Prue Leith: Because obviously parents' instinct is to say, "I I'm that's my bit, that's my job. I'll I will decide what my children eat." But I think it's part of education. I think you don't have any say in the maths curriculum and you shouldn't have any say in the eating curriculum.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine, and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition, and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine, and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition, and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
On the show, we have probably one of the best-known faces in the culinary industry in the UK today, Prue Leith CBE. I had the absolute pleasure of working alongside her on our new Channel 4 programme that's out. And she's probably best known for her role as a judge on the Great British Bake Off, but she has had the most varied and interesting life you cannot imagine. She grew up in apartheid South Africa, witnessing her mother struggle with her campaigns against the injustice. And then she went on to find her love of food and fashion in Paris. But she's also led a campaign for contemporary sculpture to be exhibited on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square. She's published eight novels. She's written 14 cookery books. She's obviously started a successful restaurant and cookery school business, one of which was Michelin-starred. She's adopted a child from war-torn Cambodia in the 1970s, as well as her more recent work, championing better nutrition in schools and becoming an adviser for the government's hospital food review. A wealth of experience and at 81, there is absolutely no stopping her. And I must read her autobiography, Relish, and you must watch her documentary with her daughter, Li-Da. It's one of the most touching documentaries I've ever seen, and she really does allow herself to be vulnerable in that programme. And by her own admission on the programme as well, she's not someone who cries. And she she blubbers throughout the whole thing, and you can tell why. It's just such a touching documentary. I'm not going to say much more because I just really want you to listen to this from start to finish. Please do enjoy my conversation with Prue, somebody I'm privileged to call a supporter of my mission and also a good friend.
I want to start by talking about your experience. I mean, you've been in the industry for a number of decades. You're one of the most well-known faces of the industry. But where did that love of food come from? What what sparked that interest right at the start?
Prue Leith: Well, I was always a greedy child and we ate very well in my childhood, but I was brought up in South Africa and we had a cook. I mean, in South Africa, colonial times, it wasn't actually a colony, but it was felt like that, white people were very privileged, black people had a horrible time. But we had a wonderful cook who was Zulu, called Charlie. And he had been well-trained and he he just I I mean, I'm ashamed of it now because I'd never realised what skill went into it. I used just a black hands put wonderful food on the table and we gobbled it up. But we had no I had no conception of what cooking involved. And it never occurred to me or to my parents that I would be a cook because sort of privileged white young women went to university and they didn't, nobody said be a cook. And so I wasn't until I got to university in France where I was studying French and French culture and civilisation that I fell for food because it's very difficult to live in France and not get interested in food because everybody talks about food all the time. And in my childhood, nobody talked about food, it was considered slightly vulgar. You didn't you didn't talk about money, sex, food, religion, politics. I don't know what the hell you did talk about, Rupy, honestly, because those are all the interesting subjects. But I mean, I think we talked about the theatre and because my mother was an actress and my father was in business and but we did not talk about food. But in France, everybody talks about food. The taxi drivers talk about the best restaurants, the metro workers really care about where they're which which little cafe they go to and they I mean, everybody knows what the best restaurants are, where the and the, the chefs are even then, they were really interested in where their raspberries were grown and who raised the best ducks and so on. So I suddenly realised it was a serious subject and one that I was obviously interested in. So I decided I'd be a cook.
Dr Rupy: And so where did you train then? Did you...
Prue Leith: I came to London because I couldn't afford to, I wanted to go to the Cordon Bleu in Paris, but I discovered that it was it was quite funny actually. I went there with a friend and I got my father to agree that we could do this course at the French Cordon Bleu. And we turned up and we paid what seemed to me a huge amount of money, and they were told to come back in a month's time and when the course started. And so we turned up with our little we had sort of frilly mob caps and and aprons and and we turned up and they said, presented us with an even huger bill. And we said, but we've prayed already. But now I could speak French because I'd had a month of intensive French. And they said, that was the deposit. I hadn't done I hadn't understood. I'd only paid the deposit. So I couldn't afford it. So anyway, I remember my friend and I, we walked out of the Cordon Bleu, it's in the Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré. And we walked down the street, which is a very fashionable fashion street. And a few little cafes and we slipped into a cafe and sat at this table. And we had become aware that there were two really cool guys following us. So we skittled into this cafe table and they skittled in after us. And there followed a month of the most, I mean, that was really good for my French because that's what taught me French was this boyfriend who was a French circus performer or something. Anyway, he he was a juggler. So I got taught French by a juggler. So I had a month of that and and then I went to the Alliance Française to help my French and then I went to the Sorbonne. And all the time I was very interested in when I was a student and we were queuing in the student restaurant in the Cité Universitaire, which is the sort of campus for the Sorbonne. I saw, you know how the French have first courses which are little dishes of, carrot rapé and little chickpeas in a salad and a few beans on a plate. And there were all these little first courses and I saw one of them was just about three or four radishes, you know those French breakfast kind of radishes with pink ends. Very fresh with the leaves still on, three or four radishes, a screw of salt in a little bit of paper and a blob of of butter. And a piece of bread, a baguette. And I said to this guy next to me, I said, 'Qu'est-ce que c'est ça?' What's that? I've never, that's not food, that's that's not a first course. And he said, 'Oh, it's delicious. Just try it.' And he so we sat down together and he taught me, he said, 'Take the radish, smear it through the butter, dip it in the salt and put it in your mouth and follow it with a piece of bread.' And it was utterly delicious and it really taught me that really that good ingredients need no messing around, just eat them. So that was my first gastronomic lesson.
Dr Rupy: That is that is brilliant. I mean, I can I can imagine it with me now, the thought of you just having such a simple plate and it being completely revolutionary. And and was was France almost where you wove your two loves of fashion as well as food? Because you, you've you're known to be a very fashionable woman.
Prue Leith: I know, that's so funny, isn't it? Because I've never thought of myself as fashionable at all. And I just like bright colours. I'm just quite in your face, fairly vulgar really. I don't I don't believe in cool grey and cool beige and you know, I I mean I think some women look fantastic just in a sort of creamy white and gold necklace and very subdued because they they just look so elegant and so smart. But I look ridiculous in that stuff. I when I first met my husband, which was only 10 years ago or 11 years ago, when he asked me out for a date, I thought I'd better be very cool. And so I got dressed up in all the greyest, beigest things I could find. And all gold, and we went to the pub and he said, 'Why are you wearing all that stuff?' He said, 'When I met you,' which was at somebody else's house, he said, 'you look fantastic.' And he said, 'What's with all this?' And I said, 'Well, I'm trying to impress you.' Fortunately, he likes colour too. And but I've never I you know, when I was a when I was a child, fashion, nowadays, two-year-olds start to fuss about what they're going to put on. And they only want those wellies or they only want that jacket. But until I was a really grown up, I never ever thought of matching anything with anything. I just took the top pair of shorts off the pile and the top t-shirt or whatever it was and that was I just took whatever was there. And I'd never worried about whether it went with anything. But as I've got older, I really I love colour and I love and I'm rather boring about it. My daughter used to say to me, 'Mum, why do you always, why are you're so matchy-matchy? Everything, if you're wearing a blue dress, you'll have a blue...' well I'm wearing a blue top at the moment and I've got a blue necklace on and blue earrings and blue specs. It's the easiest way to dress. I just pull out all the things that are the right colour. But but she says it's, you should have clashing colours, not matchy-matchy. And but I'm helped now these days because of I have a stylist now for for Bake Off. And she's become a great friend. So she, I've now stopped shopping altogether. She just buys stuff that she thinks I I would like because she knows me well now. And and so it's fantastic. When we have a fitting or, we're talking I'm having to do some film stuff and so I don't even have to go to the shops. I mean, even pre-lockdown, I didn't go shopping. She shops and just takes away everything I don't want. It's it's amazing.
Dr Rupy: Wonderful. I I I must say your your husband is pretty bold to say he didn't like your outfit on your first day.
Prue Leith: Well, I think he might have put it more tactfully. I really like what you were wearing the other day. I can't remember. Anyway, but he is, he is very outspoken. I mean, I have a a range of of necklaces and earrings now. And and I try to mostly wear my own range because especially if we're doing something, if I'm doing something public, because I'm sort of advertising my own range. And there's some things he says, 'Why do you, why are you wearing that?' He says, 'I I preferred the...' he often buys me stuff in street markets and we travel a lot or we used to before lockdown. And so I've got necklaces from South America and from India and from the Far East and from South Africa and from Nairobi, from Ethiopia. And and they're all wonderful, but he gets quite upset if I just wear my my range and not not all but I I do wear everything. I just like I have I have a wall, a whole wall of he he made me some metal trees. You know, like those sort of trees you see in gifty shops to hang earrings on. Well, they're like that except they're four foot high and four foot wide and they're two of them. So they take up a whole wall and they have they have nothing but necklaces hanging on them. They're about 200 necklaces. I mean, I couldn't wear all my necklaces in a year, I don't think if I wore them all once. And then and my excuse for this is to say, 'Well, it's a hobby and it's art. This is art on the wall,' because they do look amazing. And I'll send you a picture if you like and you can stick it on the podcast. And and then he and then he saw that all my bangles, and there are lots of them, were just in a basket and you have to rummage for them. So he built another one of these metal trees, but it has poles, it's two trees with poles across like a ladder. And the poles are made of rolling pins and he just painted all these rolling pins black. And I so all my watches and necklaces and bangles go on there.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, so they really stand out against the black background.
Prue Leith: Yeah. It's so it's brilliant.
Dr Rupy: Anyway, I'll send you a picture because it might be fun to put the picture on the podcast. Yeah, definitely. I love this insight into your wardrobe. It's brilliant. I didn't think we were going to go there, but that's great. You you you mentioned your your husband's quite outspoken, but I noticed that, your writing, particularly of late, is it's really direct and it's sort of unapologetic. Have you always had quite strong views about things that you've been comfortable expressing? Was that something that you've developed a habit for later?
Prue Leith: Well, I suppose I probably got I've got more strident as I've got older or more but I've always been quite bossy. I mean, my my parents used to call me bossy boots. And so I think I have always been a bit opinionated and and bossy. But I I've been writing, I mean, I've been working as a sort of journalist part-time ever since Paris. I used to write a column for the Johannesburg Tatler from Paris, which is quite fun, which is quite funny to read them because I was only 18 or I was 19, I mean. And they're very sort of gushy because I'd never been out of South Africa. And the thing, the freedom of it was just so amazing. And I was the first time I was away from my parents, I was living an independent life. And of course, I was away from apartheid, which was what was so interesting because it never it hadn't occurred to me in all my, you know, I I came from very liberal parents and my mother campaigned against apartheid and all the rest of it. But I still accepted the fact that my nanny had to sit at the back of the bus and I could sit at the front of the bus and things like that. There I was in Paris, sitting at, a cafe in the Boul'Mich or something. And students would plonk down next to you. And there would be a couple of Algerian students or Moroccan students and we'd all be eating couscous together. And I was thinking, I'd be arrested for this in South Africa, just for, this guy wouldn't be allowed to sit on the same bench as me and I wouldn't be allowed to have any kind of relationship with anybody who wasn't wasn't white. Extraordinary. And so it wasn't until I was really grown up that my sort of political conscience woke up. Anyway, and I I just think there are some things which are seriously wrong and and it seems to me because I'm rather simplistic that the solutions are much simpler than people think. You know, if you take I mean, they're not really simple, but the it's either they're simple to say. I mean, take food, for example, and children getting obese. Um, the simplest thing to say is they need to change their diet. Changing their diet is of course much more difficult because it's more about persuasion and you're not going to get people to eat things they don't like and all the rest of it. So it seems to me that the the really, the most effective way, it needs to be a whole lot of things, of course, it's about education, it's about making things easier and and, some some legal things like advertising and so on, you can you can fix, but what really makes the difference is if you can train children when they're corralled in school and you've actually got them and they can't go away. If you can make them like a healthy diet, and that whole generation grows up liking a healthy diet, it'll be much easier to get the next generation to do it and they will influence their children. And so, I'm always my principal thing is that schools have to take a sadly because of course in an ideal world, this would be the parental job. But we've lost two or three generations of parents who can't cook, who don't know anything about food, who've lived on junk food all their lives. So they are not the ideal mentors to teach their children how to like a healthy diet. So if we can get um, I mean poor old teachers, they get lumbered with everything. But but while they're at school and and for the thing they've got on their side, if you if if they take food seriously and they teach children about food and about nutrition and where it comes from and they teach them to grow, and lots of schools do this now. And they and they feed them only healthy food and and make sure that they can't eat junk, at least while they're at school. Of course, you can't control what happens out of school, but if you can use that time at school as a lesson so that the lunchtime is doesn't doesn't feel like a lesson, it feels like a nice thing to do. They sit down and they eat, they all eat the same food, obviously except for diets and allergies and so on. Um, and they know what they're eating, they know why they're eating it. And schools that do this say that the the difference in their academic performance is remarkable. A term of good eating will make a fantastic difference to kids' concentration, to their to the um results they get at school. And the teachers that have realised this, the heads that have realised this and think that's one of the ways to improve my league tables and get stuck in and do it, become completely convinced by it. So, of course, I want that to happen all over the place. And recently, I've been in the press a lot for, which of course I didn't exactly say say it like this, but the headlines are all, 'Prue Leith wants to ban school lunchboxes.' Well, of course, I would like to ban lunchboxes for the simple reason that if children arrive at having a school lunch, they won't eat it if they're not hungry. And if they're full of chocolate and biscuits and stuff they brought in, and there are very few parents who pack a healthy lunch box, unfortunately, because they've got their kids nagging them, can I have this, can I have that? So I'm I'm I mean, this is not rocket science. Um, in this is what they do in Finland. Every child sits down with their teachers. They know what they're eating. They spend two weeks, I think, or a week or two weeks, I can't remember, in the kitchen um, helping the cooks cook. The food comes in freshly. It's the equipment is fantastic. The environment where the children sit is a really nice place to be. Um, and they they do batch cooking so it arrives on the cafeteria thing all fresh. Um, just recent, just cooked, and it's delicious. So that the children love it. So when I say ban lunch boxes, the before you can do that, you have to get the food really delicious and very healthy. You have to get the teachers on side. You have to get the parents on side. And parents, funnily enough, are easily persuaded if you take the trouble to persuade them. I mean, I know a school in London, a primary school who were the caterers were going bust because so few children had school dinners and you need about 200 children in a primary school who take school lunches in order for the the the money to work out for for for it to them to break even. And these children, they only had about 100 kids taking school lunches, but there were 250 children in the school. It wasn't a big school. And what the head did is he got all the parents together and he said, 'Look, we have it's a choice. We either close the catering and give all the kids who have free school meals, of which they're about half of them, um, we give them a sandwich and an apple in a in a packet, but nothing hot. Or everybody comes and has school lunch and I just, you know, and we all agree that. And they all agreed because they were persuaded that wouldn't it be nice to be able to go to the supermarket with the children without them nagging about what went into their lunch boxes and saying that they wanted chocolates and so, 'I'm sorry, it's not allowed. Can't, school doesn't let it.' So they got persuaded and it was remarkable because it made a huge difference to the children's um, attendance and their um, and their results and the atmosphere in the school and all the rest of it. But they had to persuade the parents. Because obviously parents' instinct is to say, 'I I'm that's my bit, that's my job. I'll I will decide what my children eat.' But I think it's part of education. I think, you don't have any say in the maths curriculum and you shouldn't have any say in the eating curriculum. But as you can see, this is quite extreme. Yeah. But you know, I mean, I know schools that have, I know two other schools, um, one, a school in Oxford, which is entirely vegetarian. And very healthy and they do a lot of um, other food studies and growing and, you know, food politics and interesting, they just make kids interested in food, that's the interesting thing. And um, the other one is in Sheffield and they have fish on Fridays because the head is convinced, and actually he's right, that fish is very good for the brain. And so they have fish on Fridays, but they have vegetarian food the rest. And I went there for lunch and they were having tacos. And they had, they could fill them with anything they liked. And there were lots of different things. Most um, all vegetarian, but they were delicious. They were like Ottolenghi salads. You know, they had butternut squash and garlic and um spring onions in one and they had, some little curry, chickpea curry thing in another. They had a whole lot of different things and salady things. And I said, 'How can you afford to have pineapple and sweetcorn in the salad? I mean, that's very expensive.' And he said, 'Because we don't buy any meat. He said, meat is what costs too much money. Vegetables are basically much cheaper.' And if you if you don't um, buy any meat, then you can on on on a budget, I think it was about two pounds, they were getting two pounds 80 um, that was the charge, the cost of the of the for the parents, and about half of that goes on food. And so in their food budget, they could afford to have red peppers and sweet corn and and interesting stuff. And then they all, everybody sat down to lunch, all the teachers, all the caterers and the children. And they um, and then they had a conversation, um, which the head led. And the kids could jump up and talk about anything that they wanted to, and some of them were talking about politics and history and stuff. It's a secondary school. And some of them were talking about um, the food and um, what they liked and what they didn't like and could they have? It was a sort of huge discussion. And I thought, I just want every secondary school to go to that school, every secondary school head. Because if the head isn't convinced, it doesn't matter how good the food teacher is, she won't get, for example, taking cookery lessons. Rupy, just stop me. I'm on a sort of roll here, so if you want...
Dr Rupy: No, no, no, go ahead. I'm I'm loving this. It's making my job very easy, Prue. You carry on.
Prue Leith: Just gabbing away, gabbing away.
Dr Rupy: You said your own solution was extreme or might have been interpreted as extreme, but I think we're living in such outlandish circumstances where the rates of obesity are so high in this country and and others as well. We're one of the worst in in in Europe. We have a damaged um, food environment where it's easier and cheaper to have the high calorie, low nutrient-dense foods than it is the other foods that we know we should be feeding our children. And I think it almost requires a radical solution, one that you've just described where we have a largely vegetarian system for children, supplemented with fish. Um, you have food politics being discussed and you have nutrition firmly on the curriculum. I wonder like, it's very simple to say that and I know people might be thinking, you know, we're just sat here talking through the lens of privilege, but this is very actionable as you've just stated some examples in schools in the UK but also in Finland.
Prue Leith: Well, interestingly, Finland had exactly the same problem as we have now. I mean, to be honest, my experience of Finland is 10 years out of date, so I honestly don't know what's happening now. But by and large, those Scandinavian countries are much better at this than than we are. About 35 years ago, Finland had the highest um, obesity rates in Europe because they had recently changed from a culture where everybody was out in the freezing cold shovelling snow and walking to school and at best a bicycle, but certainly not a car. And so um, so the whole nation could, it didn't matter that they lived mostly on protein like those northern countries do, reindeer meat and and lots of butter and and beef and cheese and a lot of fatty and and high protein and fish, lots of fish. So they um were definitely eating more than they were burning. because life had changed and it was now more sedentary and they had cars and they had central heating. And one of the things people don't realise is that cold is what, being freezing is one of the best calorie burners there is. You go for a freezing cold walk, it's not the walk that's doing it, it's the cold. Anyway, um, so they decided as a government that they had to do something. So it started with government and they got a lot of experts together and they realised that in order to really change the culture, they had to um, tackle, they tackled parents, grown-ups, workplaces and um and schools. They they complete, they decided that as I would like, that food was to be integrated into the curriculum entirely. So that, the sports people would talk to the children about um, the diet and sport and hydration and all that stuff. And in history, they'd learn about the history of food. I mean, most wars are all about food land and and stuff. And they learned so in and in science they'd be doing nutrition. So that it was embedded in the whole curriculum. They also decided to spend a lot of money on the environment that the children would be sitting in. So the dining rooms and the kitchens were really, the kitchen I went into, and I think it's pretty standard, is the equipment was fantastic. There was no frying at all. There was no deep fryer, there was no surface cooking. Everything was done in either tilting kettles, which are like big stir-fryers, like big um, bowls that are heated and jacketed and they move all the time. So you can make soups and and stir-fry stuff. So a lot of fresh veg and things would go in there. And then and then they had very good um, combi ovens and everything's and trays of food that would be going into there. And those those combi ovens can they can roast, they can shallow fry, they can um steam, they can do anything. So they spent a lot of money on kit and they halved the number of people that worked in the kitchen. And so from the financial point of view, they actually didn't, you know, the the the investment was worth it. And I think it took three years to for to pay for the initial investment simply on the wages because they needed much less stuff. They decided the children should help with the cooking so they should understand the process, help with laying up. They decided meals had to be a social time and they actually have it in their in their statement of the curriculum that that although lunch is a a lesson, it's a a time for relaxation and um restoration or something. And that it should be a pleasure. So um, they just did, so they did schools very well. They also from the parents' point of view, there was a lot of public information went in and they made vegetables and they subsidised fresh veg in um, shops and um, taxed um, meat and and dairy much more highly. And what else did they do? They they did things like clearing paths in the winter so people could get some exercise and they they gave them some people subsidised um, a kind of things like clogs really, but that didn't slip on the the ice so that because they found that a lot of old people didn't go out because they didn't want to slip. So they did something about it. They put exercise parks into the public parks so people could get onto machines and anyway. So they did the thing from top to bottom and it worked. And they got their obesity rates right down. I mean, when I was looking at it, they were, we had an obesity rate at that time of wasn't, today that doesn't sound so terrible, but I thought it was pretty terrible, was about 15%, but of course it's now 30% or something. Um, but we were about 15%. But they got their rates down to 1.5% for 1.5%, I think 1.5% for children at school and 2% for adults. So they really did it. It took, it took a while, but they did it. It'd be interesting to follow up and see what they're up to now. And um, you know, so there are examples, but it does take political leadership. And one of the problems is we've had lots of um, good initiatives in schools and there are terrific initiatives now, like Chefs in Schools, which puts chefs into schools and does exactly what I've been talking about. Um, you know, they don't just cook for food, they teach the children and they sit down with them and so forth. And um, but these are generally charities. The best stuff that goes on is led by a charity. And of course that'll never do for, you know, you're never going to get the whole nation um, you know, it's like in prisons, all the best initiatives seem to be done by arts charities or food charities or something. So we it doesn't it doesn't really work if you don't get government commitment. And and from just those examples that you've described...
Dr Rupy: I mean, you've talked about them a lot on your blog and then in magazine articles as well. Um, because you're a prolific writer, not only...
Prue Leith: I bang on. I do bang on on this subject, that's true.
Dr Rupy: which is great. But you know, it strikes me as that we need a a huge cultural change and it starts at schools. I completely agree, you know, with the creating a new generation of children who are food literate, who understand the importance.
Prue Leith: Also pre pre-birth. I think there's a marvellous opportunity because all pregnant mums are anxious to do the best they can for their children. And they do get advice from um, antenatal clinics and so forth, but I mean, that's a really good moment to to try to to influence. But of course, it's really difficult if the mums themselves are living on chips and...
Dr Rupy: Absolutely.
Prue Leith: And they're good reasons. I mean, there are good reasons to live on chips. You know, if you're, if you don't have a lot of money, it's the cheapest and most delicious thing. So it's really hard to change an adult's diet because they're, once you're grown up, you're in charge of your own life and you don't want, you resent interference. And you think, well, it didn't hurt, I've I've actually often talked to people who say, well, it's the they're sitting there seriously overweight and obviously not well and puffing to get up the steps. And they'll say, well, it never did me any harm because you're instinctively protective of the decisions you've made. You don't want to admit that you've made a bad decision. And of course, once you are, I think people are not sympathetic enough to people who are seriously obese or overweight because I mean, you're a doc, so you'll tell me if I'm right about this, but it seems to me that one of the problems is that if you are already very overweight, you have this huge body which is demanding to be fed. And so you're hungry all the time. You're much hungrier than you or I am. I mean, I'm a lot fatter than you are, so I presumably am slightly more hungry than you are. But if you're, if you're skinny and um, very, of course you get hungry, but you don't you don't need to eat all the time. And if you're very overweight, you have to keep that body going.
Dr Rupy: I did a podcast episode on this very fact actually, because everything you've you said there is completely correct in that obesity isn't isn't a a general lifestyle choice, it's it's literally a disease where the bigger you are, the higher your your weight set point and the more hunger the hunger hormones really, really do go into overdrive, particularly if you try and diet using a calorie restricted approach. So you can lose weight on a calorie restricted diet, but your hunger levels will go through the roof. And and I think you're right, we need to come at this through a real compassionate lens and give people the tools, whether that be through government schemes, improving outdoor gym access, all the the the subtle touches that you just described there that Finland did as well with, you know, brushing down the the paths so that they can go out and and subsidising clogs that are are actually, you know, those little nudges are super, super powerful at a population level.
Prue Leith: If you've got limited resources, I don't want to say we should give up on the grown-ups because of course we shouldn't. But if you have limited resources, the most effective way to use them is on children because a, they're more receptive because they, especially in primary school, they're really want to please teacher. You know, there comes a time at adolescence they definitely don't want to please teacher, but they want to do what teacher asks. And they are very easily influenced by their peers. So if you get, I've seen it in many primary schools, when they have very good um, meals and very good food teaching, um, year seven children coming into the um, secondary school say, um, if they, if the year seven child has not had a good diet, but comes into a school where the year eights are eating um, everything they're given, they will follow suit. Children do what other children do. And I just see, I would like to put a programme together that just showed all the best little practices that happen in schools. One school I went to in Hull, which is a primary school, the elder children were um, standing behind little ones and helping them with a knife and fork, show them how to use a knife and fork. Because these children, you know, they've they went to the school at five, I think in those days. Now it's mostly four, but they they arrived at five, but nearly all of them because they were in a very poor area, had been brought up on handheld food. So they couldn't use a knife and fork. And these elder ones really enjoyed teaching them how to to do it. It was too sweet. And um, I said to that teacher, that head teacher who was a who was an Italian woman, I said, 'You know, this is so fantastic because all your children will, because you you the whole of their primary school life, they're going to have had nothing but good food from you. So they will know about good food. And when they grow up, they'll they'll go on eating it.' She said, 'Well, they'll probably come back to it,' but she said, 'believe me, at secondary school, they won't be eating good food.' I said, 'Why?' She says, 'Well, there's only one good secondary, there's only one secondary school around here. It takes all the primary school children from all these estates around where they were.' And she said, 'They there are 1100 students in that school.' And the head teacher's attitude is that it's he, there are there I think she said there are nine gates to the school because it's an enormous school. Um, and she said at break time, he just opens the gates and the chip van comes up. One chip van to each gate. And they just um, feed the kids chips. And she said, 'You know, it's all the chips you can eat for a pound. It's half the price of a school, half the price of a school meal.' And um, so of course they, that's what the children eat. And she said, 'Anyway, any little boy who, you know, age whatever, 11 or something, says, um, you know, I I want wants to eat vegetables.' She says, 'The older boys will tease him or, you know, he'll be ribbed rotten. He'll give it up immediately.'
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it has to be sustained and it has to be everywhere. I think you're so right about using an ingenious way to tap into the psychology of children whereby they like pleasing teach, like you said, and they like copying from their peers and and they respond to, you know, subtle peer pressures or extreme peer pressures as well. So there's definitely something in that in in making vegetables the thing to do, to please teacher, but also to to, you know, be reinforced in your social groups as well. And you know, I think the the pandemic particularly poses an opportunity to to really think about some radical change in that respect. And the the primary aim is to address food insecurity and that's something we've done on the podcast with a number of different charities. And it's amazing and you said it right there as well about how the best work appears to be through charities because they truly, truly care and they're not wading through this, you know...
Prue Leith: Bureaucracy and...
Dr Rupy: a mountain of bureaucracy, exactly. Yeah. So and and a TV programme on that, I think would be would be wonderful, Prue. You should definitely work on that because it would be super uplifting.
Prue Leith: I'd love to do it. It's it's so and because I've been at this game for, 50 years or something, so I've seen things come and go. And um, and some things have got better, definitely, and some things have definitely got worse. And I think that ultimately, um, one of the serious problems is the snacking culture is the fact that manufacturers are going to win this battle because in a way, the government's got its hands tied behind its back because they get a lot of tax out of chocolate and and ice cream and and all the things that make us fat. And they're all delicious and they, you know, the cheapest snacks are mostly made of fat, sugar and salt and there's the three things we should really not be having too much of. And so, you know, manufacturers are going to win. They have a bigger budget per day than I had when I chaired the School Food Trust, which was the government body trying to fix school food. They had, I should think, let's take Mars bar. I should think the budget for Mars bar for one, for just for that one product, would be greater than my whole annual budget for 20, for 20,000 schools to try to change the culture. And and also they're starting from the fact that everybody loves um caramel and chocolate and whatever Mars bars are made of. They don't necessarily love, they don't necessarily love cabbage and carrots.
Dr Rupy: So I mean, I I do I do think that nobody's facing up to the fact that...
Prue Leith: ...we're not going to win this um, unless without government intervention. I mean, we got when we had the School Food Trust, we did get um, junk banned out of vending machines in schools. And because at the time, children were living entirely on vending machines. And now, of course, we're trying to get vending machines to sell healthier um, options to your lot, to NHS staff. Who who, by the way, we should talk about them. I mean, when you think that a nurse or a carer does a 12-hour shift, so there's no time to shop, no time to cook, and they're exhausted at the end of it. So of course they live on chocolate bars and vending machines and there are some hospitals, I regret to say, which still have no nothing hot and nothing healthy that the staff can get. And the theory is, well, they should bring in their own packed lunch. But when are they going to buy the food for it? And when are they going to shop, make it when they're on a 12-hour shift? You know, we have to have places in hospitals where nurses can have a break, um, and enjoy it. Sit down in a decent, not in a corridor, not in the cloakroom, but sit down in a a nice sort of lounge atmosphere. And have really good food. And the same with the patients, you know, we need patients to have delicious um, but anyhow, the good thing is, and we go go back to this thing about governments. Um, we've just done the the the National Food um hospital report, you know, hospital food report. And it had, it has eight recommendations to it. And they are about staff feeding and about equipment in kitchens, refurbishment and kitchens being closer to to the patient. They're about more delicious food, but they're and they're seriously about um, the nutritionist, the nurses and the caterers working together instead of against each other. And and um, and it's about lots of technical things that can be done and so on. So anyhow, there are eight recommendations to improve hospital food, including one recommendation which is that there should be a body to drive it forward. Because it's all very well having a wonderful report, it's all very well government saying, 'Yes, that's fantastic, we'll do it.' But unless they a, put the money there, and b, have a somebody who's responsible for making sure it's delivered. So we've got all this, it's all happened. We we've the eight recommendations are there. We've got an expert panel. We've got hospitals signed up that are very, very good and do all or almost all of the recommended behaviours anyway, to help other hospitals which are struggling. And so I'm really hopeful. But what I fear, because I've seen it happen with the School Food Trust and I've seen it happen many, many times, is government will change, priorities will change, the money will be shifted to something else and it'll die a death. But so far, the cheerful thing is, and I know I'm always fairly optimistic. I think that for the first time, we've got a government that actually understands the importance of food. I mean, everybody says that's because Boris Johnson got COVID and so he's realised that there's a connection between being overweight and not and having a bad time with COVID. Well, I'm sure that's something to do with it, but before that, Michael Gove, who's rather keen on the environment, had set up the National Food strategy, which um, Henry Dimbleby has been um, leading. You should have Henry on, he's been really, really interesting. Anyway, his his his remit, and he's his report, we've had half of his report already, but there's another half coming this later this year. And his his recommendations have to cover food and farming and um, the environment and imports and exports and and education and everything I've we've been talking about. So it's a huge thing, but at least it shows the government realises that food is central to the nation's health and happiness and trade and everything else. Food is a huge bit of our trade. So hey, that's happened. The the, you know, we've had the hospital food report and now we've had the obesity strategy. So they at least are aware. I just hope they are, they stay aware and that all governments, you know, future governments realise that this is a long-term battle. But governments tend to want to have new things and they don't like um supporting anything that their predecessors supported. So I'm a little bit nervous.
Dr Rupy: I think this is the issue when you don't have immediate cross-party buying to all of these different things and people want their own new shiny new strategies such that they can put that on, you know, the next election campaign trail or slogan or whatever. And I think, yeah, it's it's really uh reassuring to know that this isn't just a review, this is actually something that has a a panel and a body and a review. But like you said, you know, you've got to be cautious about that because you know what happens with, you know, the school trust and everything.
Prue Leith: But I do think that the hospital food review um, stuff will be implemented because for example, quite a lot of the recommendations will now go into the planning for the for the 10 new hospitals that are to be, I forget how many there are, but in the next 10 years, there will be a lot of new hospitals. And all of those will have kitchens close to the wards so that you're not having this two-hour wait in a trolley whereby whatever went in comes out inedible. Um, so you I think that I really do think this is a moment to improve hospital food. And I think if we can, if we can get hospitals realising that it's such an, it's a quite an easy win because at the moment, the NHS is much beloved by the public and much beloved by patients. And if you look at patient surveys, they don't criticise the food very much. They don't say it's wonderful, but the, about half the patients um, say it's it's acceptable or something, you know, sort of not not what one, it's not all terrible. And that's good because that means we've got hospitals that are doing good things that who can show the others how to do it or help them. Um, and but it's it would be such an easy win for them because the most, the most complained about thing in hospitals is the food. It's never the, it's never the nursing, it's never the the um, clinical staff, it's the food. So why don't we fix it? And then, you know, those complaints will go away.
Dr Rupy: I mean there's a couple of things that you you mentioned there that I I definitely um, I I I definitely also emphasized when I was asked for my opinion on the review and that was about protected staff times for food, but also providing food as well for staff. And that seems a bit radical, but actually what you've just described there, if you are doing 12-hour shifts, you don't have time, no matter how quick the recipe, no matter how much you plan, you're always going to be reliant on whatever is convenient. And generally what's in the convenient is not healthy at all. And if you look at the impact across healthcare professionals, it's no wonder we're more likely to be obese, we're more likely to suffer depression, we're more likely to have cardiovascular disease, we're more likely to die younger in all these different factors.
Prue Leith: Yeah, even drug addiction is high in in um, in the medical profession.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I mean for for a host of reasons, it's definitely an area that needs targeting, um, with food and other interventions, for sure.
Prue Leith: You and I should rule the world.
Dr Rupy: Talking of programmes, actually. So we can talk about this now. We've been under locking key for a little while. Um, we did a programme that I am I was super privileged to to work with you on. Um, I think it's wonderful. I don't actually know the name of it. I don't I it might have changed by the time this goes out and airs. Do you know what the name is?
Prue Leith: Well, I I know it's the last two words are spend less. I think it's like cook more, spend less, or something.
Dr Rupy: Cook more, spend less. Okay. Yeah.
Prue Leith: But I think that's a temporary name. I don't think it's going to stay that way. But the point is it's four programmes where we um, we saw four different families who were all struggling with producing healthy food for their um children and who um, some of them didn't like cooking, some of them just didn't have time, some of them um, one woman absolutely hated cooking. So we gave them a plan. A plan, and and saved them a lot of money if they stick to it. So we'll see if they stick to it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, we'll see. I still haven't come across the results just yet because we've only just finished recording it, but um, I had a blast doing it because I think another thing that we don't really um talk much about is food waste and actually how to action the process of reducing food waste, saving money, which I mean, who wouldn't want a few extra grand every year? That's enough for a holiday whenever we're allowed out. Um, so yeah, and it was great. It was a really good uh, um experience getting to meet the families. Um, I love Sanjeev's uh, recommendation that we could call the programme, Rupy and Prue make it true, something. That's stuck in my head.
Prue Leith: I like that. Yeah, that would be great.
Dr Rupy: But yeah, no, it was really good, really good experience. I loved it.
Prue Leith: No, it was a good experience. Um, it was we were helped in a way because the the families were um, they were up for for for change. I think if we had had four families who who were in dire straits, who were really um, living in tremendously deprived conditions and who had never eaten well, it would have been it would be a lot much longer job. I mean, I think that we have we have a fair chance of of the the four couples, I hope we have a fair chance. We won't know and we wouldn't tell you anyway because we want you to watch the programme. But I think we'll have, I think we'll have a fair chance, um, that that at least some of them will stick to our plan and will and will benefit from it and and will think this is ridiculous. Why didn't I just keep doing this? It's much better than the way I was before and save a lot of money.
Dr Rupy: Totally. Yeah. And hopefully it will inspire other people who watch the programme and be like, ah, I never I never really thought about using parsnips in that way. And we have some really experimental recipes that are super easy to do.
Prue Leith: I know, we did have some great recipes. And I have to say, I've made a few of them since because I thought I I learned a lot too. It was great. We had a home economist on the on the show called Luke. And Luke is, I said to Luke, you better write a cookbook because you really are full of good ideas.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's an amazing team. A a lot of people don't realize that actually when you do programmes and and stuff that there's like a huge team behind it, or not huge, but like a few people behind it who are super experimental and we work with them to create recipes and one was Luke, Bo, Rob, uh and Holly uh were on hand on the actual shoot days as well. And they they're just brilliant. Um, and it's their sort of creativity that we also get to showcase and then, you know, try and encourage people...
Prue Leith: People think it's us, Rupy.
Dr Rupy: That's the magic, the magic of television.
Prue Leith: Anyway, you're not meant to give away all your secrets.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, no. It was a lot of us, it was a lot of us as well. But you, you know, you're involved in so many different TV programmes, um, you're like an activist on so many different levels. Where where do you think that's sort of come from? Is it is it your experience, going back to where you grew up and stuff and your experience of apartheid and and how you realised how wrong that was as as you grew older? Is that is that where it comes from?
Prue Leith: No, I think it might, I think my sort of interfering side might come from my mum because she used to campaign against apartheid. She she belonged to a woman's group called the Black Sash. They wore black sashes like other people wear red roses or whatever or pink ribbons. And she um, I remember her coming home, she she had a black coat and she came home one day and she had a sort of horrible great yellow s- splashes all over it because people had been throwing eggs at these women who were just um silently protesting outside the city hall um about a party. And she spent a lot of her time, because she was an actress, she wanted to um, she wanted to be able to cast a play with black actors in it, which of course wasn't allowed. I mean you could you couldn't even have a black actor playing a fellow, isn't that ridiculous? And um, and you couldn't have audiences mixed and and she wanted to have mixed audiences because she was doing generally some quite highbrow plays, Ibsen and and Shakespeare and Oscar Wilde and Chekhov and so on. So they the the the the government idea was, well, you can have separate performances for black audiences. But there's not enough because the black audience, black people come generally from very poor backgrounds, are not going to be enough theatregoers to even quarter fill a theatre. So unless you can allow black people, you could allow black people into the same um performances as whites, it just denies black people any chance of seeing any theatre ever because it's uneconomic to put a show on just for black people of that kind. Obviously, it was a jazz concert would be different. But so she she campaigned very hard for this and she managed to persuade the at one point the um the actors, I mean the the the writers' union in England had decided to ban all of their works going to South Africa because of apartheid. So she didn't agree with this because she believes, and I must say I do too, that burning the books is not the way to persuade people. You don't what you want is more theatre and more plays, plays about injustice and and um so forth. So she she came and at the time, John Mortimer was the head of the writer's union here and she managed to persuade him to lift the ban. So that was good because that meant more more good plays could go to South Africa. And she did and she did get black um audiences into white theatres.
Dr Rupy: Wow. So do you think that's where you got your sort of uh, your your your instincts uh to to always, you know, speak out against things?
Prue Leith: I I never thought of it at the time because I've just done it all my life. Um, and and interestingly, my um, children both do. So I think maybe it runs in the families. But I think the idea that I'm pretty dogged, you know, if I think something needs doing, I tend not to give up. I'm still trying on food. But the but my proudest achievement has nothing to do with food at all. It's, you know, you know that um, there's a plinth on in Trafalgar Square that now has modern sculpture on it? Yeah. Well, I I'm very proud of that because it wouldn't have happened without me because one day, I mean, we're talking about um, 25 years ago, I was driving around Trafalgar Square in the days when you could drive around Trafalgar Square and there was this great big plinth, enormous, it's nine feet wide and 15 feet long or something, it's huge, 17 feet long. And it's right outside the National Gallery. And I just looked at it and thought, you know, I've driven past this thing so often and it's always been empty. There must have once been a a sculpture on there, probably an equestrian statue like the matching one across the square. So I wrote a letter to the evening standard saying, why don't they put back whatever it was that was on there? They must have fixed it by now, it's been empty for 20 years. And um, then lots of people wrote in saying, stupid woman, doesn't she know there's never been a statue on that plinth. No, because it was William IV, it was supposed to be for William IV when the square was laid out. And he was so unpopular, they used to call him silly Billy. And he was really unpopular and he was paying for it. And when he died, nobody wanted to put it up and nobody would nobody would fund it. So they never did. And so it was always empty. And then the reason it had always been empty was because nobody could agree what would go on it. So that was a challenge for me. I thought right, I got to fix this. So I got, I thought, I know what we'll do, we'll ask the public. So I started a little campaign with the evening standard and people wrote in with their their suggestions of what should go on. And mostly people thought of heroes. But of course, one man's hero is another man's villain, so we couldn't agree. And there were there were some great suggestions, Nelson Mandela was one because South Africa House is on Trafalgar Square. But they said no, no, no, you never have political, you never have political statues in Trafalgar Square, they have to go in Parliament Square or South Bank or somewhere. So everybody, even the even the armed forces, I went to the MOD and said, you know, can you guys agree on who would be a a good hero to put on there? And of course, the RAF wanted an RAF man and the the the navy wanted a navy, so that didn't work. And there were suggestions of a giant pigeon, which was quite a good idea because the thing was just full of pigeon poo all the time. Oh, and then there was people wanted, Gazza, the footballer or they they lots of lots of amazing things. So finally, I realised we were never going to get anywhere because we'd never get we would have the same problem as everybody else has had for 200 years, which is we can't agree. And then one of my little committee, because by then I was chairman of the um of the Royal Society of Arts. So I got a good little group together. And one of them was a a chap called James Lingwood who runs a thing called Art Angel, which does sort of happenings and art um art installations and projects and sound sculptures and all sorts of funny things. And he's quite weird but wonderful. And he said, why don't we suggest temporary exhibitions because then nobody will complain because they'll know it's coming down anyway. And by the time they've got their complaints through all the committees and bureaucracy, it'll be gone anyway. So so that that little simple thought was just magic and brilliant. So once we did that, it was fantastic. So then we asked for submissions from um well-known artists. And at first it was quite difficult, we had to persuade artists that to do it because there was a sort of feeling at the time that stuff on a plinth was rather old-fashioned and you know, plinths meant, I don't know, colonial white men on a horse. And so um, they it at the beginning I could we had to go around asking the best artists to to to do it. And most of them refused. But now I mean every top artist has been there, Anthony Gormley's been there, Anish Kapoor, Tracey Emin, all anybody you can think of has had their moment on top of...
Dr Rupy: That's incredible. I I honestly, I didn't realize that you were responsible for that because that has been, you know, such a talking point over across a number of years depending on what art installation. I remember it was the Tracey Emin one I think that caused quite a bit of a stir.
Prue Leith: And then the Rachel And then Anthony Gormley's was most peculiar, it was just an empty plinth, he just arranged for people to go and do their thing. So you could book your book your spot and get on there and for an hour for whatever it was.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Prue Leith: Sing or dance or do whatever. Um, but in order for him to do that, we had to build a sort of rather ugly net all around it in case you fell off because it's very high. On one side it's very high, on the on the um on the square side it's very high. So anyway, I I I have just loved that and it's different every year and so it's um it's very exciting. And and I I'm proud of that because I think that might continue because the public love it, the artists love it. Um, of course the artists now love it because it's what could be a better advertisement of their work, you know, the middle of Trafalgar Square. So since everybody loves it, I think it would be a very brave mayor who said I'm going to stop it. So that may go on. Anyway, it'll go on for my lifetime so I won't know if it doesn't happen.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. That's brilliant. I mean, I honestly, there's so many aspects of your life that I had no idea about, Prue. I mean, you really need to write all this down in like a compendium. I mean, the...
Prue Leith: Well, I did, I did write a I did write a an autobiography.
Dr Rupy: Oh, did you? When was that?
Prue Leith: Yes, it's called Relish. Maybe I'll I'll bore you with a a book. It's called Relish and it's full of stories about me. Um, but when I published it, it was before I went on Bake Off and before I married John. So I had to quickly they had to republish it with me putting Bake Off stuff in and my my second marriage because my first husband died in 2002. And when I wrote it, I was still a widow. But um, then I met John 10 years ago. So this and my daughter got married. So there were so there were so much that happened in my life recently that I had to catch it up. But um, it is, it took me two years to write it and I've written seven novels, but I I found the autobiography much more difficult than the novels because I mean novels you're making it up so you can change it if you don't like it. I mean, dealing with your own life, it's it's quite you know, it's but I decided, one of the things I decided about writing an autobiography and it's very interesting talking to other people who've done it, who've written memoirs, is um what do you record? You see, I called it a memoir because I reckoned I would just write about the things that I thought were interesting. I wouldn't write all of it. I mean, I hate those biographies which just go plodding through every boring part of your life. So I thought I'd just write about the interesting stuff. But then I did just make a decision that I would write everything that was would be interesting to the reader rather than um expurgate the embarrassing bits or the failures and so on. So the failures are in there, the embarrassing bits are in there, everything's in there. And um, that um that caused a little bit of um of tension in my family because although my children were given copies before to read and they they they agreed them. When when the memoir was published, of course, the press just picked out all the juicy bits or all the scandalous bits or all the they just took out all the thing and and blasted them all over the newspapers. So my son, particularly, who is a very private guy and was um embarrassed by this mother's behaviour, and he said to me, 'But Mum, you're a journalist. I mean, you know perfectly well how the press behaves. How could you have done it?' And I said, 'But Daniel, you have, you read it, you agreed it.' And he said, 'Well, I wasn't thinking, I shouldn't have been and so on.' So we had a we had a quite a sort of quarrel really. And then he went off, I was staying at his house at the time and he went off. And in the evening, he came back with a present in a beautifully wrapped present. And I thought, oh, poor boy, he's sorry about this morning and and um, you know, he's this is this is an olive branch. He's come to apologize. So I opened the I opened the box and in the box was a megaphone with a note saying, 'Just in case that anybody who doesn't know about your private life, perhaps this would help.' Which was quite witty.
Dr Rupy: That's so witty. That's brilliant. Well, I'm going to I'm going to read the autobiography now with all this in it. Definitely. I uh, I watched your programme with um with your daughter, which was beautifully made. Um, and it there there was one bit, I think it was at the start of the programme where you said, um, you're not the type of person to to cry or to, you know, show your emotions in in that way quite publicly. And um, I'm the opposite when I watch TV programmes. The hint of anyone being upset on the TV programme, I bought, I don't know why. I think it's because I hold it in when I'm at work, when I'm I'm sat in front of hundreds, if not more, people, you know, who are upset or, you know, helping them through and you've got to hold it together and, you know, obviously I'd never cry in front of that. But maybe it comes out when I'm watching TV programmes and I balled throughout the entire programme. It was such an emotional rollercoaster, Prue, honestly. It was, it was beautifully done as well. And obviously very, very emotional for you. Um, I wonder if we could talk about that.
Prue Leith: I mean, I've always thought Leader's story because my daughter, you will know if you watch the film, she um is adopted, she's Cambodian. And she came out of Cambodia just before the Khmer Rouge um took over Non Pen. And so, you know, she was she escaped on the last plane out and and she was only a baby then. And um, I got her when she was 16 months old. So her her backstory is so emotional anyway. And she's become very um close to Cambodia and goes there a lot. And um helps with a charity. And in fact, set up another charity. In that film, do you remember one of the things we had to do was DNA testing to see if we could find her her her birth mother. And um, we realised that one of the thousands of Cambodians still looking, this is 40 years later, 45 years after the the genocide of of so many of the people of Cambodia, 25% of the of the population were killed. And um, and there are still people looking for missing relatives from that time. Of course, they're getting older and and so on, but but DNA testing would really help find them. And so Leader's now set up a charity that will get cheap or free DNA testing for for those people. So she, you know, she I'm I'm proud of her because she's a bit of a campaigner too. And um...
Dr Rupy: She's her mother's daughter.
Prue Leith: She but I I I did find it much, I just thought I was going on a nice jolly. I thought it would be lovely to spend two weeks with my daughter and have her to myself without her son and her husband and, you know, once you've got family and children, you don't see your children one-to-one anymore. So I thought this is a brilliant opportunity to have a two week one-to-one with my daughter. And I didn't think I'd be affected as I was. And so there was a bit of me blubbing on, anyway, I'm sorry about that.
Dr Rupy: I thought it just showed such a lovely, genuine and authentic part of your personality that a lot of people don't get to see on TV anyway, you know, people...
Prue Leith: They just see me being being unkind about cake.
Dr Rupy: About cake, exactly. Yeah. There's so much richness to your life and, you know, the activism and all the different things that you've been involved in. It's um, I I think it was just beautifully done. And you said it's been nominated for an award or something like that?
Prue Leith: Yes, yes, there is um, I don't know too much about documentary awards, but it's um, it's up for some smart award, so I hope we win it because it'll it'll be a great um, fillip to Leader who has just set up her own um, company with with two other two friends for film film production company. She's in the film business, that's what she's been doing her whole life. But that's film will help, I think. It's good for her.
Dr Rupy: Wonderful. Yeah, no, great.
Prue Leith: But no, I mean, I'm so I'm sort of proud of my son too because, you know, he spent 10 years running, he started with his wife, he started a prison charity worrying about um, trying to get get recidivism down and to try and prevent people, children getting into crime and to look after people when they come out of prison so that they don't go straight back into prison. And he's been absolutely brilliant at that. He's an MP now, but for 10 years, he ran this charity, which still goes, still going. Um, but you know, it's the same old thing, it's the charities that do the best work.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Prue, I could talk to you for another two hours.
Prue Leith: We better stop.
Dr Rupy: But I should let you go and make best use of your time. Yeah, we've got a lot of things to do. Um, I can't wait for our programme to go out. Uh, it's been it was a pleasure working with you on that. And I really do hope we get to do some other stuff in in whatever field.
Prue Leith: Do you remember how we first met was culinary medicine? Because we both both wanting um doctors to know more more about um food and nutrition. I mean, the problem, I mean no, you are an exceptional exceptional doctor, but most doctors eat badly, smoke too much, drink too much. I'm maybe exaggerating a bit. But they they and they tend, because of the pressures on their time, to take the easy option when a patient comes in and give them some pills rather than give them a decent, you know, help to get onto a good diet.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, and I remember you were you were at the first culinary medicine inaugural day in the front row, no less, taking notes as well. Uh, I've still got the pictures actually. I should should repost that actually with this podcast, but um, yeah, no, it was uh, your support has been incredible.
Prue Leith: Well, I think what you're trying to do is really important. And fortunately, it's going well, isn't it? I mean, it's growing.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's growing. We're in different universities. We've got lots of uh, interest and we're building the online course as well, so it's more accessible to doctors across the UK.
Prue Leith: And I do think that the most important part of all that is the getting it into the into the medical courses so that all doctors who qualify will know a lot about nutrition and preferably know how to cook.
Dr Rupy: Exactly. Exactly. We're working on it and it's with your with your love and support. So thank you, Prue.
Prue Leith: Thanks, Rupy. That was fun.
Dr Rupy: Thank you so much for listening to this week's podcast. You can find more on the show notes and at thedoctorskitchen.com. Sign up for the newsletter for weekly recipes and tips on how to help you lead a healthier, happier life. I will see you here next week.
