Dr Rupy: Camy, so I am really interested in reducing alcohol. I don't think I will ever take alcohol completely out of my life. I don't think I'll ever be 100% sober. But I definitely don't want to be drinking to the extent that I perhaps was earlier in my life when I was at med school, that kind of stuff. I wasn't excessive, excessive, but still, it was a lot more than I'd wanted it to be. But there's this middle ground now, a term that I've heard you use, mindful drinking, and it's not quite sobriety and it's not like drinking, even at the weekends regularly. I wonder if you could walk us through what that terminology refers to.
Camy Vidal: Yeah, absolutely. And I think what's interesting with the term mindful drinking is it can be different for each and every person. My definition or my balance as a mindful drinker will be different than yours and my balance would evolve. When I started seven years ago, when I changed my drinking habits, I was probably way more on the side of moderation. I was still enjoying weekly alcoholic drink, I was still having regular glasses of wine and things like this, when over time I actually reduced, reduced, reduced to the point that then for a few years I wasn't even drinking alcohol at all. And then start reintegrating a few things, but so it's it's really different and I always say mindful drinking isn't about drinking alcohol or abstaining. It's about becoming aware of your drinking habits, because often we're not aware of it. We just drink by default and we don't really realise, we don't track how much we drink or we don't remember how much we've had throughout the week. And so it's about becoming aware of our drinking habits, changing our drinking habits for the better. So finding our balance that works for ourself, knowing our limits, knowing what, you know, what works, what doesn't work. And for some people that means sobriety. You know, for some people that means cutting out alcohol.
Dr Rupy: And so that's sobriety just to confirm that's 100% no alcohol whatsoever.
Camy Vidal: For some people that's the balance that works for them best, you know, and and for for others that means moderation. And again in moderation, my balance might be a glass of wine twice a year, you know, and yours might be a glass of wine once a week, you know. So I think that it's really broad, but for me it's more of a mindset and it's more of an awareness point where you begin to become aware of how much you drink, when you drink, how often, with who, in which occasion, and you start implementing changes. So it's it's about drinking better with with better ingredients, less alcohol and finding that balance that works for you.
Dr Rupy: I I really appreciate that because I can draw a parallel across things like junk food and sugary foods and all the rest of it. For some people, the right answer is not to have it whatsoever and they can become quite stark and specific about exactly having nothing in their diet. That's what works for them. Some other people are able to moderate. They can have a day when they eat whatever they want, you know, a couple of times a month and that's fine for them and the rest of the time they can eat well according to whatever works for them for their health and well-being. And and other people are sort of like, you know, they can do it a couple of times a week where they have junk food and they can still sort of like, you know, navigate what is quite a complicated food landscape. I'm somebody who can't have junk food in the house. And like Rochelle will always my wife will always like have some snacks in there and if I know there's snacks in the fridge or there's snacks in the cupboard, I'm going to go for that. So for me, moderation is actually quite being quite strict in the household. If there's like snacks outside, I can deal with that because that's outside of my control. But it's about figuring out what your how what keeps you on the straight and narrow, what keeps you you moderated. And I think alcohol is something that falls into a similar sort of way of of managing.
Camy Vidal: And it's so interesting because already like you you put that bridge between the two and for some people that wants to moderate, that might be not having alcohol at home and never having a drink by themself at home or even if they have friends is having an alcohol-free house, but when they go out and they go to a restaurant where they really want to try the wine list or they go to like, you know, I don't know, like a cocktail bar and they really want to try one of their alcoholic cocktail, then that's when they imbibe and they they try alcohol. So I think that it's for me the most empowering part of becoming a mindful drinker is that is actually taking the time to really notice, to understand when you drink, how often, how it starts impacting your life when you're out of balance and then putting in place those tactics, those strategies that really support you to stay on that journey of, you know, enjoying your evenings out, feeling good, having a clarity of mind and not having to to be impacted by alcohol. And I think that you made a really good point as well saying that we're not all equal when it comes to to alcohol. For some people, there is more tendency to to become addicted to it and I think that's also a reality that we have to be aware of is for some people sobriety is the answer. But for some other, and some people will say things like, yeah, but alcohol is like highly addicted. And absolutely, but so is sugar and so is casein in cheese, you know, and milk and so.
Dr Rupy: I think it depends on the individual and that's why I think the parallel, there is a nice parallel there. Obviously alcohol is very well recognised to be addictive and for certain people, no alcohol is the correct answer. But some other people can enjoy even a glass of wine at home on their own and moderate their drinking behaviour across, let's say the month for example. Other people drinking alone at home is a step towards failure, a step to that spiral where they end up drinking and the abusive behaviours, the the self detrimental behaviours. So in that respect, the mindful drinking movement I think provides space for people who don't want to go to the extreme of sobriety, which is completely irrelevant for certain people, but they do have that motivation to reduce alcohol for whatever reason it might be. It might be the excess calories, the energy intake, the sugariness, or that clarity of mind, the feeling that they don't need. I used to be that that person who, you know, if you go to the pub or you go out for dinner and someone's having wine, I'm like, let's have some wine. I used to be like, sure, I'll have some wine or yeah, sure, I'll get a pint or whatever. And what you just said there about being intuitive and being aware of just how much you're drinking, I definitely didn't fall into that category. I don't think I had a problem with alcohol. I don't think I've ever had.
Camy Vidal: But you weren't aware of it because it was default and you were just.
Dr Rupy: The default, exactly.
Camy Vidal: I think that's that's very, very often what I see is, you know, people at the end of the day opening their fridge having a glass of wine because they had a stressful day or going to the bar or going to the bar and drinking alcohol because they assume that that's what you do in bars. When actually when you when you get out of this like autopilot, then you realise that you have so much space to create and create and decide what works for yourself. And I think that, you know, it's also important to to really understand how the body works and how your body works. Like if we go back to to that addictive aspect to to alcohol and we look at what the recommendation are from the NHS and you know, we say that it's 14 units of alcohol per week to not go above that. And actually if you go above that and if you go around like depending obviously on like your age and your size and all of that, but for women around 18 unit a week and for men around 22 to 24 unit a week, which is actually when when we talk a bit more about unit, it's not that much. That's when actually you create addiction and you will experience slight symptoms of withdrawal from if you drink that much. And and that, I mean, 18, that's like less than like two bottles of wine, which is quite a bit a lot, but that's like that's three glasses of wine, large glasses of wine a week and three pint of beer, you're around that 18 unit. And so I think it's about becoming aware of what is alcohol, how does your body process it and kind of having this like tactic and and strategy that you can put in place. So when you go out, you would have, you know, you start your evening with something that is alcohol-free or you switch, you go from something alcoholic to something alcohol-free or you make sure that you drink enough water and you always have like, if you have one alcoholic cocktail, you drink one glass of water, like you kind of like sandwich that in the middle.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. We're going to talk about strategies I think in the middle because I I'm I'm really interested in that and that's something that I've done intuitively just by trying to moderate drinking behaviour and all the rest of it. I think addressing where people are listening to or watching this at, I think is very really important. So in the context of the UK, do we have any sort of numbers of who is looking to be 100% sober versus those who still want to drink but want to reduce their drinking behaviour and others who are perhaps just not really phased by the alcohol. They don't think it's something they care about and and that's that's fine, you know.
Camy Vidal: So and those numbers are fascinating to me. Like the the latest numbers that came out is 15% of the population, the adult population in the UK is teetotal.
Dr Rupy: 15?
Camy Vidal: 15. Wow.
Dr Rupy: That's actually quite a lot higher than I first. Yeah, yeah.
Camy Vidal: I thought it was yeah, I guess I'm too into this moment. And I guess I'm like surrounded by so many people that have chosen to live this like alcohol-free lives now, probably because I you know, I have this impact on people when they're like, oh, I'm changing my drinking.
Dr Rupy: That's like one in eight people.
Camy Vidal: Yeah, that's like 15%. And but and so that's, you know, one part. And I think what's I found really interesting because also the numbers have like grown so much um even in like the last year is 74% of the adult population in the UK are actively trying to moderate their drinking.
Dr Rupy: 74%?
Camy Vidal: 74. And last year it was around 50%. Wow. So even in just like one year, we've grown so much. And I think that like I think last year was more than half of the population in the UK were saying that they they were stating that they wanted to change their relationship with alcohol either by cutting out alcohol or reducing. So they wanted to become a mindful drinker. When now we're saying that 74% of the population is actually actively trying to moderate.
Dr Rupy: What do you think is driving this interest in reducing alcohol? Is it an awareness of the impact on our mental well-being, an awareness on our physical health, things like obesity or cardiovascular health? Like what are there any sort of like uh data that support the the sort of uh motivations behind it?
Camy Vidal: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that the list is like never ending. There's so many different reason why people and I think at the moment we kind of put everyone in the same basket. But if if you're moderating because you're training for a marathon versus you're moderating because you're really, you know, trying to like build your business and trying to like put a lot of energy into your career versus you're moderating because you have a young family or etc, etc. Like your your what you will drink will be different, the way that you consume will be different. But we kind of kind of like can put it in three different buckets. There's the physical wellness that we will put all of this of like and that can be people that want to improve their physical well-being, that can be people that are um really into sports or that, you know, all of this will go into the the physical wellness. Then there's the mental wellness, which I think that's also something that like we're talking more and more and I think that's like that's amazing that like mental health is more at the centre of the conversation, but also that we're really realising that alcohol has a huge impact on mental health. We see that like the numbers are really high on uh how much you are more inclined to experience challenges with your mental health if you consume too much alcohol or above the guideline of the recommendation of of the NHS. And so I think that it's and you know, I have this um on my website, I have this mental health check-in where it's um something like if you're going out, you're feeling good, you're going out, you want to celebrate. Cool, have have something alcoholic if you feel like it, but remember like drink remembering that there is a tomorrow. And then if like and it kind of like goes down the the list and it's like you're feeling really like overwhelmed and you're tired and you're blah blah blah. Well, probably like there's other things that you can do because a lot of people will say, oh yeah, but I drink to relax. But actually that's that that's not the thing. It doesn't make you relax or for a very fleeting moment, but actually after that, it more spirals you down than anything. And so for me, I always say to people that I guide through this journey of becoming a mindful drinker, if you're drinking alcohol, make sure that you're drinking alcohol when you're in the right space, in the right like mindset. If you're feeling overwhelmed, you're tired, like all of this, actually alcohol is going to make it worse because we know that alcohol impact negatively uh sleep pattern, um that we fall asleep straight into a deep sleep, but we actually don't get our rapid eye movement and all of that. So for me, alcohol should be a celebration that is done mindfully when you feel at your best rather than something that you use as a coping mechanism or a crutch or anything.
Dr Rupy: This is sort of like my personal experience during COVID actually. Like when I suddenly went to working in A&E full time, they were doing extra shifts and then being sort of uh pulled in lots of different directions because I still wanted to maintain the podcast and all that kind of stuff. Um I found myself with nowhere to go in the evenings and just spending time with my wife, having a lot more of the wine, the sort of like the deserved like shot of whiskey, the sort of uh the luxury items that I thought, well, we can't go out to a nice bar, we can't go out to a nice uh restaurant. So I'm going to enjoy like a really good quality um liquor and that kind of stuff. And just as you were saying, you know, people drink to relax, that was my reasoning uh in there. And I also found that there wasn't really anywhere else to go in terms of the choice of drinks that I could actually, you know, enjoy at that time period. And I'm I'm the kind of person that loves the sophisticated flavours, particularly when it's paired with like good food and all that kind of stuff. And that's always been my excuse for not going down the sort of sobriety route, like 100% because I would miss it. I'd miss that the the beautiful flavours of a certain wine or the rosé or like what we're drinking right now is like perfect. The incredible rosé. What is it called? The rosé pamplemousse?
Camy Vidal: The rosé pamplemousse. This is like a delicious, refreshing sparkling wine, grapefruit liqueur, all alcohol-free. And to be fair, if I pour that for you at the end of a long day that you had without telling you that it was alcohol-free, you would have loved it. You would have enjoyed it.
Dr Rupy: I would have loved it, exactly. I would have completely loved it. And and and so that I think a lot of people listening to this, they they're like healthy foodies, right? They love their flavour, they're not just going to eat a kale salad with beans, they're going to want to enjoy spices and different cuisines and all that kind of stuff. This yeah.
Camy Vidal: That's what I call the healthy hedonist.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, the healthy hedonist, exactly. So, you know, for for folks listening to this who are new to this this world, like what are actually the options now that people can enjoy without because my experience prior to this was like a mocktail, right? Which is I know is a a word that you hate.
Camy Vidal: I mean, hate might be a big word, but I have high opinions on it.
Dr Rupy: Which is high sugar and not really, you know, contributing to good health as we know. Um so like what what is there now in this mindful drinking movement? Like what what are you seeing that's that's out there?
Camy Vidal: I mean, I feel like that even in that story that you just shared, there's so much to unpack, you know. Going back to what you were saying of like having long days and feeling, you know, overstretched and and um and overwhelmed at the time, which was really understandable, that you were turning into something that to make you feel good, to you know, to have to treat yourself. And I think that and and probably maybe even without realising to also cope with the intensity of what you were going through, you know. So I think that like often alcohol is used in that way, in that way of like escaping. Sure. Um and if it's done with again with awareness, that's totally fine. If with with understanding and with, you know, finding the balance and doing it um in control and in moderation, then that's fine. But I think that the the challenge that I often see is, you know, we live in a society where we often feel really on the edge and triggered and we're working so much and we we're not giving ourselves enough space and enough time to be able to replenish our body, our mind. And so then we use alcohol in the way that is actually, yes, making us feel good in the moment, but actually in the long run, I don't think the the impact is uh um always positive. I also think that like as a society, we think that like alcohol is the way to make the moment special. But I actually disagree with that. I think we need to rewrite the narrative on that. What makes the moment special isn't the the alcohol content, isn't the ethanol in the glass. What makes the moment special is that beautiful glass, that amazing flavour, these moments that we're sharing. That's what you remember. And if you go back to COVID, we had alcohol at home. What we were missing was the connection, was the experience, was the going to our favourite places. It wasn't the alcohol itself that we were missing. So I think we need to rewrite the narrative and and as you were saying, like.
Dr Rupy: That reframing, I'm I'm 100% going to use that. I think that's just such a good nugget to instead of think because I think of like as you just mentioned that like loads of moments in my life were flashing back to me, you know, when I qualified as a doctor, when I was living in Australia, working in ITU, and I remember these moments like, you know, popping champagne or like, you know, having a a toast or that kind of stuff. And it's it it's not necessarily the alcohol. It's just something like as a as a culture, as a society, sort of like the culture that we've we've sort of built around that. But there there are ways in which we can change that. Like what you just, you know, created for me in front of me with the garnish and the the ice and the the sort of complexity of flavours and like it this feels like a moment for me, you know?
Camy Vidal: Exactly. You know, I always say, keep the rituals, update the recipe.
Dr Rupy: Keep the rituals, update the recipe. I love that.
Camy Vidal: That's all you need to do. You know, like the rituals are.
Dr Rupy: I'm going to write these down.
Camy Vidal: We should make t-shirts. Um I think for me the rituals are the the magic of, you know, being alive. Like I think food and drinks have an amazing and a magical way of bringing people together. But I I generally don't think that the alcohol has to be part of the equation or definitely not every single time.
Dr Rupy: Sure.
Camy Vidal: And to go back to your question about the category, I think that also is the reason why we see more and more people wanting to, you know, actively change their their relationship with alcohol because I mean, I'm very fortunate. I've been in the in the drink industry for 15 years plus now and I and I was very much at the at the forefront of the the mindful drinking movement and the no and low. I launched my company La Maison Wellness at the end of 2017. So like I've seen the birth of most non-alcoholic spirits. You know, there was one that was launched, Seedlip, by a friend of mine actually. Um but that was pretty much it. And of course there was some other brands, but but the movement wasn't fully fully there. So I got to really become an advocate for for the category, for the movement. Um you know, my goal has been really to show the world that tasty doesn't have to be boozy, to create amazing recipes that taste as delicious and create this experience. And I got to as part of of um of what I do, I do a lot of um judging spirits awards, which is, you know.
Dr Rupy: Because prior prior to the no and low movement, you were fully fledged in the in the Yeah, yeah. the the alcohol world, right?
Camy Vidal: Yeah, so I worked as a bartender for many years in many different places from France to Australia. I got to bartend in the the world best bar all around the world. I worked for a brand called Saint-Germain, which is a French elderflower liqueur, who then got acquired by Bacardi. So I worked with Bacardi for almost a decade. So I was very much in that world of like, you know, the best cocktails and the best cocktail bars and and um and it was great, but I I really felt like that because I had this like knowledge and this this skills of making drinks, I wanted to transfer that into this category of no and low. And so a part of of what I do is also judging all those spirits awards, which basically it's us when we started, the first first one, um I think it was maybe 2020, I I got this like tray of alcohol-free wine. So everything is blind tasted, so you don't see the bottle, it comes in the glass, there's a number, you you enter all your tasting notes and then you score it, right? So I had this this tray of like alcohol-free wine and I had maybe like 20 glasses on it and by the end of that flight, I generally felt sick. I was like, I felt nauseous, you know, because the quality of the wine was just not there, the technique wasn't there. Now, I mean, we we score so many silvers and so many golds and actually recently there was a a wine from Austria that entered the classic wine spirits competition and got 98 points scored without saying that it was alcohol-free.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Camy Vidal: Which is incredible. So we're really seeing.
Dr Rupy: So without so it did they didn't declare.
Camy Vidal: They just entered it.
Dr Rupy: They just entered it. They didn't declare.
Camy Vidal: And it was seen in because you have you have to put um the ABV. Okay, fine, fine. But like it was scored like a normal wine.
Dr Rupy: But that's pretty phenomenal that a no that a non-alcoholic uh beverage was able to pass that high against all the other like regular alcohol.
Camy Vidal: So I think that like I mean the category is now really, really exciting and and I will say it's probably the most exciting category in the drinks industry because everything is to to be done, you know, there's like so many amazing products that needs to be created, the we have to like improve the technology and how they're made. Um so it's really, really fascinating to look into it. But if I was kind of like breaking it down, you have sort of like what we call like the the mimic. So that would be like your spirits that are that are created to mimic the alcoholic version of it. So that could be like an alcohol-free gin or an alcohol-free rum or an alcohol-free whiskey or an alcohol-free tequila. So they will take all this like flavour that you experience and create something that like remind of that experience and those flavour. And then you have this what we call like the new world, which is completely different and they are products that are trying to to do something that is not to be pinpoint to like an alternative to. So that can be like Botivo, which I think I I introduced you to.
Dr Rupy: I love Botivo. Honestly, you you gave it to me and uh I like whenever I see Botivo on a menu, I just order it straight away. It's great.
Camy Vidal: Order, order. Absolutely. And so that's, you know, again, it's made with um a vinegar base, so amazing way to extract flavour, all natural. There's like the process is very long to do it, the maceration takes time. They really care about what they what they're doing and what they make.
Dr Rupy: And that was made by a sommelier, wasn't it? Like a.
Camy Vidal: It was made by by a bartender, someone in the industry who was like doing lots of events and realised that there was a need for alcohol-free. So so we see more of those really crafted products coming into into the market and some are really like beautiful and and I you know, I kept on saying I can't wait for it to not be just about being alcohol-free. Like there are I mean, Botivo, the the talking point about it is not that it's alcohol-free, it's just that it's delicious. You can add a little bit in your alcoholic cocktail and in your margarita and your gin and tonic, whatever you're making, you know, that will just add this beautiful flavour to it. So that's kind of like the new world. And into this, you could also put like the more the functional ingredients. So like the the three spirits world, which are made with like amazing adaptogens and and uh and really trying to create um an experience and a feeling for for people. So you have like their social elixir, which is like, you know, with ashwagandha and supposed to help you kind of like take the edge off and you have livener that have like guava leaf and supposed to be and like natural caffeine, which is like energising and should keep you on the dance floor all night long. And you have the night cap which has like valerian root that helps you with sleep and all of that. And I find this category really exciting and really um.
Dr Rupy: See, that's where I see um a really interesting place for things like adaptogens, right? Because I think at currently the use of adaptogens is pretty crude. It's like, okay, you take your supplement every single day or you take this mushroom-based drink every single day and then you get these calming relief and benefits. And look, for some people, that's great and it works well. But I think for a lot of people, it's just sort of unnecessary and there's other ways in which you can um uh improve whatever symptom that you're you're trying to treat using lifestyle and food techniques. But in a in a spirit or a non-alcoholic beverage or mindful cocktail, it complete I completely see why it works in that respect, you know? Like a livener or a night cap or something like that. So you're using a drink not just for the celebratory moments, but actually in a in a in a functional way.
Camy Vidal: And there's something, there's a brand called Wild Life Botanicals. I actually haven't seen them for for a little while. I hope they're still around. But they're non-alcoholic sparkling wine was added um adaptogens, so like different botanicals, adaptogens, vitamins, and they're not they're like known as like the bubbles with benefits. And I really love that. I just think that like that's very smart and it's just such a great way. And for me, when when again, when I, you know, when I started my journey with La Maison Wellness, that's why I call my cocktails mindful cocktails and that's why I coined that term because for me it's about using better ingredients and less sugar and less alcohol or no alcohol and really like embracing all this like amazing ingredients that you can use to even when making um alcoholic cocktail is how can you make sure that, I don't know, you're using coconut water that helps with like rehydrating the body or making sure that you do long serve. So like again, you really hydrate the body or you're using like different tincture and different things that kind of counterbalance.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, because you were talking to me earlier about the diuretic effect of alcohol. Now, I've always recognised the fact that alcohol is a diuretic for obvious reasons. Um but I didn't realise just how much you have to rehydrate after drinking. And you were telling me something about beer and about like, you know, if you have.
Camy Vidal: It's any alcohol actually, but like I mean we've all, maybe not all, but many of us have woken up one day very hungover and literally feeling like a prune or a raisin, you know, like you feel like that all the water has been like sucked out of your body. And it's because whatever amount of alcohol you drink, your body will lose in term of water four time that amount of that amount of liquid that you drink. So let's say that you had three glasses of wine or three pints, then you will lose four time that amount of liquid because the alcohol is a diuretic. So you're like, it's so dehydrating. And that's why I always say, first of all, when you go out, regardless if you're like, you know, not drinking alcohol or drinking alcohol, when you go out, I always say my three, my three tips are, first, exhale. Take a breath. You know, people rush to the bar and you get there and if you're like me, you're late, you know, because I tend to to run late all the time and then all your friends are sitting, they all have a drink and you sit down and you're like, oh gosh, oh gosh, now I'm late and now I have to read this menu that is very long and figure out what I want to drink. Um and that's when you kind of like go back into like default or you're like, I would have whatever they're having, but that's actually not what you want. And so I always say, take a breath, exhale. Then start with hydrating. Drink a glass of water or even start with a glass of sparkling water, you know, and have like hydrate because regardless, too often we find ourselves finishing our first glass, our first drink too quickly because we're dehydrated. And so starting with water means that you have a moment to pose, you have a moment to look at the menu, you don't feel stressed, you don't have this like, you know, bar panic, I call it, when you feel like you need to order straight away. And then you can take the time.
Dr Rupy: I like that. So like because I think I've definitely experienced that for sure. Like this panic or like this bar panic as you coined it, where you're trying to catch up. And I think we have a culture, particularly in this country, where there is that sort of peer pressure. And I've always felt that and I don't think I've had the sort of the uh the conscious uh knowledge of it or the the effort to just be like, you know, calm down a bit and just exhale. Uh certainly when I was younger as well. So that's that's a great strategy.
Camy Vidal: Yeah. Just exhaling and and and drinking.
Dr Rupy: Exhale, hydrate, start alcohol-free.
Camy Vidal: I always say start alcohol-free because again, that gives you the option of like, you have a drink, you feel good, you can start your conversation, you can see how you feel, you can see how long you want to stay, what's the what's the evening like, and then you can decide, do I want to stay alcohol-free for the evening or do I want to do this actually a new term that came out called the zebra striping.
Dr Rupy: Zebra, what's it?
Camy Vidal: Striping, like the the stripes.
Dr Rupy: Oh, like what you're wearing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Camy Vidal: I'm a representation of that. That's incredible. Like tactic and so you will start with something alcohol-free and then you move on to something alcoholic and then you move back to something alcohol-free. And you alternate and you realise that actually at the end of the evening, you feel so much better. I kept on saying, great nights are meant to be remembered. Like that idea of, you know, like having so much fun because we have to drink alcohol to have fun, but then to to go home or to wake up the day after and to remember half of the night, like or like, I can't remember who it was, but I remember watching this interview of someone say, drinking too much alcohol in the evening means that you're bothering you you're taking time from the day after. And I think that's like an amazing way to look at it is like, I don't want to take time, you know, from the day after. Like I think this idea of like having to like suffer the day after in order to have a great night is again, it's like false narrative and we need to to reframe that because for me, the best evening that I have and we we had some together is when we go out and we have delicious food and delicious drink and you go home and you feel like you had meaningful like connection and conversation and you remember the night and you wake up the day after with a clear mind and you just feel energised by it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Okay. So that those are great strategies. I'm definitely going to be what did you call it? Zebra striping? Is that what it is?
Camy Vidal: Zebra striping.
Dr Rupy: Zebra striping. And and I guess now blending into the the first bit of our conversation regarding the choice of non-alcohol uh options in restaurants is definitely getting better. It's not the best, certainly out of London, I would say. Like I was actually out of London um uh a couple of nights ago and I couldn't find any. So if you do find yourself in that situation where the options are alcohol, uh of which there are plenty of different uh uh choices for you, water, sparkling water, how would you sort of like create a like a a mindful drink for yourself like by ordering off menu?
Camy Vidal: Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a very good question. I mean, first of all, I say always ask for something alcohol-free because the more we ask in venues, the more they're going to have to really understand. Like if you look at numbers, in the UK, there's 800 million pound that is left on the table from bars and restaurants not having a solid like non-alcoholic offer. So people are drinking water.
Dr Rupy: That's a great start.
Camy Vidal: So like 800 million. I do think that like the UK hospitality industry need that money. So like the more you ask, the more they're going to have to really start um putting in place. And I and I know that because I work as a consultant with different bars and restaurants and creating um offer and and menus and things like that. Then I always say there's another very, very interesting um stats and and way to look at it is in a group of friends, the mindful drinker is very often the decision maker because if we were going to to dinner, I actually will probably recommend the place and I will have a look at the menu before going. The same way that if I was vegan, you wouldn't take and we were going for dinner, you wouldn't take me to a steakhouse, right? So it's exactly the same. So like the mindful drinker is the person who's going to look at the menu. So I will say, have a look when you're planning on like going for a drink or going to um to a restaurant, have a look at places, like have a look online at like their their menu, reach out to them. And often if they don't have something, I'm the person that will take a bottle of sparkling wine, like I'll take a bottle of Noty and I'm like, you don't have anything on the menu, so can I open this?
Dr Rupy: That's a really good. I didn't even think about that. I didn't even think about that as an option.
Camy Vidal: Because now like I you've got you introduced me to a whole bunch of different alcohol options. We've got loads at home, so I could potentially bring some with me.
Dr Rupy: Exactly, just take a bottle and we charge you them for and like and often I will end up having a conversation with them, like, you know, they taste it, they're like, this is delicious and then they put it on the menu and everyone is like, you know, winning.
Camy Vidal: They might give you free corkage as well for the tip.
Dr Rupy: So I think that like, you know, being like I always say, as a mindful drinker, you have to be prepared. Like you have to like do a little bit of like that because there's nothing more boring than being stuck um in a place with like, you know, just drinking sparkling water or sugary soda. And I think that's really changing even pubs, you know, have now um alcohol-free beer. I think alcohol-free beer is an amazing um they taste incredible. Um like I think that the the quality is remarkable and like I will really be surprised like if someone could could in a blind testing could say that it's alcohol-free. Um and then there's.
Camy Vidal: And that you're this coming from, you know, someone of your authority in terms of like tasting and judging competitions.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, and I guess like I actually have this IG series called what's good and not. So I taste everything so you don't have to. You can go straight to what's gold, you know, what's delicious. So I taste a lot of of product and and beers, I mean, there's some incredible, incredible beers, non-alcoholic beers. So so that's always an option. And to be fair, most pubs now would have something. Um so I think it's all always about asking. Unfortunately, and something that I'm really trying to like work on is also bars and restaurants and often cocktail bars don't put it like don't put it on the menu. So you think that there's no option, but actually have an option. So that's why I always say ask because you will make a difference and the more we ask, the more they would have to create a solid alcohol-free option. Um and then make sure that like sometimes you ask and they're like, oh no, actually we can make you something.
Dr Rupy: Got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And making sure that it's not too sugary and all the rest of it. Um you also have this thing called bookending that I I kind of I imagine it's similar to exhaling and having a non-alcoholic drink and stripe.
Camy Vidal: So those are actually not um bookending and and zebra striping are actually term that are that I didn't create, that are part of like what we see arising from um from the consumer insights because it's also very interesting how we've really changing and and that's the mission and the my goal was to really um show people that like we could celebrate and drink in a different way, to bring mindfulness into the glass, like I like to say. But we also see that younger generation are drinking less, you know, Gen Z actually drink way less.
Dr Rupy: I've heard this.
Camy Vidal: Like 20% of Gen Z don't drink alcohol at all. And 30% of Gen Z actually say that they enjoy the feeling of a workout more than the feeling of being tipsy. Which is so interesting to see how it's shifting and changing.
Dr Rupy: To be fair, I probably fit in that. Not to say that I'm Gen Z or anything, but.
Camy Vidal: I think that's where we're both, but but I'm the same. I actually enjoy the feeling of a workout more.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Camy Vidal: I think you spot on on there. I think that, you know, every time I share what I do, I introduce people to alcohol-free cocktails or mindful cocktails as I call them. The reaction is always so positive. There's almost this like light bulb moment when they're like, oh, wow. And they really enjoy and they start becoming aware and and it has such a positive impact on on people's life. And I think that for me that's just so exciting and and I think too often when we think of moderation, non-alcoholic, like the language is so negative around it that we feel like that it's about cutting out and we we're going to miss out, you know, we are compromising our life and the experience that we would get and and again, I think that's that's false narrative and that and there's an amazing way of celebrating life and and finding the balance that works for us is much way better.
Dr Rupy: Perfect. Perfect. All right. Okay, let's make drinks.
Camy Vidal: Let's start making some drinks.
Dr Rupy: I know, we are. I'm excited. You can make some cocktails.
Camy Vidal: I know, I'll make some. I'll make some for sure.
Dr Rupy: But I think you you spot on on there. I think that everyone has a different journey, everyone is dealing with their own um, you know, triggers and coping mechanism. And so I never say to someone, this is how much you should drink. This is not my place to do any recommendation. I guide people on finding the balance that works for themselves. I also think it's a journey. Like I haven't been drinking alcohol for a very long time now, you know, I went from not wanted to drink alcohol to being pregnant, to breastfeeding my twin boys, to being really, really busy with my, you know, young twin boys and my business. So like at the moment I don't drink alcohol because I don't want to or I don't feel the need or I don't have the time or anything. So I think, but when I started, I was very much on much more on the moderation side of it. And I think that as you it's an entry point and that doesn't mean that sobriety is the goal. But I think that I wouldn't say to someone, well, what you're doing is pointless because you're still drinking alcohol. Like I think that any reduction is positive and I think that we should celebrate that and we should empower that. So that's for me really, really important. And I think that it's the same between, you know, like veganism and like being flexi. Like I think that like the reducing has a positive impact on our well-being, on on the planet, on all of this and it's the same with alcohol. I think that we shouldn't minimize reduction at all.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's a really good comparison, I would say. Veganism it it kind of smacks of that sort of vegan argument of like, you're either 100% vegan or you might as well just eat all the meat in the world. I think there's a there's a really good middle ground that we should entertain, especially for people who, you know, still like myself, who still enjoy the flavour of alcohol and, you know, certain occasions where I drink alcohol, uh but, you know, equally I could have this in place of it and I feel a lot more clear-headed and, you know, I can focus on my responsibilities.
Camy Vidal: And I think some people are put off by the idea of sobriety. Like I I never and also I don't identify with the word sober because I don't feel like that's my journey. And so for me, like I never intend to not drink alcohol. Like I never started this journey being like, I'm never going to drink alcohol for the next decade at least of my life. I probably would have said no. You know, and I think that it's an entry point, it's a journey, it will it changes, it varies and and I think for me that's really empowering. We should find our own unique balance, but for that we have to do the work. We have to show up and really be honest with ourselves, see our triggers, see when we use it to escape, to use that as a coping mechanism. If you're not if you're not um honest on that journey, then obviously you won't find your balance for sure.
Dr Rupy: And in terms of the vernacular around alcohol-free, so less than 0.5% is uh what what because there's a whole bunch of terminology out there if you're new to this world and the comparisons between foods I found quite interesting. So maybe you can just sort of like whistle stop tour us around that.
Camy Vidal: Yeah. I mean, this is a challenging one, especially in the UK and also knowing that like they they are looking into the legislation at the moment and so things might change. So anywhere in the world, 0.5 is considered non-alcoholic. So, um I wouldn't say that like.
Dr Rupy: 0.5% ABV.
Camy Vidal: 0.5% ABV and ABV stands for alcohol by volume. So that means that there's 0.5 into what you drink. Knowing that, for example, if we take a spirit, a non-alcoholic spirit that says 0.5 on the bottle, depending on how much you use, that will also change and affect versus a 0.5 on the beer. So as you can we haven't even scratched the surface and it's already complicated. So in the UK, at the moment, they consider that non-alcoholic anything that that is up to 0.05 just to complicate everything. But I will say this is changing. There's also um a different like depending on where the product is made. So if it's made outside of the UK, it can be up to 0.5. So scratch all of that, forget all of this. And if people say to me, yeah, but what about if it's a medical condition of someone who's not drinking alcohol because they can't actually imbibe alcohol at all. And my answer is, if that's the case, that person is well very well aware of what they can and what they can't. Like this is like really rare and something that like they will know if they can't have this. Like I feel like any very, very specific reason of not drinking alcohol at all, you know what food and drinks you should avoid, right? So I will say anything that is 0.5 is safe to consume, is considered non-alcoholic in most countries and in this country if it's not made in this country anyway. Um but knowing that like your body can process only one unit of alcohol per hour and one unit of alcohol would be um one measure of spirits. Um would be.
Dr Rupy: Like 25 mils.
Camy Vidal: 25 mils or um a very like small glass of wine would be like 1.5, 1.6. Also, um I think people don't realise how big their serves are at home, you know, like they're like, oh, I only had a glass of wine. I'm like, that's an extra large glass of wine. No judgement, but that's an extra large. So like knowing like for example, a pint is three units. So for your body to be able to metabolise the alcohol, you would need to drink that pint in three hours, you know. So like slowing down, drinking water as much as you can is really, really important. But when it comes to 0.5, your body can process it and metabolise it very, very quickly. So that's safe, that's fine. Um and so some people that say, oh, but there's a little bit of alcohol. I'm always like, but that's traces of alcohol. And if you look at um a ripe banana could have like 0.3, sometimes even up to 0.5 if you like, you know, that banana that is ready for the the banana bread. That's for 0.5. A glass of like fresh oranges that you just squeeze would have again up to like 0.5. Um.
Dr Rupy: Up to 0.5?
Camy Vidal: Yeah, the like the.
Dr Rupy: In a glass of orange juice that you give to your kids, you know, you're like, have this. And that's totally fine because like, you know, this sourdough that we were all making during lockdown, like again, that has like traces of alcohol and definitely would have something around 0.5. A can of Coke is 0.5.
Dr Rupy: That's crazy to know.
Camy Vidal: You know, like I think that.
Dr Rupy: The fact that it's.
Camy Vidal: We don't have and I think that like we need to normalise that like there is there is alcohol. I mean, our digestive system produce like on average like three gram of like alcohol of ethanol every day, you know. So like I don't think that's something that we need to be scared of. And I will say 0.5 is alcohol-free, you can drink it, you this is safe. If you have a condition, then it's something that is different.
Dr Rupy: Sure. Yeah.
Camy Vidal: And then again, if it's for religious belief, then, you know, again, there's different alignment and on what you're comfortable. And again, it's your unique decision and choice that you make. But 0.5, your body metabolise it, this is totally safe. And if you don't want that, then you shouldn't have your brioche bun in your burger because again, there's traces of alcohol, you shouldn't have sourdough or oranges and never eat a banana ever.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. That is completely new to me. Look, there's so much more I think within this mindful drinking movement that we could talk about, but I'm really conscious to start trying some of these drinks that we've got in front of us because there is a whole world of flavour and enjoyment to be had with this area that you, you know, I'm really privileged that you have brought this into my life and I want to try and like pass it on by by telling more and more people about it. You know, we had non-alcoholic uh wine and and champagne at our wedding and you know, you created all that for us. So like I want to take other people on the journey because the benefits of clarity, the benefits of better gut health, the benefits of better sleep, better concentration, you know, they can be had with a small tweak to uh our our lives without the sacrifice that most people think of when they think of sobriety. So I really appreciate your thoughts and um yeah, we're going to we're going to start cocktail making.
Camy Vidal: I know, we are. I'm excited.
Dr Rupy: I know, I'll make some. I'll make some for sure.
