Dr Rupy: Ravinder, so thank you so much for coming into the studio today.
Ravinder Bogal: Total pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Dr Rupy: It is our pleasure to have you, to host you, and for the wonderful lunch that you cooked me and the team.
Ravinder Bogal: It was very comforting, wasn't it?
Dr Rupy: Really comforting. I love it. I want to talk to you about obviously Comfort and Joy. I want to talk about how you infuse love into your recipes and what the inspiration behind them are. And we were just talking before I cut us off because you were talking about the medicinal sort of effects of food and how that sort of maternal influence is somewhat lost because of the lack of cooking skills that we have and the lack of sort of time we actually put into our kitchen. So I wonder where we should kick off in terms of.
Ravinder Bogal: I mean, I think we can talk about the maternal kitchen, right?
Dr Rupy: Let's talk about that.
Ravinder Bogal: Because that is something, that really has been one of my philosophies at the restaurant, at home. It's like this incredible generational knowledge, intergenerational knowledge that gets passed down from one woman to another. And how we're sort of losing touch with it, but I really wanted to celebrate that because these women are so marginalised, they don't get the platform that I have had the privilege to have. And I really, they have been my greatest teachers, they have been my greatest gurus. I've learned and gleaned so much knowledge and wisdom from not even them teaching me, just spending time in their kitchens, it's like osmosis. You know, they're kind of, they know how to, what sequence spices go into, you know, ghee or fat or whatever they were using. And an intuition for when things are cooked, when they need a little bit more cooking. And you know, for for for my grandmother, for example, she never went to the pharmacy or the doctor. The kitchen was prescriptive for her. So her all her prescriptions came from the spice cupboard. And we're losing so much of that knowledge and it's something that I'm always really, really keen to kind of bring back and and celebrate. But I think essentially the maternal kitchen, the intent is what is really important. It's like what intention are you cooking with? And it's the intention to nurture, to nourish, to look after, to show love. Food was their love language. You know, my mother wasn't this kind of woman who hugged you or kissed you all the time. Her love language was food.
Dr Rupy: I love that. It's so interesting.
Ravinder Bogal: And and I think potentially, although I'm quite a cuddly person, I think my my love language is also definitely food. It's how I show people that I care for them. You know, and spending time cooking something for someone is is just a really wonderful way of showing love for that person.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. How do we reignite that sort of kitchen, that maternal kitchen? How do we re sort of educate ourselves about the beauty of spices, not just from a flavour point of view, but from a medicinal point of view, a self-care point of view? I know you do some wonderful stuff at the restaurant where you have brunches, weekends, you invite speakers. I still haven't been to one of those. I need to make sure that I'm I'm I'm at the ready for some of those tickets and stuff. But I I'm interested in how like you are approaching this this issue and this problem and and what do you think we should be leaning into?
Ravinder Bogal: Well, part of it for me has been that that is the philosophy in the restaurant. So when I when I teach my team to cook, it's often in that very, in the same way that my mother taught me to cook, that very kind of maternal way of doing things, teaching them about produce, teaching them about, you know, my mother didn't waste anything. So that is a big part of what we do. And I think that one of the things that I often talk about is where our food comes from and the people who grow it for us or who make it for us, amazing producers. We use, you know, incredible producers at the restaurant. And for me, there's this sort of invisible humanity. Every time that we sit down to eat a meal, there is a person present at the table that you can't see, but that is the person who planted the seed, who nurtured it, who watered it, who plucked it out of the ground, stored it, drove it to cargo. There's this incredible chain of humanity behind everything we eat. And often, particularly when our produce is coming from abroad, there's there's a level of sacrifice because I've I've been to those farms. I've seen how those people will give us the best of what they have and then keep the second best for themselves. And if you know that and you're present to that, you really don't waste food. You're very careful in the way that you cook. You really respect that that whatever it is, a watermelon or a potato or whatever it is, you're very aware of of the work that has gone into that. And I think that's what my my grandparents, you know, I grew up in Kenya on this incredible allotment, a shamba that my grandfather had, and just watching this very deep respect, love, awe, a very deep spiritual relationship that he had with the land. And it's only now, and actually it was during lockdown that I really started thinking about it. And you know, why was he so attached to this plot of land? You know, it was just, it wasn't anything spectacular. It was like a few yards of of soil. And yet he spent so much of his time there. And I think for someone who had come from so little, to have a patch of soil that was so beautiful, you know, he grew organically, there was weren't any fertilizers put down. It was all very natural. And it was so benevolent and that gratitude that he had was because he'd known scarcity. And I think we are so lucky, we get everything all year round, anytime we want it, you know, delivered in five seconds if we want it. But it wasn't always like that. And I think we need to re-engage with that idea that food is actually precious, that it's a blessing that we have it, that we should be grateful for what we have and really learn to take care of what we have. And when we're cooking to really engage with it, to that interplay between you and the ingredient is so important. And like I was saying earlier when we were cooking together, in these times that we're living through where we seem to have such little time, first of all, you know, the luxury of time, I find that there's such mindfulness when you're in the the kitchen. It's I I love being in my home kitchen. I cook at the restaurant, but actually my favourite thing is to cook at home because there's silence. It's about me, the ingredient, the pan, and I find that really healing and meditative in itself. Understanding and being grateful for all these wonderful ingredients that you have, not taking them for granted, not wasting things. And then also in these times that we're living through where we have such a lot lack of control about what's going on in the world, politically or anything, to be as show a kind of activism in what we choose to cook, who we support with the money that we have, when we our buying choices are so incredibly powerful. Are you going to support the industrial, you know, horrid, you know, industry that food comes through, or are you going to, you know, support a local farmer or your local, you know, supermarket or, you know, corner shop or, you know, that in in itself is an activism. But then what you decide to put your into your food is also a form of, you know, controlling your own kind of health and destiny. And I think that is is really important. And that's why I think people who are afraid of the kitchen should embrace it because I think they would find that meditation and, you know, things bubbling away is is very relaxing and and yeah, having a choice.
Dr Rupy: I love that idea of leaning into the scarcity mindset and also cooking and choosing where you spend your pounds, dollars, euros as a form of activism as well, as a form of shaping your food landscape. And I think this is something that we've talked about previously on the podcast where, you know, even though organic food isn't always pesticide free, even though organic food doesn't always have extra nutrients in it, or a a a noticeable difference in flavour, you are choosing a food landscape that is a lot more sustainable, that is a lot less polluted. And if you can lean into that and afford to to buy more organic produce, you are essentially on a march as part of a sort of movement towards a more sustainable and flourishing system.
Ravinder Bogal: Completely. But it's not even just about, you know, supporting organic farmers per se, or buying more expensive produce, but if you can support your local like corner shop, for example, that's a wonderful thing. You're building a community, you're helping your neighbourhood and your community thrive. That's a wonderful, powerful thing.
Dr Rupy: I often think that it's a bit of a glib example, but like, you know, when people choose to purchase a coffee from like a major franchise. I'm always thinking like, there's a really good independent coffee store that know exactly who they're growing from, have perhaps even roasted the beans themselves, that is right next door selling the coffee at a very, very similar price point. Yet you choose to go for like, and I always boggles my my mind. I don't understand why because I'm maybe it's because I'm a bit of a coffee snob as well and I, you know, I choose my beans and I'm very, very sort of precious about the types of beans and the amount of ratio to brewing time, all the rest of it. But like, I just can't get my head around why people choose the franchise over it. Because it is a form of activism as well. You're supporting a local store.
Ravinder Bogal: Well, I mean, for for for us, for our business model at Jikoni, our ideal when we started the business was how can every single line of our P&L be doing something positive and good? And you know, whether it's who we're buying from, whether it's, you know, our our refuse, you know, where is the refuse going? Is it going into landfill or are we choosing a company who's disposing of it correctly, who's who's, you know, composting food waste, that kind of thing. Um, who who do we support in terms of where is our energy coming from? Who does our banking? Is it a green bank who's going to the all these things. The last how do we empower our team? How do we empower our community through our spend? And I think restaurants are so powerful and we spend so much money, right? There's so much money going out. And if you can do it in a way that, you know, every single pound that's spent in the restaurant or comes out of the restaurant is is positive, then you have something that feels sustainable, that feels like it's part of a community, that feels like it's a beacon of a community, which is what restaurants I think should be. They should, I feel like when you have restaurants or businesses that are doing really good things in a in a neighbourhood, it spreads to the community.
Dr Rupy: Totally, totally. A lot of people who may be restaurant owners themselves or people who understand the pressures on restaurants, particularly right now, might listen to that or watch that and be like, well, how on earth are you able to make those right choices that are activist choices in themselves and still turn a profit? Because it is really, really hard for you guys.
Ravinder Bogal: I mean, margins are so thin in hospitality, but I think it's the thing that I'm one of the things I'm most proud of is that we have shown that you can be carbon neutral, you can be buying from a biodynamic farm and you can still be turning a profit as a business. Maybe not as huge a profit as people who who, you know, don't make these choices, but it's important and there's longevity and we feel that what we're putting out, you know, into the world is is good. It it just feels good. It's a better way of doing business for me. It's like, what's the point of just doing business for business' sake and just for the bottom line, you know, if you have purpose, it's it's far more important. And I think for team and for culture, particularly in in times where, you know, hospitality is traditionally been a very transient industry, you know, people come, they go. We're really lucky because we've held on to really brilliant people for, you know, six of the seven, we've been open seven years and for six years, 13 of us have worked together. And that's incredible. And I think it's because we all feel a similar sense of purpose. We all believe in the power of positive business and what we're trying to do and achieve. And like I said to you earlier, I, you know, I haven't ever wanted a Michelin star or that's not been my purpose, that's not been my aim. My aim is simply to make people feel happy, to make people feel content, to make them feel looked after. And you know, the word restaurant comes from the French word to restore. And I always say that if you're not restoring people when they come through your doors, you're just not doing your job correctly.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I love that. I didn't know that about the word restaurant.
Ravinder Bogal: Completely. And I, you know, restaurants are, you have such, it's such a privilege and a joy because you have two, two and a half hours with a stranger and you have that time to transform someone's day, week, month, whatever it is. You don't know what's happening in their personal life, but when they come in, you have that opportunity to engage with them and serve them something that makes them feel good, happy, healthy, whatever it is, you know, looked after. And that I feel is a real privilege. And I always say to my team, you know, it is about what can you give of yourself that doesn't appear on the check at the end of the day. And that is where true service and true hospitality comes in. You know, that idea of seva, both Sikhs, you know, to be able to give service to someone is a really beautiful thing and not to charge them for the smile or that extra care or that extra attention to detail or remembering which wine that they loved last time that they came in and surprising them with a glass of it. All those little touches are, you know, a pleasure for us to do.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I love the sort of like, uh, intertwinement there with seva, which is this concept within Sikhism of always delivering service and and having a portion of your your day or even your paycheck of like how you're supporting your communities. I want to go into a bit more detail on your your background that you alluded to a little bit earlier because you were born in Kenya.
Ravinder Bogal: That's right.
Dr Rupy: And your early influences appear to come from your family who had this, you know, scarce pot of land and there was a a real sort of appreciation for growing and. How how did your your background influence the style of cooking that you are known for, which is this no borders cooking?
Ravinder Bogal: Um, well, I think that that really came from becoming an immigrant. So I came to this country when I was seven years old, and it was a real shock to my system because no one had really told me that we were going to be moving here. And I had a very privileged upbringing in Kenya, you know, this beautiful house and land and, you know, an ever blue sky and, you know, it was wonderful. And then when we came here, it was like we were living in a a flat above a shop with no central heating, no carpets. Like we were literally starting from scratch. And it was it was November and it was freezing and I was like seven years old and, you know, you you feel completely alienated and discombobulated from, you know, because you just don't know what's going on. And I found safety and reassurance in kitchen, in the kitchen. And I think there is something when you're an immigrant of that steady ticking of meal times because it's all so overwhelming. So if you can get through breakfast, if you can get through lunch and you can get through dinner, you've got through your day. And then tomorrow is another day. And that is how you kind of settle one meal at a time. And I think that's why cooking is so important for me. And the kitchen also becomes then a portal for you to connect with your ancestry, your past. And for me, you know, whenever I was feeling lonely or sad or feeling alienated, being in the kitchen reminded me of my grandmother who we'd left behind, reminded me of Kenya, you know, those ingredients, those smells that I was used to. But the no borders thing happened because I, you know, I'm I'm many things. I'm I'm East African, Indian, I'm British. I am also the product of all those really warm, wonderful immigrant communities that I grew up around, whether it was our Polish neighbours or the lovely people in the local Turkish shop. And when you're growing up around all these influences, they feed naturally into your your own kind of culinary heritage. And I suppose it's a reconciliation of your past and your present. And when that comes together, like these seemingly really disparate kind of, um, influences, they're so revelatory and they're so incredible. And particularly when it comes to food, that mixing of influences creates something new. And I think that is what immigrant food is about. It comes from people who have the ache for what they've left behind, but then the wonder of their new landscape. It comes from those feelings where you come to a new landscape and you know nothing and everything seems so barren because you you haven't got the things you were used to, you know, there are no more mango trees in the garden anymore. But then, you know, suddenly what what was barren becomes really abundant because you find new ingredients that can mimic those things or remind you of those things. So a classic example is, you know, like mango achar, we used to make mango achar every summer in in Kenya. And of course, over here, you you don't get mangoes are not cheap, you know, particularly when they're out of season.
Dr Rupy: Just for our listeners, can you explain what a mango achar actually is?
Ravinder Bogal: So achar is basically a pickle. So it's a preserve. Um, so, you know, we'd have lime pickle or like, you know, uh, carrot pickle or whatever it was. But the mango was really special. And then, you know, I remember my mom making it, um, in in England and what she was doing was using Bramley apples because they have the same sharpness as a raw mango would. And a similar texture. And then but obviously much, much cheaper to do. So but you get that same kind of tanginess and deliciousness that you would with a raw mango.
Dr Rupy: That's so interesting. I wouldn't have ever made that connection, but I guess it comes out of that scarcity mindset coming back to something you you mentioned earlier about like you just use what you have at your disposal.
Ravinder Bogal: Yeah, absolutely. And this is what I mean about maternal cooks. They have this incredible instinct. They just know somehow. They have this superpower of knowing what's going to work. And I just think it comes from years and years of kind of genetic wisdom that's just kind of passed down and it's just stored somewhere.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And I love that sort of uh, analogy of it being osmosis. It sort of just kind of filters through, you know, just by being close to the the source of influence. And you know, we were talking about no borders cooking. We just made a cacio e pepe, kale, orzo soup, you know, and it's just, it's just with chickpeas. And, you know, I I don't think my brain would have conjured something as vastly different as those and it just works. And I guess, you know, your background of being uh, from from East Africa, Indian, British, sort of allows you a new lens or or a novel way of looking at ingredients and and plus, you know, the the examples that you just talked about with the Bramley apple pickle.
Ravinder Bogal: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, you know, travel as well really feeds my mind. I love travelling. The first thing I always do when I'm anywhere, when I'm abroad is I go to a local market or a supermarket and I'm fascinated with ingredients and collecting ingredients from around the world and going into people's kitchens. I mean, the best food you get is in people's houses, right? So if you can make friends with people, um, you know, it's wonderful. You go into their kitchens and and you learn something and I think food is a really wonderful way to sort of get people's stories because when you sit down with food, suddenly people just open up to you and you hear all their and I really respect Claudia Roden for that. You know, she would just kind of take off, go into people's kitchens and then these women would just a share their recipes, but be tell her their stories, which I think is so wonderful. So that I think that's what I really enjoy about food, that it's not always just about the greediness of eating it, but it's about the stories that come with it, the conversations.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is something that, you know, particularly here at the Doctor's Kitchen, we're really mindful of that you can't reduce food to the sum of its nutrients and the sum of like what it can do in the human body and that that's all you think of. You've really got to think about it through the lens of what joy does it bring you? What comfort does it bring you? What love is it expressing to you?
Ravinder Bogal: And like I was saying, you know, comfort food means different things to different people. And I think in the traditional sense, it might mean, you know, a big vat of mac and cheese or a pie or whatever. And there's nothing wrong with that. But for me, comfort food and food that brings you joy is the food that you never ever get bored of eating, that you could eat on repeat all the time. You know, things like, things that make you feel well, things that make you feel nurtured and nourished, things that make you feel content, things that obviously bring you joy. Um, you know, that for me is comfort food. So for me, comfort food could also be a really wonderful salad that has an amazing dressing or a dal that feels really wholesome and that makes you feel well. I mean, dal is such a wonderful thing and there are so many different things you can do with lentils, right? It they're never boring. I Madhur Jaffrey called dal LSD, right? Lifesaving dal because a it's really affordable, but also you can do so much with it. And whether you're a prince or a pauper, everyone in India eats dal, right? And um, there are just so many things you can do with it. You never get bored of it because you can make it in so many different ways. Um, and I I love it and it always brings me a sense of comfort. It brings me nostalgia as well because I always think about my mom when I make dal. And it brings me sheer joy.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to do a quick fire round with you actually, as we bring this to a close. I want to know a couple of things that are you always have in your pantry, fridge and freezer. Are you ready? I haven't prepped you in any of these things. So in your pantry, what are your, I know you've got probably got like an expansive pantry. What is your, what is the thing that you always need to have in your pantry to cook yourself comforting and joyful food?
Ravinder Bogal: Condiments.
Dr Rupy: Condiments, okay.
Ravinder Bogal: Oh my god, I'm like the condiment queen. Pickles, chutneys, jams, ketchups, um, you know, pickled vegetables, chili oils. I'm obsessed. I think.
Dr Rupy: I love chili oil.
Ravinder Bogal: I love chili oils so much. I love Poon's chili oil. Um, I love the, what's the other brand at the moment? They do.
Dr Rupy: Lee Kum Kee, is that the.
Ravinder Bogal: That's that's a traditional brand, but there's another one. I can't remember what it's called now, but they do like a cashew one, which is just.
Dr Rupy: Oh, I know the one you mean.
Ravinder Bogal: Unbelievable.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I think there's actually an Irish brand. Um, I think it's called Masu or something.
Ravinder Bogal: That's the one. Yeah, yeah. I love those. But I love Poon's and I yeah, and I Lee Kum Kee, the crispy chili oil. Oh my god. It's so good.
Dr Rupy: The crispy chili oil is a go-to for me.
Ravinder Bogal: So good. So I think for me, and I I love how pickles and and these kinds of things, they bring lightness and and sort of texture and interest. So you could have a really, you know, simple broth and then you put chili oil on it and it just, you know, completely or you have a really simple dal and then you have an achar or a pickle and it just completely changes it.
Dr Rupy: Totally. Yeah. Actually, as a sidebar to that, what is like, if people get really scared about sort of making their own krauts, ferments, you know, kefirs, all that kind of stuff. For for someone who wants to get into pickling, what would you say is a very basic recipe or basic sort of format that anyone could do?
Ravinder Bogal: Well, there is a whole chapter in Comfort and Joy. But I would say like one of my favourite things to do is, um, when things are in season, buy them. And, um, I do a really simple pickled vegetable. So you're basically making a brine, you know, salt, um, and water and vinegar, like just a white wine vinegar, or you could use apple cider if you wanted to. Bring it up to the boil. You put in the kind of aromatics that you like. You don't even have to, but I always crush a whole like, you know, smash a clove of garlic, a chili, coriander seeds, black peppercorns, maybe a couple of cloves, some peppercorns in there. I think I said that already. That goes into that that brine. And then you slice up your vegetables and I love turnips, um, beetroots, um, you know, kind of golden because if you use purple beetroot, you're going to colour the whole thing. Cauliflower, carrots, um, apples, pears, you know, the really sort of crisp raw pears almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, because they fall off the trees sometimes. It's a wonderful way of just using them up. And get them packed into a jar in with your brine while it's still warm and seal up your jar and you've got that for three, four weeks and you're just eating these like lovely pickled vegetables. And I have them as a snack, you know, with a with a little drink before dinner. Um, I'll have them, you know, through my salads. They're just wonderful.
Dr Rupy: I love it. I've got this image of you having like a little aperitif with like a little snack with some of your.
Ravinder Bogal: My cocktail snacks. I'll take my pickles. Absolutely. Got me down.
Dr Rupy: That's brilliant. Okay, great. So I snuck in another one there. So a pickles recipe, uh, and your pantry. What what's always in your freezer?
Ravinder Bogal: In my freezer, frozen vegetables. I really rate them. I think there's some really fantastic ones. I love, for example, spinach, really good. You know, you just want to like make a sauce or something and you just put your, you know, spinach through it. Um, I love those kind of, um, chopped up vegetables, frozen peas. Again, just bulking up things. I love to make soups, kitcharis, that kind of thing, dals. And then I'll often put in handfuls of like vegetables because then you're just, even things like rice, you know, you make a simple rice and just to put some green peas through it and sweet corn. I love, um, frozen sweet corn.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got all those veggies in my freezer. That's great. Um, and what's in your fridge? What what do you always have in your fridge? And it can be something unusual. It can be something very basic, whatever.
Ravinder Bogal: Cheese.
Dr Rupy: Cheese. Okay. I go to cheese. Let's go through a section.
Ravinder Bogal: Do you know what? I'm really spoiled because, um, I I work right round the corner from La Fromagerie, which is.
Dr Rupy: Oh, yes, you do. Yes, on the same road.
Ravinder Bogal: Just heaven. It's so good. And Patricia who runs it is like my idol. I want to be her when I grow up. She's just incredible. She's a businesswoman who's run her business in Marylebone for over 35 years. She was one of the first because Marylebone was a little bit of a kind of a dry area and then she came in and the Conran shop came in. And then everybody followed. And so she really is, I mean, just the most extraordinary woman. She's a walking encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to, um, food with provenance. Every single item she has in her shop, so over, you know, 200 products or whatever, she knows each producer by name and she knows their stories and she will tell you and and then when you go into the cheese room, it is like heaven. And they make this brie, the truffle brie. It is insane. Um, and it's like my favourite, favourite thing. I always have lots and I love a sharp cheddar. Do you know what I love eating? I love eating, um, I make dal, like black dal makhni. And I have it with a toasted cheese dippy sandwich. It's the best thing. And actually, one day while I was eating this like dippy cheesy toasty thing with my bowl of dal, I was like, this is so good. And it ended up me being being the inspiration for me inventing our dal makhni and Montgomery cheddar croquetas. So we do this incredible croqueta which we serve with a carrot achar. And it's this kind of combination of like the Spanish tradition of making croquetas. So like a bechamel, but then with black, smoky black dal and Montgomery cheddar and it is heaven.
Dr Rupy: This is why I want everyone to go to your restaurant because every time I go, and I go often, I'm just sort of blown away by the combination. I'm just sat there.
Ravinder Bogal: You love the mango thali.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I love. I love it. I'm just sat there. I'm like, how on earth did somebody conjure this up? This is like insane. This is like beyond, you know, what I could ever do in the kitchen. It's just like, I'm just, I'm so privileged to have had this conversation where I can tap into a bit of your ingenuity and understand a bit about your background and what the influences are because you're, um, yeah, you're just, you're a genius and it's and it's wonderful to have been able to cook with you as well.
Ravinder Bogal: You're so kind. You're so kind. I just love feeding people. I'm such a Punjabi. I'm just like, eat, eat, eat.
Dr Rupy: I love it. I love it.
