimulation, we believe through some of the the groups that we've supported that people will go downhill more quickly without regular interaction. So helping people to go to a a lunch club is great. We also know that the ability to connect, there are some mental health clubs where we've put in food for lunches so that the folks coming in for the morning session stay for lunch and the folks coming in for the afternoon session come a bit earlier. And one of the project managers that that we're connected with said, you can hear people chatting and before when the morning people came in and then they went home and the afternoon people came in and they never saw each other. Here, actually, they're engaging with each other and they're making friends. So actually, they thought they were coming in for a service, but they're getting the service, the support, the food and friendship that then continues outside in its own way. And that's just by making sure that there's some, you know, some soup or shepherd's pie or whatever it is, just has so many different benefits and I just think that's incredible.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. And this I I'm a huge fan of, you know, food being a connector and it's not just the nutrition, it's the company that you have around you on the table as well as the nutrition in the actual food itself. So, you know, it definitely speaks to to to the way I like to think about food myself. I wonder if you can give us an insight into FareShare, what the origins were, where it where it came from and what your current activities are at the moment because it's it's such a vast organisation. There's so many touch points of of things you can do, but it'd be great to summarize it if if possible.
Alison Walsh: Yes, well, despite only coming into more sort of public awareness over the past couple of years, FareShare has been going for about 26 years and and started off as probably a lot of charity things do as like a a moment and a a light bulb about somebody's head. And we were originally part of crisis, the charity, where putting on crisis at Christmas and some of that sort of getting together with with large groups of people and all of the the food that's required for it. Somebody at crisis was talking to a food partner from the food industry and they said, this is so amazing. It's been fantastic these past five days. I I wish we could do it all the time. And the representative from the food company said, well, you could, there's enough surplus in the UK food industry to do this all year round. And that was where the light bulb moment came up. It's like, right, here's a real opportunity to take surplus food, which in itself, you know, is an opportunity but a waste and an environmental issue and turn it into social good. So that became a project at crisis and then a couple of years after that, it floated off. And where FareShare gets involved is by talking to the food industry, whether that's at farm level, at a packing house, at manufacturing and up to retail and taking their surplus food. And we've got a network of around 25 warehouses across the UK. Some of which we own and run ourselves and others we've got amazing delivery partners on the ground who are other charities who just really know their area and really know their geography so that they're the experts rather than us trying to to guess what would be the right thing to do in Yorkshire or in East Anglia. And then they're the ones that connect with local charities who are this really diverse range of amazing frontline services who then get a a weekly food delivery from us. We receive it in massive pallet format. And so it's our role as a bit like a a charitable logistics organiser to break it down into manageable weekly amounts of food. And those charities are the ones who cook it up into meals and provide it alongside the services that that they normally deliver. So we feel there's a real multiplier effect of taking something that's food over here but packaging it up with some brilliant and really well targeted services in the communities that then helps about a million people every week. So it's it's a great connector and a great way of using surplus food for social good.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that I mean, it's absolutely fascinating because it's not just an organisation where you locate excess food and then redistribute it. You're actually tapping into something that I think is very hard for organisations to mimic and and particularly at a government level and that's local knowledge. It's knowing those drivers or those people who understand their area and allowing them the ownership and the authority essentially to to redistribute the food that you've packed up so nicely in the most appropriate way. And that's that's very unique. Is that something that's been like that throughout the whole existence of of FareShare?
Alison Walsh: It has, yes. And we we call ourselves a social franchise. So in fact, whilst Greater Manchester is called FareShare Greater Manchester, it's actually run by a brilliant local charity called Emerge who as well as doing the food model, actually have some other activities that they do as well. So sometimes we will be the sole focus and activity of what a delivery partner on the ground does or we could be one of five things that they do. They've got so much in common and we've got delivery partners who will do employability programs. And in fact, some of the beneficiaries of the food at our local charities end up volunteering in our warehouses because they've loved seeing where the food's come from, they've really appreciated being able to benefit from it, that they wanted to give something back. And because we're now connected with retailers and big organisations, we've got a pathway of being able to build up confidence, build skills and potentially signpost towards employment opportunities that also include that warehouse experience or multi-drop driver activities, which is what we do is we send a van out that delivers out to eight charities each day. You know, that's that's a really great way of saying, well, okay, we started with the food, but the end result could be employment and and what a better way than doing the whole teach a person to fish approach that, you know, really sort of makes it meaningful in the long term.
Dr Rupy: What I want to get my head round and and forgive me if I'm I'm not very knowledgeable on this this area, but there is a certain amount of food that we waste every every year in this country. What would you hazard a guess as to to what that is? Like a third, less than that, more than that?
Alison Walsh: Yes, it's about a third of the food that we produce. I think we've worked out that it's 600 or it's the equivalent of 650 million meals. And that works out at something like 20 meals per second each year. So if if you imagine whilst you and I have been talking, how many meals have been wasted, it's a bit like a Greek restaurant throwing those plates on the floor. It's it's that amount of food that no one sets out to waste, but it's there and it might be because the production run for those new yoghurts is set up to do 100,000 pots each time, but they're just not all making it through the supermarket. There is huge opportunity of doing something really meaningful with that.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. So that third of food that's wasted for a number of different reasons, some perhaps unavoidable, others, you know, definitely avoidable. Where are we at the point where FareShare and other organisations could be at the point of redistributing all if not the majority of that share? And what where are the issues?
Alison Walsh: Okay, well unfortunately, I'd say we're a long way off. So I know that in terms of what FareShare's activity is, we're about 7% of the total food that's available and we're the the largest organisation and there are others in the UK and some are specific in certain regions and some have a particular focus, some mainly focus on farm level, but I would say if you imagine a an inverted pyramid, the greatest amount of food that's available for redistribution is at farm level and as you come further down the supply chain, it gets less or there's less life on it. So we can do less with it if there's only say three days life on it, but there's more at the the top of the pyramid that's inverted. And then you come down to retail level and in fact, only 1% of the amount of surplus food that could be used for social good is in the supermarkets. So, so actually it's much it's like an iceberg actually, there's more underneath the sea than there is above it. And and there's so much more to be done. And we know as a point of comparison that France that's just across the water and therefore it's a really easy comparison to make because it's not far away and they have a very similar sized population to us, they redistribute about 10 times more than FareShare does. Oh wow. And they've got a similar number of food manufacturers and a similar sized organisation to FareShare over there. So we can see the art of the possible and that's what we're aiming for. We're we're wanting to do so much more, but there are difficulties in getting there in terms of the cost of getting food out of the ground. It's a lot cheaper to leave it in the ground if you don't need it. The cost of transporting it, the cost of maybe working on it in a way that it can then be become used. So maybe there's lots of grain but it hasn't been turned into flour or it hasn't been made into bread. So there are different interactions and interventions with food that all cost money and it's just where that money can can come from and in France they actually have a a government plan that helps support that and we don't have that here yet.
Dr Rupy: Oh wow, okay. And and is the aspiration for FareShare to literally redistribute as much of that what all of that food? And is that a realistic is that is that a realistic scenario at some point in the future, do you think?
Alison Walsh: It would be a huge ambition to have. I think I think we'd need to set ourselves up quite differently and we're not in a place where we think that another 25 warehouses would be the solution. It's not about more from that. I think it's about a better capacity to get food in and food out. So actually food manufacturers call this stock turn so that you're just more efficient at moving it through so that it it keeps going through. And France is there as a great benchmark and we know the points of difference that they have. But I think not all food that's available to be redistributed is food that's needed. So actually FareShare's phrase is no good food should go to waste because there is more bread that is surplus than we could ever eat as a a country. So actually it's about the right types of food in the right quantities and most of what FareShare is able to redistribute does match the eat well plate in terms of the categories of, you know, the right amounts of protein and and produce. But I think it's, you know, there will always be surplus chocolate. And and maybe we don't need all of it, but actually we say yes please to to chocolate because if someone's been a rough sleeper and they've come into a daycare centre after a night on the streets, giving them a cup of tea and a bar of chocolate isn't actually a bad thing just to get their energy levels up. So I would say we're not we're not going for all the food, we're going for as much of the right food that we can.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the reasons why I wanted to do this pod actually was to sort of give people an overview of of your activities, but also the the grander landscape. And if I'm honest, I only came across FareShare a couple of years ago and that was because as part of our culinary medicine program, we have a whole module dedicated to food insecurity so we can not only upskill future doctors and current medical professionals about how they can cook themselves to look after themselves first and foremost, but also how they can elevate the conversation around nutrition in clinical scenarios. But it's also to understand the pressures behind why people struggle to eat well or struggle to eat at all. And that's kind of where I I came across FareShare. And and my sort of knowledge of this area was so limited before and I'm probably not the only one. So my question is, how fragmented are all the different charities out there at the moment doing incredible things? Is that hindering progress in this area or do you think there's a way to sort of encompass all the good work that tons of other organisations are doing?
Alison Walsh: That's a really interesting question. I think I think there's definitely fragmentation and I think that's because quite rightly, sometimes what works in one area doesn't work for another or what works for one type of charity wouldn't work for another one with a different sort of service provision. So I think whilst we're all connected and and possibly some of our 11,000 charities are part of other networks as well because actually they've got something else in common with them, the ability to learn and share is massively important. And probably for FareShare's next stage of evolution, it is that sophistication of of hearing more, listening more and then going, right, we've we've heard you and actually here's here's something that we could do. So for example, we know that some of our charities could take more food if they had bigger fridges or if they had freezers, which then enabled them to keep the food and plan how they use it differently. And so we're having conversation with funders around, you know, what can you do for white goods and and how can we support so that we have a more than meal approach out to those charities so that it's about enabling them to do more with the food that we could get them, which then again goes back to that getting more in and and getting more out because we know there's more there. I think as well in terms of fragmentation, something doesn't fit for everybody. And if if my experience in the DIY sector is anything to go by, you know, there's there's a different way for having sheds in one country than there is in another country. So I don't think a template version of things would ever be ideal, but something that's an 80/20 of something centralized with maybe 20% local adaptation or the flexibility, you know, freedom in a framework sort of thing could be the way forward and and listening more and, you know, computer systems that means that you've got everyone's information and you can analyze it better and work out what worked best in that area or or what made a difference in that one. That's more a place that we're getting to. So it's it's great to have a membership of thousands and thousands of charities, but I think looking for the points in common is then where we as a as a charity, FareShare can help make more of a difference.
Dr Rupy: So tell me a bit about through the the process by by what happens when when you get the food.
Alison Walsh: So we we have regular and daily and weekly conversations with partners in the food industry and when they have surplus, we arrange for it to come into our warehouses across the UK. And it comes in in huge pallet formats that really need breaking down and turning into much smaller versions of of what a charity can use for their cooking. And from the minute it arrives in our warehouses, we have an army of incredible volunteers who help break it down off the pallet, put it into the fridges, actually get it on our system so that we know from a computer point of view what food we've got at any one time. And then they process the orders to then put it make sure that the right charity is getting the right type of food on their daily delivery. But the volunteers drive the vans so that they're the the face of FareShare going out to those charities who do stand at the door ready and and waiting for the the food from FareShare, which is always very exciting and and very welcomed. So volunteers are at the heart of what we do and and like any food organisation actually, we trace and track all the food that we get in so that if there ever needs to be a recall or we want to know where something went or a local charity has allergens that they need respecting and they can't take a certain type of food, all of that's logged in our system. And so much of that work is done by volunteers who also hate waste, want to play a part in their community and and want to give back and also mentor some of our younger volunteers so that they get used to working in a warehouse or or thinking about what what jobs they want to go for in the future. So the the volunteers are another way that we add value back to the society or community.
Dr Rupy: Honestly, just listening to that process, you can just see so much value add from not just the experience that these people are getting from volunteering, but also, you know, all the different elements of of the the face of FareShare, the fact that people are communicating directly with the end consumers and it's almost like you've got like a mini Amazon process here where, you know, it's a mindful of, you know, issues, yeah, perishability of the products and making sure it goes to the right people and like you said, making sure that you have the processes to recall any food and and and monitor and stuff. So it's incredible that you're doing that with a million a million meals a week.
Alison Walsh: It's a million people a week who who get the food and I think we were about 42 million meals last year in terms of total food out. So we we call it squeezing as much social good out of food because of that, as you say, the added value each time. So that it's not just the food in itself, it's everything that that enables people to do and also connects them over. So it is a it's a great commodity to work on.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I I think also from the the perspective of an outsider or a consumer like myself, I I now understand that there are a number of different organisations, you know, there's Magic Beans, there's one for two, there's UK Harvest and Made in Hackney and all these incredible, incredible organisations doing wonderful, wonderful things. And I'm like, I want to help at sometimes with a monetary sort of donation or with trying to, you know, actually volunteer some time, however limited that is for people these days. Where where do we start? And and I'm going to ask you obviously a bit later about your campaigns and and things that are going on right now, but where where do people start?
Alison Walsh: It it depends what you want out of it and I think that's it's a great starting point because there are some organisations like Food Cycle who are preparing the meals and actually hosting them. So if if someone's wanting to volunteer their time or to get involved and you fancy cooking the meal or actually you're really good at the social side of things, that, you know, everyone does things slightly differently. So I would say there's no wrong answer in terms of where to start. It depends on your motivation, it depends on what's local. I think at our heart, we're all trying to do the same sort of thing. We've just got a slightly different way of doing it. And the what I know from FareShare's point of view is that because of how we're set up and our operations and our efficiencies, it costs the equivalent of about 25p to get a meal out to somebody. And that's just the benefit of scale and and what we're able to get in and get out. So I think in terms of efficiencies, that's not a bad place to start. And and that's because, you know, we we try and get deals here and, you know, buying capacity is always great. So if, you know, we've got vans that we're able to get, you know, we've always got a good deal for it. So from my point of view, I don't want FareShare just to be sort of layering on costs and costs for doing things. We want to be as efficient and as effective as possible.
Dr Rupy: And I think that comes down to sort of your commercial experience, I guess. It's it's getting that sort of that aspect right. What can we learn from industry that they do fantastically well and that's supply chain, logistics and branding, marketing, all those different things that we we sort of take for granted and bringing that into a into a sector that is doing good and is actually going to improve the livelihoods of all of us because when we we when we look at the foundations for what make a society, we have to lift everyone up and I and I think that's why it's incredible work that FareShare is doing.
Alison Walsh: Well, thank you on behalf of everybody, but I would say we we have the benefit of a some amazing people who've got food industry experience who've come and brought that with them. So that's really helpful. But also we're in a place where because of the partnerships that we have with food businesses, they're giving us advice as well. So it might sound really mundane, but one of the things we found out that would help us move food more was using a different type of tray or to start getting some trolleys that could carry milk in an upright format. And these are things that the the people behind the scenes of the supermarkets where you shop do this every day and know this. And as an emerging charity, we didn't have all of that knowledge. So actually it's it's making the most of those relationships in ways that are knowledge rather than purely, well, you know, here's some money or here's the food. It's the ability to do things differently but smarter and and more effectively. So we, you know, we don't know everything. We're we're still learning and we're very happy to learn.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I think it's those those little snippets of information and you know, those minor efficiencies that can have grand, grand impact on the outreach of FareShare and and all the other partner organisations. So that's that's brilliant to hear about. If if we were having this conversation in five to 10 years time, where where would you want FareShare to to be and what what what do you what do you aspire the the goals to have been ticked off?
Alison Walsh: There are lots of charities that have been set up with the purpose of end this or end that. And I don't think we're in that place yet because for as long as there is surplus food, there is an opportunity for FareShare to use it for social good. And whilst there is surplus food, we don't just sit back and go, yay, more for us to to redistribute, even though that's a good thing. Minimizing the amount of food that's wasted is is as important to us, but what we want to do is to make the most of it. So definitely doubling and tripling what we do in terms of our capacity is is where we want to go. And it's working out what are the the best ways, the most cost-efficient ways of doing it. So I would say in the next five years, it's definitely around doubling, slightly more than doubling. And we've made sure that we've got the infrastructure to help us do that. And beyond that, if by then we and I hope it was a bit sooner actually, we've got government support in the same way that they do in France, that then opens up a massive gateway into more of the surplus food in the food industry. So I would hope that that's where as a norm, the UK is helping to make sure that surplus food is is going to people in need and is being maximized.
Dr Rupy: Do do you have any government support at this point in time or is it all industry based and and reliant on those relationships?
Alison Walsh: It's mainly industry. We've had some government support this year because of the pandemic. So I think that was a a very different space for for government to to get into. And prior to that, we carried out a pilot to demonstrate the the theory or the hypothesis that we had to prove the point that actually it was doable in the UK in the same way that it is in other countries. So we did a very successful pilot and we've submitted our papers into government and and shown the calculations and the the workings down the side. So we're we're waiting for them to come back and to to assess the the benefit of that.
Dr Rupy: And is there anything that the public can can do in terms of getting involved and trying to put pressure on the government to make that right decision?
Alison Walsh: That's it's I probably a bit early for for that, I would say at this stage. We're we're we're still in talks and I think that that's the great thing is that we have an open door into Defra. We are talking to them. We've been able to demonstrate impact from our pilot and actually we worked with Defra to to do some pure food requirement or procurement to get that out to the voluntary sector when the the crisis and the peak of the pandemic hit. So we are hopeful and optimistic that those conversations will deliver that that change in in behaviors and processes. But if for some reason it doesn't, we'll come straight back to you and and galvanize that that willing spirit. Thank you.
Dr Rupy: Brilliant. Well, it's been such a pleasure to chat to you. Thank you so much for giving us an oversight of FareShare and and a bit about you as well. I'm I'm I'm still got that image of the the vision board.
Alison Walsh: So please go ahead and do yours and I'd love to see it when it's done.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. Emily and Alyssa, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I can't wait to talk about Magic Breakfast and all the incredible initiatives you're doing around this topic that has suddenly gained a lot of attention, but clearly, as you guys know, this is something that is very much pre-pandemic. I would love to first talk about a bit about your backgrounds and Emily, perhaps we can we can start with you and your experience with with education.
Emily Fretza: Yeah, so I used to be a primary school teacher, so I did that for about seven years. And worked in a range of schools, I would say, in different kinds of areas of different demographics. But I think the thing that kind of stays with me is is the demands on children. They have to work so hard and the expectations are so, so high. So I certainly found if children came in and weren't ready to learn, you kind of couldn't really go anywhere with that. So I think that's kind of where my passion stemmed from really.
Dr Rupy: And where abouts did you you grow up?
Emily Fretza: Just a few different places, but mainly in Cheshire.
Dr Rupy: Oh, okay, yeah, I know Cheshire. Yeah, yeah.
Emily Fretza: So yeah, but when I was teaching, that was more Manchester, sort of different areas of Manchester.
Dr Rupy: And how long how long were you teaching for?
Emily Fretza: About seven years. So I started off in North Manchester in quite a deprived area there. And I think that's where my eyes were opened really. There were there were lots of children who come in with holes in their shoes and things like that. And it's not something I'd ever really come across before. So I think that's where the shock began.
Dr Rupy: Wow. And and so your experience during that time, did it is it something that you had the opportunity to to get involved in as a teacher in terms of provisions of school meals or or even, you know, starting the conversation from the educational perspective around provisions for for food?
Emily Fretza: I mean, to be honest, not really. It's not really something that when I was training to be a teacher that was really discussed. It was more about kind of behavior management and that kind of thing. So for me, the pressures really were on attainment and I would say there wasn't a lot of time to really deal with those other issues. It was quite separate. So it was quite a baptism of fire really coming across those issues when when your job as you know it and as you understand it is to purely educate. And while while you are sort of taking, you know, a holistic approach, I would say you're not necessarily equipped with the knowledge and the understanding that you need to help those children.
Dr Rupy: Wow. And and I wonder if you could could give me and and the listeners a a bit of perspective of what your role was like as a teacher and in like you described a deprived area on like a day-to-day basis. Like what were the challenges? What were the the daily tasks? What were the things that actually kept you going? Because I'm always amazed at teachers and their resilience and actually how they manage such a manic classroom regardless of, you know, the the backgrounds of of where the children are raised and stuff. But but perhaps you can give us some insight into that.
Emily Fretza: I think that there were a lot of different challenges. There were a lot of behavioral issues, I would say. And I mean, I'll never forget there was a girl who we were doing PE and she came to me and she said, miss, miss, my foot, it really, really hurts. I said, oh, why does it hurt? Let me have a look. And she showed me and she had a massive hole in her pump. And she'd obviously been wearing these, you know, every single week. And I had no idea as a teacher. I had no idea that she was going through that. So I think it kind of manifested itself in different ways. You know, like I say, you'd have the behavioral issues. These particular children struggled, I think, when they were when it was too kind of loose and they didn't have the security and the the stability and the structure within the school day. But yeah, so it was it was that really. So I think as a teacher, and I'm sure lots of teachers would be able to to kind of agree with this, the most you could do is really kind of empathize. So you would empathize, obviously you would flag any issues and you would note down any issues and all the kind of safeguarding things. But I think you would just try and understand where the child was coming from, which was a challenge when they're expected to make the same amount of progress as the other children. And it just struck me as something that was really unfair because like I say, I'd never really come across that. You know, growing up in Cheshire in a nice area, it wasn't really something that I had experienced first hand. But you know, it's heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking. And lots of lots of like dental issues, lots of teeth issues for those children. But I think that the thing that kind of has stayed with me as well is just that I didn't have the training, I think, and the understanding. And it's not something that I would have been aware of. So if Magic Breakfast had come into that school, that would have been quite an eye opener, I think.
Dr Rupy: Wow. And and so you both mentioned something that I wanted to touch on actually, which is how you provide provisions in such an incredible, gracious way that is clearly fulfilling a need as those numbers suggest, in a non-stigmatizing way, in a way that doesn't make someone feel like a failure or the or the family feel like, you know, that they can't afford to do that and therefore they are, you know, not not being good parents or and the other sort of negative, shameful sort of spirals of how people might think about themselves. How do you deliver it in that way?
Emily Fretza: So I think where when we start working with schools and when we start supporting them, that's where the kind of school partner role would come in. So we would talk to the school about how they want their provision to work, how they want it to look. So are they have a breakfast club before school, where they have classroom breakfast, some schools they have bagels on the playground. So it just depends on the school's needs, on their staffing situation, lots of different factors. But then in amongst that conversation, we really focus on stigma and barrier. So we make sure that however they choose to give out food, it's just not obvious that it's the children at risk of hunger who are are having it. So that no one will be able to tell, you know, which are the hungry children and which are the children who actually have had breakfast. So for example, if a school does classroom breakfast, that has to be offered out to the entire class and it has to be there either for the children to help themselves or to be given out to all of the children. If a school has a breakfast club and they have some parents paying for the the kind of child care element, again, it has to not be obvious at all that any child is free. So it it just it depends what the school's doing and how they work. And I would say as well, you know, during the pandemic when they've been giving food out, again, that's been really, really important that no parent or child has been made to feel that they've been singled out for any particular reason. So the amazing thing about Magic Breakfast is that we say to schools that they can have as much food as they need. So we don't put a limit. We don't say it's just for free school meal children. It's any child at risk of hunger. So a school can look at their provision and they can work out actually how much food they need to make it so there's no stigma, to make it so that they're not relying on a child saying they're hungry because obviously that's the last thing that should be happening. And then we just kind of continue to work with schools because obviously they I think that there's kind of an idea that that schools are static, but actually they evolve and there's a lot of change and there's changing with staffing and changing with pressures. So that continued work that we do with them is really important.
Dr Rupy: How has the journey from the founder gone from, you know, delivering one meal at a time or a few meals at a time to like one or two schools, gone from now to almost a thousand schools? Like what what does that journey look like?
Alyssa Remtulla: I think it's really been driven by the need among schools. So we have kind of publicized that opportunity on our website and then schools will kind of submit an expression of interest and sort of slowly, slowly that number has built and built. But one one kind of really significant development is that the government was actually funding close to 2,000 schools to run school breakfast provision. And really unfortunately, the majority of that funding for those schools actually ended at the end of last year. So Magic Breakfast was really kind of distressed about that and we didn't want kind of schools who had invested their kind of time and energy and kind of establishing these breakfast provisions to stop. So we actually took on board a whole kind of bunch of new schools, about 500 so far, and now we're kind of supporting those ones as well. So we actually doubled our size in January of this year.
Dr Rupy: Wow. And you you both mentioned something that I wanted to touch on actually, which is how you provide provisions in such an incredible, gracious way that is clearly fulfilling a need as those numbers suggest, in a non-stigmatizing way, in a way that doesn't make someone feel like a failure or the or the family feel like, you know, that they can't afford to do that and therefore they are, you know, not not being good parents or and the other sort of negative, shameful sort of spirals of how people might think about themselves. How do you deliver it in that way?
Emily Fretza: So I think where when we start working with schools and when we start supporting them, that's where the kind of school partner role would come in. So we would talk to the school about how they want their provision to work, how they want it to look. So are they have a breakfast club before school, where they have classroom breakfast, some schools they have bagels on the playground. So it just depends on the school's needs, on their staffing situation, lots of different factors. But then in amongst that conversation, we really focus on stigma and barrier. So we make sure that however they choose to give out food, it's just not obvious that it's the children at risk of hunger who are are having it. So that no one will be able to tell, you know, which are the hungry children and which are the children who actually have had breakfast. So for example, if a school does classroom breakfast, that has to be offered out to the entire class and it has to be there either for the children to help themselves or to be given out to all of the children. If a school has a breakfast club and they have some parents paying for the the kind of child care element, again, it has to not be obvious at all that any child is free. So it it just it depends what the school's doing and how they work. And I would say as well, you know, during the pandemic when they've been giving food out, again, that's been really, really important that no parent or child has been made to feel that they've been singled out for any particular reason. So the amazing thing about Magic Breakfast is that we say to schools that they can have as much food as they need. So we don't put a limit. We don't say it's just for free school meal children. It's any child at risk of hunger. So a school can look at their provision and they can work out actually how much food they need to make it so there's no stigma, to make it so that they're not relying on a child saying they're hungry because obviously that's the last thing that should be happening. And then we just kind of continue to work with schools because obviously they I think that there's kind of an idea that that schools are static, but actually they evolve and there's a lot of change and there's changing with staffing and changing with pressures. So that continued work that we do with them is really important.
Dr Rupy: How has the journey from the founder gone from, you know, delivering one meal at a time or a few meals at a time to like one or two schools, gone from now to almost a thousand schools? Like what what does that journey look like?
Alyssa Remtulla: I think it's really been driven by the need among schools. So we have kind of publicized that opportunity on our website and then schools will kind of submit an expression of interest and sort of slowly, slowly that number has built and built. But one one kind of really significant development is that the government was actually funding close to 2,000 schools to run school breakfast provision. And really unfortunately, the majority of that funding for those schools actually ended at the end of last year. So Magic Breakfast was really kind of distressed about that and we didn't want kind of schools who had invested their kind of time and energy and kind of establishing these breakfast provisions to stop. So we actually took on board a whole kind of bunch of new schools, about 500 so far, and now we're kind of supporting those ones as well. So we actually doubled our size in January of this year.
Dr Rupy: Wow. And I suppose this is quite hard to toe the line between being too political and I I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable talking about the situation, but unfortunately food is political in itself. Where do you think the responsibility lies? I mean, Magic Breakfast is fantastic. They're probably doing a better job logistically from a stigmatizing point of view, from every touch point than perhaps the government could do at all. But where do you think the responsibility lies? Do you think we need to rely on charities or even businesses who have good at their core in terms of the values or or do you think this really shouldn't exist? Magic Breakfast just shouldn't exist. This should be a governmental issue.
Alyssa Remtulla: Yeah, I mean, happy to get political. That's sort of my bread and butter. I think that we can't rely on charities alone to solve the issue of child hunger. It's too big of an issue and it is linked to so many other kind of societal problems and it's not something Magic Breakfast can solve on our own. So I actually would say that responsibility does lie with the government and that in the same way the government kind of currently provides provision for children at lunchtime, the government needs to be thinking really carefully about how it provides provision for children in the morning. And they were and are doing some good work, but at the moment it doesn't go far enough and they aren't reaching all of the children at risk of hunger at the moment.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Do do you think and perhaps Emily, you could touch on your practical experience of this. Do you think this is a a sticky plaster for an issue that has its roots in some really core core problems amongst our economy and amongst equality and and society at large or do you do you think again, this this comes down to the government and and what we should be providing for for kids?
Emily Fretza: I think, first of all, I think it is such a complex issue. I think there are so many different strands to it and it's not something that I I think there is a a possibly a temptation to to make it very black and white and I don't think it is. I think there are so many things going on here. I mean, certainly for us as a charity, we're all about the child. So, you know, all those other issues aside, wherever the responsibility lies and and the causes of poverty and food insecurity, we know that if that child doesn't have food first thing in the morning, they will not be able to learn and the cycle will just continue. So we want to give those children as much chance as they can to really learn and to be able to go on and and get whichever job they want to get and hopefully break that cycle. But I mean, as Alyssa said, you know, as a charity, we believe it is the government's responsibility to put something in place for those children.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And you know, looking looking forward, I think with Magic Breakfast, I mean, you you've had some incredible partners. You're doing some amazing work in terms of the charitable front. I guess what I would love to sort of give the listener an impetus to or maybe even some motivation to do is figure out how we can get involved because I think my personal view is the government definitely has a responsibility for sure in the short term, but I think at large, this is like a community issue. And we really need to harness this sort of empathetic current climate to fix problems that have been going on for for decades as you guys have described. So I wonder if there are ways in which we can try and figure out solutions ourselves and and how people can get involved.
Alyssa Remtulla: Well, I think one of the ways that we would encourage people to get involved is to really join us in our campaign for the government to kind of take more action on school breakfast. So at the moment, for example, we're running a campaign calling for the government to make a new commitment to breakfast in the upcoming spring budget. So we really believe in the power of the individual and as an individual, you can write to your local MP and ask them to support this campaign and ask them to call on the government to take action. I think by the time this this actually airs, unfortunately, the budget will have long gone. But in general, kind of using your voice as a voter and as a citizen and as a kind of part of this society to kind of call on the people who represent you to take action is the way I'd encourage people to kind of get involved.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And and looking forward for Magic Breakfast. I mean, where where do you see the organization in five, 10 years time? What what is the sort of moonshot idea for you guys and and what do you want to see?
Alyssa Remtulla: I think we're really comfortable with the idea of not existing anymore if we can solve this issue for good. So I think one thing I found in the charity sector is, you know, we would love not to be needed anymore. I think we we see a role for ourselves in kind of supporting the implementation of any kind of government policy on school breakfast. And as Emily has already kind of shared, you know, there's a wealth of experience and expertise within our team on what it means to set up a hunger focused effective school breakfast provision. So I think we see a role for ourselves in advising others and specifically advising government on that. But then, you know, we're happy to to take our seats and and let this issue be solved if that happens. And I know that, you know, long ago when Carmel first started the charity, she had kind of hoped to wrap this up in the UK in a few years and and go international. So that might be something we think about in the future. But certainly we could think about kind of Scotland and Northern Ireland and Wales for starters.
Dr Rupy: Awesome. Yeah. Well, I mean it's fantastic what you guys do and I think, you know, if anyone listening wants to get involved, we'll definitely have the links on the website and stuff for Magic Breakfast and and and you know, different locations. I I guess the the other thing is, you know, how we encourage corporate social responsibility to support projects like yourself and and what other initiatives you think are really useful such that you guys don't exist. I mean, do you have any other sort of things that you think would help your campaign that might not be related directly to food provision, but might stem the issue further down the line?
Alyssa Remtulla: Well, it's interesting when you say corporate social responsibility because we actually have some fantastic corporate partners. And the things they do really helpfully with us, one is food provision. So we benefit from some great partnerships with Heinz who provide us with beans, with Arla who provide us with milk vouchers. I can't name them all and I'm sure I'd forget some if I tried. But you know, a lot of the food that we're able to supply to schools is provided as gift and kind donations or at kind of a reduced cost and that makes a huge difference. I also think that corporates can use their voices with government, not to keep banging on about government, but I've really seen the difference in the way the government reacts when say Kelloggs gets in touch with them to the way that the government reacts when we get in touch with them as a charity.
Dr Rupy: That's a very good point. Yeah, I I didn't actually appreciate just how important it is to have that corporate voice knocking on the government door because the the unfortunate fact is they do listen to industry a lot more than a charitable organization that is doing good, but perhaps has less lobbying power. So that that's super important.
Emily Fretza: Can I just say, the schools that we work with and have worked with, they have just been so incredible. I think particularly throughout the pandemic, but even before that, you know, they they are really, you know, you talk about poverty being a community issue, they are the the core of the community and they have, you know, parents phoning them in tears because they can't afford to pay their bills and they provide uniforms for families, but they have just been so fantastic making sure that the food we provide gets to the children who need it without, like we said, you know, without stigma, without barrier. So, a huge thank you to all of them as well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. I mean, for for a school, what's the process by which they approach you guys? Is it all by the website or they're direct contacts and like, you know, what what's the scale of the the schools at the moment? Like how many schools actually do require free school meals or or would benefit from it? Or are we looking at every single school should be providing this?
Emily Fretza: I mean, we have a lot of schools would benefit from it. I couldn't give you a number. We can only support at the moment schools that have 35% or more pupil premium. So we just focus on on the kind of, you know, schools in the more deprived areas. But I mean, even even in schools in nicer areas, you know, there are obviously children who still need that. So it's something that I think everybody, every school should be aware of.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean, I think back to like my school meals and stuff and at the time you would complain about it, but now looking back through the lens of hindsight, you're like, we're very lucky to even have been provided school meals and it's so important when it comes to nutrition, nourishing your brain, looking after, you know, the development of kids, both physically and mentally. It's it's such an important issue. So I'm so glad there's organizations like you, you guys are banging the drum as well and and and making sure that this gets through. So I appreciate it very, very much.
