Dr Rupy: Max, thank you so much for letting me use your wonderful studio, man. This is awesome.
Max Lugavere: Thanks for coming out. Yeah, it's my pleasure. It's a brand new studio too, so I hope nothing falls off the ceiling.
Dr Rupy: It's got that brand new smell. I love it. Okay, look, you've been a science journalist for a number of years now. I said to you before, I think you've got one of the most balanced opinions online. You're not like binary, you're not like pure carnivore, you're not pure plant-based. I think you see the sort of nuance in all these different conversations. So, I think what would be a really good conversation today between me and you is discussing some of the biggest nutrition controversies online and just talking through the pros, the cons, the arguments on both sides and where you stand and where I stand on that. How does that sound?
Max Lugavere: Sounds great.
Dr Rupy: Sick. All right, let's dive into seed oils.
Max Lugavere: Wow, straight into the deep end.
Dr Rupy: Right into the deep end. So I'll set the scene for for folks who haven't sort of come across seed oils before. So seed oils are a very big topic online. They're basically defined as a vegetable oil that is produced by either cold pressing the seed or the nut. There's an expeller method as well, which is under pressure. And then also there's the use of solvents like hexanes to extract the oil, which is quite hard to get from the seed itself. And there are a whole bunch of other processes that are required in certain cases to get the oil from the seed originally. This differs from fruit oils like olive oil and avocado, and then also other types of cooking fats like ghee or beef tallow or even coconut oil is a different sort of oil. So now we've set the scene of of seed oils, why do people have so much beef with seed oils?
Max Lugavere: No pun intended, right? Well, because there's a lot of, there's this polarity in the discussion where you'll see many on social media either claim that seed oils are the root cause of all of the problems that we're seeing in the Western world from obesity to heart disease to cancer. You can just rattle off the list of chronic conditions that some will attribute seed oil exposure to. And then you've got many, often in the quote unquote evidence-based community, that portray seed oils as not just benign, but totally beneficial to health and oils that we should actually be seeking to actively include in our diets. And to set the stage, seed oils are a fairly novel food ingredient. Seed oils, the way that we colloquially discuss them, didn't exist in the human food supply prior to about 100 years ago. And to be clear on what it is that we're referring to when we say colloquially seed oils, seed oils are not a monolith. So the seed oils in question, to be clear, are what the food industry actually refers to as RBD oils. So these are oils that have been refined, bleached and deodorised. And so the oils in question typically are canola oil, in the UK you call it rapeseed oil, I believe. Soybean oil, corn oil, there's grapeseed oil, there's sunflower oil. And generally, these oils are highly marketed. So you'll see ads on television for them. You'll see them typically in the supermarket in plastic bottles adorned with, in the US, we have the red heart check logo, giving, signifying an endorsement by the American Heart Association. And these oils, even among the RBD seed oils, they, an oil, a seed oil isn't quite a seed oil. They're not a monolith either. So we have oils that are predominantly monounsaturated fat, we have seed oils that are predominantly polyunsaturated fat. The sort of halo, the health halo that surrounds them that they all typically have in common is that they're low in saturated fat. So compared to animal source fats, they are low in saturated fat, which in many will lead to at least, at the very least, a small reduction in comparison to saturated fats in LDLC.
Dr Rupy: Which is a low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, which is a measure that we use as a cardiovascular risk profile, or a risk marker. Yeah.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. So it's true that seed oils compared to, when consuming seed oils compared to, for example, beef tallow or coconut oil, typically in a randomised controlled trial, it might show a reduction in LDLC, right? But to me, that's a false dichotomy. It's like not an either or proposition for most people. Like to me, I'm not making a choice between using seed oils or using butter. You could either choose to use seed oils or not use seed oils. The primary issue with them is that they are extracted from the plant, the whole food matrix, the plant matrix. Like you'll never find fresh soybean oil because that doesn't exist. Like soybean oil doesn't arrive on the shelf after soybeans have been pressed to extract their oil. They have to be, these oils have to be refined, extracted often using harsh chemical solvents like hexane, which is a neurotoxin. Very low residues are found in the end product, if any at all. So that's not the concern. The primary concern is that the seed oils that are primarily polyunsaturated are the most chemically unstable. They're the most prone to a chemical, a form of chemical degradation called oxidation. Now, I'm not a chemist, but oxidation is a form of chemical rot that you can't necessarily see. When you slice an apple and you leave it out on the counter and it turns brown, I mean, that's oxidation at work. It's essentially a form of rust that happens to foods. And this is occurring to seed oils when exposed to light, heat and oxygen. And that process, and that occurs with all fats, but it occurs most readily to these polyunsaturated fat dominant seed oils. And that process is accelerated when exposed to, as I mentioned, heat, but particularly in, for example, the restaurant setting or the food processing setting, the chronic heat and in particular the reheating of these fats. And so the fats can oxidise, which is essentially again them being damaged. And also, so that can generate free radicals. And then as a byproduct of oxidation, these aldehyde chemicals are generated like 4-hydroxynonenal and acrolein and all these other nasty compounds that we know are just not beneficial to human health. They've been associated with cancer and stuff like that. Among the RBD seed oils, some are, quote unquote, better than others. Some are more chemically stable than others. So high oleic sunflower oil, which is often used in ultra-processed foods, is really not that bad because it has a chemical profile similar to a fatty acid profile similar to avocado oil. But the concern is that when you're consuming oils that are more polyunsaturated in nature, they have more double bonds, like soybean oil or corn oil, that you're essentially consuming damaged fats, which over time can damage you. Now, human trials don't really bear that out. So that's where the confusion occurs. There's not a lot of human data to show that these oils are actually all that harmful. A lot of people will say that they're inflammatory. Well, the human randomised control trials don't necessarily show an increase in inflammatory markers. But the science is not settled. And so that's where people who have a broader understanding of biochemistry are like, wait a minute, but these oils are still, you're still generating these noxious compounds, including trans fats, which all of these oils have to some degree when they're exposed to that deodorisation step in the RBD process. So I think that it's justified to be cautious when consuming them, particularly at in the quantities that that people are now consuming them today. 100 years ago, the primary fat in a person's diet was primarily of animal origin. Like 90%, something like 90% of the fats that a person would consume in the United States came from animal source foods. Today, the vast majority of fats are coming from these ultra-processed oils, usually by way of ultra-processed foods. We know that ultra-processed foods are not beneficial, right? But the question still remains, like what is the chronic overconsumption of these fats doing to our health? And the jury is still out. We do know that they do seem to positively impact surrogate markers like LDL, right? But we don't know necessarily, we know that LDL is associated with cardiovascular risk and all that, but we still don't know essentially what these oils are doing over the long term and also to other organ systems, like to our brains. And that's my primary area of concern because my mom had dementia. And there's a really good paper written by Taha, and there are other researchers that are that are, you know, that are exploring the concerns in a really rigorous way, like Ramsden, people can look up papers by Taha, Ramsden and others, that are showing that or at least suggesting that these kinds of fats when overconsumed are not doing our our brain health any favours. So I just think it warrants a little bit of scepticism. And also from the pragmatic side, the most robust evidence as a health beneficial oil to use in the kitchen is for extra virgin olive oil. So when given the choice, I know it could be cost prohibitive potentially, but extra virgin, it's like to me, it doesn't make any sense why one would choose, you know, just when viewed through the lens of the precautionary principle alone, why anybody would choose to use one of these RBD seed oils over extra virgin olive oil.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I I like I love how you've set the scene there because I think that's really important to sort of provide context and balance to both sides. And I agree with the precautionary principle. And I think, you know, if I was playing devil's advocate, people could also use that same precautionary principle against sort of eating animal products as well. We know like when we cook animal products, meat and fats, you can get polyaromatic hydrocarbons formed. We know that that can be inflammatory. And actually, it's kind of why that even though I eat animal-based products and fish and red meat occasionally and all the rest of it, I always make sure to combine that with herbs and spices and greens and all these other anti-inflammatory products to sort of like mitigate against that. And then I also use things like, you know, extra virgin olive oil as well. I think that can be used again in the same way against eating animal products for the same reasons, right? Oh, it's potentially inflammatory. We actually know that it is inflammatory when you consume it alone and it's not in the context of like a more balanced diet. So using the same analogy, people might say, well, you know, as long as you're having vegetables and as long as you're, you know, your food is of a Mediterranean pattern with nuts and seeds and vegetables, then you don't really need to worry about the potential inflammatory profile of these oils. And some of those arguments are sort of hyped up.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I mean, my my, I guess response to that would be the part of what I think, part of the definition of the precautionary principle to me is that the longer a food or a product has been, you know, that humans have been exposed to it, the less caution we need to use, which isn't to say that all things that are natural are safe. That's certainly not true. But, you know, these RBD oils are, they're novel again. Like we, these are a byproduct of the food industry. I mean, they were initially engineered for to be to be used as engine lubricants, which is not to say that they shouldn't be consumed. But like take grapeseed oil. Grapeseed oil was like, you know, that's a byproduct of the wine industry. Like they would use grapes to create wine and they would throw out the seeds when one industrious entrepreneur realised you could actually, you know, press these oils, extract the, press the seeds, extract the oil and then run it through myriad industrial processing steps. And now we see grapeseed oil being used in everything from granola bars to salad dressings. I just think it's, you know, and speaking of salad dressings, that is the primary vehicle, right, of most people's exposure to these oils. It's because we use oil in salad dressing and it's very cost effective to make a commercial salad dressing utilising one of these oils as opposed to extra virgin olive oil. And so that to me is also kind of illustrates where the, you know, some of the pitfalls of observational research that seems to show that higher levels of consumption of these fats seems to be associated with better health. Well, there's healthy user bias there because one of the primary routes of ingestion is by way of salad dressing. So for somebody who's regularly eating salads and using these fats, well, they might be more inclined to take a multivitamin or exercise or be less inclined to smoke or drink excessive amounts of alcohol. We also know that animal source fats like butter and foods like red meat, I mean, we see the same problems in the epidemiology regarding those kinds of foods where, you know, we've been told for decades that butter is unhealthy, that red meat is unhealthy. So the epidemiologic literature does seem to show that people who eat more red meat are also more likely to smoke, they're more likely to be overweight, sedentary, etc. So the observational literature, I think, is not all that trustworthy. And the randomised control trials are a little bit all over the place. They tend to be short term and they tend to primarily focus on these again, surrogate markers as opposed to, you know, hard clinical outcomes.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I also appreciate that point about not overinterpreting LDLC as a surrogate marker for health. I don't know if you've come across Nick Norwitz, he's done an interesting N of 1 experiment where he consumed Oreo cookies and actually was able to drop his, albeit very high starting point of cholesterol measured in his blood, massively by consuming more Oreo cookies and actually having an isocaloric diet. And that kind of was a bit like a real eye opener for me because I think I am probably guilty of overinterpreting studies based on a surrogate marker that is as impactful as LDLC. So I think that's a really important point to remember whenever interpreting any study, regardless of whether we're looking at something that is sort of universally agreed as healthy, like nuts and seeds, for example, or something that is as controversial as a seed oil. And also the sort of anti-inflammatory effects of seed oils. And also, I think within this whole category of seed oils, there are different qualities. And I'm not too sure if these studies actually made sure to account for that. So there are cold pressing extraction methods for some sorts of sunflower oils that I guess would maintain the vitamin E content of the actual seed that is kept within the oil versus some of the RBD oils that are refined and then they're deodorised, etc, that might actually strip the vitamin E component, which is actually having a beneficial anti-inflammatory. I mean, this is just, you know, I'm just hypothesising here. I don't actually have any evidence for either way, but I think it's important to have that conversation as to why people might be sort of fearful enough to take a pragmatic approach and avoid them until we have further evidence to suggest.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, they're beneficial. Absolutely. I mean, as I said earlier, seed oils are not a monolith. So sesame seed oil is great because to make sesame seed oil, all you're doing is you're pressing the sesame seeds and that's been a culinary oil that's been used for centuries in Japanese cuisine. So it's important not to get mired in dogma and to be able to think more, you know, in a more nuanced way. And I think that's unfortunately often lost, you know, in social media today. It's kind of a bummer. But going back to the, you know, the over the overinterpretation of studies that that tend to find like, for example, a reduced like LDLC. You know, it's it's worth noting that infants that are breastfed versus infants that are formula fed, infants that are breastfed tend to have higher LDLC. Does that mean that formula is healthier than breast milk? I don't think so. Who would agree with that? So it's important not to get, not to become ideologically captured and to not make LDL our this deity, you know, that we are blindly low LDL levels that we are blindly chasing. I think I'm not saying that LDL is not important. I'm not saying that high LDL is good. I'm saying that it needs to be viewed within within context.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I completely agree with that. And I think, you know, some of the association studies are hijacked by certain influences online to suggest that the increased consumption of seed oils over the last 50 years associated with higher rates of cardiometabolic disease, obesity, dementia, etc, is enough evidence to suggest that we should be removing all seed oils from our diet. And I think that's just like a conflation of the evidence. And I think that's way overinterpreting an association, which doesn't necessarily have that causative element, which I know that you understand, but a lot of people online would would not understand that. So there's an important nuance and an important distinction to make within all of these studies, regardless if they're demonstrating a benefit of seed oils or something to the contrary.
Max Lugavere: Amen. Yeah, well said.
Dr Rupy: Um, so what kind of seed oils do you actually use if you're, so you mentioned sesame oil, do you use any others?
Max Lugavere: I don't use, I don't use any. I try to, I try to, no, I try, honestly, I try to, because I think it's important to be transparent. You know, I see a lot of like nutrition, quote unquote, experts on social media who, you know, I've I've I've actually seen this because I, you know, I'm, I try to, here's the thing about nutrition controversies. I think it's always really important. This is what I try to do on my podcast and my work. I try to steel man. I always try to steel man the opposing argument to try to understand it as best I can. And it's a good strategy, man. Yeah. So I do, I pay attention. I don't engage publicly in controversy because I think that's fruitless. But, but I see a lot of people who will, you know, publicly claim that, for example, organic is a scam. Like literally they'll say that. But then you go to their stories and they'll, you know, sometimes they'll reveal their like weekly shopping hauls and they buy organic. I'm like, why are you spending any money whatsoever on organic if you believe it's a scam? It's just a misalignment of values and action and or or the the sort of public advocacy. And so I don't use any seed oils. I use primarily extra virgin olive oil. And I use avocado oil sometimes when I'm cooking at higher temperatures. And then, you know, I mean, like now it's it's become sort of commonplace for restaurants here in the US at least, like some are, you know, are excusing seed oils entirely and are now like making, for example, French fries or chips as you call them, right? Like in tallow. And I'll seek those out. I will, because I'm more comfortable in a restaurant eating French fries or chips that have been fried in a more chemically stable fat like tallow. I'm not saying tallow is a health food, but I'd rather that than, you know, consume fries that have been fried in, you know, soybean oil or one of these fats that have just been sitting in the fryer all day.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Max Lugavere: Because I pull my audience and a lot of my, you know, people who follow me have worked in restaurants and they say they'll they'll claim that, you know, in in restaurants often the oils in these fryers aren't changed for days, sometimes weeks. They're filtered, they're strained maybe filtered, but they're not fully changed. And that's dangerous. I mean, you're you're exposing yourself to these mutagenic compounds, aldehydes and the like. So, but yeah, at home, it's primarily extra virgin. I mean, you've been in my kitchen. The only the only bottle, the only oil that's out is extra virgin olive oil.
Dr Rupy: Is it extra virgin olive oil? And it's in a bottle that is completely encapsulated. So there's no light that's getting in there. It's at a cool temperature. So you're taking care of your oil as best as you can. We have similar oil profiles in terms of my preference. So I will use extra virgin olive oil that's cold pressed and usually has a high polyphenol count. I I always make sure to see whether they've actually gone the extra mile and done an independent lab test because I think that's a marker of like a transparent company. I don't know if you tried blueprint, Brian Johnson's brand. I tried that oil. It's way too bitter for me. So it like they've gone the other direction where they've gone like super high in terms of the polyphenols, but I actually think that can be at the detriment of taste. So I like to keep a balance there. I use sesame oil, I'll use avocado oil. I tend not to have any other oils in my kitchen. I have used rapeseed oil before because there is a brand in the UK where they use like a cold pressed method to to to extract the oil. And I don't have too many concerns about that, but that's not my primary oil. When I'm out, if I'm going to be eating French fries, I know that there's going to be advanced glycation end products. It's not a healthy meal, refined starches. They've probably whacked in some extra starches in there, potato starch, whatever. I'm just going to lean into it. And I don't know whether the extra oil, we don't even have beef tallow beef tallow chips in the UK yet. I think it's coming. I don't know if there's enough evidence for me to suggest seeking out those chips or fries you call them, for yeah, for for me to qualify to myself at least that like this is actually having a measurable impact on my health. So I I'm I'm a bit more laissez-faire than you about that. But I think it's really it's important to be transparent because even though I'm not on the opinion or not of the opinion that there is enough human evidence to suggest that seed oils are harmful, I still avoid them. So there's probably a like a bias at the back of my mind where I'm a bit pragmatic where I tend not to consume them because I'm I'm sort of on the fence. So
Max Lugavere: Yeah. I mean, I think it's important always to to remind people that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And that's where the precautionary principle, I think, plays a plays a role. And at the end of the day, French fries are still French fries. Like you overconsume French fries. You know, they're they're they're calorie dense, they're prone to overconsumption. So I'm not fooling myself and I don't eat them very often. But I personally, I would rather eat them having been fried in tallow or even more ideally, an unsaturated fat like extra virgin olive oil or avocado oil.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, cool. All right. I'm glad we had this conversation. It's good. I like this about seed oils because it's one of those things that can either divide opinion or it can actually bring people together if they see the other person's opinion side. So that's great. Um, let's talk about something else that's controversial. Soy. Soy. So in the form of, I mean, we've already talked about soy in the form of soybean oil. So we'll take that out of the conversation, but tofu, tempeh, you know, there's a lot of chatter online about how these are feminising, the phytoestrogens can mess up our hormones. This isn't something that we should be using as a primary source of protein. What's your take on that?
Max Lugavere: So the there is this, I think, long-standing myth that soy is feminising, the because of the isoflavones in soy that have weak estrogenic properties, but I think that the randomised literature doesn't bear out that soy is in fact feminising. And I think that soy can be a great additive source of protein. It's very high on the quality scale. It's high, I believe soy is like the highest in terms of its quality as a plant protein. My go-to for protein tends to be animal source proteins. So I tend to reach for, you know, beef, chicken, eggs, fish, things like that. But I'm not afraid of soy. Like I'll I enjoy edamame, which I think is a fantastic food. I don't I don't buy tofu. I don't eat it often, but I'm not, again, I'm not afraid of it. There is, there was an interesting study that came out a couple of years ago that compared in the post-workout setting the anabolic response of soy protein to whey protein. And it seemed like the soy protein did have, it didn't have as strong of an anabolic signal. I believe they looked at post-exercise testosterone spike. I could be wrong, so don't don't, you know, quote me on this. But when you zoom out and you look at plant protein consumers, when people who are on plant-based diets consume enough protein, when they consume adequate protein, they don't seem to be limited in terms of their muscle growth compared to omnivores. So it's not something that I'm really all that concerned about. I just, you know, my my go-to as an omnivore when trying to prioritise the most nutrient dense protein sources that I can, soy is not generally something that I'm reaching for, but I'm also not afraid of it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that opinion. And I share the same opinion on soy. I think as a proportion of the protein that I consume every week is probably a larger proportion than yours. And that's primarily because I'm looking at some of the other potential benefits of cardiovascular health. It's got a good amount of fibre in, the isoflavones that you alluded to, the phytoestrogens. There's a potential impact on mitigating cancer risk as well. There was, I think there's a myth that, you know, it is pro-cancerous, but actually the evidence shows that it's anti-cancerous, particularly for women as well. There may be some bone mineral density benefits as well, potentially because of the protein, but also because of those isoflavones. And then in Asian studies, because they they contain microbes that are equal producers, there seems to be some benefits for menopausal symptoms as well, mild, but enough to demonstrate significance in some of these studies. So I think for those reasons, it's part of my diet. I can understand some of the rationale for avoidance. There's the processing argument because you do need to process, particularly when you're consuming something like tofu, you do need to process it from the soybean itself. You need to have some additives to it, but there are better additives that you can find that are minimally processed. And often, particularly with this wave of of like vegan foods, a lot of soy products are poorly sourced. So there's GMO soy and there's inorganic soy. And also they're combined with emulsifiers and flavourings and because tofu is pretty bland, let's be honest. Unless you put loads of flavour into it, it's not going to taste great. So when you buy those ready-made products, that's not great. That's basically an ultra-processed food, which is going to be damaging for your microbes and etc. So, so I can understand sort of the rationale for avoiding those products, but you know, I usually go for the whole thing. And then there are so many different ways in which you can utilise it.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I would say that I don't, I don't fear it. I don't, I don't prioritise it, but I definitely consume some soy. I mean, I think that natto is one of the healthiest foods you can eat. I think natto is incredible. The more I learn about natto, the more I'm like, I should be eating this stuff every day.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Explain what natto is to folks who haven't come across this.
Max Lugavere: So natto, it's a Japanese dish. It's usually used as a garnish. I don't know for sure. I don't think it's used as a main dish. It's used, you know, people will consume small amounts of it. But, um, but yeah, it's it's frequently consumed in Japan, in Okinawa, one of the, you know, parts of the world where people tend to live a long time. Um, I hesitate to use the term blue zone because I think blue zone is a little bit of a scam, honestly. But, um, but no, natto, it's so it's a fermented soybean dish and it's the top source, it's loaded with vitamin K2. Yes, yeah. Which is a menaquinone, which is a really powerful vitamin that helps to regulate calcium in the body. It helps to maintain calcium homeostasis. And there's some other like, there's really cool literature on vitamin K2, which tends to be underconsumed today. It's also a fantastic source of nattokinase, which is a really interesting compound that's being studied in the setting of longevity. It's sort of anti, it's like a, it breaks down proteins like scar tissue and stuff like that. I don't know, there's like a whole body of literature on nattokinase and I've only just like started to scratch the surface, but really powerful stuff there. And then spermidine is another like one of these like powerful longevity compounds that is abundant in natto. So
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah. I didn't realise spermidine was in natto.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I think it's a major source. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah.
Max Lugavere: I mean, spermidine was first identified in, well, you can kind of interpret from the name. Um, you know, but, uh, but they've also found it in food. It's I think wheat bran is another major source of spermidine. Um, so spermidine supplements might, you know, often times they're not gluten-free because they come they're derived from wheat, but I think they're also it's also very abundant in natto. So
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I remember the first time I had natto, I was in Japan. This is like 10 years ago when I was living in Sydney and I travelled to Japan. It was only like seven or eight hours. And, uh, a guy gave it to me with a smile on his face. And I remember just getting the chopsticks and like picking it up and like fresh natto is like stringy, almost like mozzarella cheese that's melted. And, uh, it does not taste great the first time you eat it. It's like smelly socks.
Max Lugavere: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: But, um, loads of health benefits.
Max Lugavere: Loads of health benefits. I, the best way that I've found to eat it is you just put a little bit of tamari sauce on it, which is another soy-based product, which I also consume. I eat my sushi with tamari. And, uh, it's very high in protein with like a tablespoon or two of tamari, you get a couple grams of soy protein. And so yeah, you just put a little bit of tamari on natto and I think it's, I think it's good.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's great. And some other benefits of soy as well. I mean, I think one of the biggest concerns is this sort of feminising effect. And you hear a lot of people within the sort of paleo/carnivore community talking about like, you know, you don't want to have soy because it's, you know, going to give you breasts and it's going to give you gynecomastia and all the rest of it and it's going to make you infertile. But those studies really came from animal studies, so rodent studies where they gave super physiological doses of soy and it was literally the supplemental form of soy isoflavones at like 30 times higher a dose than we would ever have in a typical serving of tofu. So, and they were giving them to pregnant rats as well. So there's a whole bunch of issues and considerations. And I think if you gave that kind of phytochemical, a plant chemical in those doses of multiple things that we know are healthy, like sulfurous compounds in cruciferous vegetables, you're going to have a detrimental effect. There's going to be goitrogenic effects, there's going to be thyroid effects, there's going to be pro-cancerous effects. So it's just something to sort of bear in mind whenever you see people showing studies online that give a sort of like sense of authority where actually they're quoting animal-based studies. And whilst those are important, certainly to inform mechanistic opinion, it's not the be all and end all and you really have to look at the human trial evidence. And actually, almost uniformly, the human evidence shows benefits of consuming soy in the diet. So
Max Lugavere: Yeah, and also the fermentation of soy, if I recall correctly, you might know better than I, but reduces any in any case, the those isoflavones.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, like the I always say to people who struggle with consuming beans and legumes in general, there are a few strategies you can use to improve the digestibility of it. One is fermentation, which is why tempeh, which is fermented soybeans or fermented anything, can actually improve the bioavailability of those amino acids and actually makes it slightly more digestible for you. You can soak them for longer and actually pressure cook them for slightly longer so you actually mash them a little bit more. You can retain a little bit of texture, but it just removes some of those troublesome polysaccharides, so the sugars that can be troublesome for people with a certain microbiome profile that is unfavourable to consuming high fibre ingredients like beans and lentils. And then the other thing is spices. So having carminative spices, which is why in Indian cooking, we have fennel and cumin and fenugreek. These are actually helping us digest some of these high fibre items. So that can actually improve the digestibility of of these ingredients, which is why whenever I make like a tofu scramble, I'll add like spices to it and stuff. And it's just, yeah, it tastes delicious. It gives flavour to what is otherwise a bland product and it makes it slightly more digestible as well.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, it's a great word, carminatives. You can literally, I mean, basically what that means is anti-foods that are anti-gas, ingredients that are anti-gas producing. And fennel is one of them.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Love that. Um, awesome. Okay, let's go for another one of your favourites. Uh, eggs.
Max Lugavere: Love them.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. So arguments against eggs. I mean, there's a lot of fearmongering, I think, around eggs because of the cholesterol component. They are high in cholesterol. Um, but it's a it's a really nutrient dense food. So why don't you talk us through eggs and why you consume them?
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I think eggs are one of nature's multivitamins. An egg yolk contains a little bit of everything required to grow a brain. And it's no wonder that egg yolks are rich in cholesterol. The brain is rich in cholesterol. The brain, despite making up only 2 to 3% of your body's mass, contains 25% of total body cholesterol. So that's not to say that you need to consume cholesterol for brain health. You absolutely don't. But it's no wonder that egg yolks are rich in cholesterol because an egg yolk is literally designed by nature to grow a brain. And so it therefore contains a little bit of everything almost essential for brain health. And so I'm a huge fan of eggs. They're the number two most abundant source of choline in the diet. The first would be beef liver, which very few people are amenable to. Myself included. I'm not a huge beef liver consumer.
Dr Rupy: I actually quite like liver.
Max Lugavere: You do?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's weird. Like I like liver and onions and stuff. I don't know whether it is about my palate, but I do like that sort of like gamy, rich flavour.
Max Lugavere: Oh, the Nando's liver. I'm just now remembering how good liver at Nando's, right? Nando's like, yeah. Oh my god. My favourite.
Dr Rupy: A bit of context. Max is a massive fan of Nando's in the UK. We don't you don't have Nando's here, do you?
Max Lugavere: No, there's a few, I think there's one in Chicago. I think there might be one. There's like, there's like a handful in the United States, but they're not
Dr Rupy: You should start a franchise here in LA, man. I know. You'd be the number one customer.
Max Lugavere: So good. But they have Nando's has this liver dish, if I recall correctly. And I remember I was with you and I think I ordered like two servings of it or and I ate the whole thing.
Dr Rupy: You loved it.
Max Lugavere: So good. But yeah, so beef liver is the number one source of dietary choline. Egg yolks are number two. And 90% of adults in the United States don't consume the adequate intake for choline, which is really important for brain health. It's important for pregnant women. It's important for all everybody. Um, women who are when pregnant consume the highest amounts of choline in a specific trimester, I forget which, but um, seem to have offspring that are cognitively sharper. Um, so it's a it's a really important micronutrient and and yeah, and eggs are are the easiest to consume, easiest to access source of them. The dietary cholesterol, you know, issue, I think for many years, it was thought that based on animal studies that dietary cholesterol increased blood, you know, serum cholesterol. And we now know that that's not really true in humans. There is a small percentage of people who are hyper responders, hyper absorbers of dietary cholesterol, but that makes up the minority. Um, there is an effect where for people who consume who are on plant-based diets who consume no cholesterol and then start from one day to the next consuming dietary cholesterol, there will be an increase in cholesterol because, you know, it takes there's a bit of a lag time before your liver understands that we've got some cholesterol incoming, but your liver produces most of the cholesterol in your in your blood. Again, for most people, the dietary cholesterol is not a concern. So yeah, so I'm I'm a big fan of of eating eggs. There was even a study, it was an observational study a couple months ago, if not a year ago, that found that egg consumers had a 50% almost risk reduction for Alzheimer's disease. Um, I don't know how much stock I would put in that study. It was an observational study, but I think it's worth mentioning that there doesn't seem to be the signal that eggs increase risk of Alzheimer's. In fact, the signal seems to be the inverse that eggs seem to reduce to lower risk. There was another study that found that in men, the highest consumers of dietary choline over an almost 30-year period had a 30% risk reduction for Alzheimer's disease, regardless of whether or not they carried the APOE4 allele. So, yeah, I'm I'm quite bullish on eggs. I think they're great.
Dr Rupy: I've got my cheat sheet here for the pros around eggs, right? So you've you've basically mentioned all of them. So high quality protein, about six grams per cooked egg, all nine essential amino acids. Um, vitamins, so B12, um, even a little bit of vitamin D as well. Um, you've got minerals, you've got choline that you've you've talked about, important for brain development. And actually when you look at some of the meta-analyses of moderate egg consumption, which is defined as around one egg a day, so seven a week, um, there doesn't appear to be a consistent association with higher likelihood of stroke and cardiovascular disease. So that's looking across the board at multiple different studies. Um, and then even weight management as well. I think I talked about this on on your podcast. When people consume eggs, particularly at breakfast time, there does appear to be an association with improvements in satiety and overall weight management. So you're less likely to overconsume calories in a 24-hour period. So you're less likely to put on weight and maintain good metabolic health. And then eye health as well. So it's also a component of lutein and zeaxanthin, um, which can be associated with reduced risk of age-related macular degeneration, which is a really big issue for older adults.
Max Lugavere: Also lutein and zeaxanthin, really important for brain health. I broke the news on this in Genius Foods, my first book, but we are now starting to see that it's not just the eyes that benefit from higher levels of lutein and zeaxanthin consumption, that there it these compounds are directly associated with better cognitive health. And even randomised control trials show that supplemental lutein and zeaxanthin can also lead to a cognitive boost. And so, yeah, I'm a huge fan of lutein, zeaxanthin and egg yolks are a great source. I'll add that eggs are whole eggs tend to contain, you know, a lot of fat. So, you know, for people looking to optimise protein intake, I think whole eggs are are incredible. But something that I do personally is I'll eat two to three whole eggs and then I'll mix in a few egg whites just to jack the protein levels even higher. In the United States, at least, it's very easy to buy cartons of pre-separated egg whites. So I'll eat two to three whole eggs and I'll put in like two to three egg whites as well.
Dr Rupy: That's actually a really good strategy because, you know, aside from the environmental concerns, because I think we should be able to have a nutritional conversation without conflating everything with the environment. Obviously, that is very important and trying to consume the highest quality eggs that you can buy that are welfare and you know, there's a real big issue with caged eggs and all the rest of it, caged hens rather. That being said, people can go almost to the extreme and just have like as many eggs as they want every single day, you know, six to eight eggs every single day. Do you think there's an issue with that given what you've said, you know, about eggs being a multivitamin, people might go overboard and be like, oh, I can have as many as I want. Like, it doesn't matter about the cholesterol, it doesn't matter about overconsuming calories, it doesn't matter about any of these other elements that people might be scared of.
Max Lugavere: You know, I think it's highly individual. I don't think that there's any reason to fear eggs. Um, Nick Norwitz who you referenced earlier, I think he even did a study where he ate something like, you know, he was eating like 80 eggs a week or some crazy thing like that. He did, I mean, he's known for doing these like extreme N of one experiments. So they're these are anecdotes. Like you can't read too much into them, but like he is an MD PhD and he did do this experiment where he just ate an insane amount of eggs. And if I recall correctly, his cholesterol didn't budge or maybe it even went down. So it's very individual. And again, there are there are some hyper absorbers. So you just need to be, there are tests that you can do for this. You know better than I, but where they'll use various phytosterols and they'll look at levels in the blood because they compete for the same absorption receptors in the gut. So you can always like measure for this. But in general, I would say for most people, eggs are, you know, not to be feared and in fact prioritised.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I remember because Nick was on my podcast, we had a conversation about that. His general cholesterol level was really high though. It was really high. Like he's one of these lean mass hyper responders.
Max Lugavere: Maybe not the best example.
Dr Rupy: So probably not the best cholesterol ratio to aim for, but to your point about hyper responders, I think there are certain genetic tests that you can do. They look at snips looking at, I'm going to butcher the name, it's the Niemann-Pick C1-like 1 transporter, which is responsible for cholesterol balance in the blood. There's also APOE4 actually that you were just mentioning. There does appear to be some issue with those genetic snips and with people who consume more than the moderate intake as well. So for folks who are eating like six eggs a day, I would actually have some reservations around that because you're literally looking at, I mean, if you look at a typical egg, it's about 180 milligrams of cholesterol. So you're you're getting up to 1000 milligrams of cholesterol. And whilst most cholesterol is just simply excreted throughout the body, there is a degree of cholesterol that you do absorb. And when you hit those extreme levels, I think that's where you're going to have fall into the potential pitfall of actually bumping up your serum cholesterol level. And I like to play the numbers, particularly as a as a medic, that I would I would be cautious about that. So I think eggs are great as an addition to the diet, but I wouldn't go to the extremes of having as many eggs as you want every single day.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I would agree with that. That's totally reasonable. Yeah, I don't I eat two to three a day, two to three whole eggs. Um, and some days I'll skip, but like, yeah, I think at that level, you're likely to be fine for most people again.
Dr Rupy: For most people, yeah. And I think it's always good to titrate your response to um, any thing in your diet that you're consuming to that degree with bloods. And I'm a big fan of bloods these days. I don't think I was actually because within my medical career working in the National Health Service, we like to be quite reserved with any investigations. And there's sort of the mantra, you know, if it doesn't change management, don't don't test. Now I'm sort of altering my opinion on that and I'm coming around to this idea of actually doing slightly more investigation that might actually reveal some issues and lead to some sort of over investigation or sort of like, you know, over sort of treating rather than like just letting things fester until you're 50s and 60s and then you react to something that actually should have been intervened a couple of decades earlier. So
Max Lugavere: Yeah. Also in nutrition, one thing that's, and this is why nutrition science is so hard to do, but it's like if you remove those eggs from your diet, then the question becomes, well, what are you replacing them with? Are you removing eggs because you're afraid of the cholesterol only to then replace those that that nutrient rich, albeit high cholesterol breakfast with, you know, commercial cereal loaded with sugar and refined grains and with a heart healthy sign on it.
Dr Rupy: With a heart healthy sign on it. Yeah. So you always just have to be, you know, mindful of what you're replacing these foods with if you choose to replace them.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'll link to a couple of meta-analyses as well of positions on both sides actually about higher egg consumption with higher CVD risk and then uh, moderate egg consumption with no association between risk as well. But, you know, the thing that I always, like I was alluding to on your podcast, as a medical doctor, I've gone with the guidelines and I've gone against the guidelines, all contextualised by the person sitting in front of me, who I'm treating, who I'm giving advice to. And that's why I think it's just so important to, you know, be informed by some of these big trials and some of even the observational studies, but also personalise it to your own lifestyle. Because like you were saying, if people become fearful of eggs and they actually start consuming refined sugars, refined starches, then you're actually going to be net negative when it comes to your overall health. So, yeah.
Max Lugavere: Mhm.
Dr Rupy: Let's talk about beef tallow. Okay. We're going to go back from seed oils to to to uh, animal fats. Um, beef tallow is very popular here. I mean, people are putting on their skin, they're putting on their hair. Like, have you got beef tallow in your hair?
Max Lugavere: I do not have beef tallow in my hair. It might look like it. It might look like it. Um, no, that's my own tallow. It's called not shampooing your hair every day. Which is quite healthy.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I don't shampoo my hair every day.
Max Lugavere: You want the natural oils. The idea that men need to shampoo their hair every day is a psyop. It's not something that you that you need to do. When I discovered that hair, so off topic, but uh, you didn't that you didn't need to do it. It was actually counterproductive to healthy hair to shampoo your hair every day. It was like revelatory to me.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I actually use a bit of, this is really off topic. Let's talk about hair. Uh, I use a tiny bit of coconut oil in my hair.
Max Lugavere: Oh, cool.
Dr Rupy: And just like a tiny bit and then that's that's it. It just kind of a little bit of like oil to just get things going after I wash it, but otherwise I don't use anything else and just let the natural oil seep in and yeah.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I like it. It looks great. Great hair. Great head of hair.
Dr Rupy: Thanks, man. Thanks.
Max Lugavere: It's good we meet your hair up here. Yeah. Tallow. So I'm I'm not a big like tallow fanboy. I don't I'm not like anti, I'm not for. I think the the jury is still out because it's so um, kind of there's so much hype and it's it's uh, it's a fat that maybe historically we used a lot more frequently. It's certainly not um, one that I think the nutrition research apparatus has really looked too deeply into in terms of its its effect on health. My fear is that because it may in some or maybe even most, uh, raise LDL compared to seed oils that, you know, it might automatically get the sort of red flag from the nutrition community, the nutrition evidence-based community. But I I think that it's a it's a better alternative and I know this is a controversial statement, but I would rather eat foods that are fried in tallow um, as compared to these uh, seed oils. Does that mean that I'm chasing tallow? No, but I do think it's interesting and you brought this up on my podcast. I'm not that familiar with the fatty acid, the the various proportions of the differing fatty acids in tallow, but if if a significant proportion of it is stearic acid, I know that a I know that about half of the fat of beef is actually monounsaturated fat. And then I know that there is a proportion of stearic acid, which is neutral from a cardiovascular standpoint, if not beneficial. Um, so yeah, so I think the the jury is still out and um, I'm not going to say it's a health food. I'm not going to say that it's that it's bad for you. Uh, but yeah, I think more more research is warranted.
Dr Rupy: I'm going to refer back to my cheat sheet here that I should have shared with you before this actually because I think it's really interesting for both of us because we've just talked about the fatty acid breakdown of beef tallow um, by total fat. And um, so the reason why I think it gets automatically a red flag is because of the fact that it is 50 to 55% saturated fat. We'll go into exactly how much of the different types of saturated fats there are. But interestingly, the other 40, 45% is monounsaturated fatty acid. A dominant proportion of which is oleic acid. People might recognise that word from olive oil. So oleic acid is actually a monounsaturated fatty acid that we find typically in good quality extra virgin olive oil and other sort of oils as well that you can find that has some cardiovascular protective properties. Now, does that completely exonerate uh, beef tallow from having a cardiovascular risky profile? No, but it is very interesting that it is quite a big proportion is that. And just going back to the saturated fats, and the reason why we're going through these different types of saturated fats is because they have differing impacts on us and there are different chain lengths for these different saturated fats. So 50% of the saturated fat in beef tallow is stearic acid. Stearic acid is a saturated fat that has been cardio neutral or maybe even cardio protective. It's the dominant saturated fat that you find in dark chocolate, which we know is beneficial, maybe because of the flavonols and the other polyphenols that you find in chocolate or the theobromine, but, you know, still interesting to state that. And then palmitic acid is the other big proportion, the other 50% of the saturated fat that you find in in beef tallow. That we do know is potentially harmful, probably harmful, does raise LDLC. So in terms of like whether I would say you need to stay clear from this or whether you can safely use it, I would say you probably can safely use it. Everything comes down to dose. So how much of this tallow are you throwing into your meals? How much is it actually going to be left on your plate? How much of that saturated fat are you going to ultimately be consuming? I think it really comes down to dose. So I would use beef tallow or I would use ghee or I would use extra virgin olive oil, but in the right amounts because I think the the sort of caloric density is probably the biggest issue for most people when it comes to oils and fats in general.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I would agree with that that uh, the dose makes the poison with with most anything. And um, and and at the end of the day, it is an isolated fat extract, which is going to be highly calorie dense and there's no, there's no necessity for, you know, consuming any added fat actually. Like I I, you know, this is a an area where I've evolved. I, you know, I think extra virgin olive oil is amazing and I use it regularly, but I'm I'm very diligent with how I use it because ultimately, a tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil has as many calories as a huge whole honey crisp apple. So it's not going to be as satiating, it's not going to be, you know, it's just very calorie dense. So and that goes for any added fat. So you want to be just diligent with your with how you use it.
Dr Rupy: You know, it's really interesting. I want to do an N of one experiment where I consume 1000 extra calories every single day from extra virgin olive oil just to see whether my weight actually shifts. Like I'm really consistent in my weight in that I'm basically 75 kilos. I barely go above or below that. No matter like how different my diet is. Like I'm in LA right now. I just think I just sort of adjust because I have a high protein, high fibre breakfast as you know. Um, I'd love to see what effect having 1000 calories from extra virgin olive oil actually has on my weight because the science makes sense. The science of energy density would would state that I'm going to put on X amount of kilos or X amount of pounds per week, per month, the longer I maintain that calorie surplus. But my mind, I just can't get my head around how this is going to have this much of an impact given my weight is so stable.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. There was there was a, I mean, do you know, do you follow Menno Henselmans on social media at all? He's a
Dr Rupy: Oh, no, I think I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this uh, Nordic guy? Swedish?
Max Lugavere: Yes, yes, yeah. Um, he's a professional bodybuilder, fitness coach and um, nutrition, I I think he's in the process of getting his nutrition PhD. I could be wrong there or exercise science, something like that. But he shares a lot of uh, really interesting research. And um, and he did share a study recently that found that, I mean, it was a it was a small study and it's like, you know, these are not studies to be overinterpreted, but it was a study that looked at extra virgin olive oil in like an overfeeding setting. And it was like the the results were very counterintuitive. Like they they fed like lots of extra virgin olive oil to these subjects, these poor subjects. And they didn't they didn't gain the weight that you would expect them to gain based on the calories that they were consuming from oil. Similar to the discussion that we had on my podcast about protein. It's like overfeeding lean protein doesn't seem to promote the kind of weight gain that you would expect to see from feeding an, you know, isocaloric dose of, for example, starch or sugar or whatever or fat.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I think it's something to do with the absorptive absorption of these ingredients. So if you're eating like a a really nutrient dense protein source, how much of those calories is going to be used to burn the and metabolise and assimilate those proteins within that ingredient versus how much of the total ingredient you are actually absorbing? How much of it is going to just pass right through you? There's a really interesting study actually that I um, I discussed with Dr. Sarah Berry, who you've had on your podcast as well, where they actually did a a study where they demonstrated that depending on the food matrix of a nut, even when the calories were kept the same, the difference in calories absorbed varied from person to person massively and according to how different the food was, whether it was like a pureed almonds, ground almonds or whole almonds. Because the fibre and all the other structures that go into how you absorb the energy is all being disrupted and changed. So it's really interesting. I don't think it can be down to like a mathematical equation, which is commonly what you see touted online.
Max Lugavere: No, 100%. Yeah, it's like how fat, how rapidly you consume the whole nut, like how many the the size of the particles that that you swallow determines how much energy you're able to extract from them and its transit through the digestive tract. It's very interesting science. And that's why, you know, people will argue and there is some truth to the argument that calorie counting is kind of reductionist. Ultimately, I think it can be helpful and it, you know, and it does work for many, many people. But, uh, but yeah, you know, I think all these kinds of studies are just really interesting and increasing our knowledge around how food impacts impacts us from myriad vantage points.
Dr Rupy: There is a commonality that I see with people who are really big fans of calorie counting. They tend to be super jacked and super ripped. And the reason why is because they put this science down to a T on their own diet and they see the benefits. They work with clients, they do the same thing and they see this happening like time and time again. When you fix exactly what they're consuming, exactly the ingredients that they want to consume with the calories, this is what the outcome looks like. And I don't deny that, but I think within this, there's so much nuance and we're dealing with biology here, not machines. And we're all going to react very, very differently.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. I've done it. I've calorie counted because
Dr Rupy: Yeah, you got really ripped. I remember.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the the the reality is, like you shouldn't need to calorie count to to maintain a healthy weight. But we're not talking about when when looking at bodybuilders, we're not necessarily talking about a healthy weight. Bodybuilding, we need to parse that from health because they're two different goals. I mean, it might feel great and look great. It doesn't even necessarily feel great to be ripped, but um, but yeah, like you you can't guess your way to, like you can you can not calorie count and be 10 to 12% body fat as a as a male. But you can't really, it's it's counterproductive to try to guess your way to nine, eight, seven, six percent body fat like these bodybuilders are doing. They need to be really diligent to make sure that the calorie deficits that they're um, that they're entering into are not too extreme because they don't want to risk muscle loss. They want to make sure, like you have to be dialed into a certain point when you're get when you get that lean because you want to make sure that you're eating enough fat for hormone synthesis, that you're, you know, eating enough protein to maintain your muscles. Um, so when I did it, it was I had, you know, without calorie counting, dieted down to about a 10%, 11, 10% body fat. But I wanted to go, I wanted to get into the single digits. Oh, wow. And so, and I did briefly. I'm not like a competitive bodybuilder, but um, but it was very helpful for me to begin to calorie count at that level. You just can't guess yourself into single digit body fat and do it in the most efficient, effective way to also preserve your lean mass.
Dr Rupy: How are you measuring your fat percentage? Was it with calipers or were you doing DEXA or
Max Lugavere: Not DEXA. Um, I've never done DEXA because I've never I've just never had the opportunity to, but also there's like a dose of radiation that, you know, I just didn't want. So I was using the bioelectrical impedance, like those things. And um, and I don't know, there's debate about their accuracy, but just as a as a reference point, I think those can be helpful. And so yeah, I was just tracking myself. I went from like 14 all the way down to like eight, I think, 8%. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Wow, that's lean.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I was pretty, it was the leanest I've ever been. Um, and uh, and I could have kept going actually, but I just was like, it wasn't really for any point other than just to see what it's like to be that ripped and to see what it takes. And yeah, and I found calorie at a certain point, calorie counting became, I think, really crucial. But, but not you don't, you know, again, that's not for health. Like you don't need to be single digit body fat to be in optimal health. For a male, optimal body fat percentages range from, I think it's 10 to 20%. I think 20, maybe 15 to 25% for women, although that might be, it actually might be a little bit higher than that. I don't recall specifically for women. Women tend to carry more body fat. Um, but yeah, but it was a definitely an interesting, interesting journey. But I saw the merit of it for that, for that goal, you know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I don't know if you had your blood work done for hormones and stuff. Like did you check your
Max Lugavere: Yeah, it was very interesting. Really? My testosterone basically tanked.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow.
Max Lugavere: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: I mean, to be expected at that level, right?
Max Lugavere: I was eating a lot less fat because fat is the most calorie dense. So you want to reduce your fat intake. Um, and so yeah, my testosterone is actually typically very high. It's like surprisingly high. Um, when I tell most people because I'm 43, um, just about a year or two ago, it was like in the 1100s.
Dr Rupy: Okay, wow.
Max Lugavere: And yeah, I don't know if that converts. I don't know what
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's really super high, dude.
Max Lugavere: Yeah. And now it's I think like 900, 8 to 900. Okay. Um, but when I was cutting, it got down to like, I don't know, it was like 600, 5, 600, which is low for me.
Dr Rupy: Which is low for you, but it's still relatively okay actually.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, it's okay. Yeah. But I saw it my mine has always been consistently high.
Dr Rupy: Huh, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's what happened. I mean, did you feel differently as well? Like did you feel sluggish or low like mood?
Max Lugavere: I didn't I didn't feel my best. Your body, it's it's called metabolic adaptation or I think that's the term. Um, but yeah, you basically your body thinks that it's starving to death. And so there are all these adaptations that kick in like a reduction in NEAT, which is the sort of subconscious, maybe it's fidgeting. You just have less energy to to do stuff. Your body goes into like this like conservation mode.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Max Lugavere: So it's it was not the most comfortable um, place to be, but uh, but it wasn't that bad either and you look great. So
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Trade-offs there. Yeah.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, trade-offs. Yeah. I was like the most vascular I've ever been. I actually looked kind of like a bodybuilder for the first time in my life. Yeah. And um, and it was awesome. I mean, it was it was a great, fantastic experiment. I was thinking about doing it again because I've put on more muscle in the time since then. But uh, but yeah, I think that's around the time that when we first met, I think that was in the middle of that or I was maybe just coming out of it. But that was around the time that I was like very lean.
Dr Rupy: It's really interesting how your body adapts to this. Like you just mentioned, NEAT, you know, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis. So this is uh, it represents something massive, like 10 to 15% of your total caloric burn every single day. And just to clarify what that is for the audience, this is the amount of calories that you burn from doing a lot of what I do. I'm very like expressive with my hands. I'm always fidgeting. My wife always has complaints about it. But I'm always like adjusting myself in my seat. And so what you would have noticed is your natural fidgeting would have gone down because your body is like, hey, we're not getting any fuel in here. So we're going to shut down anything that is not, you know, necessary for survival, which means you're going to sit down in that chair, you're not going to get up, we're not going to go for a walk. Everything is geared towards you just staying in bed. And that's it. And it goes from everything from your mood to the way your body reacts and all that kind of stuff, which is why I think when when people cut calories, particularly when they go beyond like that 10%, which is typically what people tend to to go for, they feel horrible. You know, even in the short term, they feel terrible. It's because your body is very, very geared towards maintaining calories and maintaining your sense of homeostasis, whatever that is for you in that moment. And so you will feel it and it's you got to go beyond that if you're, you know, particularly if you're a bodybuilder or you're trying to go for those single digit fat numbers.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, I mean, there are ways to compensate. You can jack up your carbs a little bit, but yeah, you feel slower. You definitely feel slower. Um, but, you know, there are these compensatory feelings because like you're the leanest you've ever been. You just feel lighter also. Um, and then you can work in these psychological tools like refeeds, um, which are often utilised in in the bodybuilding space, which which primarily are just like psychological boosts so that you can keep dieting. But yeah, I mean, there's there's merit to to the to the sport, if you want to call it that. I guess it is a sport. And uh, and I have a lot of respect for bodybuilders. I, you know, I I've always actually been into bodybuilding. I've never considered or I've never I approach my exercise as a as a bodybuilder, but I've never aspired to actually compete or anything like that. I just don't have the the genes for it. Um, but yeah, but I think there's a lot to be learned from there. Actually, like the the science, I've had Bill Campbell on my podcast who's an exercise scientist, PhD. And it's like, it is interesting when you hear the, you know, the exercise science community, you know, they they're often like they they respond often to the what is sometimes called the quote unquote bro science. You know, like bodybuilders will figure stuff out on their own in the trenches and then like science comes in to kind of validate those findings or those observations. And um, and it's it's interesting. There's a lot to be learned about our bodies, about physiology from that from that world.
Dr Rupy: 100%, man. I mean, like when I started even thinking about doing my latest book, Healthy High Protein, I lent into A, a lot of that bro science, and then B, a lot of the scientists sort of like dispelling some myths, but some of the stuff that actually came from people, you know, tinkering with protein supplements and BCAAs and like all the and, you know, obviously testosterone and other illegal hormones, drugs, actually, you know, it has paved the way for a lot of learning that can be applied to people as they age, the longevity community, postmenopausal issues. Like there's actually a lot that we can learn from from this community. And I I really respect, I think, a lot of the exercise physiologists because they understand the science like a lot better than I did, even when I was learning this stuff at med school, you know, and some from some endocrinologists that are like at the top of their game, like they understand the hormonal milieu just as well as some of these folks.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, it's awesome. I love it. That's why I'm so inspired by like what we do. I just think it's such a fascinating field to be in. And so fun too. It's like it's so applicable to like everyday life. You know, on the one hand, health is crucially important, like long-term health. But on the other hand, when it comes to optimising how you feel and perform and even look, which impacts your confidence and your mental health, um, that's where, you know, the the applied science of exercise physiology, nutrition, all play a really important role.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, let's talk, let's talk finally about a fun one. Raw milk. Oh, man. I feel I feel like these are all coming from America. Like, you know, I've been here for a couple of weeks now and I've just seen on the news like people talking about seed oils, people talking about raw milk, people talking about tallow. Like, let's talk about raw milk. What is the deal with raw milk?
Max Lugavere: Yeah. So, uh, wow, you really decided to step in it with this with this episode of the of your show. Um, yeah, I'm I would probably position myself in the middle again, like the, you know, with the tallow controversy with raw milk, there are a lot of people who, you know, will claim that raw milk that so many people have difficulty digesting dairy because it's been pasteurised, that a lot of the enzymes that are required for the digestion of milk are degraded in the pasteurisation process, which heats dairy up to a certain temperature in order to kill potentially pathogenic bacteria. Um, I think if you, uh, know the farm where you're getting your dairy from and it's and it's raw and that's what you choose to drink, then all good. I'm not like anti-raw dairy. Um, obviously there is some risk there, but there's risk with consuming any raw food. Like, that's where I think this the the polarity in this debate is actually quite silly. It's like you wouldn't eat raw beef that you just buy from the supermarket. Like who would do that? On the other hand, plenty of people enjoy raw beef. There's carne cruda, there's carpaccio, there's all kinds of delicacies that that involve raw beef. Yeah, or raw fish. Like I wouldn't go to the, you know, the fish section of my supermarket and buy a piece of raw salmon fillet and and start eating it as if it were sushi from Nobu. Like you have to know where your food is coming from, you know? And so similarly with raw milk, I think like there just needs to be caution around it. And if you live near a farm or if you have access to one of these producers here in California, there's a great producer, no affiliation called, I think it's raw farms, I think it's I think they're called, very easy to access. Um, I think it's great. On the other hand, I also think that pasteurised dairy is great. It's a fantastic source of micronutrients like calcium, magnesium, probiotics, and of course protein. So there's this polarity where some in the raw milk community will say that pasteurised dairy is basically useless or it's poison and that's just nonsense. Um, but on the other hand, I think if you have access to a raw dairy farm, um, there's no there's no significant risk of harm if you know where it's coming from. Other, you know, beyond the harm that would that would be imparted from consuming anything raw. Yeah. Um, that you're not necessarily growing yourself or or harvesting or whatever yourself. So, um, so yeah, so I'm I consume, I would say for me personally, most of the dairy that I consume is pasteurised. Um, and uh, and I'm fine with it. You know, again, fantastic, easily accessible source of protein. I'm not going to just go to any supermarket and buy, you know, raw dairy. I want to I would want to know where it's coming from. And um, and yeah.
Dr Rupy: This is why I like talking to you, man, because, you know, the analogy you just used there, I think paints a very positive picture for people who might have been really like anti-raw dairy, but still go to like, you know, I mean, Nobu, I've actually never been to Nobu. I really want to go. I know I heard there's a really good Nobu in LA, right? The original one. Um, you know, would go and eat sushi, would go and have a beef tartar, would go and have, you know, something else that's raw and whatever. Um, but they're really anti-raw milk because of, you know, the potential for pathogens and salmonella and, you know, these are valid concerns. And actually, there is evidence that people who consume poorly handled raw dairy are at greater risk of some of these quite serious gastrointestinal illnesses that you need to be aware of. But in the same way, you know, foodborne illnesses can come from things like alfalfa sprouts. You know, poorly handled with E. coli or where they don't have proper irrigation systems. So anything that you're consuming raw definitely has risks, including a salad. Am I pro-raw dairy? Do I think the benefits of raw dairy outweigh the potential risks? Probably not, which is why I would prefer to get my milk pasteurised. I also don't have access to a farm that is properly producing raw dairy where I can potentially have or experience some of those benefits that may be, you know, more enzymes, more probiotics, maybe a favourable picture for my microbiota. There are some studies that show that, you know, you have a more diverse microbiome when you consume raw dairy. Um, but having said that, you know, my my dad grew up on a farm in Punjab in India. Um, my mom also comes from a similar region. When we visit there, we have cows. We drink raw dairy. We culture the butter, we, you know, turn that into yogurt. You know, there's no pasteurisation process there. Um, it's, you know, just straight from the cow. Like I know that we've cleaned the cow, we've cleaned the other, all the rest of it. So we've done everything we can to minimise any infection risk. Um, and that's very small scale. But I don't have access to that in the UK. Would I have much of a problem? Probably not, actually, having said that.
Max Lugavere: No, 100%. I think it's uh, I just the polarity. It's like the going back to the seed oil conversation. It's like people are either like fully for or against it and it's like, no, nuance, context. Like if you have access to a farm where you know where the dairy is coming from, then I think all good, have at it. But on the other hand, we shouldn't demonise, you know, one of the many benefits of industrial food production. There's a lot of risks and harms that come with industrial food production as well. But one of the benefits is that dairy is, you know, pasteurised dairy is a pretty legitimate, it's it's it's a fail safe. I mean, it's like it's it's safe. It's it's typically very safe. And highly nutrient dense source of protein for most people. And, you know, observationally, when you look at people who consume dairy, like there seems to be an anti-inflammatory effect for people who are not sensitive to it. Um, yeah, there are all these benefits to regularly consuming dairy, provided you can properly that you can digest it, that you're not sensitive or have an allergy. So, um, so yeah, I'm for pasteurised dairy and if you know where your raw dairy is coming from and you choose to to indulge in raw dairy, then then go for it. I don't know of any, I haven't seen, I will say that I haven't seen anything too convincing to make me believe that raw dairy has any, you know, significant benefit over pasteurised dairy. But I know that its advocates do believe that there are benefits and, you know, and so I think that we should do research to to validate, you know, those claims.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Max Lugavere: Validate or um, or
Dr Rupy: Dismiss.
Max Lugavere: Dismiss. Yeah. I was going to say debunk, but debunk is aggressive. Yeah, dismiss.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's why I wanted to call this episode uh, discussing nutrition controversies rather than nutrition myths because I think the word myth and the word debunking suggests that there is a correct and incorrect opinion. We're actually, as we've demonstrated in today's conversation, there's a whole bunch of grey and there's a whole bunch of nuance. And I think it takes people who might even have differing opinions on the same subject to actually come together and discuss the pros and cons or the advantages and disadvantages or, you know, the science for and against, whilst also appreciating the absence of evidence and um, people's personal opinions and personal biases and personal preferences.
Max Lugavere: Amen. Yeah, super important. I think, you know, almost every area of life would be well suited to welcome back, you know, more nuance, more context, more understanding. Um, there are so many domains today that have just become so polarised. I think social media plays into that in no small part because of the way the algorithms work. But um, but all of these topics, I mean, these these are all these are all complicated topics that that that I think warrant and deserve uh, to be talked about with more nuance and understanding. So, yeah, I appreciate you having me on.
Dr Rupy: Epic, man. This is great. I really loved it. Um, look, you've been you've been uh, doing this thing for a while now. What's the, I want to end this conversation by asking you what's the biggest thing that you've changed your mind on?
Max Lugavere: Hmm. An area where I've changed my mind. Yeah, I've hit you with a big question right at the end, man. Sorry. After we've been chatting for like over an hour.
Dr Rupy: No, I like it. I like it. I like it. Let me think about that. Um, nothing, man. I've been right about everything. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Uh, a few things. I mean, I guess like, you know, I used to be um, I used to be very uh, I used to not eat like gluten containing foods. I thought, but I have since, you know, realised that like sourdough bread is an incredible food and I eat that regularly. Um, I I think years ago, I had kind of swallowed some of the wellness dogma that does tend to demonise foods like dairy. I think dairy is a wonderful food group. Uh, I don't really, I think there's value to low carb and um, and and even ketogenic diets in the right context for the right person. But I personally, like I don't really have, I pay zero attention to like the carbohydrate content of my diet. I try to prioritise high quality sources of carbohydrates, whole food sources of carbohydrates. But um, but in general, like I'm not like a, you know, carb, um, like I'm not really interested in like the the diet wars with regards to like low carb versus low fat. Like that's I don't really care about that anymore. And uh, and yeah, I think like for most people, the most people need to to focus primarily on the big rocks. Like these, all this all of this granular stuff is really interesting for people who, you know, who are nutrition nerds like you and I, but at the end of the day, most people, like when you zoom out and you look at actual population health, I think the the problems are very clear and the solutions are not as complex as they often are made out to appear on social media. We live in a time where 60% of the calories that your average adult consumes in the United States are from ultra-processed foods, essentially vending machine foods. In the UK, it's a little you're doing a little bit better, 50%. But I think that's that's the those are the big rocks. Like how can we get people to eat a little bit more whole foods, you know? Whole plants, steak, eggs, things like that as opposed to again, the vending machine foods. Um, how can we get them to be a little bit more active, to resistance train a little bit more frequently, to maybe, you know, drink less alcohol, um, to get better sleep, to to to reduce their stress. Um, so yeah, so I'm I'm these days I'm primarily trying to focus more on those like those big picture variables.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely, man. Amen. Um, appreciate you, man. Where can people find you? You got Genius Kitchen, which is a bestseller, and you got Genius Life and like, obviously you're in your studio right now, so you listen to your podcast.
Max Lugavere: Look at these two tall drinks of water right here. Look at that. We got our cookbooks. Yeah, you've got a little bit more height than I do. It's making me a little
Dr Rupy: I'm just compensating for my lack of height in real life.
Max Lugavere: Maybe that's I don't know, but it's making me from where I stand, sit, a little intimidated. Um, yeah, it's a you've got a beautiful book out. And yeah, so I've got I've got three books out, the Genius trilogy. My first book, Genius Foods is a is a nutrition deep dive into how to care for your brain as you age and how to boost mental health using uh, tools given to us by this burgeoning field known as nutritional psychiatry. Super exciting stuff. And then if you're into cooking, which I'm assuming a lot of your listeners are, I put out my own cookbook uh, about two years ago, two, three years ago called Genius Kitchen. And um, and it's recipes all catered to optimising brain health in particular. And, you know, body health, metabolic health, all that stuff. But I'm really interested, I would say primarily in uh, the prevention of neurodegenerative diseases because that's what my mom had. And so uh, so yeah, I've got my books out and then my podcast is called The Genius Life and it's available on all podcast platforms and YouTube.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And I want to give a little plug for your um, your film as well. Little empty boxes. Um, should be on a streaming platform. I really want that to happen, but, you know, you can go check it out at little empty boxes.com, I think it is.
Max Lugavere: Yeah, that should work or uh, or just Google it.
Dr Rupy: You can just Google it.
Max Lugavere: Little empty boxes. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's a documentary. It's about my mom. It's about dementia prevention. It's uh, for anybody who's ever had who's ever had a loved one with dementia, it's a film that'll make you feel a little bit less alone and uh, make you realise that a lot of people are going through this. So
Dr Rupy: Yeah, man. Amen. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you.
Max Lugavere: Thank you. Thanks, dude. That was fun.
