Dr Rupy: In order to have maximum wellbeing, it's not enough to sleep, eat well and exercise. You also need to have a purpose, including one that transcends yourself. We're going to be exploring this today with my good friend Dr Tara Swart, neuroscientist and Oxford University trained medical doctor.
Dr Rupy: This conversation is so important for me personally because I constantly navigate the complex relationship between two parts of my brain. There's the rational, data-driven, sceptical side that is unwilling to accept anything without complete proof, and then there's the spiritual side that is inexplicably drawn to certain things and leans into a belief that we are in some way connected to the wider universe in ways that we cannot explain. Tara and I have known each other for a few years, as you can tell on this podcast, and we're really quite close. She unfortunately lost her partner a few years ago to cancer, which she describes in detail in her latest book, Signs. But after his death, she began to experience what she intuitively believed were communications from her partner, highly improbable coincidences, chance happenings and events that were simply impossible to ignore. And at first, this actually led her down a path of questioning her mental state as a psychiatrist. But then using her experience as a neuroscientist and researcher, she began to explore the science of consciousness and explore the possibility of trusting her instincts and intuition of what she believes to be true. And according to Tara, these strange nudges and connections with people who have died are not random, and it's actually time we took them seriously. We explore what we've lost in our modern lives, how our brain filters reality and what we might be missing, as well as how to sharpen your intuition so you can spot signs around you, finding purpose, meaning and connection in your own life. We explore these ancient practices, drumming, humming, vows of silence, as well as spending as much time in nature to connect with the wider universe and tap into our instincts to live more enriched lives. We also explore the science of terminal lucidity, near-death experiences, and the art of noticing and what that can teach us about life after death. Tara's book is already a Sunday Times and New York Times bestseller, and it's one of the best reads that I've personally had the enjoyment of experiencing, both listening to it and reading the pages, and I highly recommend you go and check it out too.
Dr Rupy: So we were just talking before we started recording about how we want this podcast to be like one of our walk and talks. So me and you have known each other for a number of years.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: It feels like longer than COVID, which is five years ago at the time of this recording, but we're very close. I regard you as one of my my close friends, a mentor. I've learned so much from you and I really want to, I want the audience to sort of get that sort of knowledge that I, we glean from each other from one of those talks, walks. But to make this conversation interesting and relevant for different audiences, we're going to meet two people today. One is Rational Rupy, who's the science sort of evidence-based guy who's, nutritional medicine masters, always points at the evidence and randomised control trials. And we're going to meet Woopy. So Woopy leans into his woo-woo side and like actually, and this is where I want you to like help me be a lot more brave and open and truthful with the audience because I definitely believe in a higher order where we're connected to the universe in ways that modern science can't explain today. Does that sound all right?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, so what I want to say is, I see Rational Rupy on Instagram, but that's not the person I know.
Dr Rupy: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: So yeah, very happy to go there.
Dr Rupy: 100%. Great. I want to start with something that really touched me when I was listening to your book and I remember I had to pull over the car and write this down as you said it in your book. And the quote is this: If you see everything through a scientific lens, you're not experiencing all that life has to offer. The need for spirituality is seen across cultures and has been for millennia. We have evolved to be spiritual beings and there is a psychological need that is being denied if we allow our rationality to close off belief. I thought we could start by expanding on this concept.
Dr Tara Swart: Wow, like even hearing that I wrote that and read that out is wild. It's beautiful.
Dr Rupy: It really did touch me. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, yeah, so, you know, I think, you know, one of the things that we understand about each other is that when you're trained as a doctor, it it like takes over your life. Like everything is about, you know, you hang out with doctors, you have the same conversations. Um, and so maybe I could start with some evidence for Rational Rupy. So you know about the biopsychosocial model of healthcare, right? So that's about the physicality, the mentality and like what's around you socially. Like we have to always ask people like, who do you have to care for you and and that kind of thing. But there's papers from about 10 years ago now that talk about the biopsychosocial spiritual model of healthcare, particularly in care of the elderly and end of life. But it should be everything, obviously, because someone's beliefs, um, how can those be excluded from how you care about someone, either as a doctor or as a person? And it's just not talked about and that's so wrong. Um, 85% of people globally identify with a religion. So, you know, again, how can that not be part of when you're caring for someone, part of what you include? I remember as a psychiatrist, when I had people from different cultures, if they had beliefs that, you know, either they wanted a shaman to pull bones out of their head or whatever it was, I always was like, as long as there's no cross-interference with the medication, please do that as well as what, but please take your medication, but please, you know, do whatever you you feel you need to. So I think honouring that's really important. And also personally, for both of us, I guess, having left medicine, you do suddenly think, what else is there? Like, who, what am I about? Like, what's important? And certainly at times of duress, like post-divorce and then post-bereavement, I've absolutely turned to those sort of things. And and they've they've taken me to another level. And I think when anyone has a crisis, there's a there's a a fork. And it can ruin the rest of your life. It can make you really bitter. Or it can make you, it can give you hope. It can make you a better person. It can make you kinder and less judgmental and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. So as hard as it is, I made that choice of like what I wanted to be. And so I got something to tell you that I purposely didn't tell you before the podcast.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Dr Tara Swart: It's going to be old news by the time the podcast comes out, but I found out two days ago that I'm on the Sunday Times bestseller list at number two.
Dr Rupy: Nice.
Dr Tara Swart: And yesterday that I'm on the New York Times bestseller list as well.
Dr Rupy: No way. That's incredible. Oh my gosh. Congratulations.
Dr Tara Swart: If you think about what a career risk this book was.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: That's insane.
Dr Rupy: That is. That's amazing. Gosh, I'm so, so happy for you. That's
Dr Tara Swart: I also want to say something else, which is just so jokes. When we were in LA together in July. And I couldn't have dinner with you on the night I recorded with Stephen Bartlett.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: And I remember you were in the kitchen cooking and I was chatting to you and I said, Stephen pushed me really hard on like why I'm not dating again.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, I remember that.
Dr Tara Swart: And Rochelle said, do you have any idea how many men are going to slide into your DMs once this comes out?
Dr Rupy: And did that happen? We won't let you, we won't pry.
Dr Tara Swart: I'll tell you after.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. That's so funny.
Dr Tara Swart: So funny.
Dr Rupy: And it was, yeah, it was interesting because during that, um, that time when we were in LA together, you were saying that you you were sort of pushed to talk a bit more about the science or there was an expectation that you wanted to talk a bit more about the science.
Dr Tara Swart: That's what I felt. So I think I was just so nervous after it because obviously it was the first time I was talking about my private life. Um, no, I'm when once I saw the podcast and saw the reaction, I was like absolutely thrilled and I felt like I was like so grounded and everything. But I was just like nervous about how it might come across. Um, I also want to say another thing, which is that before I flew to LA, you texted me and said, do you want me to pick you up at the airport?
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: I think because you did I had I told you that when I land at Heathrow, I feel really sad because Robin was always there and
Dr Rupy: You told me afterwards when I offered to be Ruba.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: We've got three people here, Rational Rupy, Woopy and and Ruba.
Dr Tara Swart: Ruba was amazing. I was literally like, I can't just call you when I'm anywhere in LA and get get a lift, can I? And you're like, yeah, you can.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: And you were so upset about the fact that I wasn't data roaming.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I know. I'm like, come on, mate. It's like seven pounds a day. Hopefully you've fixed that since.
Dr Tara Swart: I did. I've got an eSIM now and everything.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow, look at you. So from the from the the woo-woo side or the and I it feels a bit dismissive calling it woo-woo, but you know, from the um the sort of instinctual side or the intuitive side, um I think if if medics listening to this or anyone listening to this who is sort of um really attracted to the idea of evidence-based medicine ruling everything, I think if you dig really deep, there are some core beliefs that you have that cannot be explained by science. There are feelings you have towards certain things. There are, you know, and whether you want to explain that through the lens of the universe guiding you or not, it's undeniable if you allow yourself to to open.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, so it started for me because in the first couple of weeks after Robin died, I had a neighbour whose partner had passed away five years previously. I'd never asked him anything about it, but because of where I was, you know, where I was mentally, I said to him, is it okay to ask you anything about grief? And he said, yes. So I said, do you think it's possible to still like keep in touch with the person that's passed away? And he got quite agitated and said, absolutely not. And then said, because if that were possible, everyone would be talking about it. And I remember even in the depths of my grief thinking, why is that the reason that it can't be true because everyone's not talking about it? And then four weeks later, so six weeks after Robin died, you know, I think I've shared this before, I got a thump to the shoulder in the middle of the night. I saw him standing next to my bed. I felt the effort of him like trying to make himself seen. And then I thought, do I tell anyone this? Um, but because it was, you know, so like shocking and overwhelming, I ended up kind of blurting it out to a neighbour. And I thought, and a different neighbour, um, I don't know if she's religious, I don't know if she's spiritual, I don't really know like, you know, what she believes. And she turned to me with this massive smile on her face and said, you are so lucky. And then she shared that she'd lost her dad a year before and she'd never had anything like that. So then I started, you know, telling a few more people. And everyone I've spoken to has had some experience of sensing a presence or, you know, having weird electrical things going on or smelling something, or getting signs. But I wasn't really getting signs, but I was desperate to get signs. Um, obviously his name was Robin and I did see a lot of robins in the garden, but I didn't, that wasn't enough for me to like know that he was still around. Um, yeah, so basically, at one point, it felt like I started seeing all these repeating numbers. And I used to call him my twin flame, which is has the number 11 or 11 11. And a lot of people say they see that on their phone and stuff. But because he was in finance, it made sense to me that he would communicate with me through numbers. He was obsessed with the Fibonacci sequence. And I just started getting all these number messages all the time. And at first it was like, not exact, not necessarily timely, but then it started like happening on like really significant anniversaries and um, I just lent into it. You know, I was just like, okay. And the more I did that, I I feel like, I don't know what happens when you die, obviously, but I feel like he also kind of learned how to do it. And then we just, it took about two and a half years where I felt like I was constantly getting messages from him. Um, and I think something else that I shared, which you'll find interesting as a doctor is that I would like talk to him in my head and I like if I asked a question, I would get a thought like so quickly, like quicker than you can think, and not necessarily what I would say. And but then I as a former psychiatrist was like, this is thought insertion. Like that's a symptom of schizophrenia.
Dr Rupy: This this is a really interesting part of your story actually, because I I think, you know, we see the the Tara today who has come to a place where you can make sense of things and you can accept things that you can't explain through the lens of traditional science and medicine. But at the time, it must have felt quite scary being a traditionally trained psychiatrist because these are a constellation of symptoms that you've recognised in other people that are signs of a mental health illness.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, I mean, I didn't have the constellation, I had the one. Um, but, you know, there were times around the first and second anniversaries where I felt so depressed for like weeks and weeks and weeks. I actually had to look in the mirror and do a mental state examination on myself and and ask myself like, am I in clinical depression? Should I go and see my GP? And I remember the one thing, question I asked myself was, do you have no enjoyment of anything, anhedonia? Um, and I thought, no, I still love my friends. I can still feel happy if something good happens. And, you know, that was the one thing that made me think like, I could carry on. Um, yeah, but I mean, I lent into it. I I felt like everything that I had lived my life by, like manifestation, visualisation, love, abundance, had just shattered. I had like, my worldview was like, I don't even know what it is anymore. I couldn't trust my own intuition. You know, feeling like you can't trust yourself is really, like that's the one thing that any human has if they don't have anything else or anyone else. So picking myself up from that, I think a lot of my friends thought, and a lot of people do this, like throw yourself back into work to like just avoid having to feel the pain. I knew I couldn't do that. I I wanted to heal fully and to do that, I knew that I had to like go to the bottom of, you know, this pit that I was in. Um, and I mean, I didn't work for three years. So I just, I just went with it and I did want signs. Um, so there's obviously a conversation around confirmation bias, but now I don't ask for specific things. I just I just see them.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, yeah, and it's it's really lovely.
Dr Rupy: For someone who's coming to this conversation completely brand new, how would you explain what a sign is versus, I don't know, a coincidence or something that your brain, as you've explained in your book and your previous book, The Source, is just paying more attention to through selective attention?
Dr Tara Swart: So I met this documentary filmmaker for a coffee to discuss doing some filming with her, which I did. And the second time I met her, I told her that my husband had passed away. And she said to me, my dad's been dead for 10 years now, and my mom says she's never been closer to him in her whole life, and she gets unmistakable signs. So I was like, well, I'm taking that phrase and I'm going to, you know, run with it and ask for it. So what I say actually, genuinely to my own friends is, if you've lost someone and you want to like try to find out if you can get communication from them, then think of, you know, a really fond memory that you've got with them or like an in-joke that only they would get and choose a symbol that represents that and make it unusual, make it something you're not going to see every day and just wait and see what happens. Um, and you know, there are so many stories in the book of of ones that I've had, but also all the case studies in the book are not in my friendship group. So my publisher literally said to me, your friendship group believes in signs, talks about signs, that's your language. You know, we talk about, we we affirm each other by saying, oh, I got goosebumps when you said that. So, you know, that's a certain group of people, obviously. So they made me get stories from people that I either don't know at all because they're like people that I know through someone or people that I'd met once, like this filmmaker whose story is in the book. Um, and and honestly, Rupy, since I've started sharing this privately, everyone has like some kind of story. And then since I've shared it publicly, my team have had thousands of emails, thousands, not hundreds. I've had thousands of DMs from people saying exactly the same thing. I had no idea that the reaction would be what it's been and how many people feel like this. And particularly, I want to say to you, how many doctors and clinical psychologists and psychotherapists have reached out to me and said, this is their belief system, but they don't talk about it because it's not acceptable in our professions.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And how how do we I'm going to bring you back to Rational Rupy here. How do we how do we marry marry this with what we understand about consciousness? Um, because you you talk really eloquently about consciousness and how it cannot be explained by the anatomy or the structure of our brains. And it's still one of these black boxes, but we sort of accept it. I don't think it's really discussed that much. Um, and and perhaps that like lends itself to a wider discussion about what we can't prove within science right now and why we should be open to this this idea of signs and and everything else.
Dr Tara Swart: I think there's two things here and I just want to pick up on something that you said earlier because I don't want that just to go like unmentioned, which is that there's a lot of stuff that we can't prove, even in our lifetimes. For example, when I went back to LA after you were there, I went in a driverless car with Drew. I mean, that was science fiction when we were growing up. Um, things like the observable universe, you know, we know that the universe is either infinite or boundless. We know that we can't see all of it, but we know that there's more of it there. We can only see what can be seen by the limits of the speed of light. So things that we thought weren't true before have subsequently become proven. But you made like a passing comment where you said something like, you know, you base this on things that can't be proven. Well, I put so much science and citations into the book about near-death experiences and terminal lucidity and dark retreats and lucid dreaming, that seriously question what we accept as the nature of consciousness. And we don't know everything. Um, we have like acceptable beliefs, but, you know, really serious scientists like David Eagleman and Donald Hoffman. So David says this idea that the brain might be like a radio that can pick up signals can't be proven, but it categorically cannot be disproven. Donald Hoffman says the construct of the universe is space-time. We accept that. Um, it it's not provable and he suggests that maybe the construct of the universe is consciousness. So I just think, you know, we've we've put it so far like because we're doctors, we have to have all the evidence base. But actually, if you're a scientist or a clinician, you have to question things as well. You can't just accept everything as it is. I mean, you must have had, like I have, patients where it doesn't fit the picture. And you've got to like, you know, see something that doesn't fit what you think it should be and think outside the box and and that's life or death for people.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean, I I feel like I'm much more open and accepting of these ideas because I've questioned the way we do medicine in the first instance. So when I was at medical school, um, it's probably very similar in the way it was taught when you were at medical school as well, where you make me sound ancient. No, no, you know, but a couple of years on me, that's all. But my point is that medicine hasn't changed that much in terms of the way we do things, diagnosis, symptoms, and a label. And when you have that label, there is like, you know, a concrete way of of treating said condition. Well, what if the whole way of thinking about medicine is on its head? And actually, we should be thinking first about what are the root causes that can be responsible for multiple different conditions, autoimmune conditions, you know, can be something that can be caused by stress. And that for me, you know, when I was at medical school, would have been unfathomable to even say out loud, you know? And and I don't and I still think people, you know, feel that that's an outrageous thing to say. I disagree. I think the body is really, really um in tune to, you know, our our thoughts and our physical manifestation of disease. So I think I've come around to this idea myself, but I what I I'm going into the rational Rupy here, like I think people will still struggle with this idea of like accepting things that um are not definitively proven. Even though there's evidence to suggest that we should be more open, it's not definitively proven.
Dr Tara Swart: Okay, so I'm going to come back to that. I just I just want to say I think, you know, what has changed maybe in the last 10 to 20 years is a much better understanding of inflammation being a root cause of most if not all, at least metabolic disorders. And like you said, when we when we were at medical school, that was not a thing. Um, so and then I also want to say that in one of the um sort of starting chapters, which is about our senses, obviously everyone knows we've got five senses. You and I went to medical school, so we know that there are more senses than that. But did you know there are 34 currently?
Dr Rupy: No, I didn't know. When you said that, I was like, I don't think I've I wouldn't be able to read them all, you know, like say them all to you now, but when I did the research, it was like, yeah, of course that makes sense. We've got appetite and waste sensors. We've got like blood oxygen. Yeah, all of that stuff. But taste, for example, is subdivided into five. So bitter, sweet, salty, sour and umami. Umami was only discovered in the 1980s. But does that mean it didn't exist before then? No. Um, and what I want the point I wanted to come back to that's really important is that everything that we know that's provable that we believe is fine. I don't think there's anyone that's going to listen to this that hasn't had a feeling in their gut that something is different to what, you know, you should be doing, that either, you know, they dismiss or they go with. That's irrelevant, but we do have this sense of knowing that and it's not always about everything that's provable.
Dr Rupy: There is a parallel with um uh Jeffrey Redinger and he wrote a book about spontaneous remission. And um he sort of chronicles all these different cases of people uh overcoming cancer, um overcoming like incurable um autoimmune conditions, things that perplex many many doctors. Um and the issue is, just like you've articulated, we don't talk about it. And when you get a room of like, let's say 100 doctors and you ask, has anyone ever seen spontaneous remission? A bunch of hands go up, majority of hands go up. Okay, put them down. Have you talked about it openly? Have you written it up? Have you, you know, submitted a case study? No hands go up. Because it's just seemed, you know, it's just one of those quirks of medicine. But actually, when those quirks and you you start counting them all together, they add up. There's something else going on. And I think we we should all be open to this this idea. Um and he actually talks a lot about belief in in that in that section of the book as well.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, and I think I want to say that having, you know, been a doctor, I have absolutely seen that miracles can happen. Things that you thought there's no way this person's ever going to recover. Sometimes they happen. Equally, I'm obviously going to say that in my personal case, a miracle did not happen. Somebody got a disease, had the brutal treatment, and it didn't work. So, but both of those things are true, but we just don't talk about the first one.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah. Um I want to talk about near-death experiences. You talk in the book about how there are some research that have chronicled like 10,000 or so near-death experiences and they all appear to align with similar experiences, similar um characteristics. What can we learn from near-death experiences?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, and what's really interesting about them is that just learning about them, so people who are studying social work or nursing or medicine, if that's like one of the units that they learn, they also get the benefits that people get from them. So, um, when you've had a near-death experience, people say that they no longer fear death, they know that there's something beautiful on the other side. They engage with life on a deeper level and take healthy risks that they may not have taken if they were worried about dying or failing because they don't fear failure anymore either. They become less materialistic, they see the connection between everything, like us, the universe, if that's what you want to call it, but it could be Godhead, it could be a cosmic force, it could be source. Um, and so I like, have you watched um, About Time?
Dr Rupy: No, I've heard you, no, I haven't watched it.
Dr Tara Swart: It's it's it's a beautiful movie anyway, you and Rochelle should watch it. But what happens at the end of it is this guy who can time travel, so he can continually was going back to create the scenario, ideal scenario of getting his like dream girl and having a family with her and stuff. In the end, there's a scene where, you know, he's just like rushing to work, he's on his commute, he grabs a coffee, um, doesn't make eye contact with the person that's like, you know, serving it to him. And then he realises that the true gift, and there's a parallel here for me where I think about the true gift that Robin's given me, he says the true gift is that if you actually really engage with life, you shouldn't need to change anything. And you just see this like, it's going to make me like really emotional, but you know, this beautiful scene where he pays for the coffee and notices that the girl's just like giving him like eye contact and a beautiful smile and he just appreciates that so much. And I think on this journey with signs, that's what I needed whilst I was navigating grief for comfort and guidance. But I did get to a point where I was like, I've got what I needed to feel like I'm still in touch with him. But the gift that he's really given me is that I must re-engage with life. I'm so lucky to be alive and healthy. And I, you know, I have things that I can offer to the world to, for me, like, you know, my purpose is helping people. I've been a doctor, I've been a coach. Now I've been given the incredible privilege of having platforms like yours to like speak to so many people. Um, that I I must do that. And that's why I wrote the book. But obviously people said to me like, don't you think you're taking a career risk? Um,
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: But, you know, what's turned out to be such a beautiful gift is like, it's like the best part of my career ever.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean, it's it's funny because I think I I don't know if I mentioned this uh earlier or like in a voice note to you or something, but I keep keep on thinking like it's so brave, like Tara, you're so brave to A, talk about your story, talk about something that's deeply personal, but also talk about things that are really taboo, especially coming from a doctor and a neuroscientist, someone, you know, who's really, really well established. But on the same side, like just as you've been saying during this podcast, there's a lot of evidence actually that you point to in the book. So is it actually bravery or is it actually, you know, you're just like presenting everything to us like, look, there's something going on here and we should all be open-minded as sceptical scientists. This is something that we should be engaging with.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm totally, I have so many thoughts going on in my head. I just need to have a little thing where I need to start. So I think the first thing to say that's really important is, you know, I came to you when Robin got his diagnosis, like you've known the entire story. But only my friends have known it for almost four years. And I was never going to share my sad story because that's it's not relevant to people that don't know me. I always said, if I find something with the benefit of hindsight that could help others, then I will share. And it took a lot for me to share. I, you know, I really didn't want to. But what I found was so comforting, so guiding, has brought me so much joy, I could not hold it back from people. And I and I actually didn't even realise how much pain people are in and that not talking about this is so wrong for humanity. Um, oh, I don't know where I was going to go.
Dr Rupy: No, that's that that really does speak to me because by not talking about it, you're depriving other people of comfort. And actually, an exploration of this conversation, if they see someone like yourself who's so established talking about it, it validates a lot of these feelings. And it, you know, hopefully it expands a lot of people's minds to this idea. It might even like trigger more research into this, hopefully.
Dr Tara Swart: That would be amazing. I mean, I think, so because you know me and like I'm that there I was going to say there's no rational Tara. Of course there is a rational Tara. But I don't I don't like lean into that as much. Um,
Dr Rupy: Really?
Dr Tara Swart: No. No, I mean, I live and die by my intuition. That's been a long established thing. Um, so, but I think I didn't realise how much being a neuroscientist and a doctor would validate this conversation because I love Laura Lynn Jackson, who's written Signs and The Light Between Us. And um, you know, I read books like The Untethered Soul and The Seat of the Soul and like Only Love is Real. Love all of that stuff. Um, but for some reason, for people to hear it coming from a medic and a scientist makes a difference. And that's what I can do.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, and if that ended my career, I wouldn't care. It's too important.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's that, you know, we've had conversations about this when you were my coach as well about how I need to be a lot more honest about myself about identifying as a medic and the leap of that I had to take from moving from clinical medicine into the type of medicine that I now practice. And you know, in comparison, that's a very small leap to the one that you're you're making and you're, you know, you're you're really um, you're really paving the way for a lot of people to to make their own mini leaps. Yeah. Um, I want to bring us back to near-death experiences because on the one side, there's there's um the side of me that wants to believe that those experiences are in some way validating or proving that there is something that's comforting on the other side, that there is a whether it's another universe, whether it's another sort of uh spiritual entity. Um, if you were to put your neuroscience hat on, are there any ways in which we can explain that experience, whether it's a surge in certain neurochemicals, um cortisol, whether it's adrenaline that leads to the similar experience that people have during NDEs?
Dr Tara Swart: Um, I think interestingly, I got a comment yesterday on Insta, which is that a number of these are when people are under anaesthesia. So I would like to exclude those because obviously drugs could cause an altered state of consciousness. Um, but there are, you know, more than enough where anaesthesia is not involved and it involves cardiac arrest and um like flatlining of EEG. So these people's hearts and brains are not working. Um, and there are, you know, there are a couple of high profile doctors that have had this experience. So Eben Alexander wrote Proof of Heaven. He was an atheist. And he then said, I know there's a heaven, I know there's a God that's benign, and, you know, it's beautiful on the other side. Um, I always forget the name of the doctor that was basically like submerged in water for like 20 minutes and people were trying to get to her and they couldn't and she had an out of body experience, went sort of, you know, went almost to the other side but then was told to come back. And and all the time knowing that you cannot be technically dead for that long and actually live again and not have brain damage or whatever. Um, but there are just so many cases. You know, I interviewed Dr. Bruce Greyson for my podcast. And I loved that because he's a professor of psychiatry and it reminded me of having a consultant that you really admire and learn from. And I was just like completely lapping it up. And there was a point on that podcast where I said, you're making me feel like everything that we need to know and for, you know, my point of view is obviously about modern mental health issues, is like hiding in plain sight. It's not stuff that we need to learn for new, it's just stuff that we need to remember. And there was a really emotional moment where he responded to that. And then equally, I um interviewed Professor Alexander Batthyany who does his research on terminal lucidity. And I pushed him so hard to just like say whether the consciousness can exist separately from the body. He was like, you know, my friends and family always say like, oh, just tell us what you actually really think, you know, we won't tell anyone. And he said, no one's pushed me as hard as you.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Dr Tara Swart: And then I said, and he said, you know, it can't be proven, but blah, blah, blah. And I said, okay, I'm not going to make you say it. I'm going to say that given what you've just said to me, the consciousness can exist separately from the physical body. And this is about the difference between dualism and materialism. There's also animism and panpsychism, all this like cool stuff.
Dr Rupy: What's animism and panpsychism? I don't think I've come across those.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, panpsychism, I think people would have to read the book. I think panpsychism is everything has a soul or a spirit, even if it's a rock or a tree or whatever.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, and animism is about animals.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha. Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: So, and there's more. And I have to say, you know, I hated writing. We went for that walk and talk and you're like, this is what you've got to do. Um, but when I was like researching, suck it up, Tara, just get over it. I was like, I can't do this. Um, when I was when I was actually Googling stuff like, is art what makes us human? You know, like, and things like panpsychism and stuff. I was like, this is cool. This is so cool. I wish I could have just been researching that stuff without actually having to write a book because obviously the pressure was huge. But um, yeah, and like lots of I did lots of research into like paleolithic times, ancient cultures. Um,
Dr Rupy: Oh, we're going to get into that for sure.
Dr Tara Swart: Okay.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I I want to talk a little bit about terminal lucidity because I don't think many people will have come across that. And I I've never experienced it myself as a as a doctor. So I I did some work in geriatric wards and um, you know, uh terminally ill patients quite often. Um, and and and very commonly, it's a it's just a very sad story where you have a lot of loved ones and they they watch their um their loved one part pass um gradually without any sort of um uh hope of them regaining their former self. Um, but terminal lucidity is very, very interesting. And again, something that we just have never been able to explain. So what why don't you tell us a bit about that?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, so I just want to kind of reiterate a little bit what you've said that I feel like mental illness and dementia, I feel are the cruelest ways to lose the person that you love because they're still there, but they're not themselves. Um, so in terminal lucidity, people who have what we currently believe to be irreversible brain damage, so dementia or, you know, a result of a brain tumour or something, and they are no longer themselves. They don't recognise their own family. Usually within 1 to 24 hours before death, they suddenly become completely lucid, which means they know who they are, where they are, who their family are. They have a like completely normal conversation like they would have had years ago with their family. Um, and just going back to what you said earlier, this is potentially explained by a surgeon neurochemicals, but it's not explained by the fact that the neurons and synapses have not been working for years, that there's, you know, beta amyloid and neurofibrillary tangles and tau proteins in the brain that have like killed off its ability to work in the way that it did. Um, so all that, you know, that both those professors on near-death experiences and terminal lucidity have really said is that the brain under duress on the border of life and death shows us something that potentially we are capable of during life. Um, and that probably the brain filters down the capability of the mind and our expanded consciousness for us to survive on this material plane. Um, and how exciting that is to a neuroscientist and a psychiatrist is mind-blowing. Like literally, I just it just makes me feel like what a time to be alive.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Have you have you come across I'm sure you have Professor Anil Seth's work around how our day-to-day living is basically a controlled hallucination?
Dr Tara Swart: No.
Dr Rupy: So he he does a lot of work in in consciousness. That's his that's his whole get up. He's been on the podcast before. And this idea of you essentially pruning away the incredible uh sensory sensory it would be sensory overload otherwise. I mean like you talk about in the book about how uh the feeling of our clothes on our skin, if we were constantly aware of that during our day-to-day, it's just so much input to to it would be overwhelming. And in a similar way, his theory is we we prune away these different inputs so we can actually function and we just focus on certain inputs at any one time. But actually our consciousness can be expanded in a way to use that terminology.
Dr Tara Swart: I mean, I think it's really it's going to be so interesting for us to watch like Raffy growing up because I believe that children are super intuitive, super creative, understand things like for example, as a child, I was kind of obsessed with parallel universes and string theory, but that gets schooled out of us, parented out of us, you know, religion tells us like to believe certain things and not believe other things. So I feel like it's a return to that. I think, you know, a really common example that a lot of people might resonate with is that, you know, if you're ridiculed as a child for certain things that you feel, then you cut off your intuition because you've got to keep your caregivers interested in you. That's survival. Um, so, yeah, things like intuition and creativity are more rational things that we can talk about, but I think there's extensions of those things which are, you know, just a deep sense of knowing, um, like maybe an understanding of the future, maybe, you know, connection to ancestors. And it's probably worth saying like right now that in our culture, we do ancestor worship. We believe in reincarnation. Um, but, you know, Western medical school made me move away from all of that kind of stuff.
Dr Rupy: Totally. Totally. Yeah. I mean, it was just completely, I wouldn't say beaten out of me, but like ridiculed is the word that comes to mind. This idea that, you know, um, reincarnation exists and if your belief system is based on thousands of years old texts and stuff and stories that people used to tell each other, like, you're not really a a medic, you're not really a scientist, you're just someone who believes in snake oil and all the rest of it. And I think there is the there are these connotations that people throw. I mean, I think it speaks to the brain, right? Like you want to be part of a tribe and your community. You don't want to be shunned or shamed. And that's probably the worst thing that anyone can do. Like this this sort of call out culture that you see on social media and and medics actually fighting with other medics as well, which is something that I I try and stay clear of as much as possible. Um, but on that on that note about uh consciousness, I do want to I'm going to push you now on consciousness and how because I think you've changed my mind about this concept of dualism and and monism. Um, maybe we should start by defining exactly what we mean by dualism and monism and where dualism came from, the sort of Descartes, no, Descartes, that was his uh his sort of theory about the the separation of mind and and body, right?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, so monism or materialism suggests that consciousness, emotions, state of mind can only come from matter. So it can only come from the brain and neurons and synapses and chemicals.
Dr Rupy: That's monism.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah. And dualism suggests that the consciousness can arise separately from matter. Um, and so actually, even like way further back than Descartes, all the ancient cultures believed in dualism. And it's I think it's in the book I say something like it's 0.004% of time that humanity's existed that we've accepted materialism as the way that things work.
Dr Rupy: Right.
Dr Tara Swart: And I just actually love the arrogance of thinking that we know more than all humans that ever existed before know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, you know, one of the things I've been saying to people recently is like, have you ever thought about a day in the life of Homo erectus? Why do we think that we are not going to be a blip in like millennia of humanity just like all the previous humans? It's mad to me that we think we know everything.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, and I want to know more. I mean, I my life and my work has been so intertwined. I don't know if I love change and growth because I study neuroplasticity or I don't know if I went into neuroplasticity because that's what I was always like. Um, and, you know, even now that I I feel like, you know, the areas I'm really interested in are like longevity and psychedelic work. I think about when I did my intercalated BSc. So after two years of medicine, if you just do an extra year, you can get a degree. And the modules I chose for that were neuropharmacology, the biology of aging, the pharmacology of drug dependence, neuroanatomy. I mean, that was like, I'm scared to say, I think it's like 30 years ago.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, so that's just come so full circle. Those are the things that I'm interested in and, yeah, I'm just like obsessed with spirituality and ancient, you know, cultures and there's just so much to learn from them. Like, for example, let me give you a really, really tangible thing. So I had the most amazing psychologist give me therapy through my grief. And it helped enormously. But I had this weird experience just so, you know, at sort of the 10 month point after Robin had passed away, I was sort of doing the best that I'd done. Um, but I knew the anniversary was coming and I know, you know, I'd read about um, someone sent me an article on pathological grief and said that the six month point is the lowest point. And that if after a year, someone is still ruminating and crying, that's termed as pathological grief. So, but that the anniversary is very, very hard, even if you're doing a bit better by then. So I was really aware of that and it was coming up on October 26th. But from the fourth, I was like in so much physical pain. I even went for a massage and it was so painful. I didn't go again for a year. And, you know, I was also like mentally feeling sort of really depressed, but this physical aches and pains was just weird. And it started on October 4th. And I couldn't work out why. And I ended up looking back in my phone calendar and October 4th was the day that I took Robin home from hospital knowing that he had two weeks to live. Um, and he actually lived for three and a half weeks, but that was an extremely stressful day. You know, private ambulance, oxygen had to be in place, you know, sort of hospital bed wasn't ready and um, so I sort of that made me realise that my body remembered something that my mind didn't. And eventually I started um having what's called body realignment therapy. I also tried some craniosacral therapy. Um, and it was, I mean, that was not like a relaxing massage. It was so painful. I cried sometimes. But that physical therapy, that that was what took me sort of to the next level of getting that trauma out of my body. So, um, you know, Bessel van der Kolk's work, The Body Keeps the Score. Um, so he talks a lot about how trauma shuts off the Broca's area of the brain, which is the part that articulates speech. So a lot of people with PTSD don't actually have the words to even benefit from talking therapy. And so yoga or massage or dance or drumming or, you know, humming, chanting, all these things that ancient cultures did, that's the way to exit trauma from your physical body. So ancient Greeks, when they buried their dead, would wail and beat their chests. And it just makes so much sense to me that they knew they had to express it vocally, but also release it physically.
Dr Rupy: And it speaks to that wisdom that we've sort of lost along the way, right?
Dr Tara Swart: Exactly. Yeah. And so the latest modern science is what's called the serotonin hypothesis. So most people associate serotonin with mood. But at least 95% of our serotonin is produced outside the central nervous system, mostly in the gut. And that serotonin can't cross the blood-brain barrier. So it has absolutely no effect on mood. And the word itself is derived from serum, which is our blood and plasma, and tone, because in the periphery, serotonin acts on blood vessels to constrict or dilate them, which changes the amount and nature of nutrients and oxygen that go into the tissues. And this is the hypothesis for how trauma is stored in the body.
Dr Rupy: Gosh. Wow. I've never come across that before.
Dr Tara Swart: So that this is really new. And I just want to give a shout out to Rayan Zafar. He's a neuropharmacologist working with Professor Nutt at Imperial. Oh yeah, yeah. Gave me this this theory. But before this theory, which is like, you know, very, very new, um, Bessel van der Kolk and a, you know, just a load of other people in that trauma area have talked about bracing patterns held in the body through trauma. And and that's, you know, a lot of that, I think is like very non-conscious, um, and not that well understood. But I just remember when Robin was in hospital, I'd come home in the evening and I'd sort of sit in this hunched over position, like, I don't know if I was actually clenching my fist, but it felt, you know, I was fighting for his life. And of course, if you sit like that every day for four months, it's going to change your posture.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, so, yeah, that really makes sense.
Dr Rupy: It makes sense, like, you know, and I think that's where you you marry the sort of the rationality of the science side with the idea of like leaning into ancient practices of if you're literally holding yourself, as we do, over time, that's going to lead to a physical malformation, if you like, that needs to be treated and needs to be released. Um, and on the subject of releasing, I I do want to go back to consciousness because if consciousness doesn't arise from the matter, where do you believe it it arises? Where does it come from?
Dr Tara Swart: Um, I know that's quite a big question. That's a really big question. That's a really big question. I think I'm just going to say it exists separately.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, I think that they intertwine, but it's not that consciousness comes from the matter. They both interact with each other.
Dr Rupy: Do you think it lives on?
Dr Tara Swart: I do, obviously. Um, and so do a lot of people now that I've shared. Um, you know, all like again, all the major religions, all the ancient cultures have some kind of belief in the afterlife or resurrection or reincarnation. Why the only reason that we don't totally go with it is because it can't be proven. But I just don't believe that everything that can't be proven doesn't exist or doesn't matter. I think I think what's what's important, you know, in term I'll just going to do it on our story is that we could have stayed NHS doctors for the rest of our career, retired, you know, had however many years in retirement and then died. And that would that's a that's a life. Having a belief in something greater than that changes your whole life. It it makes life so beautiful. It makes you so grateful for life. Um, you know, let's just say, let's talk refer to the five regrets of the dying. So, um, this palliative care nurse that wrote this book said that she saw the difference at the end of life in people. And the major factor that made a difference was that people believed in something greater than themselves.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah. And you see it in the blue zones as well, right? They have obviously, you could put it down to plant-focused diet, exercise, community, but that strong sense of purpose and faith. Even, you know, Rochelle's um Rochelle's uh grandmother who uh lived until she was 105. Oh. Yeah. Didn't know that. Died was mainly cheese. Very uh stubborn Italian woman. Um wonderful, wonderful person. I absolutely adored her. She had a the one of the strongest senses of um faith and religion. Like one of the happiest days of her life was when she got a letter from the Pope. Um went to mass every Sunday. Um and look was largely bedridden um for the for the last years of her life, but that strong sense of of faith and purpose and the afterlife is something that really gave her that vigour up until her last days. I mean, I I had full on conversations with this woman every time I went to see her and just, you know, holding her hand and everything. And I I really believe that like to live if if let's say you don't want to believe any of this and let's say you you don't want to uh you can't make sense of it. Even just practicing it is going to be good for your health. And all the evidence appears to to point in that direction.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, I mean, a junior doctor I met in Oxford last year said something to me that's really stuck with me, which is there is no biology without psychology and there is no psychology without biology. And even that mind-body connection is not really understood or accepted by most people. Um, so, yeah, I think it's just a few of these things we've mentioned, like inflammation being the root cause of so many diseases, the mind-body connection, and then, you know, if you want to take it further, the nature of consciousness and communication with psyche, spirit, soul, whatever, these are really things that can change people's life. And just just even contemplating them is not going to harm you. You know, I always, even with writing this book, I always think of do no harm. You know, that's the one thing that the promise that we made.
Dr Rupy: Totally.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, so, you know, when I suggest that people ask for a sign, I think the worst thing that can happen is you won't get one. It's not going to harm you. So, why not consider those things?
Dr Rupy: We've defined for for folks what signs are, how you might ask for a sign. I think the other part of this conversation is regardless of whether you have the ability or capacity to believe in some of the things that we've talked about, what are some of the practices that we can do to be more open to the universe and more connected? And and this speaks to some of the ancient practices that we we mentioned a little bit earlier that I'm certainly trying to get more of in my life because I like to see health through the lens of evolution and what we know uh have been passed down in terms of tradition, morning sunlight, walking after meals, all the things that, you know, Ayurveda teaches us as well. Um, what are some of the practices that you think are are a great bang for people's buck?
Dr Tara Swart: So the biggest one for me is spending time in nature. Um, and when I was in the first few weeks even of grief, I literally couldn't even eat, but the one thing I did do was go for a walk every day. And I just thought you just can't sit on the sofa all day, you know, at least do a 30-minute walk, get those steps in kind of thing. And then after a while, I thought, well, I'm not doing anything else. I might as well walk for longer. Um, and I was, you know, very lucky. I was living in a really beautiful part of the countryside. And once I started walking for an hour or more, I could feel the difference on my mental health.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Dr Tara Swart: And again, as a neuroscientist and a psychiatrist, just taking that step back and doing metacognition, you know, looking at myself and thinking, this is actually making you feel like good. That's incredible. Um, sort of noting that. Um, and then I stumbled across the field of neuroaesthetics, which is about the importance of the arts and culture and beauty and particularly nature on mental health, physical health and longevity. And so what the what people the scientists there say is that we've existed in nature from the beginning of humanity. So it's the most aesthetically pleasing palette to us. And so there's there's habituation and saliency in the brain. And habituation is that, you know, if you walk past the same amazing tree or impressive architecture every day, you eventually stop noticing it. Saliency is novelty seeking and curiosity and what I call the art of noticing. And once I started practicing it, I would, you know, notice the spring blossoms, notice the autumn leaves. And very quickly, because you know, I do a neuroplasticity like training every year, I noticed how many times a day in my head or out loud, I was saying, that's so pretty, that's so beautiful, that's so lovely. Oh, look at this, smell that, you know. And I was like, wow, that's like, you know, I've taken that on really quickly. And I think because we need that as humans. It's it feels so good that once you start doing it, you just you can't stop, you know, it's like a drug. Um, and for me, that is my gratitude practice taken to the next level. Um, noticing and appreciating beauty. Um, and what's important, a couple of things that are important about it is that it's both about making and beholding. So you could draw or go to an art gallery, you could dance around your living room or go to the ballet, you could sing in the shower or listen to music. Um, and the real like lovely thing about it is that you don't have to be good at it. The benefits are the same. Um, got a couple of stats for you. So people who engage in the arts and culture every two months have a 31% lower mortality risk. People who only go twice a year to, and there's so many free galleries, you know, in London, um, have a 14% lower mortality risk. Um, you know, I'm a massive fan of the ballet. And, you know, it used to be such a treat and I would like get the most expensive ticket that I could afford. I'm now obsessed with finding the cheapest tickets to actually have a go. Because I go to everything. Um, and, you know, you can get tickets for seven or 14 pounds.
Dr Rupy: What?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, I'll take you.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, please do.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, so, because I think ballet particularly is seen as quite elitist.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: But, yeah, you can I mean, I don't want to give my secrets away. I suddenly won't be able to find these tickets anymore. Exactly. Um, but like I said, there are, you know, free galleries, there are beautiful parks. Um, so, you know, and you can just listen to music at home, you can listen to nature sounds. I got this gadget at the Royal Academy of Arts, which is a motion sensitive um, gives out nature sounds when you walk past it. It gives you two minutes as if you're walking along a river.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: That's awesome. So if you don't have time to go to the river, you just put on this little gadget. That's brilliant.
Dr Tara Swart: Well, I've actually put it somewhere that I don't go all the time, so I kind of forget about it. And then when I walk past it and it starts, it's so funny.
Dr Rupy: So what I'm hearing is, you know, it's important to be a passive recipient of arts and culture or experiencing nature or something creative, but it's also important to engage in it, whether you're good at it or not. Like, I'll give you an example and Rochelle hates me doing this, but I've I've started taking up the ukulele again and I want to play for Raphael. I'm not good. It sounds terrible, but I hopefully I'm instilling him some sort of like awful ukulele music. Um, but it's it's helping me like, you know, engage with him a bit more and like, you know, show him sounds, live music, all that kind of stuff. So I'm going to quote this uh from from for Rochelle the next time she tells me to to pack it in, that it's actually good for uh me becoming a bit more intuitive and open.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Epic.
Dr Tara Swart: I'm just I'm literally visualising him banging it on the floor though.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, he does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got him a mini one as well and he just like wants to put it in his mouth the whole time. Um, humming and uh and drumming, you know, some of these these ancient practices. I remember you I think you wrote it in your book about the didgeridoo, the the sort of Aboriginal instrument that has a real loud vibration. What is it about the vibrating sounds that that sort of uh that are beneficial for us?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, so um, so I lived in Australia for two years in Darwin and uh there's a really famous band that comes from Darwin called Yothu Yindi. And I mean, they're like globally hugely successful, but they always do concerts for free in Darwin and I was so lucky to get to go to one of them. And they've got massive didgeridoos. So the the vibration, you feel it through your whole body.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Dr Tara Swart: And there's a reason that sound bathing and gong baths have become so popular. Um, because it basically resets your nervous system. So, you know, we're all so stressed out, chronically stressed and that means that most of the time we're in fright, flight, fight, um, which is the sympathetic nervous system. And vibration is one of the things that can reset us to parasympathetic, which is like rest and digest. Um, but I think, you know, what's really important to say is that in paleolithic times where we had no spare resources for fun, you know, it was all about survival, we engaged in drumming, humming, chanting, we made these instruments, um, we made cave paintings. So why? The only reason can be that it was crucial to our survival and it helped us to make sense of the world around us and it fostered a sense of belonging. And what's really interesting is that we tend to think that cave paintings from 40,000 years ago are the first evidence of humans making art. But actually, 10,000 years before that, there is evidence that in Southern Africa, people were carving into ostrich eggshells.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, 50,000 years before that, people were making necklaces out of shells and wearing them and taking crumbled ochre and putting it on their faces and their bodies to adorn themselves.
Dr Rupy: Oh, gosh.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, 500,000 years ago, we made tools that were more beautiful and symmetrical than they had to be to do the job that they were for.
Dr Rupy: What?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: That's mind-blowing.
Dr Tara Swart: I know. And that speaks to the importance of art and beauty to human to humans. Like, like I think I mentioned earlier, I actually had to research and find citations for is art what makes us human?
Dr Rupy: Wow. So it's, I mean, if we're not engaging in arts, we're we're really depriving something that's deeply, deeply human.
Dr Tara Swart: Or I would say at least noticing beauty. I think that's an easier thing to bring into your life. You know, not everyone that listens to this is going to necessarily go to an art gallery or start, you know, painting. Um, but bringing nature into your home, um, noticing beauty, yeah, they're really easy things to like almost immediately enrich your life.
Dr Rupy: And on the subject of enrichment, what about this concept of olfactory enrichment? Um, you know, the smells and and and other things that again have been passed down through through human history.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, so there's some really incredible research that came out recently that shows that olfactory enrichment, which means to smelling different things during the day, can improve memory and cognition as we age. But there's a particular research paper that shows that people who, um, the experiments were done overnight with diffusers giving out essential oils, but, you know, you can do it by smelling your coffee, you know, lighting a candle, having, you know, I've got reed diffusers and mechanical diffusers throughout my house, that if you rotate through seven different smells, it increases your brain power by 226%.
Dr Rupy: What? Just smells?
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Really? Any particular smells? Any particular like essential oils?
Dr Tara Swart: Obviously like trying to keep them natural. No, it's just a variety.
Dr Rupy: Really? Wow. That's amazing. Do you have a diffuser?
Dr Tara Swart: I've got two mechanical diffusers, a reed diffuser, I use incense.
Dr Rupy: That's amazing.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, you know, I'm very conscious about, like when I walked in here, didn't I say, oh, it smells nice?
Dr Rupy: Yes, that's the first thing you said. Yeah, we hadn't even been cooking. It was yesterday that we were cooking.
Dr Tara Swart: Wow. So you're really in tune to that clearly.
Dr Rupy: That's amazing. Okay, so I've got like a little list of things that I need to do here. So nature, gratitude, um, the art of noticing, saliency, humming, and actually engaging in in some, you know, vibrational sense. You mentioned sound baths as well. How where do those come from? Are they are they Chinese in in origin or Indian?
Dr Tara Swart: Definitely Eastern, I think. I think like they're more aligned with Buddhist countries.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha. Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, yeah, so I've got a sound bowl at home as well. I want to add one in to all of those because to really demonstrate like what we do in real life, which is that, you know, you've cooked for me with your family and stuff, but we go for walks and talks. You know, and we really share stuff and we give each other such a sense of psychological safety. That is so important to people. Like we can't exist by ourselves. We have to be part of a tribe. Um, so that's the one that I would say is up there for me with nature.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Tara Swart: And I remember when um Rochelle was pregnant and we went to Holland Park. And we saw those little um ducklings. Do you remember?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I remember that.
Dr Tara Swart: Because because we were walking because I wanted to get the walk in, but then like we stopped and we were talking and after a while I was like, I want to like keep moving. And I was like, you can't stop looking at the baby ducklings, can you? And you were like, no, I can't.
Dr Rupy: I think it was just touching me at the time, you know, this thought of having a little duckling myself, but yeah, it's um, I mean, I think I've definitely let into the art of noticing. Did I tell you I went on a silent retreat at the start of the year? I'm not sure you told me about a silent retreat. I know you told me about another retreat.
Dr Rupy: So I did a silent retreat at the start of this year where there's no phones, emails, no speaking, no reading, no listening. And um, honestly, it was one of the best experiences I've had, not in the moment actually. It was afterwards because obviously like I was very bored during the time. I was like, oh, I just wish I could listen to a podcast or I could check the news or check my whatever. And I remember there were times where I was just sat on a bench and luckily the the weather was great and I was outside and I just sort of unpacked my entire life because I had time. I you know, what else was I going to do?
Dr Tara Swart: How long was it?
Dr Rupy: It was three days.
Dr Tara Swart: Okay.
Dr Rupy: So, um, and I I went through like my earliest memories, I unpacked my childhood, I revisited some positive memories, some negative ones creeped up as well. But generally it was quite positive. But the best thing that I um found was actually after the retreat and I was a lot more present with Raphael who was three or four months at the time. And I had less nervous energy about grabbing my phone because that sort of habituation had had sort of been interrupted. And I guess if we're we're thinking about things on on this list, um, what would be the opposite of things that you try and actively avoid to ensure that you remain open?
Dr Tara Swart: Um, so I think the main one that I'm quite well known for is that I never watch the news.
Dr Rupy: Rochelle Rochelle finds it really irritating the fact that I don't watch the news.
Dr Tara Swart: Really?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, because she tells me about the news. I'm like, I have no idea. She was like, what do you mean you have no idea?
Dr Tara Swart: Um, and that I do digital detoxes over Christmas and New Year. So anything from two to four weeks.
Dr Rupy: Nice.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, that creates so much space and time and ends up with me being super creative and really makes you realise how much time you spend on your phone.
Dr Rupy: Totally.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, yeah.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. That's that the main thing? I mean, have you ever done like a retreat? Like you mentioned dark retreats in your in your book actually, mimicking a near-death experience. It sounds quite extreme.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah, it does. I mean, I guess it is, right? You're in darkness for seven days.
Dr Rupy: I know. I mean, you can just you can just do it for a few hours or a weekend, but um, in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, it's all about sevens. So monks actually do it for seven weeks.
Dr Rupy: Seven weeks?
Dr Tara Swart: 49 days.
Dr Rupy: Oh my god.
Dr Tara Swart: Yeah. Um, but there are, I've actually been invited to one since I spoke about it. Um, which I'm excited for.
Dr Rupy: A seven-weeker?
Dr Tara Swart: No, a seven. I think it'll probably be seven days.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Dr Tara Swart: Um, wow. Yeah, so it's like double walled, so it's completely like pitch black.
Dr Rupy: Gosh.
Dr Tara Swart: And of course that induces a lot of melatonin, so people tend to sleep a lot at first. But you fall asleep in darkness and you awake in darkness. And then apparently, you start to see like the walls shimmering and glowing a little bit. So light comes from darkness. Um, and then people, you know, at first they might see like shooting stars or whatever. And eventually, people see animals, deities, angels. Um, and it is the closest thing that you can experience as a human to a near-death experience because obviously you can't really induce that. Um, yeah, and it has uh the same benefits that I described earlier from near-death experiences.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Gosh, you're going to tell us how how that goes.
Dr Tara Swart: Do you want to come with me?
Dr Rupy: I I I'm not joking. I I would 100% be up for that because I've had my mini silent retreat experience, which, you know, in Vipassana, I think it's like 10 days. So I did like a three-day one. So it was sort of like, you know, um silent retreat light. But feeling the benefits of that afterwards has made me really intrigued and just just realigning. And it sounds extreme, but if you think about our day-to-day, it is really extreme, you know? We're inside a lot, we're not engaging with nature, knowing near as much, we're not grounding. I know you talked about grounding in the book as well and you know, there's some science around that. We even had Dr. Drew Ramsey talking about that as a psychiatrist himself about the importance of grounding and the ions and there's science around this as well. You know, it's um, so I'm really fascinated by this. And I would 100% be up for that. Is it in the UK or is it abroad?
Dr Tara Swart: No, this one's in the US.
Dr Rupy: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely I would definitely be up for that. So, you know, I'm getting a picture of like your day, spending a lot more time in nature, gratitude journaling, um, humming. Are there any sort of other non-negotiables that you do that would be um useful for for the audience or or something that you think is a little bit more extreme that perhaps is something that most people wouldn't do?
Dr Tara Swart: Not really. Honestly, I just I keep it very simple. You know, I do my gratitude as soon as I wake up. I try to notice beauty throughout the day. I absolutely love and care for and invest in the people that are in my life. I go for lots of long walks. Um, and I go to every single ballet that comes out at Royal Opera House.
Dr Rupy: I can definitely attest to that. You are just such a loving person and it's amazing that I've got, I feel very privileged to have you in my life.
Dr Tara Swart: Oh.
Dr Rupy: You're just incredible. And
Dr Tara Swart: Same and like love your wife and your baby so much.
Dr Rupy: And it's great to so I can pick your brain when it comes to Raphael because I definitely want to expand his consciousness because and just going back to the what we started this podcast um saying, you know, I want I want him as well as myself to experience everything that life has to offer. And that means being open to what we can't explain currently and the universe and
Dr Tara Swart: I'm just going to put this in here now like officially. I I still think that having me as a godmother is going to be like the best thing.
Dr Rupy: We're going to negotiate that with Rochelle. Thank you, Tara. You're the best. I appreciate you. I appreciate, you know, what you put out there in the world. Your work is incredible. I read The Source multiple times a year along with other books that you've mentioned like Untethered Soul and James Allen, As a Man Thinketh, um and now Signs is going to be one of those books as well.
Dr Tara Swart: Thank you.
