Dr Rupy: True or false, one bad meal can wreck your gut health?
Dr Emily Leeming: False.
Dr Rupy: What is the biggest myth around gut health that drives you mad?
Dr Emily Leeming: That you have to take probiotics, that you have to have expensive supplements, you know, an expensive microbiome test, absolutely not needed.
Dr Rupy: Okay. I can sense that there's probably a few myths. Uh, and what is one gut health habit that you rarely, if ever, skip, no matter what?
Dr Emily Leeming: Focus on fibre.
Dr Rupy: Okay. What is one food that you would never want to give up for your gut health?
Dr Emily Leeming: Beans. Love them. Big fan.
Dr Rupy: Is leaky gut a real thing?
Dr Emily Leeming: Um, I think it's been miscommunicated in that it does, um, the science is there to support some of it, but it's been made and pathologised into something else.
Dr Rupy: Okay, interesting. We're going to get to that, I'm sure. And, uh, last of all, can the menopause negatively affect my gut?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yes and no.
Dr Rupy: Interesting. All right. We've got a lot of things to go through today.
Dr Rupy: What is our gut trying to tell us? It might not speak in words, but it's always sending signals through your energy levels, mood, even our skin. But most of us don't think about these little signs as part of the bigger picture. But a blatant way your gut communicates your general state of health is through the state of your poo. Quickly flushed away, many of us don't take the time to examine our poop for signs of health. But if you're interested in gut health, keeping a track of your stools could be more informative than any wearable or micro test you can buy. And today, we're diving into this world of what our poop says about our general health with Dr Emily Leeming. She's a scientist at King's College London, a registered dietitian and author of Genius Gut. And in today's episode, you'll learn about what to look for in your poop and how to tell that your digestive system is working optimally, whether the evidence for eating 30 plants a week is actually that strong, really, really surprising to me, how menopause can actually affect your gut and what to do about it, and how long it would take to reset or, quote unquote, heal the gut after years of excessive sugar, poor eating or antibiotics. We also talk about the superpowers of fibre, which is Emily's favourite topic, how it creates this obstacle course for sugar, how it can stretch the gut and signal to your brain that you've eaten enough, and how it can even lower your cholesterol. Remember, you can check out Emily's book in all good book stores, Genius Gut, and also her amazing Substack, Second Brain. It's a free newsletter that she sends out and it's jam packed full of great information. This is an episode that you can also watch on YouTube, don't forget. And if you're looking for an easy way to increase your fibre and protein after listening to our podcast, you've got to try the new Daily Doctor's Kitchen bread on the Doctor's Kitchen app. It is so easy to make and it is the most delicious gluten-free bread that I've personally tasted. I'm not a baker. I am allergic to baking, but this is so easy. I make it weekly with me and my wife. And talking of gut-friendly ingredients, today's episode is brought to you by Exhale. If you're a coffee snob just like myself, then you'll absolutely love this ridiculously healthy as well as ridiculously tasty coffee. I'm chief science officer for Exhale because I'm passionate about not only good quality coffee, but also good quality ingredients. And you can learn a bit about why I feel Exhale coffee is the best thing to drink every single day on their website. Just click the link if you want to try a bag and get another one free, or use the code Rupy241, that's RUPY241 at checkout for one bag free when you buy a bag of Exhale coffee. On to the podcast with Dr Emily Leeming.
Dr Rupy: Maybe I thought to myself, maybe we should start at a bit of a higher level because I am guilty of this as well. I throw around the the words gut health quite loosely, just kind of assuming that people know what I talk about, what I'm referring to. Um, so why don't we start by imagining you're in the pub or some other gut-friendly environment, um, and you're explaining to someone what you mean when you say the words gut health.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so I think I really start with saying, what is the gut? And I think most of us when we think about the gut, we point to our stomachs and we say this is our belly. Um, and actually the gut is starting in our mouth and going all the way down to our bum. So it's that whole digestive tract. So really we're thinking about the health of that entire process. But now more commonly, we're actually referring to the health of your gut microbiome. So this living, thriving community of tiny living organisms called microbes that live in your lower intestine. So that's towards the end of your digestive tract. And they are, we want them to be kind of thriving, we want them to be making these special molecules for our health. And it's these molecules that are particularly important because they are helping to support the health of your gut, but they're also travelling across the lining of your gut into your bloodstream and supporting your organs and body systems too.
Dr Rupy: Okay. And so just so we get our terminology right, because I'm sure we're going to be referring to this throughout the episode, we're referring to microbes as bacteria, but also viruses, nematodes, fungi. I'm guessing those are all part of this rich ecosystem in our, largely in our large intestine.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so predominantly in our large intestine, we have about 100 trillion microbes. So within these microbes, we have bacteria, we have fungi, we have viruses, we have archaea. We actually tend to talk mostly about bacteria because they're the ones that we know a lot more about. And really the evidence around, um, viruses, for example, is only just beginning and it's a very exciting different field. So that's really what we're talking about. And I think it's worth remembering that this 100 trillion microbes, you know, that is as many, uh, microbes as there are stars in the Milky Way galaxy. And everyone has a very individual gut microbiome. It's as unique to them as a fingerprint. So it's this kind of new kind of forgotten organ that we haven't previously known about because it's really only in the last 20 years that we've been able to research it and understand that it's there and how influential it is for our health.
Dr Rupy: And so we have these microbes and then you mentioned special molecules that they produce. What do we refer to those molecules as and what are some examples of them?
Dr Emily Leeming: So their technical term is metabolites. Um, I often just talk about them as just molecules because I think sometimes it can just be like too many like terms being flown around. Um, but within those, there's a particular group called short-chain fatty acids. And these are the ones that are very potent for your health. Um, your body can't make them itself. It needs your microbes to be able to make them. And this, these are really produced by your microbes, your bacteria feeding on fibre from the foods that you eat. That then helps them to make these special molecules, these metabolites, these short-chain fatty acids, which have an anti-inflammatory effect and they travel across your body and they're also really important for your brain health as well. We're seeing that, um, they support your blood-brain barrier, which is this fortress around your brain that basically acts like gateways, letting the helpful nutrients in and keeping the harmful ones out.
Dr Rupy: And, um, not to take us down too much of a meandering path here, but if short-chain fatty acids are so important for us, if I consume some of these metabolites like, I don't know, butyrate, let's say, that I'm now seeing sort of being added to drinks and potions, is that going to have the same benefits as if, it's almost like I'm going straight to the source. I'm like, okay, these microbes produce butyrate, so I'm going to consume some butyrate and I'm going to have hopefully the same desired anti-inflammatory effect or the brain boosting effect or whatever they might be.
Dr Emily Leeming: So the research is really new around this and these what they're called postbiotics. And it makes intuitive sense, right? That if you're eating these short-chain fatty acids, that's kind of skipping a step and they're going to have a health effect. Um, we're not quite seeing that translating and it might be because of the fact that the gut is a really kind of long, uh, you know, pipe before it even gets to your gut microbes or even be absorbed in your small intestine, uh, or your large intestine. And this is probably because your, they've got to get past your stomach, which is a swirling sack of acid. And I talk a little bit like it's, um, a little bit like Indiana Jones having to kind of make his way, uh, across all these different obstacle course. It's very like that for the food that we eat. You know, which is great because it keeps the bad things out by killing them, but it also makes it quite difficult sometimes when we're ingesting things to not always have the same effect. But I think we'll have more research in this area. I think it's going to be quite interesting to keep an eye on.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. I often think that there's a reason why evolution has designed this pathway for us. And I think any shortcut always comes with a trade-off. And I'm not too sure what that trade-off is, um, at this point, but I'm always a little bit sceptical and that's why I personally have like a food focused approach.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, there's no such thing as a silver bullet. And actually, you know, it's the simple things that make the biggest difference that maybe don't seem that sexy, you know, having, you know, a balanced diet, focusing on fibre, getting a variety of different plants in.
Dr Rupy: Um, at the start of your book, uh, Genius Gut, which I, I love, um, you've got this sort of really insightful, um, gut health quiz and it sort of gives folks an insight into what the health status of their gut is. I wonder if you can walk us through that and perhaps is there someone listening to this and they're thinking, well, I don't really know if my gut health is optimum or not. Should I do a gut health test? Isn't that like something that will give me some sort of, uh, idea as to what's going on with my gut, um, in the context of like whether a quiz can do the same thing.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so I think what I really wanted to do with the quiz was show how much our body is telling us about our health already. And a really, really easy, simple way of checking our gut health is by just looking into the toilet bowl and looking at your poo. So I talk about poo, I don't think we should be talking about stools and bowel movements and getting kind of stressed about it. Like poo is poo.
Dr Rupy: Poo is poo.
Dr Emily Leeming: Poo is poo. Um, and there's a few things that you want to be looking at. You want to be looking at that shape of the poo, which is, um, ideally, and I still need to find a term that isn't food related for this. Um, you're looking for a sausage, a smooth sausage or a sausage with cracks in it. Maybe we can brainstorm one later. Um, you're looking for how often are you having it. So anything from three times a day to three times a week is considered healthy. Now that's quite a range. I think people find that, um, you know, kind of a bit confusing, but that's just to show that we are all slightly different and you can be healthy within that. Um, you're also looking at the colour of the poo. So it wants to be a dark brown. If you are getting red or black, that could be likely a sign that there's some blood in the poo and that might be something that you want to go and check with your doctor, um, just to see that there's not something more sinister going on. Then you're looking at, um, are you having any uncomfortable digestive symptoms with that? Is there discomfort when you go to the bathroom? Um, are you struggling to get everything completely out? Is there any pain? Um, so really those things collectively all together are showing you kind of how healthy your gut is.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And when I, when I hear this, and it might be a key for some of our listeners to think about poo, but within my culture, so I'm from an Indian background, we talk about poo all the time. And this is something that's been normalised from childhood. It's just, you know, how is your poo? Is your poo all right? And later on, I kind of felt the embarrassment and shame when I went to school and there wasn't near the same sort of like, um, ease around talking about toilet habits. But this is something that I think you're championing, right? Through obviously the, the quiz, but just normalising the conversation around poo.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, absolutely. Everyone does it. Kim Kardashian does it. You know. Uh, you know, it's something that I think we just need to be open talking about, um, particularly where it's giving such a, it's such an easy thing to keep an eye on with our health. Um, I talk about pee as well as being a really great way of checking your hydration levels. Um, so
Dr Rupy: Let's talk about that actually. Yeah.
Dr Emily Leeming: We can talk. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: What, what colour should my pee be?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so, so you want it to be like that homemade, um, lemonade colour. So that kind of pale, slightly pale lemon tinge. Uh-huh. Um, that it's see-through, but you've still got a kind of a slight hint of colour, but it's translucent, obviously. And then a sign that it's perhaps you need to be drinking more is when it's concentrated apple juice. So I think the thing is that while drinking eight glasses of water a day is a really helpful measure, it's effectively a myth. Um, and actually your hydration levels do change day-to-day depending on how much salt you've eaten, how much exercise you've done, how hot the environment is. Maybe you're on holiday in Costa Rica and you need to drink some more water. Um, so yes, aim for eight glasses of water a day, but do just check in with your body and just use that as kind of a really easy reference point for how much you need to be drinking.
Dr Rupy: I want to come back to pee in a second. I just want to, uh, highlight something you mentioned around the three per week versus three per day, all of which can be normal. How does one recognise whether that is normal or whether they're constipated? Is it with the constellation of other symptoms associated with their bowel habit frequency?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so you want to be really thinking about all those four things that we talked about. So the shape, the form, the colour, um, and also how comfortable you feel in going to the bathroom, how quickly it's coming out, the kind of lack of pain. Um, so if you are going over three times, uh, a week, then that is likely a sign that you're constipated. But even if you have a change within, say you're somebody who goes three times a day and then it slows down, that could be a sign that something's going on with your gut because it's a change from your normal. So I think that's also something to like really be aware of that if you're having a big change from what's normal for you for probably longer than three weeks, that might be something where like, oh, you know, maybe I'll go and look into that, even though it technically comes within that range that's healthy.
Dr Rupy: Within your normal habits. So let's say you go usually once a day, um, and you start going twice a day, um, for a week, and then another week it goes down to, okay, well, I'm only going three times a week now. So there is this sort of inherent fluctuation in your bowel frequency. It's not really, uh, the same and this is a new thing. What are the things that can speed up the frequency and reduce the frequency generally speaking?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so I think a lot of it comes down to diet, but also stress because we have this big connection between our gut and our brain. I think, uh, anyone will recognise within themselves or perhaps know someone that if they're in like an exam environment or maybe they have to do a stressful presentation at work, um, that will then make them perhaps need to run to the bathroom. And you can, that can go either way for someone with stress. It can be that they need to just straight away go and like got a really fast, you know, maybe got diarrhoea or something or it's just kind of happening really quickly. But it can also go the other way and be constipation. So stress is a big thing. So diet's another one. So diet, uh, you know, obviously what we eat changes every single day. And fibre is, uh, something that we really want to be thinking about when we're thinking about how quickly or slowly, uh, our poo is kind of passing through. Fibre acts like your kind of optimal timekeeper. It helps to make sure that things aren't going too fast, but it also helps to make things aren't going too slow. So it could be that having kind of changes in your diet, perhaps you're having a kind of higher fibre one day or and then a lower fibre another day. Other things like coffee, alcohol can also make food go through much quicker as well. Um, and that's also can be quite individual and also depend on how much coffee and alcohol you've drunk.
Dr Rupy: Generally speaking, should people be going to the bathroom for their poo, I was going to say number two there, but for their poo in the morning or the evening or does it not really seem to matter?
Dr Emily Leeming: It doesn't matter. I think the only time where it might be a concern is if you're having to wake up in the night and and go and there could be something perhaps going on there and it'd be worth checking out. Especially as well that, you know, maybe there's nothing sinister going on, but it's also disrupting your sleep.
Dr Rupy: Okay. So in the context of a week, you know, there's so many things that are changing. You get stress, let's say Monday to Friday, you're stressed at work, you may have a different bowel habit. You're going to be eating differently if you're commuting into work. You might not have the opportunity to have your lovely, you know, flaxseed berry, uh, breakfast or or snacks during the day. Um, and your activity levels are going to be different as well. That's going to affect your hydration status. So all of these things, all of these inputs are going to be having an impact on when you poo, how often you poo, the type of poo that you have. And so how do we even know what's like, what's normal? I think it really comes down to being intuitive or as intuitive as possible.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, I think, you know, if you're within that range, um, you know, and obviously, I think when I'm talking about like a deviation, it's quite an extreme deviation. It's not just like, you know, having maybe going twice one day or just maybe skipping. So I think just want to kind of be clear on that. It's like if you have, you know, something where you're like, this is very different from from my normal. Um, but your body will fluctuate. This is what's so fantastic about our bodies is that they're able to kind of be in tune with the balance of and the rhythm of what's happening in our lives and to kind of just fluctuate, um, according to that as well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I've always thought it's a bit odd that when we are stressed, we go to the bathroom because from an evolutionary perspective, if you are stressed because you're faced with a predator or whatever it might be, the last thing you want to be doing is going to the bathroom, right?
Dr Emily Leeming: I think my theory is that, um, well we know there's something called, uh, you know, so you have your two modes, you've got rest and digest and then you have this kind of, uh, fight or flight syndrome. So this is kind of going back to being a caveman and thinking, oh my god, there's a tiger behind me, I need to move really quickly. Um, and what they, we think from that with stress is that, um, you know, your, your digestion is not a priority at that point. Your, your priority is moving your muscles so that you can run away. Um, and so perhaps as part of that is just, uh, everything just needs to just drop out. It's going to make you lighter. Um, there's no kind of energy or attention going to kind of holding that in. Um, you know, everything's going a little bit wonky. So I don't know, maybe in the past there was a few accidents and that was just, you know, going to make you run faster. Um, but now it's like, oh god, yeah, got to make it to the loo, quick dash.
Dr Rupy: Do you think people should be tracking their poo? Do you think there's any benefit in doing like a a seven day or a 14 day or just generally keeping an eye on how many poos you're having?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, I think, I think we should always be looking in the loo. Like, why not? It takes two seconds. Less than that. Like, that's just a nice, really easy health check. Um, look at your poo, look at your pee. Um, and, you know, if you want to track it, if you're making a change, for example, um, that could be something that could be interesting, but I don't think you have to be, um, fastidious about it. If that works within and something you want to do, you know, maybe track it for, you know, a week or two, kind of see what's happening, check in with your body and think, okay, this is what my normal is. But I think really just looking in every single day or whenever you're going, it's just such a an automatic thing we should all be doing.
Dr Rupy: I'm just thinking from the perspective of someone who is intrigued by doing a gut health test, right? Um, one that you buy online, um, all the various, you know, brands out there. If someone is interested in knowing the state of their gut, maybe the first point of call should just be doing a stool tracking, um, exercise where they record the shape, the frequency, um, over a 30-day period and try and connect the dots between, ah, I was stressed that day, or, ah, that day I didn't go to the gym, or I had two cups of coffee instead of four cups of coffee. You know, just again, like bringing that intuition to the forefront so they begin to understand about how much flux there is in their diet week to week and and how that is reflected in their in their bowel behaviour.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, tying it into that bigger piece of how do you feel? What's your energy? What's your mood? You know, what have you eaten that day? And actually kind of, I think connecting those pieces of puzzle of actually this is all connected and this is all related. Um, you know, how comfortable am I feeling? Um, and yeah, I think, I think it's, you know, we don't have to be like really, you know, worried if there's perhaps, you know, a day or two that isn't so great. Um, it's really about the big picture, uh, and the kind of most days. Um, and I think something I really want to highlight is that, you know, with bloating, I think we've got really kind of overly anxious about what bloating means, that any sign of bloating is a problem. Whereas actually a little bit of bloating in that hour after the meal is totally normal and actually, if you've had a high fibre meal, that's a sign of very happy gut microbes. You know, they're having a party, they're having a fiesta in there. Um, they're feeding on that fibre, they're making those special molecules for our health, those short-chain fatty acids. But as a side effect, they're producing gas. So that's something that actually, if that's happening, you know, a little bit after a meal, that's fine. The the problem is is if that bloating isn't going down at all over the day and you're feeling incredibly uncomfortable with that. But the benefit is that there's lots of things we can do with diet and lifestyle to help manage that. And if you're not seeing any relief from doing changes, then definitely go and see a dietitian and, you know, get some personalised advice.
Dr Rupy: Okay. So just to reiterate that, because I'm glad we're talking about bloating, it's one of the commonest reasons I feel from my own clinical practice, but also from just speaking to our community as to why people fear increasing fibre in their diet, either from the anxiety around bloating or having bloating or having had experience of this in the past. So bloating is normal after consuming food, particularly those that are high in fibre. When does it become a problem? Just reiterate what you said there.
Dr Emily Leeming: So if you've got, if you're bloated consistently throughout the day, so it's not easing and not going down, and you're feeling incredibly uncomfortable with that, and it feels perhaps excessive, you know, any of those things, you know, your body is telling you and you, you know your body. So I think that's something to then be like, actually, can I get some advice on how to manage that?
Dr Rupy: Are we talking 60 minutes, 120 minutes after eating? Is there a particular time sort of guides or?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so usually I would say like within that hour after eating, you know, it's totally normal to feel bloated, but it's not going to be one of those things that you can just like click your fingers and, you know, boom, it's gone. Um, it'll probably just slowly dissipate and then you want to see that, um, you know, your food's because your food's digesting, your food is still staying in there. It doesn't, doesn't just kind of disappear. So that process is still happening. So it won't perhaps mean that you go back to kind of a perfectly flat stomach, but it should, you know, within that hour, like really start to kind of ease off mostly.
Dr Rupy: Okay. If people are struggling with lentils and beans, um, that cause bloating, uh, perhaps we could talk specifically about the ingredients within lentils and beans that may cause those troublesome symptoms. And what are some ways in which we can ease that bloating side effect if it becomes troublesome, so it's going on for longer or becoming uncomfortable?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so some people really do find that if they have beans or lentils that, um, they find it quite difficult to, you know, digest having some discomfort and that bloating as you say. Um, and that might likely be because they're sensitive to a kind of fermentable sugar. Um, so there's a group of them called FODMAPs. And so beans tend to be like a really rich source of this. And actually like there's nothing inherently problematic in these, you know, FODMAPs because these fermentable sugars are actually really great for your gut microbiome in terms of feeding them. Um, what might happen for these group of people is that actually, um, just too much gas is produced or there's just incredible sensitivity, um, in the kind of lining of your gut that's then shooting signals back saying, oh, whoa, what's going on? Um, so what I say if someone's struggling with beans and lentils, uh, I always say like start slow and start low. You know, take a small amount, slowly increase it up, but really listen to your body because that's going to be very individual for one person to another. It could be that you're just starting with, you know, a tablespoon of beans, um, in in a day and just seeing how that goes. There are some tips and tricks to make it a little bit easier for yourself. Um, so things like getting canned beans, for example, um, or beans in a tin, that process tends to break down some of those fermentable sugars. So actually by having those rather than making them yourselves, maybe you're already doing that because it's less, you know, stressful. Um, but you can also then rinse them. So I would recommend then rinsing the the the, uh, the canned beans and the tin beans because again, there's some kind of those fermentable, uh, sugars are still on those fermentable carbohydrates are still on, uh, the outside of of the bean. So that'll make it a little bit easier.
Dr Rupy: It's so annoying, right? Because I love using the liquor, uh, that the beans have been stringing in because it's like, it's thick and it makes a lovely curry sauce and stuff. But I have noticed my wife complaining when I do that because it does cause a bit of bloating for her actually. Sorry, not to call you out, Rochelle. Um, but it's a, it's, it's one of those things that's like a trade-off, right? Um, so you lose the sort of like lovely thick, um, viscosity of the sauce, um, for a reduction in the fermentable sugars that can cause issues.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, I think it's just playing with what works for you and what what feels great. Um, and you know, as you say, your wife has a different experience to what you were having and just finding that happy compromise.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. There's an exercise for the book that I've, I've just written that's coming out in March. Um, we have a section on on gut health. Um, and the whole premise of the book is protein, not just high protein for high protein's sake, it's all about, uh, looking after your gut and looking after inflammation levels. And one of the exercises we did was to look at the prebiotic fibres in different fruits, vegetables, beans and legumes. It's so hard to find the raw data on specific sugars in different lentils and legumes. And so I'd love to be sort of a bit more prescriptive about which beans and lentils you should try first. Um, obviously rinsing them and perhaps even added some spices to help with with bloating. Um, but, uh, the reality is, I haven't come across that much data. And so I think your suggestion of just doing a tablespoon and seeing how you feel in part of your like daily diet and then titrating upwards is probably a pragmatic, um, exercise.
Dr Emily Leeming: And I think, I think you're so right on that lack of data. And I think, so Monash University in Australia are doing a lot of work in that area. And that's really informed their FODMAP, um, app that's a really useful tool for people with IBS. Um, King's College London also have a version as well. Um, and I think that's something that, you know, is quite difficult with the nutrition databases that we have. You know, a lot of them, you know, only describe, you know, a kind of a range of 60 to 120 nutrients and bioactive compounds. And we just really want to get kind of more of those, uh, that data of that breakdown of those fibre types of those FODMAPs. Um, so that work is happening, but, you know, it's obviously then making sure that, you know, other researchers are accessing it as well.
Dr Rupy: It's funny, right? Because I see a bit of a vacuum of information within the clinical world and the research world. But simultaneously, you have, uh, big companies, particularly those in the states that are marketing de-bloat tablets, uh, to everyone, but I think primarily women just looking at the marketing sort of, um, uh, graphics and messaging and all that kind of stuff, as something to take with meals to prevent bloating. And clearly bloating is an issue for a lot of people and it's not always dietary as well. I always say that like bloating can be a symptom of and it can be a red flag symptom. So always get it checked if it's a new symptom with your primary care physician. But what do you make of some of these tablets or supplements that are being marketed as de-bloat to take after, um, or with meals?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, I think there's, um, I think there's a difference between perhaps getting advice from a doctor or dietitian who's saying, I recognise that you've got issues, you know, let's, let's talk this through, let's see what strategies there are to to tackle this. As you say, it's not always diet related. And then perhaps, you know, if there's certain recommendations that need to be made within that to, um, you know, companies making any woman feel, and it is as you rightly say, that having anything but a flat stomach is not normal. Um, I think that can be quite problematic and it kind of means that, um, you know, people are taking stuff unnecessarily. We don't know whether, you know, perhaps it's a kind of, you know, likely completely harmless. Um, but I think it's something that, you know, we've got to be kind of careful about how, how are these things communicated and is it really that we need to be taking them?
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I think this idea of, um, ultra-processed foods and, um, uh, foods that are lacking in fibre and actually have additives and emulsifiers, etc, as being detrimental to your gut to cause a leakiness is something that is quite, um, a visceral sort of, uh, picture for for people. And I can, I can understand why people may succumb to this idea that even if you do all the right things and then you have something that is that negative and and something that is getting a lot of attention in the press right now, it's going to have an impact on your gut. It's going to cause leakiness. I can sort of understand why people come to that conclusion. Maybe we should come back to this idea now of leaky gut and what, what we mean by leaky gut, um, exactly, because it's something that I think is a term that is worrying for for a lot of people.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so I think what's difficult is this, this term has become almost like a syndrome or something that's been used a lot in wellness and it's like, you know, I have leaky gut syndrome, I have, you know, I have like it's got a specific, you know, um, issue, standalone issue on its own. Um, and actually that's not quite, that's kind of been kind of taken off from, you know, that usually this is what happens. There's a nugget of science and then it kind of gets spun into something else. Totally. Um, so what we really do see is that it's not about, and this is why I, I really try not to comment on newspaper, um, when I get asked for comments about foods that are quote unquote bad for your gut health. Okay. Because it's actually about the broad picture of your diet. So if you are, you know, having a low fibre diet, a low kind of high ultra-processed food diet, so like 70%, you know, on that higher end, it's not about the individual foods, then what we think, and this is kind of, uh, early science that we're really kind of seeing this. So lots of mice models and now kind of looking at kind of, um, some kind of human signals as well, is that, uh, you've got a poor diet and we know that's related with a poor gut microbiome and a kind of unhealthy kind of molecules are produced from that. What we're also thinking is happening is that those microbes can also perhaps start feeding on what's called the mucus lining, the layer of your gut. Um, that's like this kind of protective, uh, kind of duvet, um, lining your gut, lining your gut lining. Um, and so if they're starting to kind of break away at that, um, that can then mean that, um, they can start, there can be some kind of antagonization of the lining of the gut and then you can have, uh, the gut cells can start to perhaps widen and things can perhaps start to kind of slip out. Um, and we're thinking that this is why there's a relationship with the gut microbiome being an unhealthy one, being related to things like, um, depression, uh, other parts of your body being kind of less healthy. Um, because this is kind of creating a kind of low-grade inflammatory response. Okay. Um, so again, kind of early science, but really kind of that's perhaps like the mechanism of what's happening. The thing is that you can also naturally get kind of this kind of leaky gut thing happening when you do exercise, like totally normal and it will go back to kind of, uh, you know, those, those junctions between your kind of gut, gut cells will, will tighten up again. So it's, it's not necessarily kind of problematic unless it's something that is happening consistently over time and is related to having a poor diet and perhaps there's something else happening as well that is, you know, it's, uh, a disease or condition that then that's like a symptom of what's happening. Um, so that's really kind of the relationship.
Dr Rupy: So leaky gut, if we're going to use the sort of colloquial terminology that people are using online, is, um, a real thing, so it does happen, uh, and it's really about the excessive leakiness that could causes issues that could be a result of lack of fibre. It could be the result of something that is perfectly healthy like exercise. Could it also be brought on by things like stress? Do we know, is there any research looking at how stress can cause an excessive, because the way I think about leaky gut or intestinal hyperpermeability is that you need your gut to be leaky because you want to absorb nutrients via that gut lining to go into your bloodstream. Um, you don't want it to be too leaky such that you get the contents within the lumen of that intestine that can cause an immune response that is, uh, pro-inflammatory or excessive inflammatory. Um, in your, in your blood system that can set down a whole cascade of other issues. Um, and so we want leakiness but not too much and not for too long. Is that?
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, exactly. It's, it's kind of, it's similar to your blood-brain barrier in your brain where you've got, you know, little gateways that needs to be letting the kind of helpful nutrients in into your body, but also keeping the guys that are not meant to be there out. So it's not necessarily that they're problematic in themselves, they're just trespasses. Yeah. Um, because that's also a thing. Um, so I think this is going to be, you know, really, really interesting space to explore more, but I think, um, yeah, it's, it's natural to happen at various stages as you say, stress, exercise, poor night's sleep.
Dr Rupy: Oh yeah, do we have research on stress?
Dr Emily Leeming: So in mice.
Dr Rupy: Oh, in mice. Okay.
Dr Emily Leeming: So this is kind of, this is what, I mean, this is what's so interesting about gut microbiome. I think we've got to recognise like 20 years of research, you know, we are still so at this starting point. I think there are, you know, certain things that we do have kind of human trials on, but a lot of this, and like we need to, you know, mice studies are still incredibly useful. They just don't always translate to humans. And they do give us that what we call the mechanism. So what is going on? We can dive in and say, okay, this and that, that we can't always so easily do in humans.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And and going back to what you were talking about with regards to the the metabolome, uh, or metabolomics, um, are there commercially available tests at the moment that measure, um, the metabolites of our microbes? Because it sounds to me that that's going to become a lot more important than just measuring what the population of microbes that that there are.
Dr Emily Leeming: Not that I know of. I'm not so up to speed with commercial tests because I tend to not recommend gut microbiome tests, um, because I just don't think the science is there for us to give personalised advice from, um, or kind of advice that is actionable that you couldn't get from elsewhere. Um, I do think that's going to be really interesting to see, um, with that because it'll be really interesting to see, have your levels of short-chain fatty acids changed? Um, so that's, that's something, but I do think the whole field is going to start increasingly shifting more to that space and that is something that we're very much doing in research that, you know, my research at King's College London as well.
Dr Rupy: Are there drinks to help naturally look after my gut?
Dr Emily Leeming: So I always think that, um, you know, drinks are such an easy way of just adding in. So hydration for like, you know, start point, great for your gut, great for your gut microbes, you know, keep everything going through. Um, if you are having, uh, you know, if we think even just like I'm drinking some herbal tea right now, um, those contain what are called, you know, polyphenols, which are those kind of plant compounds which give a lot of fruits and vegetables their colour and they're seen as a kind of potential prebiotic, which is effectively, you know, a compound that feeds your kind of a certain group of of gut microbes to have a specific health effect. Um, so yeah, drinking, so I, I love putting, um, tea bags in cold or hot water for. So even everything if it's not herbal, it's also kind of black tea, um, have got a lot of polyphenols, green tea, a lot of polyphenols, coffee as well, really rich in these polyphenols. Um, fruit juice, actually, if you're having a small amount, also dense, densely packed. So what we say is like anything that's kind of 150 mils is considered kind of, you know, a nice little, uh, dosage. Um, so that's, yeah, a great fun way to to enjoy your drinks and and look after your microbes.
Dr Rupy: What do you make of these sodas that are really popular in the states where they're adding prebiotics to them? Because they're doing phenomenally well commercially, but I'm always a little bit sceptical of the claims personally.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, so they don't, they tend to contain about two to three grams in a can. Okay. Uh, which if you think if you think that's contributing to your fibre intake, in a way, one way you could be like, well, maybe that's good. Which, you know, nothing wrong with that. I think when it comes to the claims, when you're saying prebiotic fibre, you want to be really be having anything kind of from, uh, you know, I think plus five grams towards kind of 10 grams. Okay. Um, so whether it's actually kind of having that specific effect they're claiming for, um, I think most of the claims on products tend to not always be particularly, you know, um, but I think we've also got to recognise that there are multiple different types of fibres and actually to get fibre from a food is is far better because you're getting lots of different types of fibres and lots of other nutrients and bioactives within that. And I think I always like to say, I'm like, food contains 26,000 kind of molecules, compounds in there for your like that have, you know, that's how kind of complex it is. You know, we talk about vitamin C and vitamin E, you know. And actually, you know, there's there's thousands, tens of thousands of things going on. Um, much I'm sure we will still discover. Again, nutrition science, uh, 150 years ago, we discovered, um, you know, AD, you know, EK vitamins. Um, not to say that we, you know, don't know a lot in terms of nutrition, but I think, um, yeah, just to kind of put that in in in context.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, we need to come a long way, I think, um, in recognising the thousands of other nutrients. And although they might not be essential for life, I think they're essential for thriving for sure. Um, and even prevention of chronic, uh, long-term illnesses as a result of us living for longer. There's going to be a lot of troublesome ideas in this next question. Uh, so, so with that caveat, uh, how long does it take to heal your gut? So this is an a very common question that we get from people online about, okay, I've ruined my gut, whatever that means. I have lots of symptoms. How long will it take me to begin to to input all your advice to, quote unquote, heal my gut?
Dr Emily Leeming: Well, I actually wrote a whole review on this. So that was my, I think it was my first PhD, uh, review that got published was was on there. It was like the duration of intervention needed for the gut microbiome. Um, based on the research we have out there, we don't actually know how long it would take for someone to completely, you know, remodel and reshape their gut microbiome. And I think realistically, uh, yeah, and I think we need more long-term studies to really kind of do that of interventions, um, rather than just kind of a three-month window. I think it really comes down to who that individual is, kind of what is their background health status, what age are they, what is their gut microbiome? You know, you know, what because some microbiome might be different levels of, you know, unhealthiness compared to someone else. Um, what is their background diet that they're already having? You know, what are the other health behaviours? But realistically, you know, we're seeing, you know, going back to that, we see these changes happening in within kind of three days in terms of the research. So we are seeing significant changes within three days. Um, but the thing is, it's about small consistent changes over time. Okay. So I think, you know, realistically between, uh, you know, probably one month onwards, you're going to have a noticeable difference to how you feel. And then it's over time, you know, consistent, how long that is going to be is going to be dependent on you and you as an individual and where you're at right now.
Dr Rupy: Okay. So it can be as quick as a few days to a month to see a significant change. And just to be clear, when you say significant changes, what are we talking about exactly? Like what what is significance?
Dr Emily Leeming: So this is a thing with research. We see a lot of significance. What is meaningful from significance? Um, so we're seeing, uh, enough of a change from what you had before in terms of either individual levels of certain microbes or that diversity of having more diverse gut microbiome.
Dr Rupy: Okay. But I would say within three days, you're seeing differences in levels of microbes and then probably that diversity is, you know, more of the month mark.
Dr Emily Leeming: Okay. Well, this is where I believe the metabolomics would come in really useful here, right? Because you might see a difference in bacteria that is significant according to the current standards that you're using for a particular paper. But in reality, we're we're really, uh, uh, we're really interested in the metabolomics, the metabolites that they're producing.
Dr Emily Leeming: So we've seen, you know, studies looking at, you know, vegans versus, uh, vegetarians, um, and kind of, um, yeah, and and that their microbiome wasn't that different, but the, you know, the the metabolomics was was was actually what was the difference there. So I think, you know, it's, it's, you know, obviously you can be both and be incredibly healthy. Um, but just to show that it doesn't always tell you everything by just looking at the microbiome.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, totally. Um, okay, probiotics. You said right at the start that you're not a fan of probiotics. Are there any, are there any instances where you would say a probiotic is actually useful?
Dr Emily Leeming: So I feel like I'm not a fan for probiotics being taken for general health and wellness without without intention. Okay, okay. Um, I think, you know, if we go back to what I was saying about, you know, an apple containing 100 microbes and, you know, we have all these different things that we have going on. Um, you know, we don't know whether that actually is doing a benefit for your health and your gut microbiome. And actually they're incredibly expensive. And actually that money can be better spent for your health elsewhere on, you know, if you want to focus on fibre, it could be getting those pre-cooked bags of, um, whole grains, for example, or thinking just like, actually, I'm just going to invest a little bit more on money-wise and and what I can afford to spend on my diet. Maybe it's like just adding in another fruit or vegetable that you wouldn't normally have. Um, or just being like, actually, I'm going to have a really more like, you know, one of those fancy tomatoes that tastes delicious and like really enjoy making tomato salad.
Dr Rupy: Like Datterini tomatoes.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah. Yeah, so good. But I think, you know, the price of these probiotics, you know, they're they're equivalent to a gym membership. That's how expensive they are. So, so yeah, for me it's like actually that money can be better spent for your health elsewhere.
Dr Rupy: If it's not a trade-off question, right? So let's say we're talking to an individual that has enough money to spend. They've got a PT, not just a gym membership. They've got all the best fruits and vegetables from Natura. We're not sponsored by Natura. I wish we were. Um, you know, they've got everything. Uh, is probiotic still not a useful additive?
Dr Emily Leeming: So I think until we kind of know, I think it's so depends on what microbes are in there. So that's really key. But I think one study that I do want to mention that's quite interesting for this is like, um, they looked at giving people probiotics after taking antibiotics. They took a week's course of antibiotics. And then the people who took an 11-strain probiotic actually had a slower recovery of their gut microbiome than the people who didn't. And that's likely because they're kind of getting in the way of your kind of usual microbes coming back and and, you know, they've already kind of dominated that space and then there was some kind of healthy microbes that weren't being able to kind of restore and replenish. So I think it really comes down to this is an early field of research. We really want to have human trials on specific blends of of of these probiotics, of these strains of bacteria is what we call them. Um, and so, you know, like there's another Emily Leeming out there, we want to make sure that you've got the right one. Um, and, uh, that has been shown to have an effect for that health thing that you're wanting to look for, that health effect, and in the dose as well. And I think the other thing is that quite often, you know, there might be a study for a specific type of probiotic strain and that might be chucked in with lots of other strains, but that could actually change how it works. So I think that's it's not just a catch all. And interestingly in the US, um, they did a study in Washington DC, they did a survey of, I think it was about 93 products, um, that were currently on the market for probiotics. And they found that only 35% actually had the strains that were on the label that had, you know, scientific evidence for the claims. So it's, you know, it's it is a wild west out there.
Dr Rupy: It's very murky.
Dr Emily Leeming: I think it's a very exciting field. I just think, you know, a lot of the labour is down to the consumer to have to make sure that it's just so hard to find the right one.
Dr Rupy: So if I was to simplify it for myself, you've got issues within the probiotic strains and whether there's the correct probiotic in the actual supplement or capsule or liquid that you're consuming. There's the interaction between them and what combination there is. And then there's also where you're putting them, i.e., what is the mixture of microbes that you're introducing that probiotic or that that that mixture of probiotics into, i.e., your microbiome. These are all things that are going to have, uh, an overall, what, these are all things that are going to dictate whether this is going to have a positive or negative or neutral effect on the individual. And so there's just so, I mean, it's so individualized. I can't see like how we're going to, especially with the way we do research right now with randomized control trials, I don't see a way in which we can actually prove probiotics are having a positive or negative impact and whether an individual can deduce from those studies whether they should be taking them themselves.
Dr Emily Leeming: I think what's going to be really interesting is, um, you know, whether we'll then have, you know, probiotics that are based on the bacteria that we have in our gut. Um, and the reason I say this, if I go back to, uh, talking about that study where I talked about the antibiotics, taking the antibiotics for a week. Uh, they also took a poo sample from the study participants before they took the antibiotics. And then you kind of basically did a fecal microbiota transplant where you basically put the poo back into the person, um, after the antibiotics. And they saw close to complete kind of normal, kind of going back to springing back to the gut microbiome within one day. Oh wow. And, you know, and then complete resolvement within eight days.
Dr Rupy: So they banked their poo. Yeah. Put it into a milkshake for one of a better words and then put it back into them with.
Dr Emily Leeming: I think it was up. I'm assuming it was up the bottom end. I'm assuming it was a proper fecal microbiota transplant.
Dr Rupy: Oh wow. Okay.
Dr Emily Leeming: Um, and yeah, so I mean, obviously, don't do this at home.
Dr Rupy: Sure, yeah. But I think it just kind of.
Dr Emily Leeming: We joke, there are people doing this. I don't know if you've seen it online. There's like, you know, how-to guides and stuff. Like, definitely don't do that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, please don't because there is a lot of risk with contamination and it should definitely be done, um, you know, there are, uh, yeah, if the under doctor approval and yeah, for certain situations like ulcerative colitis, it can help to ease, um, kind of symptoms and also really important for C. difficile infection, which is like, you know, 95% resolvement from fecal microbiota transplant. Um, but yeah, I think that kind of just shows that it's about your own microbes that your body likes. Like, you know, perhaps we'll have probiotics that, uh, you know, crapules as you say, you know, you can just take a pill that's, you know, personalized to you. Um, to help support that or perhaps there's a missing one within that balance that, you know, we see is particularly beneficial for stress and, you know, we can and and we give that with the food source that goes with it, which I know we have kind of early kind of supplements that are looking at that, but I think if we can, you know, the future in 10 years have that really honed down, that would be really interesting.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean, like right now, I think we're just sort of popping pills and hoping. And I like to be really data-driven with anything I do, which is why I check my vitamin D levels pre and post having my vitamin D. And that's helped me titrate my vitamin D dose that I take every single day. Same thing for omega-3. I do an omega-3 index to make sure that I'm above 8% and I titrate my fish oil or algae oil dose upwards to meet that criteria. So I'm not too low and I'm not too high. With probiotics, unless there is a way in which I can get a like a print out of what my metabolomics is saying, and then I start introducing a probiotic alongside my high fibre diet, and then I measure what the impact of that probiotic or that intervention is, I don't think I'm really going to start messing around with probiotics because I just have no idea other than the intuitive sense that this is doing me good. But even that is incredibly subjective because of the placebo effect.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do say to people, I'm like, if you really want to take a probiotic, you know, I'm not going to, you know, just, you know, take it for eight, 10 weeks. But as you say, you're just relying on the fact is, you know, do I feel any different? Um, so yeah, it's which is very imperfect because it's just placebo effect as you say. Um, but I think, yeah, that's, that's what you can do. And I think it's one of those things also with probiotics, got to recognise that you probably do need to take it every single day because they tend to be what are called kind of transient visitors. You know, they're just, uh, rocking up, um, putting up their tent, you know, they're not kind of staying, you know, making themselves home in your gut. Uh, and then they're passing on through within three days. So they're still contributing to the orchestra of your microbiome, likely if they're having a health effect, but they're not just sticking around afterwards.
Dr Rupy: Is there any situation in which you would recommend a colonic for gut health?
Dr Emily Leeming: No. None whatsoever? No, I think actually it's doing a bad thing. It's a problem. It's a problem? Yeah, you're, you're, it's interesting because I, you know, I know people say, oh gosh, I feel, you know, 10 pounds lighter and, you know, I think it seems perhaps, oh, I'm giving a nice kind of, it's like going to the car wash or something. Yeah. Um, but actually you're, you know, you're flushing out your gut microbiome. You know, a colonic is basically you're flushing out everything that's in the rectum and then the colon, which is the, the lower intestine, which where your microbes live. So yeah, it's like giving them a, you know, a tsunami of water and, um, they're then having to repopulate from that. Um, and I think, yeah, there, there it isn't just a harmless procedure. There has been some surveys that have shown that, you know, there can be, you know, discomfort, there can even to worse, it could be perforation of the bowel. You know, there are things that and potentially also more sluggishness of the gut afterwards that could then mean that, you know, you're more likely to get be constipated.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I guess if you're flushing everything out, you don't know who's going to come back in and you don't want an overpopulation of a pathogenic bacteria that can make things worse. So I think very much probably to the extreme of the probiotic area, this can be extremely problematic for for people who are going into it blind, who have no idea what their gut is like pre or post, um, this intervention. So yeah, I'm, I'm of that opinion as well, but we still get questions about it and people to to, you know, to what you just said, they feel lighter, they feel better, they've got more energy and so it's seen as like a way in which to improve one's health. Um, but yeah, I mean, I've never come across any studies actually, it's interesting. I'm just thinking about this on the on the fly now of people who go for bowel prep before having colonoscopies because that is where you, you know, you take fleet and, um, like quite very strong laxatives. So everything is flushed out so you've got a lovely clean visualization of the gut when you're doing a telescope procedure. I wonder if there are any studies looking at that and the repopulation of the microbe pre and post and whether it would be beneficial to bank your microbes and then have it afterwards.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, I think that's something worth considering because I think they do, that's an enema, right, when that happens. It's like, so that's you're flushing out the rectum and the lower part of the bowel. So I think that's you're not getting the full, the colonic is like the full everything. Oh wow. Um, from what I understand. Um, but yeah, I think if you could bank, maybe I think maybe that's going to be the future. We're going to be banking our stool. Or we just get some what are called super donors. You know, and they're like, that's their job.
Dr Rupy: Oh yeah, tell us about super donors.
Dr Emily Leeming: So the people who are researching fecal microbiota transplants at the moment are really wanting to know, um, you know, are there certain groups of people that have super poos basically. Super poos. You know, they've got, uh, you know, a really rich, diverse microbiome. Um, they, you know, obviously we also want them, you know, they're physically healthy as well because, uh, we've really got to think with, um, fecal microbiota transplants about, um, that connection with the microbiome and the rest of the body. So, you know, we don't want to have any health conditions that could potentially all be related and tied back with the gut microbiome. Um, so yeah, there's a certain group of people that seem to be, you know, being used in these clinics that have been kind of labelled as super donors and, you know, they, um, just seem to have this like phenomenal super-powered microbiome that perhaps they'll then make a lot of money making their super crapules. Um, and, you know, making a kind of, yeah, super donor.
Dr Rupy: Well, people never thought influencers online would be able to make a living and, you know, I don't think it's far off to say people just going to the bathroom could potentially make a living in the future. They could be the production factory for, um, the most evidence-based probiotics. That's fascinating. Um, okay, we're going to wrap up today's conversation with a couple of daily habits. You kind of sprinkled them in and I think I just want to bring them all together so we can all have a look at them. So if you could suggest three or four daily habits that will make a significant difference to people's gut health, what what would they be? And I'm sure there's a lot more in genius obviously, genius gut, um, but yeah.
Dr Emily Leeming: So I probably start with the three Fs. So fluids, ferments, fibre.
Dr Rupy: Oh, lovely.
Dr Emily Leeming: So yeah, so, so hydration, fermented foods, nice little add in, um, and fibre being kind of the main primary focus. Uh, and then really thinking kind of more holistically from that. So stress management, movement, and sleep. Uh, and just really thinking how those kind of interplay. Um, and I think really like and again, going back to my kind of core philosophy, which is like, it's about adding things in. Yeah. You know, those kind of positive health behaviours that we can enjoy and have fun with without, um, making rules and punishing ourselves and kind of being black and white about things.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Um, people struggle with sleep quite a bit. Do you have any sleep hacks?
Dr Emily Leeming: Uh, so try not to eat in the last hour before bed. That's particularly shown as being, um, a problem. If you are a coffee drinker, really try and stop having coffee midday because effectively that caffeine acts to block adenosine, which is your kind of sleepy hormone. Great if you're wanting to stay awake during the day, but actually the problem is is that depending on how quickly or slowly you metabolize caffeine, that caffeine can stick around in your body for anywhere, depending on who you are, from two hours to 12 hours. Um, so that could then end up being right when you're wanting to go to sleep. And a lot of people say, oh, I'm just going to have, you know, a, uh, an espresso after dinner.
Dr Rupy: I don't know, I never understand that. I just, I don't know what, how it became a thing that we're being offered an espresso at the end of dinner, but I don't know how people can actually take up that offer.
Dr Emily Leeming: But I think, you know, and then I hear they say, oh, well, I can, I fall asleep completely fine. And I say, ah, but that's the thing. You can feel like you fall asleep fine, but actually your sleep quality is not as great. And then you wake up the next day, what do you do? You need to reach for the coffee again. So it's not to say necessarily that coffee in itself is problematic, but actually it's just thinking how you use it because it is the, you know, it's the original cognitive enhancer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah.
Dr Rupy: It's the best one in my mind. Um, and also you recently did a TED talk, um, that is fab. Uh, it was you recorded it at the end of last year, but it's just come out now on YouTube. So folks can definitely, uh, have a watch of that. And you talk about these three benefits of fibre that I really love. Fibre is like an obstacle course for sugar, fibre stretching the gut and signalling satiety, and fibre and cholesterol. I wonder if you could quickly talk us through those three benefits because I love the analogy, particularly the the obstacle course one.
Dr Emily Leeming: Yeah, I think it's that, you know, I think fibre has had this really boring reputation of being like, you know, it's this kind of stodgy mass that just helps you do a nice poo. Um, and actually, I think it's been kind of unfairly maligned and, um, uh, in the book actually, I talk about it being a bit like Lois Lane, what she thinks of Clark Kent. She's like, oh, you know, he's not very attractive. He's just a bit boring and awkward. But actually, he's Superman. You know, so I think we've got to give fibre, uh, a new lens. Um, and I think again, like thinking about the impact that fibre has beyond just supporting your gut microbes and, uh, although that's obviously a great thing, sure, um, and your gut health. So it's, yeah, it's helping to give you longer lasting energy because it effectively acts like an obstacle course for sugar, slowing its release from your gut into your bloodstream. It's also going to help you stay fuller for longer, which is great. It effectively bulks up your gut and your stomach, which then stretches the muscles of your gut to then signal, um, messages back to your brain that you're full and satisfied. And then it also looks after your heart health as well. So certain types of fibres do different things. And there's a types of fibre that help to kind of soak up bad cholesterol in your gut and so it's removed as poo, um, really helping to support your heart health. And that's one of the reasons why, um, you know, looking, eating lots of fibre is related to, uh, kind of lower risk of heart disease, type two diabetes and many other issues.
Dr Rupy: Epic. Emily, you're awesome. Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and I can't wait to see what the next research papers are like as well.
Dr Emily Leeming: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
