Sakina: If I'm not trying to build muscle, if I don't go to the gym, do I still need to worry about eating enough protein?
Dr Rupy: Yes.
Sakina: Is getting protein from meat better than getting it from plants?
Dr Rupy: Not necessarily.
Sakina: Are beans and lentils enough to meet my protein needs, like if I'm having just a cup of beans?
Dr Rupy: Probably not.
Sakina: Do we need protein at every single meal, or if I'm just having protein at dinner, for example, is that enough?
Dr Rupy: Ideally at every meal.
Sakina: What's your go-to healthy high-protein breakfast at the moment?
Dr Rupy: Overnight oats with hemp seeds, chia, milled flax, plus or minus an unflavoured, minimally processed protein powder.
Sakina: Okay, perfect.
Dr Rupy: Hi, I'm Dr Rupy, I'm a medical doctor and nutritionist. And when I suffered a heart condition years ago, I was able to reverse it with diet and lifestyle. This opened up my eyes to the world of food as medicine to improve our health. On this podcast, I discuss ways in which you can use nutrition and lifestyle to improve your own wellbeing every day. I speak with expert guests and we lean into the science, but whilst making it as practical and as easy as possible so you can take steps to change your life today. Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast.
Dr Rupy: High protein has turned into a bit of a marketing buzzword. I'm seeing it plastered on everything from snack bars, cereals, and even crisps. I'm sure you have as well. But is this actually necessary? Are we getting enough protein in our diet like many scientists are saying? Or are some of us actually under-consuming this vital macronutrient? What about the research that underpins our requirements in the first place? Do we need supplements or powders, or can we get enough from whole foods? And what about the debate between animal-based proteins and plant-based proteins? This is why I've put everything I've gleaned from the research and years of cooking into my new book, Healthy High Protein, which is out tomorrow. As it turns out, protein is a lot more than just muscle health. It's about keeping our energy steady, supporting healthy ageing, and making meals that are both satisfying and full of flavour that can support a healthy weight. And the recipes in this new book are ones that I literally cook every week. They're high in protein, high in fibre, and full of anti-inflammatory ingredients. And this is the crux of it all. It is possible to have a healthy high-protein diet. And when I say healthy high protein, I mean meals that satisfy your body's requirements for protein, that also look after your gut microbiota by including high-fibre ingredients and a use of ingredients that includes ones that reduce inflammation. Take my daily bread, for example. It's made from whole nuts and seeds, about nine grams of protein, seven grams of fibre, and plenty of diversity. This brings us to today's episode. I'm sitting down with our science content lead, Sakina, to share my take on some of these big questions about protein that you'll also find in the book. We're going to discuss why I think the protein guidelines are set too low, how eating more protein affects brain health, metabolic health, your energy levels, how to eat more protein in a healthy way that also supports your gut and reduces inflammation, why those are important as well, plus my favourite protein sources and how I use them in recipes. And I think there is an assumption, let's say, that just because I'm saying we need to eat more protein, that we actually need to eat more meat. And I don't think that is necessarily the case. For now, on to my podcast with Sakina, all about my new book, Healthy High Protein.
Sakina: Let's dive in then. So I wanted to start with the kind of the debate in the nutrition space about protein. So we hear a lot, some people say that we don't need to worry about protein, we're eating enough and it's actually other nutrients like fibre that we need to worry about. But you wrote a whole book about healthy high protein. So why? Why is it that you focused your book on protein?
Dr Rupy: Well, I wrote Healthy High Protein really because I realised a few years ago that I was actually under-consuming protein myself. So it was actually during my medical nutrition, nutritional medicine masters that I, we were doing a course subject, I think it was on ergogenic acids. So basically nutrients that can improve athletic performance. And I came across a whole bunch of research studies looking at protein tracing. So just to rewind, a lot of our current recommendations are based on a form of research called nitrogen balance. And these nitrogen balance studies are very well-controlled studies, but they were done on healthy males in their 20s generally, and what they determined was the amount of protein at a population level we should be consuming to prevent deficiency. They did some statistical calculations where they gave enough of a buffer to essentially enable them to say with a certain degree of confidence that this is the lower limit of protein that everyone should be consuming to prevent deficiency. I think those were relatively well done, but actually when you look at newer protein research, we should be looking at a lower limit of protein that's much higher. So just to get nerdy for folks, the current recommendations for protein are 0.8 grams per kilo of body weight per 24 hours, and that's at an ideal weight. The newer ones that I believe we should be aiming for, and I believe that this will come into effect in our guidelines at some point in the next few years, is 1.2 grams per kilogram of body weight per 24 hours. And that's again, ideal body weight. And this was a big realisation for me because as someone who exercises regularly, I always noticed, particularly as I was on a plant-predominant diet, and I still am on a plant-predominant diet, which we'll get into in a little bit, that my recovery rates were always lower. I couldn't push myself at the gym without really feeling that the following day I was going to really need a lot of time to recover. And during my masters, I was like, gosh, if my ideal amount of protein consumption is higher than the recommendations that I've been talking about and everyone else has been talking about in the dietetics and nutrition world, I would need to think about it, really carefully and really plan out my meals. And when I started doing that, my focus improved, my energy improved, my recovery rates improved. And the deeper you go in protein research, you realise that it's not just about the gym and recovery, which is exactly what I've just been bagging on about now. It's actually about how protein is integral to every element of our wellbeing. It's about our metabolic health, it is about our brain health, it is longevity, it's immune health. And when you break down protein, perhaps that's where we could start. Protein is integral to every element of our physiology. So what is a protein? Proteins are essentially the building blocks of life. I use the analogy in the book that remember when you used to play with Lego and you used to be able to build everything from a toy car to like an incredible skyscraper or starship with just a few different types of Lego blocks. As long as you had enough of those blocks, you could build far-fetching different structures. Well, Lego are the building blocks in the world of toys, in the same way proteins are the building blocks in the world of biological materials. So very simple proteins that are built out of these things called amino acids, of which nine are essential and we have around 20 that are totally non-essential and essential put together, but there's some disagreement on exactly how many there are. But that aside, when you have enough of these, if you have a very simple structure, you could build something like DNA or an RNA. Make that a little bit more complex and you get like sheets of collagen. Make a slight a small deviation or like a couple of bonds and you build a small 3D structure and you get an enzyme or an enzyme receptor or an immune molecule. And then you build a slightly more complex structure and then you can get muscles and bone and then you kind of realise, wow, we're basically made up of proteins. So when people just equate protein with muscles and muscular health, they are negating the huge role that protein plays in so many other elements of our life. And a big realisation for me, and I'll stop right here, is when you consume protein, only around 25% of that protein actually goes to your muscles. The vast majority of the proteins that you consume through diet are actually going to build all these other elements, enzymes, hormones, receptors, all these signalling molecules, super, super important to realise that the majority of what you consume in the form of protein is not just for muscle health.
Sakina: I think that's a very important realisation that I've had as well talking to you about this book. Um so I thought maybe we can double click on that a bit more. So if you're saying not everything goes to the muscle, day-to-day, for example, just in the at the scale of one day, what are the benefits of eating more protein?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so if we think about getting enough protein, particularly at breakfast time, there's something called the protein leverage hypothesis, which is your body will continue to have the I'm hungry signal on in your brain until you've met the protein threshold for your requirements. And that generally for most people is anywhere between 20 to 30 grams. 30 grams gets bandied around quite a bit. I think it's like a general figure, but I reckon around 20 to 30 grams is the number that people should be aiming for at breakfast time. This is super important and I think it explains this phenomenon that people have where they can consume a lot of breakfast. It could be cereals and orange juice and croissants and all this refined carbohydrate. I've had a really big breakfast. Why on earth am I hungry at 11 a.m. after I've just eaten a couple of hours ago? Some people explain it through the lack of fibre, that's definitely having an effect. Some people explain it through the lens of glucose, so you have a massive glucose spike and then a corresponding drop. And then that drop in glucose sends again more hunger signals, so you go out and try and eat more food. I explain it through all of those, but also through protein, because protein is super satiating. It is essential for signalling to your body that you have had enough food. And until you've met that protein threshold, you'll continue to have these hunger pangs, these cravings. And so I think it's really important to start off the day with protein for that for those reasons.
Sakina: Yeah, I feel like what you just mentioned, which is protein and fibre, both of them are important. I feel like it's a point that people often will say, when we're focusing too much on protein, we're missing out on fibre. But your approach with this book is very much that protein and fibre can go hand in hand. It doesn't have to be one or the other, especially when you're adding plant-based sources.
Dr Rupy: Exactly, exactly. And I think this is a really important point because a lot of well-meaning nutritionists online will advise people that they don't need to worry about protein. We're all eating enough protein. What you want to be worrying about is fibre. And I agree with the way in which they work that out and the reasons behind why they're saying that. Where I disagree is if we use a different benchmark of 1.2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day, the average consumption of protein is below that. Some people are certainly consuming enough protein. They probably could deal with consuming a little bit less because when you eat more protein-rich foods, particularly from animal-based products, you're pushing out the opportunity to consume fibre and other phytonutrients in the form of fruits and vegetables. So for certain people, this doesn't apply. But for a lot of us, particularly those who exercise regularly and who have higher protein demands, we'll get into that in a second, over the age of 45, particularly if you're post-menopausal, if you have muscle wasting, if you're overweight, these are all folks that need to really think about protein. Um and the other and breastfeeding women and pregnant women all have higher protein requirements as well. So this is something that I think is really important to to get across that if you eat more protein, it doesn't necessarily need to be at the expense of other nutrients of importance like fibre. You can have your cake and eat it, not literally that cake, but you can have high amounts of protein that satisfy your needs at this higher requirement level that I think will become apparent for a lot of people in the future. You can have that with a high-fibre diet and you can have that with inflammation-reducing ingredients and diversity of ingredients as well. And this is exactly, I mean, if you if you want to stop listening to the podcast and you didn't want to read the book, you can just everything is surmised in this one statement or this one sort of practice, which is every time you sit down to eat a meal, ask yourself these three questions. Is there enough protein to meet my requirements on this plate? Are there gut health supporting ingredients, i.e. high fibre? And is this pro or anti-inflammatory? If you can answer positively to all those three questions, you're looking at a really healthy meal that will have a huge impact on your overall wellbeing and how you feel and your weight and your concentration. And I go into how this is important for hormonal health in the book as well.
Sakina: Yeah, let's go into more about that because we'll definitely go more in detail with about these questions and how you can tell that and how you can build a plate like this. But in terms of benefits, so you said hunger and you were saying cravings and the satiety effect. What other benefits day-to-day do we have from protein?
Dr Rupy: So certainly from the perspective of what our hormones are built out of, these are built out of amines or peptides. There are something called steroid hormones that are basically made out of fats like cholesterol being the precursor. But for a lot of hormones, they're made out of proteins. Our immune health, these are immune cells are all made out of proteins as well. These little molecules that are largely produced in the gut, they are incredible and and we need protein as the building blocks for those as well. In terms of our muscle health, I know it's not all about muscle health, but muscle health is super important, particularly as we age. We need protein as the building blocks for our muscle, our nails, our hair, but also our bones as well. So this is particularly relevant for post-menopausal women. After the menopause, you have a crashing reduction in not only oestrogen, but also testosterone and progesterone. And this puts you at risk of a whole host of issues, including loss of bone health. There are a number of different studies that show in combination with resistance training, protein and adequate amounts of protein, which are at the higher level of like 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight per 24 hours, has been shown to not only slow the degradation of bone loss, but also maintain bone integrity, which is kind of unheard of actually, because when I think about the drugs that we have available to us to prevent a rapid decline in in bone health, I haven't come across one that actually stops that that reduction in bone mineralization before. And actually exercise, resistance training in combination with protein may have that benefit as well. So there are so many different benefits. And I guess some of the knock-on benefits on focus, energy, concentration can be explained by not actually having cravings anymore, not over-consuming food, not falling prey to our food environment in a hungry state, because if you're hungry and you live in an urbanised environment, you're going to be having to deal with snacks and refined products at every corner. So it's no wonder people fall prey to a lot of these heavily marketed items.
Sakina: There's two things I want to double click on a little bit more. So when you say this this satiety effect, can you tell us more about how it actually works? Because we keep saying, we keep using these words of satiety, you know, increasing satiety, but how does it work? You're eating protein, what's happening?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so when you consume protein and fibre in particular, you get the release of these incretin hormones. One of which is GLP-1, that is getting a lot of attention at the moment because of these drugs that secrete GLP-1 at pharmacologic doses. So far higher than what you are able to secrete physiologically. When you consume protein, this molecule is secreted and it travels to the brain to signal to your brain, you can stop eating. So it's literally having an impact on your satiation levels, the the hormones that would otherwise drive hunger. So this is super important. It also has an impact on, I mean, this is with protein and fibre, the release of insulin as well. So all these things combine to essentially satiate you, keep you full, and this will overall have a net effect of you less likely to consume calories in a 24-hour period. Calories are super important. I know that there is this idea in the sort of health and wellness world that we don't need to worry about calories. And whilst it's true that we have different absorption rates and some people can absorb more than others from like a simple nut, the facts are that if you over-consume food, you will put on weight and this is, you know, one of the ways in which we can negate that and stop it.
Sakina: So it's kind of getting more from our food.
Dr Rupy: Yes.
Sakina: From the food we're eating. Um the other thing I want to dive a bit deeper into is the muscle health and bone health element, because I think for me, muscle health I've recently realised that it was linked to so many other health benefits. Before you always think muscle health is about aesthetic and gains and like looking nice and buff, you know. But actually all these benefits for bone, brain, post-menopause, could you tell us more about these? Why is it that muscle health is not just for gains and aesthetic?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so we've got to think about our muscles as like endocrine organs. They are super powerful releases of of hormones. They can reduce inflammation, but they can also be powerful and large sinks for our glucose. So when you look at stores of sugar in the body, we have three main compartments or three cell compartments. One is the liver, one is fat cells, and the other one is muscle. And muscle is the bulk of where you can actually put your sugar. And so the the more efficient and the bigger your muscle stores, the more glucose you can actually suck up. And this will protect us against metabolic disturbances when we consume food, particularly as we age. So the more muscle bulk that we have as we age, the more protected we are against these fluctuations in glucose levels that can lead to things like type two diabetes. So in that in that sense, protein coupled with exercise as a means to improve not just muscle bulk, but muscle efficiency and the health of your muscle is something that can have these knock-on effects on your endocrine health and and your inflammation levels as well.
Sakina: Okay, nice. And just to add a bit of nuance to that. So you've said, you've kind of cited a few groups of people that would benefit from adding more protein. Is there anyone that would benefit from that would not benefit from more protein and that actually would not be concerned by this?
Dr Rupy: I think in the sort of camp of bodybuilders and people who are already like sort of quite macronutrient focused. I don't think people are under-consuming in that camp. Um and I think, you know, whilst there are some extra benefits of consuming more than 1.8 or even two grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, I think those extra benefits are marginal and it comes with a potential cost of over-consuming calories in and of itself, which can put you at risk of putting extra weight on. So I, you know, we didn't talk about this earlier, but like um 1.2 grams is the the minimum, the that people should be aiming for. I think if you exercise regularly, if you are post-menopausal, if you are of the older generation, you're in your 50s and 60s, you would probably benefit from that higher threshold of 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per 24 hours. I'm certainly in that category, which is why my protein needs are quite a lot higher than what I realised. It's around 35 to 40 grams of protein at every single meal, which can seem like a huge number to hit. And when you do these protein calculators online, of which there are many and we've got one at the doctorskitchen.com, it can feel quite overwhelming. And it's no wonder people fall prey to the protein high protein industry with their shakes and bars and cookies and sweets and you know, everyone is just adding whey protein to everything to meet this sort of number. And whilst I believe in the number, I don't believe in the means to get to that number. And I think we have to, you know, think really pragmatically about and holistically about our overall health in that we want to remove ultra-processed foods from our diet. We want to get protein mainly from whole food sources and there are ways in which to do that in a healthy way that also looks after your gut and reduces inflammation as well.
Sakina: So when you say those numbers, 1.2 per kilograms, I feel like it can feel a bit vague and maybe overwhelming and I don't really know what that looks like on a plate. But could you talk us through, if I don't know my protein needs and I want to eat more, I want to make sure I'm eating enough, how do I figure it out? How do I know my number and then what do I do from that point?
Dr Rupy: Okay, so you can go onto a protein calculator, many of which exist online. Um the Doctor's Kitchen one is free, it's open source. We can link to it in the show notes as well. Um you put your weight in, you put your activity level in, uh you put your age in, and a couple of other metrics like whether you're pregnant or breastfeeding, and it will spit out how much protein you require in a 24-hour period. So for argument's sake, let's say you have an individual that is 75 kilograms in weight. That 75 kilograms is generally their ideal weight. They're not overweight, they're not trying to lose weight, that is their weight, they're happy with that. But they go to the gym regularly, so they probably meet that higher criteria. So 1.6 grams of protein times 75 is 120 grams divided by three meals if you choose to eat a three meal a day pattern. That's 40 grams of protein at every single meal. Sounds quite overwhelming, but there are ways that I teach you in the book as to how you can get extra protein in your diet without necessarily having to rely on more meat, fish, eggs, or certainly not bars and protein shakes.
Sakina: Okay, okay. So like people go online, they calculate the number, they have this number, and then through different recipes, they can meet that target. You've said that there are maybe benefits to going higher. Is there a limit? How much is too much? Because I see a lot of like trends online of people eating really high amounts of protein with lots of protein shakes and it's like trying to hit like 100, you know, grams. Yeah, it was something maybe not, but like a lot, very high numbers. Is there a limit? Is there a point where it becomes detrimental?
Dr Rupy: So when you consume excess protein to your requirements, your body is very efficient at just removing it in the form of urea. So if you do find yourself over-consuming protein, your body knows how to utilize that and just remove it from you. This idea that you're going to be bashing your kidneys and damaging them is really far-fetched and it's completely unproven. If your kidneys are healthy, you're not going to damage them by having extra protein in your diet. Where I do feel people might fall into the trap of over-consuming calories in general, energy in the form of food, um is where they try and hit those extra protein targets beyond 1.6 or two or 2.5 um per per day. Um when I say there are marginal benefits, I think if you're a bodybuilder or an athlete, you may get those extra gains by having that extra amount of protein in your diet. Most people are not maniacal enough to strictly follow regimes that are macronutrient controlled, calorie controlled, etc, etc. So I don't think there are extra benefits of going really, really high. And I would stay against that because you kind of with every every extra bit of protein that you consume, you're pushing out the other nutrients like fibre and other fruit and vegetable components as well to your diet. It's very hard to actually consume that much food as well and that much protein at every meal without actually relying on shakes. So I don't think there are extra benefits to be had. I think you can find a really nice sweet spot at the minimal effective dose. I always think about this concept of minimal effective dose in the in the context of everything, you know, with drugs and when we prescribe pharmaceuticals, we don't want to give you the highest dose. We want to give you the dose that minimizes side effects and gives you the desired outcome. So for you, that might be 10 milligrams of a statin instead of 20 milligrams of a statin. There's no point giving you the extra dose if that's going to come with potentially a suite of side effects as well. So this is the same way that I would see food in the form of nutrition. And I think there are extra benefits depending on the type of protein you choose to consume more of as well.
Sakina: So I think that's a really nice segue into protein sources and where we can actually get that protein. So we have someone who went online, they found their number. They know per meal what would be the ideal amount they need to be getting. Where should we get this protein from? Um and I think the first thing that I am curious about is your opinion on plant versus animal sources. So do you think that one is better? Do you think it's true that animal-based proteins are superior?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so this idea of protein quality is really controversial online. Um let's let's break it down in terms of like how we determine what quality is and how we currently measure quality. So we have a few different scores. I mentioned them in the book. There's the the DAS and the PDCAAS. They're basically measures of how well your body can absorb protein and how bioavailable those proteins are. So when you consume protein, it's broken down into these amino acids. Nine of these amino acids are deemed essential and we need enough of each of these amino acids for it to be deemed a complete profile. Meat products in the form of cheese, red meat, chicken, even eggs, dairy, they all have these nine essential amino acids in good amounts. It's very important to to just state that in good amounts. They also tend to be more available to us as well. They're very easy to absorb into the digestive tract and then across into the bloodstream. Plants on the other hand, if you use the same sort of measuring stick, tend to have an array of amino acids that are incomplete. And the reason why they're deemed incomplete is because they have low amounts of certain amino acids compared to others. Um and that basically marks down the entire score of plant-based proteins against meat proteins, just because like, you know, they're low in a couple of amino acids. Uh they're also deemed less absorbable because they contain fibre, they contain a lot of uh anti-nutrients as they're deemed. I know it's it's a bit of a weird um name because these anti-nutrients are actually quite helpful uh when they're in the correct dose. Um so lectins or saponins, but some of the phytonutrients are actually really beneficial for us are still in that anti-nutrient category. Um they're great, but as long as they're in low doses. So by that, by those standards, plant proteins are less in in the way of quality compared to animal-based proteins. In reality, when you combine plant-based proteins, they tend to cover their their bases. So if you combine a legume with a nut or a grain, you're getting all the good complex of uh a good collection, sorry, of all amino acids. So you don't really need to worry about it too much. The main thing you should be worrying about is are you getting enough total protein? And this is where plant-based proteins is a bit of a conundrum because in general, they do tend to be lower in protein per 100 grams of weight. And I want to talk about weight rather than per calorie because I think a lot of people in the plant-based world always compare plant-based proteins to animal-based proteins by calorie. And I think that's not the best way to compare it because I can consume the same number of calories of steak versus beans, but in terms of volume, I would have to consume a smaller amount of steak to have the same calorie uh content of beans. I'd have to consume a ton more fibre, a ton more of these anti-nutrients, etc, etc, to to meet the same protein levels. So I don't think that's a good measuring stick either. The other thing to know about plant-based proteins is when you remove some of these fibres, so you look at corn and rice and potato isolates, so this is where the plant has gone through a degree of processing to isolate just the amino acids, they work pretty well. They work just as well as whey and casein to be to be honest.
Sakina: And that's looking at metrics like a muscle protein synthesis or?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so they look at metrics like the amino acid profile, the again, the bioavailability. And when you consume, so they've done studies where they give um not athletes, but you know, people who work out whey protein isolate versus a plant-based protein isolate. Take your pick, it could be corn, it could be pea, it could be whatever it is. They tend to have the same in the way of muscle health and gains and hypertrophy, which is a fancy word for muscle growth, and muscle protein synthesis, which is this uh process by which uh your muscles grow and stack on on top of each other and they basically um the process that we want to try and uh upregulate through protein consumption. Um so when you look at those metrics, they're pretty similar. In reality, as long as you consume enough of these building blocks through your choice of whatever foods you want, the outcomes are pretty similar um in terms of what we have available to us in terms of the research. Where plant-based proteins may fall down is if you're totally reliant on plant-based proteins, you need to be really cognizant of where and how much protein you're actually getting. If you're just getting your food from plants, you need to be really cognizant of how much you're getting and the quality of the plant-based proteins that you're getting in terms of whether you're combining and layering these different proteins together. It's far easier to meet your protein needs through an omnivorous diet or an animal-centric diet.
Sakina: So if I understand well, if I can imagine, if I can put it into an image, um it would be animal-based protein would be like going to IKEA and getting a furniture that's already, you know how to assemble it, you have an assembly thing and it's very easy to put together. You get to your house and the the furniture is ready to go. Whereas um plant-based protein would be more like getting pieces of furniture from lots of different places, like little markets and stuff like that. And then you come when you come home, you have to put it together in a way that fits and it's not as straightforward to put together.
Dr Rupy: I actually really like that. Do you think that's a good analogy?
Sakina: Because I was trying to, because it's like not inferior or superior, but it's a different way to pairing it and it's more thinking behind it than just straightforward IKEA manual bomb, you know, like it's a new.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's a really, really interesting way of putting it. The IKEA versus flea market protein creation. Yeah, it's more effort for sure.
Sakina: It is, yeah, it's a lot easier. Like if if it was just like a the case of, okay, if you just want to hit your protein needs, that's why you see a lot of people in the fitness industry just revert to chicken breast. It's everything's chicken breast, chicken breast and this is why I didn't want my book to be anything like that. Um because it's just so easy to just rely on that because you know you've got all your nine essential amino acids. You don't need to think about combinations or protein layering, even though I feel that you should for for more reasons than just protein. But if you are vegan, then you do need to think about like the flea market. You've got to get a leg from here, you've got to get a stool from here, you've got to get like, you know, the same it's it's a really interesting analogy.
Sakina: And make sure it's all coming nicely together in the room you're. But so if if I do eat meat, why can't I just eat chicken breast then? Like what what you know?
Dr Rupy: This is where like if you compare like meat to plants, um meat has its like top trumps. So meat has the benefit of all nine essential amino acids and they have some other benefits as well, some B vitamins, choline, these are all beneficial for lots of different reasons. But where they lack is fibre, they lack phytonutrients, they don't have some other essential micronutrients that we require. Plus they come with a potential caveat that depending on the cut of meat that you consume, whether that's a a fatty chicken leg or a a rib eye steak, you're going to get a high dose of saturated fat. Now there's nothing wrong with saturated fat, it really comes down to the dose. And you can certainly have those products in a healthy diet. I'm not of this uh opinion that you need to remove all sources of meat, including red meat as well, as long as it's lean. I don't think this is something that we should be scaremongering people around. With plants, whilst you do have the trade-off of not having a lovely complete IKEA ready to assemble amino acid profile, um you do get the added benefits of phytonutrients, of fibre, of uh plant chemicals, phytonutrients that we know can reduce cholesterol, those plant sterols, can reduce inflammation in the form of uh isoflavones, uh lignans, and all the extra benefits in terms of the micronutrients that we know like edamame, hemp seeds, fatty acids from nuts and seeds that are anti-inflammatory as well. So this is why like I'm a big fan of like bringing people together almost, you know. There there is a hybrid approach and and that is healthy high protein, not just high protein, healthy high protein.
Sakina: Not at any cost.
Dr Rupy: Not at any cost, exactly.
Sakina: And I think that's a really interesting point that you've made because we talk a lot when the plant-based community about combining protein sources to make sure that you reach all the essential amino acids and you reach your protein target. But with people who eat an omnivore diet or eat, you know, everything, we don't talk a lot about combining. It's kind of easy to just go for one source and rely on one ingredient to meet your protein target. And there's not, I don't hear a lot of people talking about adding plant protein to that, not just the chicken breast or the salmon, not that that's bad, but just adding more benefits from the fibre and the polyphenols.
Dr Rupy: And there's so much benefit to that because, you know, even people who eat enough protein in the form of chicken breast or whatever it might be, you can potentially afford to have less of that meat product, supplement that with a protein plant-based protein partner in the form of like beans or legumes or nuts and seeds, have a lovely little topper, experiment with some of the high protein sources that I also talk about in the book, as a means to still meeting that protein requirement, but you've also got the added benefit of diversity, the extra benefits of those plant materials and extra fibre that a lot of people otherwise lack.
Sakina: So it's kind of like identifying where you you can add, like where you're lacking. So if for example, if I'm thinking I'm vegetarian or I'm eating a plant-based meal and I'm just having a dal with lentils, what could I add to that? And that will probably be like other plant-based proteins if I eat that or an egg or something. Like we have a really nice dal egg recipe that just came out on the app. That I thought was really cool because that's kind of this element of pairing different sources. Or if if I eat, if my plate is mostly just like a piece of fish, what can I add to that? So it's kind of like identifying where you could fill the gaps a bit.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, there's a DNA of all the recipes that people will begin to notice where I always do pair plant-based proteins even in the meat dishes as well. So you won't just find a chicken and rice recipe, you'll find chicken and uh beans and tomatoes and greens, like there's always like a degree of complexity and spreading out the protein load across different ingredients. And I think everyone can benefit from that, whether you are vegetarian or vegan or whether you're an omnivore. And you know, even some of the recipes that we've started doing on the Doctor's Kitchen app are like hybrid or gateway recipes where people who are staunch meat eaters and they do not like the idea of eating lentils or giving up their red meat, you know, we've got a scruffy lasagna recipe that we tested this week and it's a little bit of red meat. There's only 200 grams per four servings. So a very low amount of red meat, but you do not miss it because we've got textures from puy lentils, we have nutritional yeast that also boosts up the protein whilst diving into the umami flavour and amping that up. We also got a little bit of cheese as well because everyone loves a little bit of cheese. Cheese is actually a really good product in the right dose. Um this idea of dose, I think is really, really important, but I couldn't call it like, you know, healthy protein dose or whatever. People wouldn't really get it. It doesn't roll off the tongue. But you know, this idea of like combinations uh and whilst getting your protein amounts up, I think is really it's it's a great strategy for overall health. It's not just about protein needs by any means necessary.
Sakina: Yeah, because in a dish like this, for example, like the bolognese or the scruffy lasagna that you're describing, you're getting enough protein, but also fibre and also diversity. And that's something that's quite different. I think like I've been trying to spread the word to people around me as well, like meat eaters in my life that are just love their meat. It's like, what can you add and how can you reduce the meat, which then also lowers costs. You know, you can have that meat last for the week. Um and then combine another plant protein to make sure that you're still meeting your needs for everything. So I really I really like that idea. Um could you talk us through some of the protein sources that you get every week at the shop?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so I am an omnivore. So I spread my protein requirements across like different sources. We always use oily fish. We have uh things like anchovies, salmon, um I'm a big fan of um uh sardines as well. Um but we also get a little bit of lean meat, so lean chicken, uh and sometimes we do have lean red meat as well. I tend not to have that much red meat, but my wife who's breastfeeding at the moment, she has a hankering for red meat. So we tend to have that as part of our a weekly diet. We also have a healthy amount of tofu. Uh I she loves tofu now. She used to hate it when we first started dating, but now she's an absolute convert. And we use things like extra firm tofu, marinated tofu that I kind of use like a a deli meat, like you can put that into sandwiches, you can put it on the Doctor's Kitchen toast, for example, the Doctor's Kitchen daily bread. Um and lentils and beans as well. Lentils and beans was a bit of a revelation for me because they're actually quite low in protein. Um you know, 8 to 10 grams at a push per 100 grams of cooked material. To meet my protein needs at every meal time, if I was just relying on beans and lentils, I would need at least a couple of cans. Um every single meal time. And I used to think like, oh, this has got chickpeas in my chickpea dal, um I'm good. I don't need to worry about it. And now I look back at those recipes that I would rely on like four or five years ago before I had this realisation around my protein requirements and it's very clear to me that I was under-consuming protein. A salad with a bit of feta cheese and um some butter beans is really low in protein for someone like myself. It might be enough for someone else, but certainly not myself. Um and this is where people fall into the trap of like, okay, I've got to add chicken to everything and this is where the book I think will provide a bit more clarity in that in that area. Um but sorry, going back to my weekly shop. So we always have those sources. Um we have nuts and seeds, hemp seeds, pumpkin seed, sunflower seed, these are always in my cupboards and I use them as toppers, I use them in the bulk of a meal, I use them blended uh as like uh with a a bit of um nutritional yeast as a topper. Like there's so many ways in which you can use nuts and seeds. Um peanuts, almonds, and uh pistachios. Love pistachios, put them on everything. Um and also nut butters, tahini, these are all novel sources of just amping up your protein by a few grams. Just a few touches here and there. A handful of nuts is six to eight grams. Um so, you know, there are so many different ways in which you can just subtly sneak in protein into your meals without relying on on on meat products. Um and then uh the other thing that we always have in our freezer, peas, edamame, broad beans, frozen fish, leftovers, brodo, which is bone broth that my wife makes. Um she's Italian, so it's called brodo. And we add that to, you know, the that could be the base of a vegetarian curry, which is not vegetarian anymore, but you know, these are all ways in which I I sneak in like uh high protein elements into my week. Um but yeah, like the yeah, we're it's so funny like we are constantly asking ourselves like how much protein is in this plate. But the one thing I want to get across to folks is I don't want people to start measuring and weighing their food and being really rigid around how much protein they need every single meal time. I want people to become really good guestimators of how much protein is in a meal and whether they need a little top up. In the same way, I'm a great guestimator of how many cups of water I've had today. I've had about five. I need to drink a little bit more. It's been slightly hot today. I'm, you know, been running around and stuff. I probably need to drink more. Does that make me unnecessarily anxious about how much water I'm drinking every single day? I don't think so. And I don't want people to fall into that trap of, you know, consciously worrying about protein every single day. But I do want people to be generally aware so they can meet their needs. And there there is a lovely healthy balance to be had with that approach to healthy eating in the same way it is to healthy drinking water.
Sakina: I think the tracking point is a very, very good point because, you know, like when we talk about all these numbers, it's like, how do I know if I'm getting enough? Do I need to take an app and track every every single food I eat, which for some people that might work and I think people who work out and all of that, maybe it's their thing, but for me that sounds like I really don't want to do that, you know, I really I don't have the time, I don't have the energy to be like inputting every single food I eat every week or every meal. So how do you become a guestimator? Is that how you call it? Like what what are the steps to get there?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's a it's a really good. I think, you know what, as an exercise, it may be a good thing to determine how much protein you're having in a typical day. So I'll give you an example and this is the big realisation for me during my masters. I basically analysed what I was eating in a typical day when I was working in A&E. I'm having an overnight oats uh dish, um that is oats, bit of fruit, uh plant milk and some some diversity and like berries and whatever else. I'd have a simple, you know, chickpea curry leftover for my lunch. And then in the evening, I might have had, um it could be like a a salad with like feta and uh cranberries, whatever it might be. Anyways, very healthy, very diverse, high in fibre, meeting all the sort of typical tick boxes for any generally healthy day. When you look at it through the lens of protein, my gosh, it was really low. So the overnight oats typically is around 15 grams of protein. My chickpea dish, depending on how many chickpeas I was having, again might be only 15, 20 grams. Um even with all the combinations, you know, chickpea with a bit of brown rice and all the rest of it. And my dinner, you know, depending if I wasn't having meat, I could be under-consuming, it could be like 30 grams. Bear in mind, I've already said that my total protein, the ideal amount of protein I should be consuming is 120. If you tot all those numbers up, you know, it's it's sub 60 grams. It's almost half of what my current needs are. Stretch that out over weeks and and months, like I'm seriously under-consuming protein for my needs, which can have a detrimental impact on not just my ability to perform exercise in the gym, but also my risk of frailty and sarcopenia as I age. We need to be investing in our muscular health today because this is sort of like our pension pot for later on. Because unfortunately, our muscles are generally going to deteriorate as we age and this is something that I think everyone needs to take really, really seriously, particularly if you're in those vulnerable groups that are at risk of of mild protein deficiency that compounds over time. And so looking at that sort of exercise, I was like, okay, what can I do with my overnight oats? I still have overnight oats every day. I love it, or most days. What have I done to boost it up? Nut butter, hemp seeds, more pumpkin seeds. I still have uh berries, but sometimes I'll have cacao. Cacao is really high in protein. It's one of these novel protein sources from the plant-based uh uh ingredients section that has nine essential amino acids and it's full of flavanols and we've done research on that how it can, you know, improve improve blood flow and lower your blood pressure and improve your brain health, etc. Really, really healthy ingredient, big, big fan. I still add oats to that, but I'll have two tablespoons of oats and I'll have two tablespoons of flax as well because flax again is high in fibre and high in protein. So that's just one way in which I've amped up my oats to be super high in protein. That's now like, you know, 25 to 30 grams. In fact, there's one in the book that I think is around 35 grams. It's souped it up. I haven't had to rely on meat, I haven't had to rely on a protein powder. If you want to push it further, yeah, fine, have a protein powder. I've got some guidelines around protein powders that we can get to a little bit later. Um but that's one way in which you can do high protein healthy. Um same thing for uh lunch. So if I am going to have the same chickpea curry, I'm going to make sure that I've added some element of uh like tahini to that, nutritional yeast to that. I've got like a a protein topper as well, um just to boost that protein content. I can boost that by 10, 15 grams, great. And then the same thing for dinner, I'll be making sure that I center my meal around something that is relatively high in protein and I'm also ensuring that I'm like guestimating handful of nuts here, whatever, whatever. Even nuts and and seeds as a snack in between these different meals is a way of just subtly boosting up my protein content without relying on shakes and bars because I don't think those deserve a place in our regular diet as a one-off, fine, but not as a daily staple.
Sakina: Okay, so you have all these numbers in mind, which like you've kind of learned through your research and you kind of know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, and there's also a double page spread in the book that I forgot.
Sakina: Yes, we did a whole table like compiling all the all the protein amounts in different foods.
Dr Rupy: And there's beautiful pictures as well of like all the different protein sources and and how much protein there is. This I think is probably the most useful section of the book where people will understand how they they can be good guestimators of protein because you'll notice when you when you read the book, I haven't given you the exact amounts. There are the exact amounts in the in the index section in the appendices, but uh like cooked fish, for example, 100 grams is 25 grams of protein. Depending on the type of fish, it could be 30 grams, it could be 22 grams. It doesn't really matter. It it what matters is you're getting a good dose of protein. Um the same thing with cooked grains, cooked beans, nuts and seeds, you'll become a good guestimator when you know roundabout like how much is in these different foods that are super accessible and easy to supplement into your diet.
Sakina: And if I'm not a number person and I don't want to look at these numbers, can I just look at how many protein sources are on my plate and that's enough to kind of get an idea or do you think we need to be aware of these numbers?
Dr Rupy: My hunch is that I think it's a good exercise, but I appreciate that not everyone is a numbers person. And so thinking about high protein sources, source categories is a good uh thing to to be aware of. So what is your core protein source? If is it chicken, is it salmon, is it whatever it might, it could be tempeh, which is one of my favourite ingredients, tofu. Oh sorry, I forgot to add that to my my weekly shop.
Sakina: Tempeh. Yeah, I was surprised when you didn't say tempeh.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, tempeh, yeah, yeah, tempeh is definitely high on my ingredient list. Um ensure that you're getting a good dose of that. It could be just a handful of a big sort of portion of your hand. And then make sure you've got a plant-based partner. So that's edamame, it could be peas, it could be uh beans or legumes. Again, like a small handful of that. And then ensure you're getting a nut and seed topper. Again, use your hand, pumpkin seeds, pistachio, sesame seeds, a mixture of all those. If you do that at every meal time, you don't need to worry about the numbers too much. Uh and that way you know that you're getting a good dose of protein at each meal time. Where I think it falls down is people don't remember the numbers and they still want to have cereal in the morning or they just want to have a simple oats thing in the morning. Like I'm not saying that these aren't healthy, maybe cereals, um but you you do need to think about it a little bit more. And the benefits are there to be accrued. We talked about it at the start of this pod. You know, it's not just about aesthetics, it's not just about muscle health, it's about how you feel, it's about cravings, it's about focus, it's about ensuring that you are doing the best for the building blocks of your body. Because if you under-consume protein, your body will search and figure out ways in which to take protein from other parts of your body. And that largely comes from your muscle, your muscles. It will break down muscles and repackage them into the protein building blocks for building, you know, immune cells and enzymes and uh organs and all the rest of it. So it's really important to at least have some idea of how much protein you require every day.
Sakina: So we were talking about late training. Um so if if you train late like me, like after work, for example, like me, um would you then recommend that you need to have a protein snack or a protein dinner after training if it's like, you know, at 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. or can you wait until the next day?
Dr Rupy: It's a bit of a conundrum for a lot of people in your situation. This is one of the reasons why I don't train in the evening. I used to train in the evening and I don't anymore. I train faster in the morning. Um so, if you've just trained, I do think it is important to refuel and not to go to bed hungry. So I would have a light dinner um after training, such that you get some food, you get some dose of protein, but not too much that it overloads your digestive tract and disrupts your sleep and and can also inhibit melatonin, which is colloquially known as the sleepy hormone, even though it does a lot more than just get you in a sleepy state. So I would say a light dinner, again with a core source of protein, uh but not too heavy that it disrupts your sleep. And the next day, your breakfast should be really important in terms of ensuring that you're refueling, um because uh refueling after, you know, intense workout sessions like you do, so Sakina does martial arts training. Um it's uh I think it's really important. Um so you again, you look after the the resilience and the um the the quality of your of your muscle health as well.
Sakina: And I guess overnight you've been fasting, so you're depleted from those amino acids, right? So you need to kind of replete the the results.
Dr Rupy: This is a really important point. Um you know, after the evening, after an extended period of rest, you do need to replenish those amino acids first thing in the morning. And I think that's something that perhaps doesn't get enough attention. You know, I'm a fan of like skipping breakfast if people want to skip breakfast as a means to help them stay within calorie balance and not over-consume and like, you know, have some gentle rules or guidelines around it. Um but it shouldn't be at the detriment of your protein requirements.
Sakina: Okay, so ideally, um having protein at every single meal, breakfast maybe is especially important. But the most important is hitting your your target no matter how many how many meals and snacks can help with that, I'm sure. Um okay, so we've talked through all your your go-to protein sources. Can you tell us through what's going on in your mind when you're making a meal? So if you have all your protein sources in your fridge and your pantry and your freezer, um how are you building a meal that's high protein?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so I'm always thinking core protein source, plant-based protein partner, and a topper or like a a sauce that's like going to give me, tick all the boxes for enough protein, it's going to give me enough fibre, and it's also going to give me diversity as well. So that's the way I always think about um building meals.
Sakina: Okay, so we've talked through um all the different ways to build a meal. If you're vegetarian, if I'm vegetarian or vegan and you know, like um I don't want to eat any animal-based protein, how can I make the most of the plant-based sources that I do have?
Dr Rupy: So there's a few techniques that I think have been passed on through generations and I think we need to lean into those a lot more, right? So there's sprouting, so sprouting lentils, sprouting seeds, sprouting nuts. Um it can be as simple as just soaking your nuts overnight. Um this actually releases a lot of those amino acids. And if you can spend the time to take that one step further and actually fully sprout them, you're actually going to get more bang for your buck as well. So I think soaking and sprouting, brilliant, and we should all be doing a lot more of that. I've actually started doing that myself. So, you know, when you get raw almonds from the store, just put them in a glass of water overnight and then the next day, pour out that water, rinse them, dry them, and those are quote unquote activated. So these are uh a little bit more digestible for us. You've reduced some of the anti-nutrients and you get a little bit more of the protein as a result of that as well. Um so that's one way. Um fermenting as well. So tempeh is an example of how a fermenting a soybean actually makes the proteins more bioavailable. We actually talked about this with Dr. Ando on the podcast all about tempeh. And tempeh isn't a specific type of product, it's actually a process. So you can ferment or you can tempeh with loads of different core ingredients. In the same way you can make tofu from chickpeas or mung beans, you can make uh the the same from from soybeans as well. So utilizing those techniques in, you know, with red lentils and among beans. I mean, I personally don't have time for this. So I do these, but like the the the one thing that I will do is uh protein layering. So ensuring that you're getting a mixture of different proteins at every single meal to not only just cover the bases, but also increase the total protein content of your meal. So, you know, if you're making a curry, for example, and you've got like the base of onions and ginger and garlic and you add tomatoes and you add chickpeas, I'm not just going to add chickpeas anymore. I'm going to think about adding nutritional yeast to that or a type of nut butter or tahini. And then I'm also going to think about maybe, oh, maybe I'm going to add like a lentil to this dish on top of the chickpeas as well. So I'm getting a boost of that. And then I'll probably end up crumbling in some tofu as well, like that I've uh put some olive oil and salt on top of, baked in the oven, so it's kind of got that extra texture, almost like chicken. And I add that. So, you know, and sometimes I might use chicken instead or leftover pieces of chicken. That's fine, but I'm always thinking about layering in extra protein sources just to boost that total number up.
Sakina: And I think that's a really good image that you've left us with. I feel like it's just like quite creative, you know, like you don't have to always stick to strict rigid recipes. It's like you can, we're all us as often our recipe creators, it's like you can you can think outside the box of recipes and just add different um ingredients that would not be in the traditional recipe. And even your your wife and your your father-in-law approved the recipe of like the lasagna with meat and lentils. So that's quite nice to know.
Dr Rupy: Totally. And actually in the book, like there's ways in which to boost every uh recipe in terms of the protein content, but also gives you like it gives you loads of different ideas of how you can layer different proteins into each meal. Um and one of the things that I'm really proud of actually with the book and the recipes is that not only do we give you the total protein content per serving, but also the amount of fibre and the number of plant points as well. So for example, the salmon, squash and grilled peach salad has got 42 grams of protein per serving and almost 10 grams of fibre and over six plant points with ways in which you can add more protein by adding more walnuts or tahini. You can add more salmon if you wanted, but you can also add it with with walnuts and tahini. So it's it's I'm really proud of this book. I should probably tell.
Sakina: It's good. Yeah. And it's a way to eat your protein, fibre and variety all in all in one recipe. So that's really great. Oh, I'm looking forward to how people receive it as well.
Dr Rupy: Thanks, Sakina. This has been great.
Sakina: Yeah, nice.
