Georgina Hayden: I remember going straight from a shoot once to Heathrow to catch a flight. I think I was going to Vietnam. And I remember stopping in Hong Kong. Anyway, I'd kept my food styling kit in my bag, I'd just forgotten. I'd forgotten to take it out. And the guy was like, you can't go through with that. There is so many sharp objects in that thing. But it's worth hundreds of quid, right? I was like, and I was young. I was like, I can't afford to ditch it. I'm going to have to risk it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Georgina Hayden: I remember going, getting to Hong Kong and the guy just staring at me. And he's like, sorry, what is this? And I, this is really naughty, and I'm so sorry in advance. I was like, I'm a doctor.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine, and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition, and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests while we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: Well, I wanted to find out a bit more about you. Before we get on to your incredible book, am I pronouncing it right? Nistisima?
Georgina Hayden: Yeah, perfect. Nailed it.
Dr Rupy: Nailed it.
Georgina Hayden: Nailed it.
Dr Rupy: Tell me about how you got into food because I mean, your family is obviously very food orientated. Did you grow up in North London? Is that where you?
Georgina Hayden: Yeah, I grew up in North London. So my grandparents, who are still alive, they had a restaurant in Tufnell Park. So at the time in the sort of sixties and seventies, all Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, they would they sort of lived around Camden and that part of London. Real community. And both sides of my family had food businesses. So my mum's parents had a deli and they used to import all Cypriot produce. And you know, back then in the sort of sixties and seventies, if you wanted olive oil, you'd have to go to a chemist. You couldn't get it in the supermarket. Yeah. So that, that grandad, my mum's parents, they imported olive oil and olives and halloumi, feta, all that kind of stuff, which you know, you can get everywhere now, but back then you couldn't. And then my dad's parents had a restaurant for just under 30 years. My mum's parents were older, so they retired just when I was born, so I don't remember the deli, but the restaurant, my dad's parents are younger, so that was, I was around for like, they didn't retire till I was a teenager. So it was a really big part of our life. Our life revolved around the restaurant, like every Christmas, Easter, Saturday, Sunday, we were always there.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Georgina Hayden: And you know, they lived upstairs, my parents used to live upstairs, and yeah, it was just like our life, you know, I joke that my life is like my big fat Greek wedding.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Georgina Hayden: It really is. Like I've married an English guy, my family had a restaurant, I was forced to go to Greek school. Like it's, I watch that film and I have slight PTSD. I'm like, yeah, I get it. From the ethnic side, I get that so hard. But yeah, it was amazing. And and you know, it's of course, it's that's why I guess I love food as much as I do. And the that granny, she lives down the road to me still, and you know, I still cook with her.
Dr Rupy: That's amazing.
Georgina Hayden: Which is amazing, isn't it?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. That sort of cross-generational household, I think is like, it's very common, I think, as as part of like an immigrant story. Like as you're describing that, I'm thinking about my early childhood as well and like our extended family who used to like own stores and live above it. Like it's just so, so typical, like.
Georgina Hayden: Yes, totally. And I went to a really, I grew up in a really sort of diverse part of London. So, you know, in a way that actually if you were sort of white British, you're probably a minority, you know. So that sort of, I say multi-generational living and lifestyle was just really normal. Like people live with their grandparents, there was an auntie somewhere, you know. And I and I love that, and I love that they're still around because I think it's, you know, it's a real privilege to be able to, you know, learn from elders as well. Like it's it's amazing, you know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. It's strange. I have a slight connection to North London. Well, my parents are now based there, but my dad's business was in North London. He's been there for like 30 years. And I always remember going past like there's London Greek Radio sign.
Georgina Hayden: Yes. LGR. LGR.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, LGR. That's the one.
Georgina Hayden: I've been on LGR, big fan. All Greek will listen, will have grown up listening to LGR. I'm such a cliche. As a kid, I was like, LGR, why do we have to listen to this? You know, and now my, I'm like, your grandparents are coming over, we're listening to LGR. My kids are like, oh mum, I just want to listen to Harry Styles.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. It's so funny because my equivalent was Sunrise Radio. And it was it was like the worst type of like, it wasn't even FM, it was like AM, it was all crackly and like, yeah, yeah.
Georgina Hayden: It's so bad, isn't it? And the way it's all produced, you're like, there's just no fluidity on this situation, but you can't change it. It's the way it is.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, totally. I think one of my dad's first employees was Greek. And so when I was like four or five, I remember I'd go into the store, his name was Zakos. I remember him. He was like the most Greek man ever. He had like a moustache, he'd always wear like an apron, very, very strong accent. He'd always take me to the sweet store across the road and just like and buy me sweets and stuff. I remember going to, he invited us around to his house and everyone was there, the whole extended family. I can't remember exactly what we ate, but I remember it was a lot of food. It was just loads of food. It was incredible. Yeah, yeah.
Georgina Hayden: We are never, that is like, it's like a fear of like there ever being not enough food. You know, it's a real thing. Like I'm up, so I'm up north at the moment at my in-law's house and they live in Lancashire. And you know, they're English and they're lovely. And it's so funny, like I helped my mother-in-law cook a meal on Monday because all the kids came over. And she'd bought this piece of pork for the dinner. And I just started panicking. I was like, it's not enough meat, Heather. It's just not enough meat. You need another joint. She's like, what do you mean? I'm like, it's just not, you need extra. There needs, that is just enough. You know, the idea of there being just enough like makes you come out in a rash. I'm like, but what if there's not, you know, people always want more. That's just the thing. Like the Greeks just have to be, I know it's definitely like there are lots of cultures like that, but I definitely think it's true of the Cypriots for sure. Like, you know, it's that common thing. The first thing I taught my husband in Greek was the word gani, which means enough. Gani. Yeah. So like he would go to both my grandparents' houses and I'd be like, you need to know gani because they just will keep feeding you. That was like his first word. It was like, gani, gani, you know.
Dr Rupy: That's fab.
Georgina Hayden: You have to learn that, you'll be fine.
Dr Rupy: So when you were growing up in London, would you would you go back home fairly often as well?
Georgina Hayden: Yeah, we go back to Cyprus a lot. So my immediate family is here, but our entire extended family, like I've got way more relatives there than I do in in England. So we go back at, you know, probably at least once a year. And I, I, you know, I love that. I think they're, we've said, even me and my husband have said, there might be a time when we live there for a little bit. You know, growing up, it was just my granny dragging me around churches. There was a lot of being dragged around churches. But as I've got older, like I've loved just exploring the island and getting to understand like why we are the way we are a bit more, you know. But yeah, I I love going back, you know, home or whatever and understanding especially from a food point of view because that's where as a kid it's different, right? But now as an adult, my world is food. So understanding things like I didn't know growing up that the village my mum's parents were from was famous for rose water. So just like, you know, you get told stuff as a kid, but you don't care. You know, I don't care. But yeah, it's famous for rose water or just stuff like that or like the village my Yaya who's still around is from is famous for making halloumi. I mean, everyone makes halloumi, but it's particularly good. So it's just, yeah, really lovely understanding that sort of, because I think food, if you understand the food of a country, you understand the culture a lot more. And I think that's a really obvious but true thing to say for everywhere really, isn't it? So, yeah.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I I I always say that. I mean, even though like sort of my bias is towards healthy eating and you know, talking about the the benefits of food and the research behind the ingredients. I think you you never want to lose that sort of cultural element, that heritage, the celebration aspects of of food. It's so, so important. You know, it's, you know, how people say it feeds your soul. It literally feeds your soul, you know, it's part of your history.
Georgina Hayden: And also for you, I think it's really interesting what I've learned, you know, and I'm not medically trained at all, but what I have learned over the last few years, I think since having kids and just learning more about food is, you know, so my my last, my latest book is is vegan, but it comes from a a religious point of view. And what I've learned is, you know, people have asked me, are you vegan or why aren't you vegan? And what's really interesting is we are all built differently and you will understand as a doctor more than anyone. And so what I've learned about myself and my daughter, one of my daughters is that she has a blood disorder that is very typical from our part of the world. So she's got something called G6PD. And I've always battled with anaemia. So I was vegetarian for 10 years, but it didn't matter how many lentils I ate or how many supplements I took, I could just never, I could just never could get my iron to a level where I was, you know, I felt okay. And and I, you know, as a teenager and in my early 20s, I was upset that I couldn't be vegetarian, but I had to educate myself as to why. Even as a carnivore now, when I'm pregnant, I have to have iron drips just because my iron still crashes. And it's that thing of understanding where you're from to know why you are built the way you are. So when people say to me now, sometimes in maybe an accusational way, just sometimes out of curiosity, like why aren't you vegan? I would, I'm just really honest and I say, look, I'm I'm a, I'm privileged to be a conscientious carnivore. I eat everything. I eat meat in moderation, but I'm lucky that I know where I can get my meat from, but at the same time, I have to, I just, I can't be healthy. Like I just don't feel good. And my eldest daughter, we found out she has this blood condition. And it's so interesting, you know, she can't eat broad beans. How random is that? But it's because of where we're from. And I think you have to sort of understand a culture to understand why people eat maybe certain things or a certain way and not every diet and lifestyle is okay for everyone. You know, like if she was, if she was to be vegan at some point in her life, and she if she is and and if she turns that way when she's a teen, you know, I'll help her. But you know, she she has to understand that she's just going to have to eat because she has anaemia and so it's just really interesting. And I think it's really important to understand your background to to be as healthy as possible really.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, that illustrates such a good point about personalised diets and how uniformity in terms of the advice that we give to people, like, okay, everyone should be plant-based or everyone should be omnivorous or whatever. You know, it just it doesn't make any sense from a from a what we call P4 medicine. So predictive, personalised, it's, you know, preventative. It's it when I think about the food from Indian culture, just looking at my heritage myself, you know, and you look at our the likelihood of certain genetic snips, so they're called single nucleotide polymorphisms, that enables me to be able to extract the most out of things like lentils because I can, you know, and and certain types of fats from nuts as well, like the omega-3, our conversion is slightly different compared to my Caucasian counterparts who may not be able to extract the same amount from lentils and different nuts, they'll have to get it from things like wild fish, you know? And so it's it's those my new the slight differences that are very hard to tease out without looking at swaths of data. And I think what you're describing there is also being a bit more intuitive about how you feel and being led by, you know, what what's more appropriate for you, particularly at different stages of your life, like pregnancy, postpartum, post-menopause, all these different areas. I mean, we're so different.
Georgina Hayden: It's so, it's so true. And we are, you know, and I think it was interesting writing that book because I lived and breathed it for a long time and I was eating the food I was cooking, so I was predominantly vegan, but I did end up quite anaemic as a result of it. And it's, you know, the idea is that Orthodox countries because there's such strong faith, when they're before the big festivals, so before Easter, Christmas, and there's one in August, the assumption of the Virgin Mary, they give up all animal products. So like my AR, who's who does it very strictly, very religiously, she, she won't eat any any animal products for 50 days before Easter, 50 days before Christmas, and two weeks in August, every Wednesday throughout the year and every Friday. So if you count up, it's like 200 days a year, or more, you know, like there's Coptic Christians in Egypt that it's more. So anyway, but that's, it's a really interesting way of living. When I first started writing the book, I just, I wanted to write a book which was celebrating vegan recipes from countries that just, they just eat that way, not making them vegan. But then as I got into it, I just thought, actually, this is really fascinating because people think of Greek food as very meat heavy. You know, souvla, yero, all these things that we know are sort of junky food. But actually, because of the way we eat religiously, if you go to Greece or Cyprus, you can easily eat vegetarian and vegan, very easily in fact, because they eat that way 200 days a year. It's the other 150 days a year where they eat meat. And that balance is also, it's interesting that now we're trying to replicate that by doing things like Veganuary or meat-free Monday or, you know, so where maybe religion is less prevalent in our society in the West at least, we're now trying to replicate these practices of cultures and communities that are have been doing it for religious reasons. So I come from it from a very unbiased viewpoint in terms of religion. I don't, there's no preaching at all. I don't, it doesn't matter what you do. But it's just interesting, isn't it? Like that's just the way, you know, she will eat lentils and pulses and vegetables for over half the year, and then the other half of the year she eats a bit of meat. And it's just, you know, it's fascinating. I think it's really interesting.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that that balance that you find when you look at sort of traditions, it never fails to amaze me. And that's why like I always get all these I told you so's from my family because it's like, well, I told you fermented food was good for you. I told you that turmeric was great. You know, I you know, I said that you should have your lentils and your rice and all these different ingredients so you get all your nutrients and you eat the rainbow and all that kind of stuff. I was like, yeah, okay, yeah. I mean like, you know, we're really standing on the shoulders of tens of thousands of of uh years of just like tweaking, you know, changing this and being a lot more intuitive, you know.
Georgina Hayden: Well, like guys, we've discovered this thing. We're so clever because we figured out if you eat this way or you eat these things, you feel really great. And our ancestors are like, you just discovered it, you know. It's so funny. I'm like, oh, the penny's just dropped. You eat a plant-based diet and you feel really good, but then occasionally you might have a bit of meat. Oh, that's interesting. That could work, you know.
Dr Rupy: So Georgia, tell me a bit about your experience in in kitchens when you were when you were growing up, you know, with your family and and and the food. What what was what was that? I've got this image of you like, you know, being roped into the kitchen and roped into the, you know, the restaurant and you know, doing weekends and all that kind of stuff.
Georgina Hayden: We were quite my, our kitchen was like, you know, it was something out of like a comedy. My gran and granddad would be shouting at each other in Greek. There was a lot of, it was very fiery, very tempestuous. Me and my sister were never really trusted with very much. We were allowed to fill the salt and pepper shakers or put the paper tablecloths on the tables. My sister, there was, I don't remember this. I think I must have been too little, but do you remember Shaken Vac? Do you remember that stuff?
Dr Rupy: Oh, yeah, I remember that. Shaken Vac. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Georgina Hayden: So we were in the restaurant and there was, the restaurant part of it must have been, it was carpeted, part of it. You never have that now really, but I mean, you know what I mean, like that's, you know. So it was carpeted and my sister was getting the salt shaker, she's older than me, she's four years older than me, and she's really cheeky. And she was going around the restaurant going, you do the Shaken Vac with the salt. Anyway, my Yaya is quite a character. She's very fiery, she's brilliant. She came out and she started shouting at Lulu going, what are you doing? There's salt all over the floor. And I think just because I was so used to being like, you know, her, her dog's body, I just apparently went, it was me. And my Yaya was just like, sorry, what? And my sister was sat there with a big smile on her face. And she was like, I know you did it. I know it. So we weren't really trusted with very much. We were always getting in the way. But it inevitably rubbed off and then, you know, like just watching my Yaya cook all the time. And then as a teenager, it was really funny. I think because food was such a big part of our life and it was so ingrained, I didn't really think that that's what I should do for a living. I just thought everyone was obsessed with food. So when you know, you're at school and they're like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I was vaguely, I was, I was academic and I didn't go to a great school. I just went to a very standard sort of state comp. And I was quite academic and they were like, you know, you should do more academic stuff, blah, blah, blah. I was like, yeah, yeah. They're like, you could do something creative, history of art, fine arts. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I used to have a farmer's market stall in North London making cakes and breads and salads and at the age of like 18. It still didn't cross my mind that I should probably work with food. I was like, yeah, yeah, university. So it wasn't until I went to university that even after having a farmer's market stall and this family restaurant that I was at uni and all these girls around me were reading Grazia and Hello and all those, you know, OK or whatever. And I was just binge reading Delicious. Delicious had just come to the UK. And because it's Australian, right? And I, it had just come to the UK and I was just sat there in my final year at uni and I was like, I should, I should probably do something about this. So I wrote to them and I said, can I come and do work experience? They said, yes. You know, nowadays it would be like a wait list, I'm sure. And I and I went on my first photo shoot and I, I just had this real epiphany that I was like, this is what I should be doing. It's, I've got this creative side to me, but I love food. And there are people that write recipes and cook them for photography and telly. And that was it. I was just like, hook line sinker, you know, I was obsessed and I was like, that's, that's the career for me. I just, you know, I knew it. It took a while, you know, it clearly took a while for me to get there, but I think when something's so almost so obvious and such a big part of your life, maybe you don't see it, you know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Georgina Hayden: Yeah, food was so important to us, but I just thought it was the same for everyone and it clearly wasn't. Maybe it is, maybe they're not as obsessed. They sit there reading magazines. I think I think people that listen to your podcast probably are the same as us.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, they definitely are. I mean, I we did a poll recently of people's sort of culinary confidence in the kitchen and how experimental they are. And they definitely lean more towards the sort of like foodie spectrum of like, you know, I I I want to learn new things. I I I'm, you know, probably a subscriber to a bunch of these magazines like Olive and Delicious and Bon Appetit and all that kind of stuff. So definitely that well with a sort of health slant to it as well. So it's a little like healthy foodie tribe.
Georgina Hayden: It's so good that it's become so much more sort of common place. Back then, so I started in the sort of food styling world when I was, so it must be 17 years ago. You know, and if I said to people back then, you know, I'm I'm a food stylist or I'm an assistant food stylist, they would say, you know, what's that? And I, oh, I remember being single and going into bars, you know, you'd meet a guy and be chatting. If I wasn't particularly interested, I would lie. I would say, oh, I'm a teacher or I'm a student because I couldn't be bothered to have to explain what a food stylist was. I was like, oh gosh, I'm bored already. You know, so whereas I think nowadays, especially people that are food focused, you know, most people know, I think they understand the industry a lot more. So it's a much easier place. But back then it was like, you know, what, you use mashed potato for ice cream, you know, stuff like that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Oh, I suppose, I guess, uh, the show that you were a part of as well as one of the judges, um, you know, really opened a lot of people's eyes as to, you know, how a book is actually created. I remember a lot of people who they reached out to me afterwards and they were like, oh, so that's what you do when you do a book. And I was like, yeah, man, it's a whole thing. I'm like the least important person there. There's like the stylist, the prop stylist, the photographers, the editors, stylists, all this kind of stuff. So, yeah, I know, I I guess that shed even more light on it, right?
Georgina Hayden: Yeah. I think it's really good as well because obviously, you know, cookbooks in terms of published, you know, the publishing industry, they're expensive, you know, to purchase a cookbook on the whole, unless you get a deal or whatever, you know, at full price, a cookbook is more expensive than, you know, fiction or, you know, any sort of literature. And it's because there's so much involved, right? The author, like you say, I mean, of course you're the most important bit, but, you know, you're only one part of the team. You know, you've got the photographers, the designers, the stylists, you know, and it's such a collaboration. And it's so fun as well. Like we were saying before, it can be quite isolating in our industry. You don't get to sort of collaborate very, especially writing a book, you know, you're often at home on your own or in the kitchen on your own. So when you get to the the making of the book stage, it's so nice because you're there as a team and the team hopefully believes in you and want to create something beautiful. So it's so nice. And I know you had amazing David with you as well. You get great people like that. It's really inspiring. But yeah, I think the show sort of helped as well and I just think we're all a bit more, you know, people like seeing whatever it is, people like seeing behind the scenes of things, I think now. I think back in the day, especially with food styling, it was very much, um, so so basically when I left uni, I went back to Delicious for a year and I worked at Delicious and Sainsbury's magazine. They were all one publishing house at the time. And I was there for a year and it was that when I was on a shoot for Sainsbury's that I met Jamie Oliver's head food stylist and she's still with him. She's amazing. And they poached me. So I ended up working with Jamie for 12 years and doing all his telly, all his books and all that stuff, which was amazing. But you know, it it changed so much by the time I left and even now. And I think because of social media, we like to sort of flip the camera around. We like to see how things are made. You know, back then there was such a, and Jamie was not like this at all, but generally the idea of perfection in photography and and, you know, I mean, ads on telly are still quite mental. They're probably, they were probably my least favourite thing to do just because of the it's just, it's quite mad, like what goes into, you know, the supermarket Christmas ads, I won't name supermarkets, but you know, those 15 second ads that we all love and, you know, drool over at Christmas, they take about a week if not longer to film. It's mental. Yeah. You know, I remember once going and your food styling kit for those situations is like a doctor's kit. It would be a range of tweezers, razor blades, syringes. And I remember going straight from a shoot once to Heathrow to catch a flight. I think I was going to Vietnam. And I remember stopping in Hong Kong. Anyway, I'd kept my food styling kit in my bag. I'd just forgotten. I'd forgotten to take it out. And the guy was like, you can't go through with that. Like there is so many sharp objects in that thing. But it's worth hundreds of quid, right? I was like, and I was young. I was like, I can't afford to ditch it. I'm going to have to risk it. I remember going, getting to Hong Kong and the guy just staring at me. And he's like, sorry, what is this? And I, this is really naughty, and I'm so sorry in advance. I was like, I'm a doctor. I love that. And he just looked at me and was like, okay, yeah. Okay. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh, you know what? You had to do what you had to do in that situation. Nobody got harmed. I can't, man. That cost me such a lot of money. And I was such a, I was a kid. And I was like, I can't afford to throw all these tweezers and stuff away. I think I did have to ditch the razor blades, but that's fine. But you know.
Dr Rupy: That's brilliant. I love that story. That's awesome. So so so you worked for for Jamie for you must have learned so much at that HQ working with all those like incredibly creative people and and and Joe himself. Um and and then then did you make a conscious decision to go out on your own and and do your first sort of books and and and create your own brand and?
Georgina Hayden: Yeah, I left Jamie's, I'd already written my first book and I knew, I had a two book deal, so I knew I was writing the second one. And it coincided with me having my eldest daughter and I was just like, and he knew, like, and I'd been honest with him. I was like, you know, once Persephone comes along and whatever, and he was so, he's always been so supportive and he still is. He's such a great mentor. So I was like, I need to go on my own now. You know, I've got the security blanket of having one book under my belt. I know I've got another one to write. It was still very scary, you know, the idea of being freelance, I was petrified, but you know, I did it. And like I said, he's always been really supportive and and also what an education, you know, like working with with him for 12 years and then meeting people like Antonio Carluccio and Gennaro and working with such an amazing range of people like Anna Jones was, um, we were there at the same time. So when we filmed in LA, like Anna and I had a flat together, you know, I met so many cool people and had such a nice time, but I think it was the right time to go solo and sort of work, yeah, just build up my own stuff really. Um, I don't think I've ever, I don't think especially back then, I don't think I was particularly like, maybe as savvy, you know, like I'm not, I'm always sort of just treading water a bit. But my dream has always just been to write books. So, um, like even the telly stuff, I, I didn't do telly for ages because I was like, I don't want to do it. I I don't, I wasn't particularly very confident, I think. I just thought, everyone would say to me, you're very chatty, you'll be good on TV. And I was like, no, I don't, I'm not a, look at me, I'm not TV worthy. And I,
Dr Rupy: Oh, don't be silly.
Georgina Hayden: No, I mean, like, especially in your 20s as a as a woman, and you know, I didn't see anyone like me. I was like, no, no, no, no. The only women on telly were like Delia and Nigella and I was like, well, I'm clearly neither of those. And I think it's, you know, it really helps to to have people to look to. So I didn't do telly until Taverna came out and I did a bit of Saturday morning telly, like Saturday Kitchen and Sunday brunch. And I was like, actually, I really enjoy it. Like, it's just really nice. And I think having a range of voices is just really important, isn't it? Like, whether that's from a a sex point of view or an ethnicity point of view or or a class, whatever it is, I think it's just really good to have a range. And I just, I feel really passionate about that. And I really enjoy telly. I actually really like live telly. Do you agree?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I know. It's so weird. I was going to say that actually. Like, people always, uh, like, they they message me after they see me like doing ITV or whatever. And they're like, how do you do that? Like, how, are you nervous? Do you not get like scared? I'm like, actually, no, I really enjoy it. It's I I love the thrill of like having those seven minutes. Someone in your ear saying you're halfway through and then like, you know, you get thrown a random question by the presenters and you're like, it's all right, I've got this, you know. And you've got your pans going and you're in your, it's kind of a bit like, you know, rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time when you're when you're cooking live telly. But once you get used to it, it becomes really enjoyable. And I and I see that in in you because I was fortunate enough to have my first set of kitchen appearance with you. And you I I you must have done it a bunch of times because you were like, I looked at you and I was like, okay, yeah, she's got this. I've got to get to that level.
Georgina Hayden: You know what? I it's, I've done it a couple of times and it's nerve, it is nerve. I think Saturday Kitchen, I probably get out of all of them, it's probably the one I get most nervous on because it's, it's also you're on for the whole show. So you, you know, you can't have a resting B face. You can't be like, you know, you've got to be switched on. And, um, whereas, you know, like the other ones, you like say you get seven minutes. But it's, it is, it's fun. And you know, you you you see that clearly, like you're so good. But it's there's something like in terms of pre-record stuff, like doing the show with Jamie was amazing, but very different, you know, 18-hour days, lots of doing the same thing again. Whereas live telly, like I just think especially if you work in a kitchen, it sort of appeals to the nature of those people because we often tend to be people that maybe like doing things ad hoc and not being so scripted. So it's really, it's really fun. I do like it. And just stuff like this is good, isn't it? It's lovely.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I know. Yeah. I I think like having a range, and I think one of the great things about being a creator, cookbook author is you get the chance to dip your toe in a whole bunch of different arenas, whether that's live TV, pre-record, podcast, long form conversation, all that kind of stuff, which I love because I'm sort of that person that needs like constant um uh inspiration from various sources and like, you know, just just variety basically. But I I wanted to talk a bit more about Nistisima because you've got some beautiful photography in it and actual like uh scenes from the the places that have like been your inspiration for the food. And I remember you saying something about how you had, was that your launch event, how you had like all these like priests and stuff on like a WhatsApp group. What's it tell me a bit about that. That that's awesome.
Georgina Hayden: Oh, honestly, because I wrote it, I got the book deal before the pandemic. And I, and I was pregnant. And then the pandemic hit and I was like, well, this is going to be interesting to write this book. And, you know, so just to give Nistisima a back story, but when I was doing all the publicity around Taverna, because of the way society is now wanting to eat more plant-based stuff, the question I kept getting was, are there vegetarian and vegan recipes in the book? And actually there's loads in Taverna. And it often then led to this spiel that I would give saying, well, actually, a lot of people don't know that Greek and Cypriot food is very vegan because of religion. And I kept saying this and I just turned to my publisher, I was like, listen, it's getting ludicrous now. Like people keep asking me, I feel like I need to write this. So she was like, do it. So I was like, yeah, I will. And, and the timing was terrible. And, and I got a grant from the Guild of Food writers. I was generously given this grant to go and travel and anyway, obviously I couldn't. And so I was like, so how am I going to write this during a pandemic pregnant with a toddler? And I just had to, um, well, I worked my arse off and I just had to reach out wherever I could. So I made lots, any connections, I did shout outs on social media, I asked friends, I asked relatives. And through all these connections, I found various people. So, um, a friend of my sister's, they're very religious and they even visit a very beautiful monastery in Lebanon. They gave me the details of this monk, this priest there who, um, has kindly been conversing with me on WhatsApp. So Father Augustine, shout out, what a legend. And I've got a recipe inspired by him in the book. And then so the epicentre of sort of Orthodox faith is a place called Mount Athos. You should totally go because women aren't allowed, right?
Dr Rupy: Really?
Georgina Hayden: Yeah, it drives me mental, but it's quite, you know, honestly, in part of your, at some point in your life, in part of your research or studies, you should go. It's called, it's called Mount Athos and there are hundreds of monks and priests that live there and they're completely self-sufficient, pretty much. And you can only access it by boat. And it's really incredible. Like it's really, if you Google it, like it's quite remarkable. And anyway, they obviously this is their diet and there's a lot to be said about the diet of the Mount Athos monks. So I was, I basically just emailed all of all of the churches there. I was like, guys, right, I'm Greek, this is what I'm trying to write about, who's going to help me? And then so I was conversing with a couple of the monks there in Greek. And then I think I said this to you at the, I said this at the book launch, but it was really funny. There was this one priest, this one monk I was trying to chat to. And, uh, and I, at the time I had a very tiny newborn baby and this toddler. And, you know, my timings were all over the place. And I was trying to pin him down. And I was like, right, can you do this day, these times, because I know I've got help. Any of these work for you? My, this is like Tuesday 9 o'clock, Thursday 10 o'clock. He was like, by the grace of God, we will speak. I was like, faith, I'm with you. I'm with you there. However, this is my iCalendar. We never spoke on the phone, put it that way. But it was, you know, it was amazing. And then, and then, you know, through social media, I met some really amazing, um, mostly women actually, like sharing their grandmother's stories with me and whatnot. And initially it started with Greece and Cyprus, but I didn't want it just to be Greek Cypriot because the Orthodox faith goes far and wide. So we we went to the, you know, Middle East and then sort of Eastern Europe. So topically, Russia, Ukraine, and then, you know, Serbia and any of the countries that connected. And yeah, it was amazing. So I just had to do what I did as as creatively as I could. And it was right at the end, the book was about to go to print and they just lifted restrictions. And literally, I think we were two weeks from print day and I said to them, guys, look, I have to use some of this money. So all the photos in the book that are in church are an Orthodox church in London. So we have an amazing church locally, very beautiful Father John who, whenever I put him on Instagram, I don't mean to be crude, but a lot of people go quite gaga for him, bless him. And, and then we managed to get to Cyprus right at the last minute. And I said, please, please, just hold print for a couple of weeks. And I went to this amazing convent, which is famous for being self-sufficient and spoke to the nuns. And so the last recipe in the book, it very sort of appropriately because it was the last thing that we shot and the last thing that I wrote was inspired by the nuns. And it's very simple. It's just how to make your own cordial, you know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. There is this picture that I'm trying to find that's in this like monastery. I think it's at the front, I think. It'll be sort of towards the introduction.
Georgina Hayden: Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, I remember coming across it. I was like, it just looks so beautiful. It was, yeah, there you go. That's like these images here. If you're if you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see it, but it's um it's it's wonderful. And I I think definitely for the for the next book or books that you do, uh more of those sort of images would be wonderful. And I also noticed on the on the inside, you've got all the different countries. And I was, yeah, I was surprised to see like Slovakia, Serbia, Russia, Ukraine here. Like so this sort of influence of the, is it Coptic Christian?
Georgina Hayden: Orthodox. Orthodox.
Dr Rupy: Orthodox Christian. That this sort of practice of 50 days before Christmas or 50 days before Easter, I'm assuming this is sort of across all those regions. So all the different food inspirations is not just Greek Cypriot or it's it's a whole bunch of different cultures that you've included in this.
Georgina Hayden: It's been important to me to include all of those because whilst obviously Greek, you know, Greek food is my centre, it's actually these are, and the thing is when I first started looking, like I got messages from, I got a message from a woman in Kerala who was like, we're Orthodox over here. And I was like, listen, it is killing me because I would love, love, maybe that's book four or five. I would love your Orthodox Keralan recipes. How incredible would they be? But, um, I felt like I had to streamline it somewhat in terms of geography. And it's sort of that, those countries felt natural because they're all neighbouring countries. And, you know, and also, as is the way with food, there's a real, there's a real journey. So things like moussaka, whilst, you know, we over here, I think people associate moussaka as a Greek recipe, we you can picture it, you know what I'm talking about. You know, all over the Middle East and even Eastern Europe, they have different versions of moussaka. So it's called maghmour in in the Middle East, and then even if you go to like Serbia and they have their own version. So it's, it's really, it's interesting how it or stuffed vine leaves, you know, Turkey, dolma, Greece, we call them goubebia. And in every country, it'll be a different protein or it'll be a different spice blend. And it's just that sort of, you know, and I I never get into arguments about these things because how can you pinpoint? I mean, there will be some things of course you can, but I think recipes like that, as with our sort of, as with people, they travel, you know, and it's just so interesting seeing the transition, the change of how these recipes, you know, change over the over the countries and the influences. So, um, like I love the fact that in Eastern Europe, a lot of the the what we call goubebia, the vine leaves will be like fermented cabbage leaves or especially in places like Ukraine and Olia Hercules writes about this, you know, the bleak winters, they have to make do with what they can and they use the fermented cabbage leaves or whatever. So it's just really interesting. So it was important to me to sort of look at all those countries really. And then get the stories from different people. I think that's the other thing that's really important. If you're writing about other people's food, especially I think now what we're sort of seeing in the food world is it's really important to do your research, to speak to people themselves, not just to go on Google or read something. You have to really do your due diligence. And I think that's really important. So I was gutted I couldn't travel more than I did, but it did make researching the book really funny.
Dr Rupy: And I think just to that point actually about cultural heritage and and as recipe writers, I know for me in particular, I write recipes from a from a mixture of different cultures. One of the sort of um challenges that I I love to to sort of entertain and and and rise to is making healthy food applicable to the very diverse population of London, right? So I have Korean people coming to my my clinic, Sri Lankan, uh different parts of Africa, you know, just just everywhere. And like they tell me their recipes and I rewrite it back to them with like healthier twists, turning up this, turning down that, etc, etc. But I think this whole concept of ensuring that we are being respectful of people's cultural heritage, particularly in in books is is is very topical, but it's super, super important. How do you, for for any people who are writing recipes out there, how how do you feel this is uh a subject to sort of to to tackle? Like what what are the sort of key things that people should should really be looking at? You you mentioned one of them, which is obviously go go to the source as much as possible and
Georgina Hayden: I think that's the thing. You know, it's a hard one. I've been asked this when the TV show came out, there was um one publication that asked me, you know, can English or Caucasian people write about other countries, you know, other communities and other other foods, ethnicity foods. And I and yes, they can. Of course they can. And equally, someone from, you know, um an Indian food writer can write about Italian food. That's not to say you only can write about the food of your country because also it's not that, I mean, that's boring, right? Like people travel like we say, it's interesting, it's ideas. And that's the beauty of food. But I think there are some writers who just do it so well. Like if you're going to write about, you know, if you're going to really write about another country or another culture, you have to submerge yourself in that culture as much as you can. And you have to be authentic. So and I don't just mean, I mean travel, of course, but also talking to people, you know, being educated on stuff like that. And I think that's really important, eating a wide range of foods, not just writing, I don't, I mean, of course this happens, but not just writing a recipe because you've seen it somewhere and you're going to copy it. As a as a book writer, I think that's really important. I think when you're a magazine writer and you're given a brief, and they're two very different things. So people that write about books, you have such a responsibility on your hands, I think, to do a good job and to tell the story well, because there will if you have the privilege of writing a book, there are always people behind you that don't have that privilege who might have a better voice or a more educated voice. So if you have that privilege, you have to do a good job of it. I think the difference is things like magazines, because when you work on a magazine or you're a magazine recipe writer, you are asked to write a really wide range. So I appreciate that you can't always travel or whatever. But you just have to be really educated. And I think the good thing with social media is, um, we can now interact and follow people cooking and talk about different cultures and stuff. And I think just if you are doing that, just, you know, don't be don't be stupid.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Georgina Hayden: I know it sounds really basic, but just don't don't be stupid. If you are going to go there, like do your do your homework, really, you know. And I think it's it's just as basic as that. And if you're going to go to the extent of writing a book about it, then by all means, you need to be paying your dues. But like I say, that is any any, I do firmly believe that anyone can write about anything. And I think that swings both ways, because I think there's backlashes from both ways, but I think we can all write about what we want, but you just have to make sure you do the research. Because I, you know, I want to write about Italian food or Indian food or, you know, Southeast Asian food. Like I love those kind of foods. Like my weakness is Indian food. Like if I was never able to write about that again, it would kill me because I, whilst my books, my last two books are sort of Greek and Mediterranean, I've been trained to cook from all these sorts of cuisines. So, you know, but I just think it's about being respectful.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I I can so see your next book being going to Kerala. Honestly, like I would love that. I would absolutely love to read that.
Georgina Hayden: When that lovely lady reached out, I it's like someone stabbed me. I was like, I knew I could, you know, like it would be too random. At that point we'd figured out that we were sort of specializing on Eastern Med and and Middle East. And I was like, but come on. But the thing is, of course, I don't, you know, it would be amazing cuisine, but at the same time, as you know, like Indian, especially in the south, like there's not masses of meat anyway, you know, like it's sort of it wouldn't be hard to write about all that fabulous food really, would it?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, I mean, like I think it's something like 30% of the population, which is like a billion people are vegetarian or vegan. So, you know, the wealth of variety that you have across the entire country is just amazing. I I've wanted to do, maybe maybe not a book, but like um a series on YouTube or something where I literally go from the top of the country, Punjab, which is basically where my my heritage is from, and just traveling all the way down, meeting various sort of food writers and researchers along the way, and then just sort of speaking to scientists from both the conventional and the Ayurvedic tradition of medicine, because in India, I'm not too sure if you're aware, but like the conventional and complementary medicine sort of sit side by side and they're both both government state funded as well. So there's a yeah, it's incredible, which is this beautiful like amalgamation of of both sort of sides with equal respect. And I think that's something we we sort of, I think we're coming around to it here, but we've definitely, yeah, we're definitely slow for that sort of appreciation on on both sides. So I'd love to do a series like where we do that and then we also like cook the food as well and you know, we get
Georgina Hayden: You have to do it. I'd love to do that. That would be so amazing. And if I could just come to Kerala and and chat to this woman and chat to you about the Indian food, I'll be there. But that like that is, I would so watch that. That for me, and I don't think I'm being biased because I I love the, you know, the food and the culture and the country, but that's would be fascinating. Like how cool would that be? It'd be such a good thing to watch. And also you're so right about medicine. I I, you know, I'm lucky enough I've been to India a few times and I do find that fascination, you know, the way they do combine both, you know, the medicine. I think over here we're so, we're so like Western medicine and that's all. Anyway, I mean that's another whole big conversation, but I totally agree. Like I'm having issues with my littlest one at the moment with her eczema and all the every specialist I've seen, every doctor just wants to put her on steroids. I'm like, she's a baby. You know, and it's like actually, come on guys, let's think about this. Let's what do we know about gut and things and and okay, you know, anyway, boring, but that's my point. Like there's always more to it. And I think people other cultures are such better at questioning, seeing the bigger picture than sometimes we are, I think. We just want to put a plaster on it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Georgina Hayden: You know, like, yes, that steroid cream will help her, but there must be, you know, anyway.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's definitely not boring. And this is certainly the audience and I know people are like dying out for sort of a
Georgina Hayden: I'm not asking for medical advice. I'm not asking for medical advice.
Dr Rupy: No, no, of course not. No, no, no. But it's that thing like as a parent as well, I'm like, come on, like she's her wrists and stuff are bleeding. Like I I I know the steroid cream works because I've been in the position where I've had to use it, but there is more to this. I know this. It's my it's my job. Like I know there are things that are triggering her. But it's so black and white. It's like they do the tests and they're like, well, she's not allergic to peanut. I'm like, yeah, that's great, but and I've learned just through doing what I do and understanding about food, I've learned that tomatoes trigger her. Because they're acidic, you know, like I know, but they don't tell you because it's all very black and white, isn't it? So.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it can be. And I think there's definitely like that way of um taking uh a holistic approach while still appreciating that in the in the first instance, yes, okay, we're going to dampen down the inflammation, use steroids, use systemic steroids sometimes if we need to, if it's really bad, but we're also going to try and investigate the underlying cause, whether that's a food trigger by doing food diary, looking at the family history, you know, the things things like mode of birth and exposures, the exposome is a really, really big topic. We're actually going to be talking about on the podcast hopefully soon about air quality in general, but also other, yeah, other, well, I mean, it's tough, isn't it? Because like it's a scary topic, but no one's really talking about it other than in the context of like ULEZ, which is which just pisses people off understandably, but at the same time it's like the WHO levels for air pollution are exceeded three times over in London alone, right? No one's really talking about that. And we should really, given that we know what these pollutants can be capable of. And it's not just like scary things like cancer, it's like other things like asthma, respiratory conditions, and inflammation in general. So, yeah, it's it's a definite topic. But in terms of childhood eczema, it's a growing issue and um we actually tackled this in a topic with a a colleague of mine who's looking at other ways of um exposing kids. It's more in the context of um allergens, but exposing, putting in micro exposures and then like increasing it over time.
Georgina Hayden: They were doing that with peanuts, weren't they? Because my husband's allergic to peanuts and stuff and they were saying that they with kids they're slowly giving them very tiny doses. You know, it's not, I don't think it's a coincidence that we went to, we were travelling around the Greek islands in the summer and her eczema went.
Dr Rupy: Oh, absolutely.
Georgina Hayden: You know, like I just, I don't think that's, anyway, so you're completely right. I don't think that's, you know, just a coincidence.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. We we can we can definitely chat about that as well. No, no, for sure, for sure. And I I like people uh they on my newsletter, people request podcast topics all the time and we have like this massive long list of things that we need to approach. Like we've done quite a bit on menopause at the moment, but we have things like osteoporosis, we have dementia, uh eczema is definitely up there, childhood eczema. We've done adult eczema and we've actually done a a really good podcast with Dr Ruth Kamish who um who talked about uh steroid overuse syndrome. Um she's really, really good and someone I I always recommend people to actually because she's a a patient herself and I think that makes the the best doctor.
Georgina Hayden: Yeah, because you understand it and coming from, I'll have to listen to that one. It is, it's just really interesting, but I think, you know, we it's good that we are starting to have these conversations and but I think, yeah, we need to, you know, especially like you say generationally, like people like my parents or my in-laws, you know, they go to the doctor and it's very, it's verbatim, like what they say, like that's, it's what you do. Like they wouldn't think outside. I remember when my other granny, bless her, God rest her soul, she, um, I was in my 20s and she suffered terribly with arthritis, bless her, but she was very stoic and she would never moan, ever, ever, ever. And there wasn't much that could be done in terms of her pain and just to sort of help her. And she would just hobble around and she would never moan. And I'd said to her a few times, go to an acupuncturist, I've got this lovely guy, let me take you, let me take you. Anyway, one day, no complaint, she just turned to me and she said, I think I'd like to try. She was obviously so desperate. And you know, this is a an 80-year-old Greek Cypriot immigrant, that is quite out there for her, acupuncture. And she went and she did the six sessions and and genuinely, a few years later she said, I think we need to go back. And that to me said everything. It helped her in a way that nothing the GP had given her had helped her. And and that that says everything, you know, and I just think it's so, it's so interesting. And actually the only reason even my family were doing acupuncture was because we were lucky enough to have this brilliant Indian doctor growing up and my mum, he used to do acupuncture on my mum, the GP.
Dr Rupy: Really? That's so good.
Georgina Hayden: Yeah, I was like eight or nine and I remember being in the GP's waiting room with my mum and him putting needles in her. You know, and that's in like the late 80s, probably early 90s. And I just think, what, you know, at the time I was like, cool. But now I'm like, great. What a legend. Brilliant that he did that, you know. And so yeah, it's it's just it's just changing, I think people's attitudes and perceptions. You know, you'll you'll have the right audience because they're interested because and that's why they listen. But it's the people that aren't, you know, the ones that like my mother-in-law who we're desperately trying to get her to acupuncture and you know, come on, it can help, you know.
Dr Rupy: For sure. Yeah, and you can find it's a bit of a postcode lottery at the moment because you can find acupuncture in some NHS surgeries that are covered by the NHS. Um but someone who's really spearheaded this uh is Dr Michael Dixon. He's got a surgery down in Devon. Um but he's really influential. He he's got sort of connections with with the royals and stuff and obviously Prince Charles is quite into a lot of this stuff. Um but uh he managed to get yoga, I think on the NHS and a and a whole bunch of other sort of complementary uh uh treatments. So, no, it's it's it's great. It's definitely happening, but it you're right, it's it's sort of slow. Um listen, we've been chatting for a while. I could chat to you for so much longer, honestly. I I love it. I love your enthusiasm for food. This is sort of a slightly out of the norm for the for the pod, but equally as important, I think, because you know, otherwise we'll just be talking about like research and nutrition, but your book really puts a lot of what we talk about into practice with, you know, the incredible mixture and diversity of food. I've got this thing, um uh the uh uh sweet and sour leaks. That's on my list. Yeah, yeah. And there's a batata hara, chili dressed potatoes. These, these are definitely on my on my list.
Georgina Hayden: You know what, it's so easy. They're so easy. And that's the thing with that book, like they're just recipes that are vegan. I'm not trying to make them vegan. I'm not using, like and there's that's cool. There's a time and a place and there are some fantastic chefs and bloggers doing that. But these are just celebrating recipes that are vegan. And I think, you know, it was so cool, you know, you having me on here has been such, you know, such a privilege and such an honour because obviously you are, it is more medical stuff, but I think in terms of diet and health, it has been really interesting to write and relevant. So thank you.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. No, no. And I love that. It's, you know, vegan and plant-based dishes that are have always been vegan and plant-based. You're not converting it. It's not like, you know, there's a big meat stew or something. Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. Yeah. Thank you so much, honestly. It's been such a pleasure, Georgie. A wonderful. It's awesome.
Georgina Hayden: Oh.
Dr Rupy: Thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast with Georgina. She is epic. You can find the links to all of her books and all the other wonderful stuff that she does on the doctorskitchen.com/podcast page. And whilst you're there, you can sign up for the Eat, Listen, Read newsletter. Every week where I send you a recipe to cook, some mindfully curated media to help you have a healthier, happier week, and a joke to put a smile on your face. I'll see you here next time.
