Malika Basu: Hello.
Dr Rupy: I'm so excited that you're here. Why don't we reintroduce you, because you've been in my food life for years now, like right from when I started doing this whole Doctor's Kitchen thing. And I remember reading your columns when I was growing up and stuff. And then to get the opportunity to have a discussion with you, I think on Instagram was the first time virtually, and then in person, and then just to see how our lives have been woven in this weird food world that we're in now. Why don't you tell folks listening and watching this at home, how do you describe what you do? Because I feel you're not just a food writer, you're not just a food commentator, you're just so much more than that.
Malika Basu: Oh, that's really sweet. I'm going to start by saying something that's really going to age you and me. I've known you for over a decade.
Dr Rupy: Oh my god.
Malika Basu: How old does that make you? Like really old. And yes, our lives did first cross paths when I was writing about Indian food.
Dr Rupy: Yes.
Malika Basu: And I remember you very kindly gave me a quote for my second Indian cookbook, which was lovely. And I loved your recipes because I could feed my children all sorts of errant vegetables because they were really well hidden, actually. Um, so it's very kind of you to say that about the work I do. I am a food writer. I do a bit of commenting and presenting. Started off, so my sort of entry point into food was through the conduit or the path of the cuisine of India. At some point I wanted to be the new Madhur Jaffrey. It's gone well, not. And, and then I set up a spice business. I got really into spices and flavour. And what I do now is I do writing which covers food culture, obviously spices and flavour, presenting very much in that space as well, and also board advisory in the food, drink and hospitality sectors. And I know a lot of really interesting people and I bring what I know from a lot of different areas to bear in my day-to-day life. I think they call it skill stacking, by the way.
Dr Rupy: Skill stacking. Yeah, yeah, it's a good thing.
Malika Basu: It's good, isn't it? It's good because it gives my eclectic career a bit of shape, I find.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, you, I always find you like either on a stage, in front of a mic, by a fireside, like you've, it feels like you've weaved your way into so many different sort of pockets of the food world.
Malika Basu: And you know what, I love it. Being on stage in front of an audience of 200 people is absolutely my comfort zone. I get super nervous before I go on.
Dr Rupy: Really? Oh my goodness.
Malika Basu: Very much so. So Ainsley Harriott said to me, he said, what did he say? He said, anxiety is good, but fear is not. So nerves are good, but fear is not. And I get really nervous, but it's performance anxiety. It's very good for you. It helps you actually spring to life. But then when I'm on stage, I just really enjoy it. And then what I talk about, it does cover all of those things.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, your personality really comes out and I've said to you that you need your own sort of like podcast where you can really go into depth and show your, your no boundaries personality. You know, just really sort of let go because I feel like sometimes when you're representing brands, it can be quite constraining, you know, with good reason. But for you, I see so much personality in you when we're just like having a drink or cooking or just doing, hanging out in the studio here. And I, I think people would love to hear more of that.
Malika Basu: Do you? I'm usually just shouting at you, aren't I? That's the honest. When you see me in the room, I'm just like shouting across the room at you.
Dr Rupy: I remember I told you like, you know, Rashad was pregnant, my wife, and you know, everyone was giving me advice, like you're going to do this. And Malika was just like, don't listen to any of that crap. You'll be fine. Okay. Don't worry about it. Don't like, you know, you just give no nonsense advice.
Malika Basu: Completely. Big fan of that. But you know, I am basically your stereotypical Indian aunty. Except I don't give any advice. Or sometimes I do give advice when it's completely unsolicited and the people don't know what's hit them. And I'm just sat there just bombarding them with nonsense advice that they didn't even ask for. I love it. I love it.
Dr Rupy: Let's move away from your children, your family life, because I'm sure.
Malika Basu: We can do that later. Give me a glass of wine.
Dr Rupy: I know, I know. We're going to get to that for sure. Let's talk about how you've sort of moved from, not moved from completely, but you've gone from cooking and Indian cooking being your sort of like safety ground to commenting and particularly, you know, about something that is quite important within the food industry, cultural appropriation. Why don't we first define exactly what we mean by that? And I love sort of the rules that you explained to me that are on, I think the food guild of food writers website now.
Malika Basu: That's right. Yes.
Dr Rupy: Um, about like how you can tell the differences, because I think as someone who, to use Ravinder Bhogal's term, no boundaries cooking, I'm a really big fan of that. I really think that there's so much to learn from other people's cuisines. And particularly as like an NHS GP who's had to, you know, speak to people from different backgrounds, especially in, you know, such a multi-cultural melting pot of London, reflecting people's cuisines with a healthy twist is something that I kind of learned to do just through my medical career. But I'd love to sort of like get your, your sort of like the safety net around how we do that in a way that isn't offensive or trampling across sort of the boundaries that we should be respectful of.
Malika Basu: Sure. So first thing to say on that is that borderless cooking is actually great. It's great for food waste. Every home cook will recognise half jars, half bags, you know, half bottles of this, that and the other. And also, I've written Indian cookbooks, I've run my own spice company, and the last thing I'd want is for people not to cook the food of my culture, right? So first things first. And that links very nicely onto my next point, which is that the term cultural appropriation is very misunderstood. I think people confuse it to be a debate about the authenticity of recipes. And it's like, you know, food writers protecting what is theirs. And so this is my food, you can't cook it. And, and that's wrong. It's actually not a row about authenticity. And I'm amazed at how many people get this wrong and how many people misunderstand what it's about. The key to understanding cultural appropriation is actually the word appropriation. So the word appropriation is a very loaded word. It's also very negative word. It implies stealing, snatching, taking by force. And so it usually involves a dominant culture that was involved in some form of colonialization. And then a culture that was enslaved, subjugated, economically controlled. And it's inherently negative because cultural appropriation is about taking something that is dear to a culture and then mistreating it. Basically treating it badly, treating it in a way that is not respectful, without due consideration to what is being used, how it's used, how people from that culture think about it. And I use the golden handbag example. So I run these sessions, which I can tell you about in a minute. But I use this golden handbag. It's like if you take something precious from someone and then you trample all over it, you customize it, and you stab, you kick it around, and then you put it up there and said, oh, here's a golden handbag I got from such and such person. What you've done is you've mistreated something. You haven't been respectful. And actually it doesn't look very much like the original golden handbag either, does it? So you've kind of failed on a lot of different fronts.
Dr Rupy: Can I just say, I'm imagining like a Hermes Birkin bag that I know my wife would really appreciate. And if someone took a Birkin bag from her and trampled over it, I completely get that. So yeah, just to.
Malika Basu: Do you? Now imagine if it was a customized Birkin bag that had been handed down generations in your family. Imagine someone then borrowing that and treating it badly. That's a horrible, it's just not a very nice feeling, is it? And of course, the food world, we're good people. You know, fundamentally, we're inspired by taste and flavour and coming together and feasting and eating and pleasure and joy. And so cultural appropriation just doesn't work on a lot of levels. It's very different also to cultural appreciation or inspiration. Inspiration strikes from anywhere. It can come literally from whatever. I mean, I'm from India originally, as are you. And, you know, India is literally, they're the masters of inspiration and appreciation when it comes to culture. We took from the Portuguese, we took from the Chinese, you know, we took from each other, so many influences from the British. But, you know, we just turned them into things that we liked. The challenge we've got now is that food is more than just what we put in our mouth. It's a cultural artifact. And so there are pressures on people who commercialize flavour to do it in a way that feels sensitive and respectful.
Dr Rupy: This is a very tough area, isn't it? Because now that you've put it in those words, and I'll be honest, I think in the spirit of vulnerability, I would have confused cultural appropriation for some of the things that I see online. And I think now with the way you've eloquently described it and that lens, I can sort of get to sort of feel the difference between the two, the cultural appreciation versus appropriation. But let's say I'm a commercial figure, I'm a well-known chef, and I want to commercialize a product, but the inspiration is from India. How do you do that in a sensitive way as someone who isn't originally from said background? Is there a way to do it? And if there is, how would one go about it?
Malika Basu: How long have we got, exactly? You want to read my book that I will write someday that I have no head space for at the moment. Um, that's a very good question. The way to get it right involves platforming and championing, due diligence, getting your research right. You know, I call it the yoga in Kerala effect.
Dr Rupy: The what, sorry?
Malika Basu: The yoga in Kerala effect.
Dr Rupy: I have no idea what that is.
Malika Basu: I'm going to explain it to you in a second. Um, the coloniality and the colonial era established certain food hierarchies, which means certain cuisines get are more elevated, they get more respect naturally than others. Um, and so people think it is okay. So while you have to train and really understand French cuisine, and it's very much held in, you know, this ought, it's got this big respect attached to it. But you can go for a yoga holiday to Kerala and you can suddenly become an expert in Kerala cuisine. You know, and if you think about the word Asian, for instance, which is used, you know, willy-nilly, if you ask me, the Asian salad dressing, the Asian noodles, you know, Asia is 48, 49 countries, right? To package that, all those cultures, all those tastes, the heritage, the, you know, the talent, the knowledge, the know-how, generational cuisines into a jar of of salad dressing. How do you do that? You know, and so you might do a no butter butter chicken and it's fine if you know what a butter chicken actually is and you're honest about your inspiration and the background. But can you imagine doing a coq au vin without wine? You know, so it's about giving all the cultures and communities a respect. And the way also to get it right is to really be led by the community. What would they find good or bad? What would they find respectful and disrespectful and go from there.
Dr Rupy: I I I totally get that. And I think now that you've just pointed that sort of picture of, you know, French cuisine, looking at French cuisine in particular, there are rules around that. You know, the way you do a beurre blanc, the way you do sauces, you know, the sort of basics of of haute French cuisine, chefs probably wouldn't stand for it if you had like, you know, variations on that. But I guess, um, my question would be, as you've been in the food industry for so long, are there examples of where people have done this really well? I know you've been involved in a number of different projects, so please feel free to use those examples. And obviously, you know, you're a consultant for diversity and inclusion for a number of corporates as well. So perhaps there are some examples where you're like, this is how they did it. This is what I would say is an A-star example.
Malika Basu: Absolutely. And there are lots of great examples. So what I did, just to dial that back for a second, is in the pandemic, I took all my frustrations that had been bubbling for years as a food writer. So this is now my 18th year in food writing. And I'd started with a blog on Indian food. Then I wrote the two cookbooks, of course. But, you know, there'd been this like, just my skin crawling for a long, long time. And that happens to a lot of food writers who write about their particular cuisine. And the first time I kicked up a fuss about cultural appropriation was actually in 2018 about a supermarket's Bengali turmeric curry kit. And I took it to Twitter, which was in its heyday back then. And I said, I'm Bengali, there was no such thing as a Bengali turmeric curry. And the Observer ran a feature about my fury. And so that, it went back that long, right? 2018. And then eventually in 2021, I packaged up everything that had been frustrating me, but also, you know, there were lots of great food writers and personalities who had been talking about this, who'd been angry about it, quite rightly. I spoke to a bunch of them and I created what I call the food and culture. So it was food, culture and mindset session. It's a very corporate trick because you know I've done the food writing beside a corporate career, right? That's why I do the board advisory and things. And so I created a session which was going to essentially teach people about the wrongs and rights of being culturally relevant and culturally sensitive. So in that session, I then talked about, look, what's happening now, what's wrong. Now I've lost my train of thought of why I went all the way back there. What was your question again?
Dr Rupy: The question was about an example of where this has been done well.
Malika Basu: So it has been done well. There are lots of food personalities and writers who are doing an incredible job. If you look at Thomasina Miers, for instance, with Mexican food, you know, she's enormously knowledgeable, sensible, her recipes are incredible. She's done some great things to just broaden the knowledge of Mexican cuisine in this country. She's a great personality, does great things for food sustainability as well, one of the founding members of the sustainable restaurant association. So she's a great example. Fuchsia Dunlop again is someone that I really like, what she's done with Chinese cuisine. Now, I'm not saying you have to become such a massive subject matter expert. You don't have to become like a huge, um, you know, sort of intellect on one particular cuisine. But where that's not possible, the key to getting culture right is to platform and champion and monetize people who you're learning from.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Malika Basu: You know, so who is your inspiration? Where have you learned this from? You've never been to Mexico. So who's taught you this dish? Right? And so, you know, and the other point is not to reinforce negative stereotypes. It's that whole sombrero and tequila thing that goes on. And the Indian stories, the same stories, the food industry loves a trope. You know this, yes. The granny stories, the aunty stories. I didn't have, my mom's too glamorous. I could never, I could never have a proper mom story.
Dr Rupy: Well, you told us actually on the, whilst we were doing the cooking. I had no idea. I had this idea of you being like, you know, taught by your mother at the stove with the the wooden spoon and being like, you know, scolded like, you know, you put the spices in too quick. And then you told me you had cooks.
Malika Basu: In my wildest dreams, mate. Like, what do you think? How do you think I was being brought up? I love it.
Dr Rupy: I love it.
Malika Basu: So when I grew up in India, it was my dad who was like the chef of the household. And my mom was really into food and loved cooking, but household cooking did her nut in. So she basically delegated to the cooks that we had in Calcutta. And of course, she's discovered a massive love for it. I consult her and my dad on recipes I file. So it has changed, but no, I had no classic Indian mom trope to revert to, unfortunately.
Dr Rupy: Did they, did they sort of correct your early recipes? Were they harsh critics of yours in the same way your kids are today with the flavour profiles or?
Malika Basu: 100%. So I cook, when I did the Indian recipes and when I do the Indian recipes still, you know, I feed a lot of Indians. And I use shortcuts as part of, you know, modern Indian cooking as in, you know, I'm cooking in a busy kitchen. It's got lots of world flavours involved in it. So I'm always looking for ways to simplify things, but I can never mess around with what it should taste like. Because, you know, Indians are a discerning crowd. And so are my children, who are my harshest critics.
Dr Rupy: I love the stories of your kids giving you feedback.
Malika Basu: Do you? We'll come back to that in a minute. They will, of course, never speak to me again, but that's fine. It might be a great blessing.
Dr Rupy: I'm sure you're still going to be shouting at me across the way from.
Malika Basu: Always. That's the most fun bit. That's the best crap joke of all.
Dr Rupy: I love that. I love it, honestly. You're so, you're so good to me. He says.
Malika Basu: I'm just going to sort of turn the lens on myself here because I think I am guilty of calling something Indian or Indian inspired, right? And, you know, with Indian parents, I'm sort of allowed a certain amount of grace to get things wrong. And I'm, I'm happy to be picked up on on those things. And I, and I think that's just the way we learn, you know, you've corrected me on stuff, Romy Gill has corrected me on stuff, Ravinder, she's probably too nice to correct me, but I'm sure she would.
Dr Rupy: Sorry. I didn't quite make the cut.
Malika Basu: But, um, you know, like India itself is just so many different things. You know, North India, South India, you've got the various states, you've got the various religious influences that, you know, has an, um, an influence on the types of proteins that we would use, all that kind of stuff. So, I would say like, when I say something Indian, am I actually being correct enough? And actually, am I encompassing the true breadth and diversity of what Indian cooking is, you know? What do you think?
Malika Basu: I think that's a really good question because, you know, so much of our, um, our sort of interest in food is inspired by the unusual, you know, new tastes, new flavours, new textures. And I do think that people who try the recipes are inspired by that too. Like if you go into a nice supermarket, you get such a breadth of ingredients now in a way that when I moved here 28 years ago, it just wasn't a similar case. Um, I think it's about bringing your audience into the journey as well. People are much more open now than ever before to learn and to be guided. And especially, I think your audience, because you know, you've got this captive audience of people who are interested in learning about health, about nutrition, about being better. And teaching them, teaching them, giving them knowledge and new tools to recognize the food of other cultures is just a fantastic opportunity. And I wouldn't, you know, I know cultural appropriation gets a really bad rap, but I think it's a brilliant opportunity to educate and inform, challenge perceptions, assumptions, and just get people more clued up about the food of different cultures.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And I think like, because the sort of world that I straddle of of health and medicine, or multiple worlds, I guess, with food as well, you're right, it is a unique opportunity to bring people on the journey and actually explain that a lot of the things that I want to try and give a foundation of science in, like the spices that we use, the beans and the different types of greens and all that kind of stuff, does have its roots in traditional medical systems. And that's quite uncomfortable actually for the sort of science folk, the the, you know, my colleagues, my my medical practitioner friends who are like, yeah, but this is a little bit woo woo. Isn't Ayurveda like, you know, a bit on the fringe side and actually is that actually evidence-based? And you know, I'm trying to sort of marry the two worlds together, like the tradition and the sort of new world of of science and stuff. And I guess in a lot of ways, what you're trying to do is marry the world of traditional cooking with new ways of experimenting with food and appreciating other cultures in a respectful way, in a way that is.
Malika Basu: Absolutely. Isn't it just about being decent people at the end of the day, right? I mean, I love when people ask me why I'm not much bigger. You know, oh, you eat all that food every day and you're not the size of a house. And I'm like, mate, India gave you seven Miss Universes and Miss Worlds. Okay, we gave you Ayurveda, we gave you yoga. You think that stuff you see in the shops is what we eat every day? Come on, come on this journey with me.
Dr Rupy: I love that.
Malika Basu: And it is, you know, I would say that the great thing is we're so much more open to it now. You know, if you think about the average person in Britain, what they know about cultures, what they're interested in, the travel we do now, you know, totally, let's not pander to people. Let's say, right, this is what you need to know. Come up. Come up and meet me somewhere.
Dr Rupy: Let's talk about some of those, um, those food sort of guidelines that you gave the the Guild of Food writers, you know, because I think the way you framed it is is great and it's something that I'm going to start referring back to a lot more as well. No more Asian inspired sources or Asian inspired dressings.
Malika Basu: Come on. And don't put soy sauce in something and call it Asian. What is that? They hate it. I know the lady who runs the Asian Leadership Council, collective, it's called, Asian Leadership Collective. And, you know, it's one big bug bear, like just a little bit of soy sauce, boss. Yeah, yeah. What's going on?
Dr Rupy: It's kind of the same thing with like, you know, sprinkle of ashwagandha and suddenly it's ayurvedic food.
Malika Basu: Everything is ayurvedic.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Or nootropics in coffee. And suddenly, I shouldn't have told you I drink nootropic coffee. This was a terrible mistake, wasn't it?
Malika Basu: No judgment. No judgment. I'm just saying, just I I I'm not a believer in it yet.
Dr Rupy: You've judged me already. What do you mean no judgment?
Malika Basu: I'm not a believer in it. Look, if it works for you, it works for you. That's fine.
Dr Rupy: I'm cancelling my subscription now. Fine, Rupy.
Malika Basu: Let me have a look at it for you. I'll tell you whether it's legit. Well, look, I came up with some principles broadly. As I in this session, um, I put in some guidelines because obviously, you know, okay, so what we're doing is wrong, how do we get it right? Because we do want people to be buying cookbooks from food writers of other cultures, buying exciting projects, experimenting with flavour in the kitchen. And you know, borderless cooking is excellent for food waste. You know, we want to be putting, if you've discovered a jar of harissa, you want to be using what's left in it in something that may not be Tunisian or Moroccan, right? So we want to encourage this stuff. The session I took to almost 900 people in the food, drink and hospitality sectors now, including Waitrose, Tesco, Greggs, Jamie Oliver Group, Nigella Lawson attended and was very complimentary. But if you're worried about language and labels, so a couple of things, right? Few things, in fact. Firstly, if you're going to work with the food of another culture, do your research properly. If you're getting that research from somewhere, if someone's actually helping you, platform them, champion them, but monetize them, pay them. You know, it's quite difficult to make ends meet if you work in food. Someone said to me, the only way to make a million pounds in food is if we start with a billion. You probably lose it all before your life is out. Um, so definitely monetize people, but also language and labels matter. You know, we we tend to exoticize things that are normal and usual for certain people. The world foods aisle is a classic example of that in a supermarket. You know, this is us and the rest of you, the rest of you from around the world, you get three shelves in like aisle back of the store, basically. Um, if you're naming a recipe, you don't know what to do. If you're cooking something that absolutely resembles very closely a recipe with heritage, it's Vietnamese, it links very closely to a Vietnamese recipe. You probably got it from a Vietnamese family, say it's Vietnamese. Talk about where you got your inspiration from, maybe champion them, name them, you know, give their Instagram profile a little mention. If you've veered away, if you're inspired by it, so you've changed a few things, but it's still quite recognizable in terms of its influence, then it's Vietnamese inspired. And if you really moved away, then it's Vietnamese style or in the style of, but not exactly. And that's quite a nice way to build relatability and familiarity, because sometimes food writers struggle with that, right? They don't know how to make something seem familiar. And then you get some weird product innovations out of that, by the way, that's a story for another time, but, you know, saying in the style of or something style works quite well. And if all you're doing is adding a splash of soya, then it's a nothing. Then you just lead with this has soy sauce and something else. Or this has tamari and harissa. It is not necessarily a dish that needs a provenance. It is coming out of your head. So just be honest about it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I so that's a a good sort of, um, starting point for when I'm thinking of recipes, I'm usually ingredient led. And then sometimes I will use like a traditional, um, sauce or a condiment. So an example that springs to mind is something that we just posted, I think last week. I used gochujang as the dominant flavour to infuse into, I think it was red beans. And then that was, and then some, some grated ginger and grated garlic, and then some tomato puree. And that was the beans element. And then I added some tenderstem broccoli, and then some kimchi, and then some other things. Look, there is probably some resemblance to something mildly Korean, but like not something that I could actually conjure in my head, like where I got the inspiration from. So I led with the ingredients. Gochujang, red beans with tenderstem broccoli and kimchi. Is that something that would meet the guidelines? Or is there something that I might be missing?
Malika Basu: No, I think you're doing really well. I think just name your ingredients, lead with the ingredients. Sometimes what I do, because you'll mess around with ingredients and you might suddenly find that they, it does in fact resemble something that you didn't know about. And it's entirely accidental. You know, because there's so many dishes, you couldn't possibly keep a tab of everything. Um, and so I will then open it up and I will say hands in the air if this resembles something that is even remotely Korean, can someone please correct me? And of course, in my case, I make everything sound Indian as well. So I might say a word that is in fact Turkish and make it sound Bengali. So I will then actively engage the interwebs to say, have I said this right? And if I haven't, I'm happy to be corrected. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, people are open to a bit of honesty and, you know, if we can flog lots of gochujang and make some artisan food companies successful, hey, I'm all for that too. Let's make a bit of money while we're at it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. And, you know, within this conversation around culture, being respectful of people, you're also talking quite a bit about the planet and I think the piece around the planet is super important for food lovers like ourselves. How are you sort of like bringing this to the masses? Because I know that you're doing a number of festivals and you're having these sort of important conversations on your podcast as well. Where do you think people should be starting?
Malika Basu: That's a really good question. So the planet piece I added quite recently last year to my stable. Um, and I just find that, you know, as food lovers, so many of us claim to be passionate food lovers. And I've talked about people for a long time, you know, food and culture, food and people. But you know, we won't have a planet to live on. Where are we going to go? We're going to end up like that Pixar movie Up.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Malika Basu: In like a spaceship, drinking fizzy pop and like stuck to our seats while there's like a plant talking to a robot on planet Earth.
Dr Rupy: I think that's Wall-E.
Malika Basu: Oh, shoot. Yes, it is Wall-E.
Dr Rupy: Up was the movie that I didn't get past the first 10 minutes because the guy, the when the guy's wife passes away, I just welled up crying.
Malika Basu: You're right. I've watched Up many times and cried, but the movie is in fact Wall-E, where they're all sitting. You haven't watched Wall-E? You must watch Wall-E. So there's basically, there is no life left on planet Earth. There's one plant and a robot. And then everyone is sitting in a spaceship drinking fizzy pop and being basically overweight and stuck to their seats.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow.
Malika Basu: So we're going to end up like that if we're not careful, because actually the way we produce, consume, waste food is terribly damaging to the planet. And so this is, I'm relatively new to this, but I do think that, you know, we're passionate food lovers. We claim to love food. We're taste makers, we're change makers. You know, we're leading the charge on flavour. And yet we're so disconnected with this conversation. You know, it's gloomy, it's depressing. It's actually not joyous. It's, you know, pleasure and joy just goes when you start talking about climate change and soil, you know, mud. That's not very exciting, is it? But, you know, we are in a unique place to take an interest. The other thing, of course, is that a lot of us live in cities. And when you live in cities and you're urban, and I'm the classic example of this, by the way, you're so disconnected with land and how things are grown and farmed. And so I've started getting more involved in what is called healthy sustainable diets in food systems transformation, would you believe it?
Dr Rupy: Wow, bit of a mouthful that, isn't it?
Malika Basu: It doesn't really slip off the tip of your tongue, does it? So my main corporate career was in communications for a long time, and that's the sort of phrase I would have banned my clients from using.
Dr Rupy: Okay, yeah, yeah.
Malika Basu: But it is a big thing.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And I guess like a follow-up question for that, because I think this conversation around people, planet, smacks of, um, people in a position of privilege and financial income that can afford to be, uh, more serving to the land, buy organic, go for regenerative, make sure they know where they're getting their animal and dairy products from, use sustainable fish stocks, uh, fish, uh, fishing methods, you know, go to the local fishmongers and get the day boats, all that kind of stuff, right? Things that I I want to do as well. But you know this, feeding your family, making sure everything's done on a budget. What are the sort of things that you come up against and things that you can do to sort of reframe the conversation to be a little bit more inclusive about this whole thing?
Malika Basu: That's one of the big reasons I'm involved, to be honest. So if you look at our cultures, if you look at the global south, if you look at South Asia, if you look at East and Southeast Asia, you know, we're still doing a lot of the things that are sustainable. It's in our cultures. So if you look at South Asians, we're still eating seasonally. You know, we're teaching our kids how to cook. Um, we're eating locally, we're sourcing food locally. We're not hugely dependent on massive retailers where power and power is concentrated. And yet, where are the diverse voices in the conversation? There aren't a lot of diverse voices in the conversation. So I think we're in a unique place to actually lead the charge and talk about some of the good things we're doing. Beans is a classic example. You know, the global south, we're using beans. We're using beans in our diet. And they're great for the planet. They're great as a source of nutrition. They're cheap, they're affordable. And yet, if you look at Western diets, they don't exist. Like people are trying to reintroduce beans into the diets in the mainstream. You know, beans grown in the UK, if you look at work that Hodmedod's is doing or Bold Beans, some of these brands, you know, I learned that the beans that are grown in the UK go to the Middle East for livestock feed, and they're perfectly edible. They're perfectly okay for human consumption. We just don't know how to cook them. We're not into them. You know, which is for me, crazy. And I'm sure for you as well, because they're delicious. Like who doesn't like beans? Um, so I think part of the challenge is there aren't a lot of diverse voices in the space. I think the field of sustainability generally is not very diverse. It's quite a privileged space. It's quite middle class. Uh, it's not very ethnically diverse. And so I have a long life of doing this, by the way. I sort of tend to see spaces that need diverse voices and then just step into the fray. And so that's kind of how I got involved really. And I think the more people who can lend their voices, the better. The other question you had was about the the privilege in the conversations. You're absolutely right. Whether we like it or not, we are in a cost of living crisis and it is expensive. You know, I know what sort of food I need to buy. Can I afford it? No. You know, I have to feed a household. It's a small household. You know, I'm a single parent, which is a solo household half the week when my kids are with their dad. And I can't afford to buy a lot of the types of fish and meat and, you know, organic veg that I should be. And that is a reality. You know, and we've also got food culture to work against where, you know, time pressures, lifestyles, you know, we don't cook a lot at home. We don't understand food, fruit, veg. So there's lots of different, if you like, onion layers to the challenge. But the starting point, I would say are two things. One is caring, actually taking an active interest, you know, and the way it's being talked about needs to change. So hopefully I can get involved in that and break things down a bit, bring a few crap jokes into it as well. What do you think?
Dr Rupy: No, if anyone's going to crack into this, it's going to be you, Malika. You bring joy to whatever the conversation might be. So.
Malika Basu: Yeah, try try planet, mate. That's like, growing a few new grey hairs talking about climate change lately, but anyway. Um, but you know, food is, it contributes to a third of all, to a third of all greenhouse gases. So this is a serious conversation. And actually climate change is already affecting things like vegetable harvests and, you know, food security and things. So we do need to worry about these things, but just being open about it and embracing it, I think is a starting point. And then I need to find some jokes, obviously.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. And look, I have my own bias around these things because I just feel like food is the missing piece in so many different conversations. The climate piece, the health piece, the cultural piece, the loneliness piece, the mental health crisis, like everything, like food is just such a an incredible giver of health, giver of, uh, community, giver, like it just connects and inspires us to just be better humans on so many different levels. And it sounds esoteric, but like when you actually break it down and you look at the cost of ill health, you look at the cost of climate, you look at the knock-on economic impact, it's just it always comes down to food to me, always. It's hard to run away from it. And so, more power to you. If you can break down these conversations with a few crap jokes.
Malika Basu: Not a few, a lot of jokes. I think it's all about the jokes. We'll I'll be reporting back. Let's see if this works. I do think you're right. I, you know, I talk a lot about the role of food as a great leveler and unifier. And we saw that in the pandemic. You know, it didn't matter how much money you had, the supermarket shelves were empty. You know, it was a struggle for a lot of people. Loads of people lost their jobs. I lost my, you know, work. I became unemployed in the pandemic. And I saw firsthand what it was like having to shop on a budget, you know, really think about food waste in in a way that was economically efficient, max out ingredients. And, you know, things are really changing for people. It's not how it used to be. And so being conscious in terms of how food can actually contribute to people, their health. We've got over, what is it, over a billion people now obese in the world. The amount of food we waste can feed the world's hungry two times over. Did you know that? It's completely inequitable. But also this stuff about buying, you know, nice beef or nice fish is kind of dinner party snobbery now. People actually use that as a way to, you know, set them set themselves apart from the Joneses. But that's not what this is about, is it? It's just about recognizing the value and the worth of food.
Dr Rupy: Gosh, I'm so glad you stepped out of the kitchen and into these conversations because, you know, you're just so much more than cooking. Not that that's, you know, diminishing to anyone, but I just, I'm just so glad that your voice is in this mix. And as many, you know, more sort of platforms you can get to add your wealth of knowledge and your experience and your perspective to it, more power to you, Malika.
Malika Basu: Oh, thank you, Rupy.
