Sarah: Five year plan, does anyone else go sort of cold and start sweating when anyone hears the phrase five year plan? Because I, I always start sweating because basically five year plans are like looking into a crystal ball and saying a load of stuff which will definitely change two and a half years in. But that's, that's my experience anyway of a five year plan. The vision originally, which at its very essence has stayed the same. And the vision was, and I've said it earlier, to inspire people to grow, cook and eat more plants.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests while we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life. If you love listening to passionate and enthusiastic visionaries, you are going to love my guest today, Sarah Betney. She is the founder of plant-based community and cookery school Made in Hackney. They fired up their hobs for the first time in 2012 and if you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that I've been a supporter and ambassador for them since 2016. The school delivers cookery and food growing classes across London with the aim to inspire people to grow, cook and eat more plants for the benefit of both human and planetary health. I've actually led a few classes in the past and they are wonderful celebrations of food, community and culture. Their food crosses the fields of food justice, climate action, community cohesion, health equality and so much more. And now, thanks to their online programme, people can experience Made in Hackney's multicultural plant-based global cuisine focus classes from anywhere in the world. It is truly an incredible organisation. And in addition to their cookery classes, the school now provides free nutritious meals delivered by cycle courier to households in need of food support. Now this was actually a service started in response to the pandemic that left vulnerable people at risk of hunger and I'm glad to say that this service is still up and running and has been added as yet another service that Made in Hackney will offer to their community in 2022. They're crowdfunding to support this service for another year so if you're interested and fired up after listening to this conversation with Sarah to support them, just click on the link at the top of the description in your pod player right now, go check out the video and see what they're all about. Just a little bit of background, prior to founding Made in Hackney, Sarah was a freelance journalist with a specialism in reggae music and was a community food grower and gardening teacher. Her story is absolutely wonderful and you're going to hear more about her right now. I've also linked to her TED talk which is about why the world needs more community kitchens, again in the show notes that you can find on the doctorskitchen.com. Enjoy this conversation, I hope you're just as fired up as me. It is a wonderful organisation, I can't support them enough. Do go check them out, but for now, on to the pod. Epic. I mean it's so much nicer doing this when you're in person, but unfortunately such is life. And you've, you just had a cold as well, so we had to reschedule. How are you feeling first of all?
Sarah: This super cold spanks your ass hard. I mean. Respect to the super cold because I am a superhuman and I don't get ill and it's just gone. Bad, bad.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean it would have been bad because you're not one to want to reschedule, you usually power through, but wow, yeah, wipes you out, hey?
Sarah: And I'm still ill now. I've got a load of slap on, but yeah, it's, it's intense. It's intense, the super cold.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Sarah: We were all locked up for ages. We weren't circulating all our germs. So I mean, I'm not an expert in that area, but there does seem to be some truth in the fact that this winter's round of bugs and colds seem to be particularly poignant and pungent.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, particularly with kids as well. They just haven't had the exposure and so a lot of one and two year olds are getting sick pretty bad at the moment. So yeah, I know, it's a, it's a nasty time, which is why actually, I know I was just saying that as I was touching my face, but I'm at home. So, uh, but that's not an excuse actually. So washing your hands, if anyone listening to this, we're doing an exercise, wash your hands and try and count the number of times you either touch your face or go to touch your face and try and control that because entry points for viruses are not just nasally or through your mouth, it's actually through like your eyes, it's through any sort of surface membrane. So yeah, and I have a really bad habit of like when I'm listening to something or like, you know, watching something or having a conversation with someone, yeah, touching my hand, touching my face. So it's just something to bear in mind particularly during the winter months.
Sarah: It's so hard to unravel doing that though because it's part of our hard wiring as human beings. We touch our face, certainly with certain social interactions, you're going to touch your face, but yes, we do need to try not to.
Dr Rupy: Listen, I'm super glad that we got some time to chat and sit down and talk about your journey because there's so much I want to chat to you about and a few things I learned actually after just reading your bio. I always love especially people that I've known for years and they send over the bio. I'm like, I did not know that. So yeah, I'm excited to talk about stuff.
Sarah: Me too. I've been waiting for this conversation, Rupy, for a long time. You kept us in the wings for a long time, but we're here now. So I'm really happy to talk to you. And of course, we've seen your journey, like when you first got in touch with us for Made in Hackney and said I'd like to do some volunteering. Because I used to do media, I took one look at you, how you presented yourself, how you connected with people, what your mission was, your cause, and I thought, books, TV shows, big career in health and wellbeing. And that's exactly what happened and it's been beautiful to watch. So yeah, it's been, it's been lovely. It's been lovely to watch.
Dr Rupy: You're such a charmer, honestly. I do want to talk about that actually because when the first time I came across, um, uh, Made in Hackney was when I got back from Australia and I, uh, I'll be honest, I was selfishly trying to look at ways in which I could try and improve my culinary skills. So I thought, why don't I go to a kitchen where they, they do like soups or they do like, you know, um, uh, like a, like a soup kitchen or something like that where I can just chop away and contribute to whatever great cause. And I just so happened to come across Made in Hackney. And when I, when I got there, I realized it was a very different thing that I'd bargained for. And it was, you know, this volunteer, this sort of culture of, uh, looking after the local community who are not necessarily homeless, but, you know, at risk of food insecurity and a whole bunch of other. So that really did open my eyes up into the world that you've been immersed in yourself for over 10 years. But this isn't about me.
Sarah: Because you know what, Rupy, lots of people initially would encounter Made in Hackney and think we were something like a soup kitchen or a feeding service. And when we launched, we were very much only about being a community cookery school. So it was about sharing skills, collaborating with community members to learn about their different cultural cuisines. And essentially our mission was to get people to grow, cook and eat more plants. So everything was, was geared around celebrating plant-based cuisine. So yeah, people did turn up thinking they were going to cook 400 portions of food for the local homeless shelter and it was like, no, this is a cookery school. You're doing a class. This is about you and your journey. And it was very much the whole community. We have people that are architects and GPs coming to our classes as well as people coming who are maybe living in temporary accommodation or they're some local mums from the local Muslim cultural centre. It really is for everyone. It's only in the last two years that we've moved into the food support service space. So that's quite a new thing. But yeah, it's what most people thought we were doing at the beginning but weren't.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And in the intro, I'm going to point people to the wonderful TED talk that you did about why the world needs more community kitchens. But, uh, but let's talk a bit about your origin story. So you used to be a reggae, well, freelance journalist with a specialist interest in reggae music, right? So and I don't think I've heard you DJ or anything at this point. I'm still yet to see the, the, the reggae side of you. But tell us a bit more about that because that is fascinating for me.
Sarah: So I'm not going to speak patois or do anything really embarrassing as a white blonde woman from Lincolnshire who would now probably be described as middle class. I'm not going to do anything like that. But, um, yeah, I was a, I started off as a music and culture journalist and what I really fell in love with about reggae and dancehall music was the sort of social justice, historical piece around it. And you know, I was a 22 year old young person finding their way in the world and very much being aware that the stories mainstream media were telling us about certain communities, about certain people weren't true. And basically trying to unravel structural racism but without knowing that phrase, structural racism, age 22. So I was very, very interested in learning about other people's cultures and histories. And so reggae is obviously so rich when it comes to that, that history and the, the sort of social justice and purpose of the music that that just really got me good and proper. And I think also I was a bit of a novelty act. People liked the fact that there was this 22 year old blonde girl trotting around Jamaica interviewing people. And I got on really, really well with all the reggae musicians and artists. I think there's a bit of, um, similarity between sort of North England humour and banter that that sort of blends quite well with, with sort of Jamaican culture. Yeah, yeah, you kind of, yeah, you can give as good as you get and it's all kind of good jokes and, yeah, and so that, that was an amazing phase of my life. But then as I kind of aged, after a while, writing about music culture became a little bit similar, you know, day in, day out. So then I broadened out and was writing more about environmental issues and wider social justice issues. But yeah, my early career was very much as a reggae music journalist.
Dr Rupy: That's amazing. That's amazing. Was that your entry into, I mean, because you've been a vegetarian/vegan for many years, but was that your entry into proper vegan food, like Ital cuisine?
Sarah: It absolutely was. So I was a vegetarian from the age of nine. I was a very stubborn, strong-headed nine-year-old. No one else was veggie in my family, but thankfully my mum supported me. She was a home economics teacher. The fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. Look, I'm now running a cooking school. You try so hard to be different to your parents and then you just become them. Um, so, so, um, I was a vegetarian from nine through the very simplistic motivation of not wanting to eat animals and I liked animals. Very simple rationale. And then, um, when I visited Jamaica for the first time, I was introduced to Ital food, which is food cooked by Rastafarian chefs, which is vegan, but there's also some other credentials to it, like it's usually cooked without salt. Um, you know, different Ital chefs have different spins on it, but it's very wholesome food. And I felt phenomenally well for the whole time I was in Jamaica. This food really seemed to make a difference in my body. And so when I got home, I thought I'm going to really learn about this cuisine, plus I had a certain visit lined up from an Ital food chef from Jamaica and I thought, I can't cook, I need to learn to cook. Oh my goodness. So I learned to cook vegan recipes and I took myself off to Viva, which was a vegan campaigning organisation. And it was there I was exposed to the kind of other side of eating dairy and eggs. And I'd thought being vegetarian was enough. And then I was exposed to this additional information about, you know, industrial sized dairy farming and egg farming, etc. And I thought, oh, okay, penny dropped. I actually really need to be vegan. And so it was the Ital food community that really started me on that path.
Dr Rupy: Wow. And so Ital food, forgive my ignorance, I don't know much about Ital other than that it tastes absolutely delicious and they use quite a similar flavour palette, I think, that you'll find in Indian cuisine. So things like ground cumin, a lovely mixture of spices like, um, chillies, I believe cinnamon's in there as well. Um, there's a, there's a really lovely sort of robust, quite a distinct flavour. Um, but is that grounded in a sort of traditional medicine in the same way you might find traditional Chinese medicine or or even Ayurveda?
Sarah: Oh, that's an interesting question. I, I don't think it is, but I would strongly recommend you get an Ital food chef on your show who can talk to you all about that because yeah, I'm not really the person to represent Ital food culture to the global audience. But, um, it certainly makes you feel very, very well and it actually healed my IBS. I had a persistent IBS condition and by eating Ital food and predominantly those kind of recipes for six months afterwards, um, it was, it was healed.
Dr Rupy: Wow, wow. I'll definitely have to check that out and you'll have to introduce me to an Ital specialist chef.
Sarah: Oh, I have many I can introduce you to. That would be a pleasure.
Dr Rupy: So, so tell us about this life-changing conversation that you had with the Indian activist, Vandana Shiva. And this is something I didn't know. I didn't actually realize that you'd met her because she is a bit of a hero or heroine of mine. Um, she's, uh, incredibly persuasive. Her orating skills are next to none. She is, um, yeah, she's a wonderful, I've never had the pleasure of meeting her, but, but tell us about that conversation.
Sarah: Just hearing her conviction, her knowledge, her passion, it really landed in my heart. And I think as we go through life, we meet certain people and have certain conversations which really guide our life's path and our life's purpose. And it was one of those conversations that really did that for me. You know, when I had that conversation, I was wearing very glamorous clothes, standing in a lifestyle magazine's office in central London. And I was always the quirky one that tried to ram articles in the magazine that were a bit worthy. People thought they were a bit worthy. Um, I was quite, you know, people used to take the mick out of me for doing the worthy stories. Um, but then I realized that's what I really, that's who I was and that's really what I was about. And, and food, I'd, you know, had always been a big part of my life. And, and after that conversation with her, I thought that is what I want to dedicate the next phase of my life to, to, to food justice, to, you know, food empowerment, whatever that looks like, and to try and be of service to that cause in whatever way I possibly could. Um, so I very much put that down to the conversation I had with her. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's amazing because it sounds like at that young age, you really found your purpose and you just sort of dove into it head first. I mean, uh, it's, it, like everything appears to align. Is that fair to say?
Sarah: I'd say it was fair to say in terms of the output of Made in Hackney, which is, you know, we collaborate with people to change their diets in ways that are culturally appropriate, that are celebratory, that make you feel well, that make you feel good, that make your kids feel good. And when I see that, the result of my work, that is definitely what I should be doing with my life. But if we actually talk about what it means to run a small charity, the bureaucracy of it, the grind of it, the uphill treadmill of fundraising, I definitely don't always feel like that's my, um, sole purpose. But the output of those efforts is definitely my sole purpose, if that makes sense.
Dr Rupy: Well, let's talk about that origin story right there, right? Because the, the how Made in Hackney actually came about was, was fortuitous in a number of different ways. It seemed like lots of things aligned at the, at the perfect time.
Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I was, uh, still a freelance journalist and I was doing a permaculture course as part of this sort of transition over into working in food and environmental issues and wanting to do something more tangible, like with my hands, rather than writing about other people's awesome projects and other people's artistic works. I felt like it was time to really do something with my hands and not just with words, um, and being a voyeur on other people's projects, but to actually produce something ourselves. So I was on a permaculture course and I was just casually asked, oh, there's a health food shop that needs a funding bid writing. You're a writer, go and meet them. You can write it. And that conversation led to the very first funding bid that became Made in Hackney being written. And it happened completely by chance and I'd never written a funding bid before, never designed a community project before. It was complete naivety and I just dove in head first, youthful arrogance and blissful ignorance combining in sort of beautiful mixture. And, um, we actually got the funding. We applied for 120,000 pounds from the big lottery. I had no idea that this was an enormous sum for a first grant application. I had nothing to peg it to. Um, and, and we got the money, but we didn't find out for about six months to 10 months later when the grant round was closing. So I think they needed to give out the money and they just thought, oh, go on. This project, go on, go on then, because they gave us the money and said, this is two years worth of money, but you need to spend it in a year and a half. So they were obviously struggling to give out the last, the last few bits of money. So I think many things aligned in our favour that basically boiled down to luck that brought that very first grant application to life for Made in Hackney. But when I look back, it was a very thorough application. We did a huge amount of community consultation, you know, we did a huge amount of talking to other groups in the area working in food and everyone said, we need a kitchen, we need a kitchen space, we need a cookery school, we don't have this. So it may have been very lucky, but it was also a very thorough piece of work as well.
Dr Rupy: Well, it sounds it. It sounds like it was a true reflection of what the public, uh, or that community wanted in that area. So I think it's a really good use of funds as well of that grant. And so, so take us back to that, that vision at that point. What, what were your ambitions? Was it to become this global service that you've now become? I want to talk about the extra features that you've added since, but, you know, at that time, what, what, what was like your, your five-year plan and, and how are you actually going to put this into action considering your experience was as a writer?
Sarah: Five-year plan, does anyone else go sort of cold and start sweating when anyone hears the phrase five-year plan? Because I, I always start sweating because basically five-year plans are like looking into a crystal ball and saying a load of stuff which will definitely change two and a half years in. But that's, that's my experience anyway of a five-year plan. The vision originally, which at its very essence has stayed the same. And the vision was, and I've said it earlier, to inspire people to grow, cook and eat more plants because we could really see that there was this intersection of issues that could be addressed by people having access to better quality food that was predominantly plants. So we would be able to address the climate crisis by moving people towards a more planet-friendly diet. We'd be able to, you know, be working in the food justice space where when you know how to cook your own food using basic ingredients, your shopping bill can really be lowered versus if you don't really know how to cook and you're relying more on ready meals, etc. If you know how to work your way around flowers and lentils and grains and you feel confident to do that, you can cook for a much lower price. It also meant you, we could kind of work in the sort of economic inequality, social justice space. It also meant we could kind of be working in the structural racism space by looking at how certain communities are living in what people refer to as food apartheid. That's a phrase was coined by Karen Washington, who's a food activist in America. And she uses the phrase food apartheid because she says food deserts is very much an outsider term. That's someone looking in and making a study on a group of people. Where if you're those people experiencing that lack of access to food, meaning there's no affordable, nutritious food outlets near your home within a one to two mile radius, you are experiencing that and it is intentional. It's not by chance. Like the phrase food desert sounds like it just accidentally kind of happened due to outside, you know, some sort of geographical forces. It is intentional and it's a trickle down of the structural racism that's been in place for years. And also it meant we could play in that space of sort of dietary information back then was a little bit outdated. So having been a vegan for sort of 10 years by then, I knew that there was a lot of misinformation and pushback from the mainstream medical profession about the vegan diet or even people just eating vegan food three or four times a week, you know, which, which would be a huge win for the planet and a huge win for people's health if it's a whole foods plant-based vegan meal rather than a load of junk, which is fun sometimes, but not, you know, four times a week. So the project was a way of kind of working in all of those places in intersection and it, it still is today. Um, what's hard about the project is everyone who comes to Made in Hackney goes on a unique journey. So someone might come to Made in Hackney who's had anorexia and they come to us to heal their relationship with food by volunteering, supporting our classes, coming to our classes. Someone else might come because their child has a lot of allergies and they need to cook free from meals and they feel completely lost and they don't know what to cook their kid. Someone else might come because their partner's died after 40 years of being together and he's having to learn or she's having to learn how to cook for the first time in their entire life. So scientifically, it's very hard to quantify the incredible benefit people have when they come on a Made in Hackney course. People come to us for six weeks or one-off classes, but we're always there for them to engage with, come back to a plant-based class and and sort of dig in. We've had people cure themselves of their type two diabetes, come to one of our courses, had an amazing time, been blown away that plant food can actually taste really nice. It's not like rabbit food. Um, and then they've run with that learning at home and then kept coming back to us for the odd top-up class and then they themselves have healed themselves from type two diabetes by making those changes to their diet. So there's so many different journeys people go on when they come to us. And what's really beautiful about it is that people come to us and actually practically cook the food. It's really hard for a doctor or a nurse to just tell people, don't eat this, do eat this, go home and do it. It's completely bewildering. How do you make that leap from being told what you should maybe be eating? And who, who likes being told what they should eat? That's just a terrible approach in the first place. You have to, like at Made in Hackney, we suggest, we have fun with the food, we have a joyful experience and if you want to eat it, you can. Telling people what to eat often doesn't go very well, we've learned. So, you know, people have such an incredible space to take control of their own health journeys and actually eat the food for themselves. Early on in Made in Hackney's, um, development, we had the privilege of being invited to a diabetes training course led by the NHS. And the first part of the course was phenomenal. I learned so much about diabetes and about the medical aspect of it. And then we moved into the section about what people could eat. And it was like a masterclass to me in what not to do to convince someone to change their diet. It was based on deprivation, misery and everything you couldn't and shouldn't do. And this group of people went from looking engaged, informed and empowered to looking depressed, sad, like they didn't want to be there, like they just wanted to eject themselves from that room. And we even went on a supermarket tour. And the supermarket tour focused on everything people should not be eating, rather than what they could be eating. And I can remember going on it and thinking, oh, yes, I see what's going wrong here. I see what's happening. So we always make sure that in our cooking classes that they're always about joy and bringing people joy and accepting people where they are, because if there's too much push when it comes to food and there's too much of a sense of deprivation or not being seen, your culture, your food needs not being seen, people aren't going to make the changes that will most benefit their health. So, um, that was a huge answer to like one question. I can't even remember the question. But, um, that, that's kind of the beauty of running a cooking school versus sitting in a room and telling people what to eat, which is a really important job, but we can really take people to that next level of their journey.
Dr Rupy: I mean, there's so much that resonates with me and I want to pick out from there. I mean, as someone who has experienced a bunch of classes in the past and even led a couple as well, back in the day.
Sarah: Oh, yes. You're due a repeat show, you know, Rupy. We're definitely due a repeat show. I'm glad you mentioned that. Thank you.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know you've been on at me to do it. I mean, the last couple of years, I mean, come on, it's been a bit busy. So with, with this thing called the pandemic and like me going pretty much full time. So, but no, I, I will, I will do something at some point in the future for sure. Um, but those, those classes are super joyful and actually that's where I sort of conjured up this, uh, idea or this vision as to how we could potentially have multiple Made in Hackneys across, uh, the UK, across the globe, why not? And affiliating them with GP surgeries because you're right, when I'm in that clinic seat and I'm tasked with explaining what type two diabetes is or X-rays or or insert condition is, also trying to give them as much information about the pharmaceutical interventions and motivating them to do things that are within their locus of control and empowering them to make changes, it's near impossible. And so it's not a nice to have that we have community kitchens like yours, it's a need, like we need that to exist in communities. And so I, I, I'd like to ask you a bit more actually about the attitude of health professionals from when you started to, to what it is like today. I mean, certainly you've had a fan of me the whole time, but not everyone, I guess, is as progressive, if I could use that word.
Sarah: Absolutely. And Rupy, when you came and found us and what I loved about you is that you weren't vegan, but you totally got what we did, which was we were trying to put plants in the centre of people's dinner plates and get people eating more plant-based meals. We weren't necessarily trying to convert people to being 100% vegan. If that happens, wonderful. If not, it's a massive win if people eat whole foods plant-based meals three or four times a week. That's just fabulous. So when you came along, that was a real joy to me because it was that, that sort of acceptance of each other's individual choices whilst having the shared vision that more plants is better for people and planet was where we were going. We certainly had some very funny, now it's funny, but at the time it was a bit distressing, pushback from dietitians and and certain health experts who looked at us like we were a cult because we were vegan. They were very scared of our agenda. Um, they, I remember once we had a group of young people come, fabulous group of youngsters who were all in, um, a special education program because they didn't get on with mainstream schooling. So they came to us for cooking for six weeks, amazing chefs. And the first week they ate, um, chili non carne, so it had kind of red lentils in it and brown lentils. And they had this incredible salad that they seasoned up with this barbecue mango dressing and brown rice. And they all had huge plates of it and it was just beautiful. And on the way out, the dietitian looked at us in the face and went, I'm a bit concerned you guys are going to be lacking in nutrients today and handed out ham and cheese sandwiches, packets of crisps and KitKats. And my jaw just hit the ground. But I knew I was in this for the long run and if we were going to win hearts and minds and and stomachs and win people over that we were pushing back against a lot of culture and a lot of outdated information and I always tell myself that dietitian was acting from her belief that that was a good place to act from. She was acting from a good intention. So I have to always remind myself that, otherwise I'd have had some quite lively arguments with a few people. And I just said, okay, well if anyone's got room, do enjoy that second lunch. And because, you know, we want the young people to come back. We don't want that, that sort of prejudice from that person to stop the young people coming back. So we had all sorts of interesting, um, experiences like that. But to some of those people's credit, because we weren't rude, because we respected them, some of the people that pushed back the hardest now refer their patients to us. I mean, it's taken eight years. But, you know, I didn't like light up any bridges. I kept it very polite and respectful because I also understand food is very emotional and that dietitian has been to training school and got all of their qualifications. I have none in food, none in nutrition. So I have to respect that and maybe, you know, the information was a little bit out of date and you just have to respect where people are coming from. But yes, we had a lot of pushback and it's really beautiful now to actually get referrals from GPs and get referrals from the diabetes department. It's, it brings me great joy when I see referrals from our, um, local health, you know, health facilities because it definitely was, um, not always like that in the beginning.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it's, I think it's that attitude of, uh, compassion and, um, the ability to hold conflicting ideas, uh, and still get on, honestly. I think, uh, it's something that, uh, the organisation, all your colleagues do very, very well. And I think that's really important when it, especially when it comes to food, which is such an emotive subject. It's not just a fuel for, um, supporting preventing illness. There's so much more to it and that's why I think it needs to be handled with respect and that's something that you guys do super, super well. Um, yeah, so I just wanted to commend you on that. That's, that's an amazing story. I haven't heard that one before.
Sarah: I've got so many stories. I mean, I've kept many of them to myself out of respect to be honest because there's some really, there's some really colourful ones. But, um, yes, yes. It's, it's, I understand how loaded food is and no one wants to feel lectured to and, you know, especially when it comes to people's cultural food needs, you know, if, you know, if you've never seen a plant-based interpretation of your home cultural foods, why, you know, it's, it's a huge leap for people to make. So we've spent many years building up a really beautiful roster of extremely diverse teachers so that there's that connection, that cultural connection to their community. So when they're sharing recipes, it's done with all the anecdotes, all the, you know, authenticity and all that connection that's needed to build that bridge, you know, towards plants. And if, and it's up to people if they want to take it home and run with it or, or not, you know, that's, that's their choice. We've just done an amazing six weeks program where it was all West African plant-based foods with an incredible collection of women. And one of them said, Sarah, this is very clever because I had no interest in plant-based eating and I just find you vegans annoying, no offense. Um, but, but, but this food has been delicious. This food has been delicious and I want to make it again and Nena, the chef is an absolute culinary mistress and I'm all for it now. I can't believe I'm saying this. So that's brilliant. I know it was amazing. It was amazing. Um, I love hearing things like that. So, yeah, it's, it's about having a really good sense of humour as well and just really respecting people and people's stories and where they're coming from because, you know, I've been a sort of food activist and environmental activist for almost like, you know, 15 years now, but before Made in Hackney started, and I could easily jump on my soapbox and shout, we are running out of time, people. We need to start eating more plants now or the planet's going to burn. Are you not listening? Come on. But I know there's different organisations that can do that, who do that very well. And certain sections of society will listen and be moved by that. And then there's other parts of society who will never listen to that kind of very direct information sharing. And so what we do is we build that bridge between everyone where we start with the answer, which is eating more plant-based meals, and then it's up to people themselves how much they apply it in their journey. So if they read that piece about, you know, environmentalism and eating more plants, or they read that piece about industrialized meat farming, they can instead of feeling so powerless, they can kind of go, oh, actually, I do, actually do know how to, how to cook in this way if I want to. So we kind of lead with the solution first, and then we just have conversations about the other stuff. There's no kind of soapboxing. We just have conversations and we all learn a lot from it and we learn hugely from the community members that come to our classes. It's not us teaching and them listening, it's just an exchange. And I think that, that's what makes it, um, quite beautiful and more impactful as well. Because again, in a, like with you in a doctor's surgery, the power dynamic is very much the power's with the doctor and the patient sits passively. Um, and when it feels more collaborative, I think people instinctively feel more empowered to, to continue on the journey.
Dr Rupy: I get a, a bit of pushback, um, from colleagues and and other people about talking to people about healthy eating because it's seen as, um, quite privileged and it's not encompassing of the other issues that surround poor diet in general. And and I guess, you know, considering the school has has worked with over 15,000 people across the capital, you know, you're inspiring people to eat better for themselves, for the planet, and you're tackling those inequalities, whether it be in education or in access. What, maybe you can give us some insight into what your experience of the barriers to healthy eating are and your ideas about how we can overcome that as well. And obviously, this is something that you're doing regardless.
Sarah: I mean, this is a huge topic of conversation. Um, there are so many potential barriers. It could be that people literally don't have a kitchen. So they're living in temporary accommodation, um, that doesn't have a kitchen or they have a kitchen that they don't want to spend any time in. And I'll let you fill in the gaps yourself about why they might not want to spend time in that kitchen. You know, it could be that they're working three jobs on rotation just to keep, you know, the the household expenses coming through and their and their children cared for. It could be that they're living in working poverty. I hate that word because it sounds so disempowering, but people know what I mean, where the money you earn is less than benefit level, but you choose to work because it gives you a sense of purpose, it gets you out of bed every day and you want to work. You know, so there's so many reasons, there's so many barriers to healthy eating. Um, and a cookery school can't, can't really address them all because really it's, um, that's a conversation about capitalism and why some sections of society that do vital jobs get really, really low pay and other people don't and why benefit levels haven't gone up in line with rising housing prices and food prices, etc. You know, that's, that's a conversation for economists to have, but you know, we can see those, those changes where, you know, the cost of living isn't going hand in hand with the cost of what benefits people get. It isn't going hand in hand with the lowest earners in society. So if those, it doesn't take rocket science to realize if those prices are all going up and the others aren't, then where does that leave people in the middle? Really struggling to make ends meet, to make choices about, you know, is it food or heating? Is it a new pair of shoes or is it food? So, yeah, we, we encounter all, all sorts of challenges with the cookery school and what people have in terms of what they need to get over in order to eat healthy food. But what they all tend to tell us is this has been so affirming for me because, you know, you've come into our hostel or you've come into our shelter or you've come into wherever and we've worked out as a sort of team, the things that we can do, the things that we could cook, the things that we maybe could eat, the things that we could access with our budget and with our lifestyle. So we have the time to make our courses and programs bespoke for those different groups of people. And that's what we always do before we deliver a course, we'll find out in advance, so what's your cooking facilities like? What's your sort of shopping budget? You know, do you own a food processor or is that just crazy talk? You know, because some groups we work with own all these things, they have all these things, you know, and other groups don't. So we can't just create some bespoke course. Years ago, someone said, oh, you should just create a bespoke course and roll it out nationally. And I was like, yeah, I can see a few problems with that actually, because everyone's living situation is so different that the courses need a different, a different focus for each group of people. But I think, you know, we can get very wrapped up in, should we be eating turmeric? Should we be having spirulina? Should we be doing this? And then we forget that for a huge chunk of society, just getting enough nutritious food of their preference is a massive challenge. And the amount of people that are, that are in that boat, there's debate right now whether it's 3 million people or 8 million people and the number is kind of sliding between those two, either is enormous. Um, and so that's, you know, that's why we now also work in the food support space so that when people really can't afford to do any shopping and are just living off biscuits and tea, we can kind of come in and deliver meals to them. But, um, but the answer is, the answer is pay people more money. That's really what it is. Pay the lowest earners more money, increase people's benefits for when times get bad and they really need support. The end of that report.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I actually had, um, Prof Guy Standing on the podcast about 18 months ago. It was in the middle of the, well, the first wave of the pandemic and he's a big proponent of, uh, UBI, universal basic income. I'll be honest, I was a bit of a skeptic before, but the more I learn about it, the more I'm actually a fan of it. And I think it's probably going to be a necessary, um, move rather than an optional move for society as we move towards more automation. Um, and, uh, I did ask him a question though that he disagreed with me on. It was about whether we should be providing free food, uh, as in free quality raw ingredients rather than, you know, sandwiches and crisps and that kind of stuff. Um, for the public and he actually said, no, we should be giving them cash. Um, and he has his reasons for that, you know, he's performed a bunch of experiments, um, in different communities and and observed a whole bunch as well, particularly ones I think that were carried out in Finland if my memory serves me correctly. I wonder what your opinion on that is considering your experience.
Sarah: Completely agree with him. If we had the means to give people 30 quid a week and say do your shopping, we would. But because we are cooking the food ourselves, we're using surplus food, so there's a lot of food donations, we are basically spinning gold like many other food organisations do across the UK where we're producing delicious, nutritious, low-cost meals for a super, super cheap price that would be very, very hard for people to emulate in their homes because we're getting massive bulk donations of surplus food that we're utilizing for these meals. But in an ideal world, give people money and let them choose their own food. No one wants free food. No one wants to use our service. I don't want to provide our service because I'd like it not to be no need for it. But until we are in a place as a society where we really see that, we really see what people's true financial needs are, and we don't have politicians arguing about keeping a second job and then taking away 20 quid from the world's poorest, you know, the country's poorest people. I mean, that's just a madness. What is going on in that house? Um, so until we can move away from that, um, free food provision is, is really needed. But I absolutely agree with him. Give people money, ideally. Give people money. People want jurisdiction over their whole, over their food, what they eat, then it supports the local economy, it supports local independent businesses. Totally agree with that. But in the meantime, until that money is forthcoming, food support services like we, like what we do are absolutely crucial both short-term, long-term and as a safety net. So if people have got a bit lost in, um, the start of the pandemic, Made in Hackney launched a food support service, so separate from the community cookery school. And this service, we were providing, um, one meal a day during the pandemic to 500 people across the borough and it was all being delivered by volunteer and paid cycle couriers. Um, so we really supported people through that first hump of the pandemic. And people getting these meals were all sorts, people were medically vulnerable, elders who couldn't get an online shop, you know, there were people who'd suddenly lost their jobs, there were people that were waiting for benefits to come through and they didn't have a financial safety net, so they had zero money until that benefit money kicked in. It was all, you know, all sorts of reasons why people needed food support. So we started doing that at the pandemic as it broke. And we were, we started with 200 people and within weeks we were delivering to 500 people a day, which was quite an undertaking. Um, since then, we've scaled the service back because quite a number of those people, um, you know, eventually found other ways of accessing food, which was fantastic. So now we support 200 people, um, regularly with food and we drop three meals on a Tuesday and three meals on a Thursday. And those meals are to help get through the week. That's not someone's some food for the week. Someone's going to be really hungry, but it means they can patch around it with, you know, like porridge and cereal and, and you've got that one really nutrient dense meal that provide, that uses a lot of herbs and spices and you need a pantry of food to really create that meal. They can kind of patch around it with other things that are quite low cost or that someone's buying from the local corner shop or whatever they need to do to make that work. So that food service was always meant to be an emergency provision and we were going to stop doing it. But we've found we just can't because the need is so great and when we do, um, extensive interviews and chats with the people on the service, they're, some of those people aren't climbing out of that hole anytime soon for no fault of their own, no fault of their own whatsoever. So we've kind of committed as an organisation that we're going to continue with the emergency food support service, especially as a lot of the other community groups that started emergency food support services have had to stop them, understandably, and go back to their previous core provision. So yeah, we're really committed to continuing with both the meals and the cookery school because, you know, it's, it's all very well working in, in health and inspiring people to eat more healthily, but if people are turning up and they're in crisis and what they really need is consistent food, the lesson is actually the wrong place for them at that moment in their life. It's, it's not the right moment. But what's really beautiful is we do have people that get meals from us for say, three or four months, stop, get a job, have whatever crisis has happened has been surmounted, and then they pop up as a volunteer or they pop up in a class and, you know, we've kind of gone on a whole journey with them, which is really lovely to see because I think there's this awful perception that's completely inaccurate of like, um, you know, that terrible like benefits scrounger kind of nonsense, which is just such a load of twaddle. Um, because people don't want free food. They want to choose their own food. They want jurisdiction over their food. The idea that, you know, you have to like fill in 55 million forms, bend over backwards, give your inside leg measurements, sell your firstborn to get on benefits is, is just such a nonsense. So we give our food to anyone that says they need it. We just need their name and address and their details and if they have any allergens and if there's any meals they'd like to see on the meal service, what would bring them joy and comfort? You know, we're interested in that. We're interested in them telling us, you know, what sort of spices would you like in your meal and do you want it really hot or do you want it mild? That's what we're interested in because people wouldn't be asking for support unless they need it. But, um, you know, I know many people that have had to navigate the benefit system and it, it really drags you through, um, an immense experience of indignity. And if you're suffering from anxiety and depression, there is nothing that will trigger it more than having to navigate that benefit system. Um, so it's, it's a tricky one really when, when we talk about free food and, and benefits and money and all that kind of thing. But that, that's why we approach our service in very much a way of solidarity where these are our fellow community members and they need food and we're in a good position right now, so we're going to cook the food that they, that they want. And then hopefully they'll, you know, it'll help them get out of the current hole they're in now. We've had a number of families that say because we get these meals, we now have the space in our heads, we've stopped surviving to try and work out what the future will bring for us. How can we get out of this current situation? Where, you know, what's the next step for our family? Because I'm not just trying to survive. The meals have taken away that, that initial, you know, crisis point where they didn't know what everyone was going to eat in the house. So, yeah, food solidarity and food justice is, is completely crucial if you want to help people get out of their, of their current moments of crisis. But in an ideal world, there would just be some sort of financial mechanism to help people with that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it, everything you've just said is just so important that security blanket of food being the stepping stone for someone themselves climbing out of a situation that is in no way their fault. Uh, and then coming back as a volunteer, I mean, that is such a beautiful idea and, uh, scenario that you've experienced time and time again. And that's why, you know, this is the whole reason why we're doing this podcast. It's so we can support that and we can grow that in that community, but also inspire other people in their own communities where they can start their own as needed service and their own community kitchen because the one thing that has frustrated me about seeing the incredible work of your volunteers and Made in Hackney is, why aren't there more? Why aren't there more of these? Because there's such a need up and down the country.
Sarah: I can tell you why there isn't more.
Dr Rupy: Go on, tell me. Go on. Go on, Sarah.
Sarah: It's exhausting. And, um, it is exhausting. It is exhausting. And I mean, it's, it is the ultimate privilege to do this sort of work and get paid. So I'm not complaining. I get paid, I get a salary. I'm not a volunteer. Some people bizarrely think I volunteer full time and I'm like, how, how would that work unless I was from the Sainsbury's family or something? I don't know. But, but, um, you know, so I get paid. There's plenty of people that do community work that don't get paid. They do it just entirely as a, as a volunteer. And massive props to those organisations and collectives that do that. But, um, the last 10 years of running Made in Hackney, co-running Made in Hackney, it feels like you're on a treadmill on the steepest incline setting and some horrible person has removed the stop button and the slow down function and you're just like, running because trying to get funding for your project is such a challenge. It's a, it's a huge challenge because there's so many worthy causes, there's so much need that funders are just overwhelmed with applicants. Um, and also quite a lot of funders are operating from quite an old school model of thought and an old school model of charity where it reflects more this sort of Victorian era of kind of, that kind of sense of charity being like the poor and unfortunate begging for money and you're really lucky if they give you some cash. And the whole dynamic between funder and charity on many occasions makes me feel very uncomfortable. The questions that are asked, the power they hold, the comments they make on your project without them even understanding it. The, the charity dynamic is, um, really not very progressive. There's a few funders that have taken feedback on this and tried to change. People can submit video applications and, you know, some funders are trying to just visit projects and see the work and fund them. Brilliant. But most funders expect some sort of 30 page dossier, you know, on your work and why it works and it's all written in Umpa Lumpa language, funder language that you have to learn to navigate. And, um, it's exhausting. Um, so that, that's, you know, probably why there's not more kitchens or there are kitchens, but they've not managed to sort of scale and grow and build a team and secure a venue because, um, you know, it's, it's completely exhausting. And interestingly, my transferable skills as a journalist in the early days really helped because I was at this unfair advantage of A, being white and all the advantages that rewards me with when it comes to asking for money and meeting people and access and that kind of thing. And B, I could navigate those forms because I was a journalist. So I could read their really helpful 50 page guide on how to answer an application. Thank you, that's succinct and useful. Um, and, and then interpret that into the funding form. I mean, after about four years of it, I felt like, you know, a piece of my soul had died. But, and thankfully, I have amazing support now doing those and I'm not the chief drum banger of those forms because I think you only have a few years of gas in you doing those forms before, before, you know, you, you kind of have really had your fill. And we've also been experimenting with really trying to generate our own income so that we're not reliant on funders. But then that leads you to the challenge of space. And to make classes, to make food experiences economically viable, to sell tickets, you really need big space. You really need to be selling lots of tickets. And we've always been blessed with beautiful but small space. And even our gorgeous new community cookery school, which is an absolute pearl, it's beautiful and people have such a mental health boost when they come to our cookery school. They sit in a glass conservatory and overlook the park and, oh, it's just lush, Rupy. I can't wait for you to come and visit. It's still small. It's still really small. So you can't run like a big team building event for say 50 people. So these kind of, um, being on that treadmill, that funding treadmill of both trying to deliver to the community, secure funding, generate income streams, uh, generate donors, oh, it's, it's, um, a massive piece of work. And if you look at a lot of food charities that are really big, if you really drill down to who their founders are and who set them up, they often come from wealth, they come from wealthy families, um, wealthy connected families. And so their access to wealth and to space is so much easier. You know, they can just basically use the contacts in their phone. But for other charities, smaller charities like Made in Hackney or other groups, we're not swimming around in those pools. So we have to really start from the beginning when it comes to raising finances and and raising funds. And I know I'm already way ahead of other people just because of certain privileges I have. So other people that maybe aren't white or didn't go to uni or can't read a 70 page guide on fundraising, but their core charitable work is awesome, they're still struggling against all that as well. So, yeah, that is the long explanation as to why there probably aren't more community cookery schools. But it also requires joined up thinking, doesn't it?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. It definitely requires a lot more support on someone in a grant funding body to really appreciate the actual net benefit to society that a smaller charity can provide as well as that personal connection that you clearly have. Um, and I think, you know, looking at other sources of funding like crowdfunding, fantastic. You've been super successful with that thus far and that's why we're on the podcast talking about it and I've already put a shout out at the intro and I want to try and weave that in as many times as possible because hopefully they can really sense your genuine passion as well as something that is imbued throughout the whole organisation through the volunteers to the people who work full time. Um, at the same time, I don't want to dissuade anyone from wanting to start their own Made in Hackney or their own sort of charitable. Exactly, because like I almost think that your experience could be written down into a playbook, uh, for other people to, to pick up and be like, you know what, I, I have that passion. I'm, I've been inspired by listening to this and I really want to do it against all the odds. I mean, from my own limited experience of starting a nonprofit, it was hard, you know, like and and trying to get, uh, funding and trying to, uh, sell the vision to people and get them to work and volunteer their time. You know, it's, it's a tough uphill struggle. But if you can remember the vision and remember the why as to why you're doing that, that, um, that project, whatever it might be, that is the fuel that is limitless and that will just keep you going. You just have to keep on reminding yourself of that.
Sarah: Absolutely. And, and, you know, people should and we would love to be in a position to not so much mentor because that implies like we know everything and people don't, but share our experiences of the last 10 years. And this is a piece of work we've actually tried to get funded a few times and and failed to, um, where we would like, yeah, let's just keep it real here. We just failed to get funding for that. Um, we, we would really like to create a bit of a manual, a toolkit, so that other people can, um, get to where we are now, but much quicker because, you know, the, the world needs to be eating more plants today, not in 20 years time. We haven't got another 10 years for people to build their Made in Cardiffs, their Made in, we haven't got 10 years. They need to be where we are now in two years, tops. So we are desperate to, um, have the capacity and funds to create some sort of toolkit, manual, uh, mentoring sessions, workshops, energy exchanges, where our experience can be shared to sort of speed up other people's journeys. And we'd love that to also be global because we actually get a lot of inquiries from people saying, hi, I'm, I'm based in Argentina, we want to start a vegan kitchen. We can only find yours as a community cookery school that, you know, worked with quite mainstream organisations. Can you mentor us or can you share? We had an email from Kenya the other day, one from Japan the other day. And we would love to do that. So yeah, that's hopefully on the horizon, um, for 2022 as we enter our 10th year. That would be the perfect time to do that. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, totally, totally. And how is your crowdfunder, uh, going at this point? Because you're right in the middle of it. And when this comes out, it will still be live as well. So people can click on the first link on the podcast show notes for the crowdfunder, see your wonderful video, which is very well edited and, uh, and curated, I must say. Um, how is it, how is it going?
Sarah: The beautiful Didge did us proud with that video. Um, the crowdfunding campaign is going well, but like with any crowdfunding campaign, you never know how the story is going to unfold. So we've had a good opening chapter and who knows what's coming. So the aim is to raise 150k in, um, six weeks because that is the exact amount of money that it costs us to run our community meal service in 2022. So that's the food support service, the food access service. So, um, it's a, it's a large sum, but people were like, tell the truth, Sarah, that's what it costs for the year and that's what you need. So just go for it. So we have done. We've never raised such a larger sum of money before from the general public. The most we've raised is 70. So it's double and then a bit more. So, um, yeah, we really, what we really need is people coming together to support it, people's workplaces. Can you do a staff fundraiser? Can your company donate 500 pounds or 1,000 pounds? Would you like to come and do corporate volunteering with us? You know, we really hope that do watch the video because it's very inspiring. We really hope once you've watched that, that you'll think, right, I'm in, I'm all in. Let's see what we can do to fundraise because it's in the name, crowdfunding. We need the crowd. We need the crowd and you guys listening are that crowd.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's brilliant. And I, I'll be, um, donating the proceeds from this podcast episode to the crowdfunder as well. Um, so that will give you a little bit of a boost.
Sarah: Thanks, Rupy.
Dr Rupy: No, of course not. It's my pleasure to have you on here and you've given me so much support over the last few years as well. So any, any money that we make from sponsors from this is going to go straight into, uh, that crowdfunder as well on behalf of the listeners too. So, uh, but you can add to the tally. If you are listening to this, you can still add to the tally.
Sarah: Yes, please add to the tally. Please add.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Fab. Sarah, thank you so much. I can't wait till, uh, the next class and I can't wait to see the new kitchen as well. Super exciting.
Sarah: It's lovely. It's, it's waiting for you. We have a pan with your name on it, Rupy.
Dr Rupy: I'll take it. That's brilliant.
