#70 Nurturing The Most Critical Source of Nutrition, The Soil with Abby Rose

Abby Rose: I think as science is progressing, we're realising our understanding is actually very limited on what is nutritionally relevant. There's a study that shows that, you know, for oranges, the vitamin C content that, for example, would have our grandparents could have got from one orange, we would now need to eat eight oranges.

Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast, the show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. My name is Dr Rupy. I'm a medical doctor. I also study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me on this podcast where we explore multiple determinants of what allows you to live your best life. And remember, you can sign up to the doctorskitchen.com for the newsletter where we give weekly recipes plus tips and hacks on how to improve your lifestyle today. Abby Rose is a physicist and further studied nuclear and particle physics for her masters and has now become a leading voice in a new dawn in farming. A farmer and soil health advocate, Abby was named one of 50 new radicals by the Guardian and Nesta in 2018 for her work developing simple apps that help build ecology, profitability and beauty on farms around the world. Five years ago, she founded the award-winning British podcast Farmerama Radio, one of my favourites, as a way of sharing farmers’ stories and their experiences in creating a more ecological farming future. The monthly show has quickly become a leading voice in the global regenerative farming movement, something we talk about a lot in today's podcast, and highlights the positive role farmers play in determining the future of the earth and its people. Abby splits her time between working on her family farm, VidaCycle, a bottle of wine arrived to the kitchen studio before today's podcast. I didn't drink it during the podcast, but I'll be enjoying it later. And it's based in Chile where she visits multiple farms and multiple farms across continents where she learns about the soil and understands what it's going to take to build a more ecological farming future. On today's podcast, we talk about what regenerative farming is and how that compares to sustainable and organic, why soil health on farms is so important and how that links to the health of plants and thus the health of humans. How we can eat more regeneratively and what that actually means. Nutrient bioavailability in food and how we measure it. How we are going to feed the world and who actually produces the world's food. This is a conversation about real food versus commodities that are products of farms. Seed and grain heritage and sovereignty, a subject matter that I am educating myself on as we speak. Politics, Brexit, GMO, EU structures that have traditionally disabled progress and what the pros and cons are of that, as well as how you can get more involved in this farming movement and how you can eat and essentially shape the food landscape, which is something I think consumers have a lot of power in to move towards a more sustainable structure. This is a topic that I'm certainly learning a lot more on myself and I think Abby is a leading voice and someone who has really been pivotal in my education and will continue to be so quite frankly as well. I highly recommend you check out Farmerama Radio, but this is a long podcast where we go through a lot of different topics. So please feel free to check out the show notes. There's loads of links to some of the things that we discussed. I highly, highly recommend you check out her podcast as well. And I hope you enjoy the show. It's been a long time coming and I'm sure there are going to be a lot more podcast episodes on this subject if you want to. So if you enjoy this, please give us a five-star review and put a comment in the show notes as well, wherever you get your podcast from, and we will make more shows on it.

Dr Rupy: Abby, I'm so grateful for you to coming on the podcast and I'm super excited about this. I know we've just been chatting very briefly about the broad topics that I want to talk about and there's quite a few. So there's probably going to be a part two, but thank you so much. I'm super interested in these subjects. I'm very immature in my learning about this and I think for me, starting off with this whole concept of food and the medicinal qualities and the nutritional medicine values of what we put on our plate has kind of led me on this journey towards how food is grown, farming and farming culture and then ultimately soil health and how the impact that we have on soil has an impact on human health. It would be wonderful for you to introduce yourself and to how you got into this from an academic point of view and what you do now.

Abby Rose: Yeah, totally. I'm really excited to talk to you as well because I think the context of food as medicine is really at the core of this conversation ultimately. And although my life's focused on farming, food as medicine, both for humans and the planet, and how we can build on that is really what it's all about. So yeah, thank you for being in conversation. And I can give you a bit of the background about me. I studied physics at university, so masters in particle physics, which is kind of like the most abstract type of, you know, thinking in some ways that that you can do. And it was after that that I went and spent some time on my my parents moved to to start farming in Chile whilst I was at university. Um and I thought at the time I thought that was kind of a weird thing to do. Um but I went and spent some time on the farm after doing my masters and I really, uh, for the first, I don't know, I really connected with land, um, and soil at that point and started to, uh, really get excited about the, um, I guess the real world, you might say, and very physical things. Um, and farming really is that. It's very physical and you're really interacting with the day-to-day, um, aspects of our world all the time. Um, so that was kind of like my first touch of farming after doing physics. And I I went on to do quite a few things in, um, physics and art and where the two come together. Um, but I kept kind of being drawn back into farming, obviously by visiting my parents once a year. Um, and at some point, I think I, um, I had this realisation, um, that one, farming is really difficult. So do not be conned. It's not that easy. Um, it is this amazing web of interactions. You know, the climate's always changing. You never know what pest disease might be around the corner. Um, all your, you know, your neighbours may cut down some trees and then suddenly you've got flooding on your land. It's just so many different things going on at once and the markets are all changing. So it's just, it's an insane discipline in a way. Um, maybe like medicine, like there's so many different factors that could be at play, right? Um, and so it was really that realisation in in amongst that that wow, also farmers are the people who are making the decisions in their day-to-day lives that affect all of us. Like they are the people who are interacting with the natural world day-to-day. Um, and if they decide to, yeah, if they decide to cut down some trees because you know, they need to sell that wood so they can feed their family, but that could actually end up causing flooding in the nearby town. Um, and obviously, I'm not, there's no blame there or anything. It's just recognising how linked it all is. Um, and, you know, and how farmers decide to graze their animals, for example. There's certain types of grazing that allow the, um, allow much, you know, carbon to be sequestered in the soil versus, uh, other types of grazing that can be quite detrimental to the landscape. So yeah, that really got me fired up. Um, and, uh, alongside that, um, so, you know, realising farmers are the decision makers, um, of our future essentially, or one of the decision makers of our future. And then alongside that, my dad, um, was asking some questions about how to manage the olive trees. So we had 8,000 olive trees and he just could not keep track of what was happening with all of them, as of course. Um, and it's only a small farm. We're, you know, we're farming on around, uh, 15 hectares. So that's it's not very big really. And he needed a way to keep track of all of that stuff. And I, because I had a background in physics, I can code. And so, um, I, uh, created some apps for him essentially, um, and for our family's farm that would allow us to keep track of what was happening with the trees. Um, and that what started as a side project kind of ended up being something much more, um, where neighbours got involved and they started using it and, um, and so now that's I spend quite a bit of my time or most of my time really, um, on our business, which is, our farm is called VidaCycle Farm, and then the apps are called VidaCycle apps. Um, and we make an app specifically for supporting farmers in their observations, um, around trees and agroforestry, um, one more focused on vineyards. Um, and then finally one that's called Soil Mentor, and that's all about empowering farmers to, um, analyse their own soil essentially. So start to be able to go out there, look at the soil, understand what's happening, um, you know, really understand the biological interactions that are going on, and then, uh, start to make some assessments, you know, going back to the same plot the next year, looking what's changed and, yeah, really understanding the trends essentially, because, yeah, I can go into that more later, but at the core of some of the realisations we've had on our farm is that every farm is different and that really you need to understand what's happening on that, on your land and in your in those soils and with the water that's there, you know, understanding all these interactions.

Dr Rupy: I I love, I love how, um, you know, your background in, uh, particle physics, which is all about lateral thinking and thinking really out the box has led you to what some might regard as something quite simplistic or something like quite back to basics. But like you've said quite eloquently in one of your articles, um, that I'll link to in the show notes, you know, farmers are the caretakers of the earth and it's one of the most important jobs out there in the world. And like you said, you know, if farmers decide to do something very different, it will impact not only their local communities, but as a collective organisation, it affects the entire world. Um, and this is why I think it's really important for people to recognise the magnitude of how we as consumers impact farming and how farmers themselves impact, uh, the world as well. Um, I I want to get into a bit about what regenerative farming is, because this is a term that I think by my own ignorant admission, I've probably only heard of in the last year and I haven't really delved much into. Um, I actually wrote a chapter in my first book called sustainable, local and organic and what those mean and and why we need to eat a little bit more slow. But regenerative farming is kind of like the next level up. It's far beyond, you know, just slapping an organic and sustainable label on a product and as a means to attract new consumers. It's it's a almost like a way of life. So why don't we dive into regenerative farming and and how it came to you as well, how you got involved?

Abby Rose: Yeah, totally. Um, so, well, regenerative farming, I think it's it's not, uh, nothing to be embarrassed about that you've only come to it in the last year because I'd say it's a relatively like recent term and phenomenon. It is still kind of growing around the globe. It's growing in awareness and understanding. And part of that also is that it doesn't really have a definition. Um, so we can't just box that up there. But, um, it's it's a mindset, it's an ethos and it's it's an approach, um, that is very much focused around soil health, um, and biodiversity. So it's when farmers are prioritising building soil health on their farm and building biodiversity. Um, and by having that be kind of the driving, uh, goal or aim, um, there's all sorts of other things that come along with that. Um, and yeah, so that that's how I would explain it really quickly. And I think what's interesting is that, you know, regenerative farming is, uh, one one approach, but what it's started to kind of, uh, unravel into is like regenerative economics, regenerative living. It is one of these funny things that because your mindset changes around how you're farming, um, suddenly it ripples out into all other areas of life. Um, which has been really interesting to watch. But I guess the other thing to say is like, um, in terms of, you know, what might a regenerative farmer be doing that's different than, um, a more chemically based farmer or a conventional farmer. Um, I guess the the first thing would be like, um, planting, um, well, there's the the soil health principles are kind of at the core of what regenerative farming is. So one of those is increased diversity. Um, so there's things like, um, there's evidence out there that shows that if you plant many different types of crops, right, they have many different types of roots and they'll go to different rooting depths. And therefore, that's feeding all different types of microbes and bacteria in the soil. Um, so it's, yeah, you really need diversity, um, in your cropping system in order to be able to access all the different things that are available to you in the soil. Um, so that's one of the things. The other things is like, the other thing is, um, or another principle, sorry, is, uh, introduce animals in the system. Um, it has generally in a regenerative system, it makes sense to have the animals there, um, and be grazing them in a specific way where you're moving them very regularly. Um, and it's something or there's lots of science behind it, but the interaction between the animal and the eating of grass, for example, um, it's shown that when you have the animals eating grass to a certain point, it makes the grass grow back much faster. Um, and then that allows for the grass to, uh, it photosynthesises more, and therefore it's like putting more nutrients into the soil or carbon into the soil really. Um, and then again, that's feeding all the soil life below it. Um, so those are some of the key things that happen. Um, I guess also it's about reducing your reliance on chemicals and artificials.

Dr Rupy: And and is there, and this just comes back from, you know, me thinking out loud here, is there an impact of the soil microbiome and the plants that it produces and an impact on our microbiome? Because I think, um, a lot more people are getting, uh, a little bit more educated on how we live in a symbiotic relationship with a number of different microbes, largely bacteria, but nematodes, fungi, viruses even, uh, in the same way our soil is, you know, this huge network of of microbes. Is there is there a relationship there as well that that you're aware of?

Abby Rose: Well, I mean, I think that is like, I think there's a lot of very exciting cutting edge research in that area right now. And I don't think there's a definitive answer is the truth. But I do think there are some, it's incredibly parallels between the two. Just the idea, you know, of the root system and this, you know, what we call the area around the roots is the rhizosphere, um, and all of the interactions that are happening at that point and that that's how nutrition is transferred. And then paralleling that with, you know, your gut lining, um, and that huge surface area of the gut and that all the microbes that are living in our gut, um, and how that's allowing the human to be nurtured. And I think the other thing that's really interesting is the parallel between the requirement for diversity. Um, so not only do you need a diversity in crops, but you also, in order to be able to get all the different nutrients that the plant wants, it's really important to have a huge diversity of microbial life. Um, as soon as that starts depleting, you know, that's linked to increased disease pressure, um, because, you know, you'll end up with an overpopulation of a certain nematode, um, and then it actually starts being very negative and it'll like eat your potatoes rather than help, uh, kill other things in the soil. Um, and similarly, um, my understanding of the microbiome of the gut, which I have to, you know, I am not, um, fully informed on by any means, but I'm interested in, um, is that diversity is really, really important and that that is a large part of, you know, changing your eating habits to foster diversity. Um, and in particular fibre, uh, as a way of doing that. I think that's really interesting. And yeah, and I think the next question and I haven't read anyone who's absolutely said anything either way, but is are the the microbial makeup of the soil, how much is that reflected in the gut and how how much are they connected? And I think that's a massive question that I'm really excited as we uncover more over the next few years.

Dr Rupy: Definitely. I mean, you you definitely wrote about diversity for sure. So I always like to, you know, bring the analogy of like bored children, you need to give them diverse things to do and that's the same thing with your microbiota. You need to give them interesting bits of food and substrate to use a chemical language. Um, but there is advice, uh, I forget the European organisation now that you want to try and get, um, 30 different varieties of food, uh, in a in a week, um, if possible to to try and nurture that diversity and actually nurture the health of your microbial population. Um, and I wanted to touch on crop rotation there because that's super important from what I've read about regenerative farming. Um, it sounds really time intensive because you can't just grow wheat year in year out. You have to grow wheat what sometimes once every four years and then in the middle of that, it's like things like clover and things like pulses and legumes that all sound very delicious to me. But from from the perspective of a farmer who's trying to optimise their produce, I can imagine it's it's quite a headache to deal with all that, all those different, you know, um, parameters. Can can you tell us a bit more about that?

Abby Rose: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, one of the other complexities of farming. So, um, and I mean, organic farmers have been doing this for a long, long time, um, but now most farmers are doing rotations today because they have to. And it is core to a lot of regenerative farming, as you say, it's one way of bringing diversity in. Um, and so basically, yeah, if you have any wheat grown in the UK, the require, you know, for wheat to grow, it requires a certain like nutrient profile and it's quite nitrogen intensive. Um, and so you have to have a lot of nitrogen in the soil to make a really good crop of wheat. Um, and if you do that one year, the next year, you're not going to have very much left. And then the year after that, they're just, you won't even be able to harvest a crop, basically. So that's why you have to, if you grow your crop of wheat, then you have to do a whole, um, nutrient building cycle to naturally allow those natural systems to get back to a place where they've, you know, re-upped the nitrogen levels in that soil. And that's why, um, you know, if as a farmer, say wheat is your main crop and you have, um, X number of fields, you need to make sure that or only, if you have a four-year rotation, only 25% of your farm can ever be in wheat in one year. Um, and then, you know, you the next part of your rotation may well be clover, probably for two, maybe three years. Um, and more common today is not just clover, obviously, but a herbal, they call it a herbal lay, or it's just a a mix of lots of different types of grasses and herbs, um, and different flowers to, it's, yeah, it's all this idea of how can we work with the soil to bring back the nutrients we need in order to be able to grow that next crop of wheat. Um, yeah, so I think it and there's huge like potential there as well. And that's what's really exciting. Like, um, I think you've talked about Hodmedods before. But, you know, they're really working with farmers in this brilliant way where they're saying, look, uh, you know, if you grow this Carlin pea as part of your rotation, you know, in the third year, say, um, we can actually have that be something humans can eat. You know, so not only is it like doing great work in your soil, but we can also then share that with people, um, in the UK and it's all like, you know, for farmers, that's amazing because they need to be able to pay for that field that year. Um, and it's about nourishing human beings, uh, you know, Carlin peas are brilliant. Um, so I think although the rotation can seem a headache, I think more and more opportunities are opening up for it to actually be like, um, a real positive, um, and for us to be eating diets that reflect rotations would be an amazing end goal.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. I I you know, my first sort of initial reaction to the idea of crop rotation was, well, that's not going to be very economically viable for a farmer because they're going to negate the yield for a couple of years whilst they're trying to increase the soil health. But actually, from the perspective that you've just given us that, it's actually quite an interesting opportunity to not only nourish the soil, but also diversify your your income stream as well. And I I'm saying this as a complete lay person, so I might be completely wrong. Um, but that's a lovely segue into another topic that I get asked about a lot, which is bioavailability and how soil health is impacting negatively or in this regenerative farming method, potentially positively, the nutritional content of food. And this is where it kind of plays into my, um, interest in, uh, food and and health and and disease prevention. Um, what what can we talk about when it comes to bioavailability of food, how that's progressed over the last couple of decades and and how this method of farming impacts, um, uh, the the nutritional content of the produce?

Abby Rose: Yeah, totally. Well, I think there's a, you know, a number of studies out there that definitely that show that over the last 60 to 70 years, there's been a decrease in the nutritional value of our food. Um, particularly particularly some, um, uh, different, yeah, different nutritional like it's difficult in a way to say how nutritional is that food, right? Because we've only ever looked at calories in the past and suddenly we're trying to say, well, it's got X, Y and Z, therefore it's nutritionally relevant. But I think as science is progressing, we're realising our understanding is actually very limited on what is nutritionally relevant. So I think, but for sure, like there's a study that shows that, you know, for oranges, um, the the vitamin C content that, for example, would have our grandparents could have got from one orange, we would now need to eat eight oranges. So that eight oranges. Something like, yeah, it's it's crazy. Um, so it's definitely changing, um, and reducing in some way. There is also, I guess the reason I said that about our understanding is limited because there are also many, um, you know, reports, scientific papers out there that say, well, actually, you know, the, uh, magnesium content hasn't changed at all. So it depends what you're focusing on in some ways, but it's definitely changing and there's definitely reductions in certain ways. And I think a lot of that, you know, people have, um, said that that and have shown that that is related to the reduction in nutrients in our soil. Um, and in particular, um, there's a movement from within the farming community actually to start to think about, you know, what is the nutritional density of our food? Um, and I think, you know, one thing that's really important to always remember is that farmers, well, many, many farmers that I meet, they really do care, um, and they want to be creating food that nourishes people, like, um, yeah, I think that's true of many, many farmers. Um, and so this amazing movement from within the farming community, which is sort of led by the Bionutrient Food Association in the United States, um, is all about how can we start to ensure that we're delivering food with high nutrient density to people. Um, and that's where there's a a UK kind of subsidiary of that movement now called Griffin, or G R F F N, growing food for nutrition. Um, and they are focused on helping people to measure the nutrient density of the food we're producing.

Dr Rupy: And so how do we actually measure the nutrient density of food? Because in my head, there's almost like two snapshot ways you could you could compare food. One is looking at the typical sort of micronutrients, vitamins and minerals. And those can be quite closely matched between different types of produce and and different methods of farming. But it's those secondary metabolites, the things that I'm super interested in, like, you know, phytonutrients, um, all the different polyphenols in food, the pigments, the the actual natural, to to, you know, use that that term, I guess, um, the natural pesticides that the plant produces to ward itself off from from pests. Um, and and how we measure those and the differences between them. Uh, I I understand that there's like, you know, the bricks test and bionutrient sensors, but this is a whole mindful for me because I haven't even I haven't I haven't had first hand use of this, so.

Abby Rose: Totally. And I think, I think phytonutrients are incredibly interesting because in a way, that is the direct relationship to soil health. Because, you know, if phytonu, you know, plants can't move, so they need to be able to produce their own defenses. And if, the way plants, you know, start to defend themselves is through this communication network. Um, when the communication network's broken, um, and they aren't able to gather the different nutrient or the different things they need from the soil, then their phytonutrient response or what they produce in that sense is is going to change. And I do think that that, um, I mean, the the, you know, the simplest expression of that is, um, growing things that aren't in soil. Um, and seeing that, you know, you can give them the the NPK, the nitrogen, potassium and phosphate, but they don't, they've been shown to not as not produce phytonutrients in the same way.

Dr Rupy: Okay, so that's hydroponics versus produce grown in in soil.

Abby Rose: Yeah, and I guess part of that is just because they also, you know, because they're being grown in such like safe environments, they're not being exposed to those, uh, same risks as such, and therefore they have no requirement to create phytonutrients. Um, and therefore, when you're eating food that hasn't been under any stress in its life, you're you're eating food that doesn't have the phytonutrients in it. Um, sorry, I feel like I went circular off your question there. What was the original question?

Dr Rupy: Oh, the the original question was basically how we measure nutrient density in food itself and um, and yeah, and the standards around that.

Abby Rose: Totally. So I think, so the Griffin, um, they are working with the Bionutrient Association to create what they're calling a bionutrient meter. Um, and so the main, as you said, the most basic understanding of of, uh, nutritional density of a or nutrient density of a food is this bricks test. But really the bricks test, um, it's just telling you essentially the the the carbohydrate content or the sugar content of that food. Um, and also you can you can sort of tell a little bit also from a bricks test how complex the different, um, the makeup of the molecules is by how fuzzy the line is essentially. But other than that, you can't tell much more from a bricks test as far as I understand it. Um, so that, but that's still a really good initial measure. Like if you were growing some carrots and you wanted to understand how nutrient dense they are, you could take a few carrots, crush them up with a garlic crusher and then you can buy a bricks meter, they're like 10 pounds online. Um, and you can put the juice and see, you know, what is your bricks reading and then compare different ones. Um, but the bionutrient meter is very much, it's a work in progress. So they have created something that is based on spectroscopy essentially, or a spectral analysis. Um, and the idea of the whole movement is to start to map that to different, um, ways of codifying what does it mean to have a nutrient dense food. So it's by no means already, uh, set in stone what that means, if you see what I mean? It's meant to, it's like a basically a a global citizen science project to start to map, uh, have many, many people use this bionutrient meter, um, share their spectral analysis and then start to map where are, you know, what, oh, okay, so these carrots also had, um, uh, a good smell and they were also from a, you know, a, I don't know, they had all these other qualities and they had this spectral analysis. What does that mean? So it's a big, yeah, it's all up in the air at the moment and it's a big mapping project to start to be able to define what is a nutrient dense food.

Dr Rupy: That's brilliant. I I can so imagine like a lot of people getting involved in that, either growing at home or buying produce from certain supermarkets or certain growers and actually measuring that and uploading the data online. It's it's like this new wave of social experimentation which everyone sort of contributes to in terms of, um, you know, providing the data which leads to a much more sort of robust, um, data set which is right for analysis. Um, that's amazing. That that sounds super, super interesting. And and the other aspect I think is the bioavailability of the food, right? So, you know, you can have, um, breads, just to use an example that you talked about quite a bit, obviously in the serial episode, um, of your podcast where a bread can, you know, have on the packaging, it contains zinc, it contains magnesium, it contains riboflavin, one of the B vitamins. Um, but the bioavailability of those vitamins may be different depending on how the bread was created, i.e, its fermentation process, the amount of different antinutrients, um, etc. Is that something that bionutrient sensors and and bionutrient meters can assess as well? Or is that like another sort of experiment?

Abby Rose: Yeah, I so I I don't think we're there yet is the truth. I mean, I think that, um, obviously the bioavailability of different nutrients is also key to it all. Um, and as you said, in the serial series, um, like Andrew Whitley of Scotland the Bread, he talks a lot about how, uh, the sourdough fermentation, um, changes the bioavailability of nutrients. Um, and so I've, yeah, I've heard a lot about that in terms of, um, kind of once something's, uh, come out of the ground, um, then in the processing of it, how we manipulate the bioavailability of things. Um, in terms of the bioavailability of nutrients directly from the farm or the whatever's coming off the farm and how that is affected by the farming methods. I don't know, but I think it's a good, really good question.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, because it almost speaks to this new measurement of output or productivity from farms being, you know, the number of people nourished per hectare rather than the mass produced of said crop per hectare. And I know that sounds like quite a fantastical sort of idea or, you know, something that most farmers wouldn't want to change according to like how everything is done and because it's so traditional. But I think that would be an amazing accomplishment if we were able to do that because, you know, it's not just when you when you produce crop, it's, you know, even for animals, it's not just about the mass or the the produce itself, it's about how it nourishes because that's fundamentally what farming's there for. It's to nourish populations.

Abby Rose: Agreed. Yeah, and I think, I think a lot of farmers would be open to that. You know, how many, uh, people are nourished per acre from this farm? Like, I think actually they are excited about that. Um, because, you know, I mean, I can get into a real tangent here, but the truth is is like most farmers feel, well, I shouldn't say most, but many farmers I talk to feel quite disillusioned with, um, the process in many ways because although farmers are producing food, a lot of it is just commodities. Um, and, you know, commodities are essentially something, they grow wheat, but then they never know what happens to that wheat. It just gets shipped off in a big truck, um, and then it's like traded somewhere on global markets. Um, who know, you know, they don't know what happens to it or or it goes to feed chickens or it's just unknown. So although they are in quote unquote producing food, actually, it become very disconnected from that reality. And I think that was something else in the serial series that really came up was, um, by talking to bakers, um, farmers, the one farmer in particular, Mark Lee, um, in Shropshire, you know, he had this real epiphany moment where he has a grain store on his farm. He's had it for like, whatever, 20, 20 years, been growing wheat all that time. And he'd never considered going into the grain store, getting some of the wheat he had grown, grinding it up in a little mini mill and then making something from it. Wow. He just, it just hadn't been considered. And and I think, you know, and a number of farmers got in touch with us after that, after we created this series, serial, um, and said like, I had never ever considered eating the wheat that I grown. And how much that impacted them in terms of being able to reconnect with the idea that they are food producers. Yeah. Um, and and that that's a real honour, um, and that they do want to be doing that and that's where the joy comes from, that's part of the joy of farming. And so the idea that, you know, seeing their farm as nutrient or food, you know, nutritional value per acre to people is like, I think people, yeah, farmers get excited about that.

Dr Rupy: That's amazing. That's awesome. I I mean, I'm conscious that we're painting this beautiful picture of regenerative farming and how like, you know, utopian it is and, you know, farming based on soil health, reducing inputs, more trees, more crop rotation, introducing animals. It sounds very, very beautiful. But I wonder what are the arguments against this method of farming? And and is this achievable at scale? Because I think that's one of the major arguments against organic farming, which is a sort of less extreme or like, you know, regenerative farming light, if you will, version of of of crop production. But, um, I I wonder kind of what are the arguments and and the cons of of regenerative farming as it stands?

Abby Rose: Well, I think one of the interesting things about regenerative farming, and I think, sorry, this isn't quite answering your question. I will answer your question as well. But, um, one of the interesting things about regenerative farming and why it is becoming such a name really is that it's not as dogmatic as organic farming. So from a farmer's perspective, there's lots of reasons to not be organic because it's a real, um, it's a very structured kind of tick box exercise in a way. Whereas there's many, um, chemical based farmers who maybe focusing on their soil health and biodiversity and becoming regenerative, you know, they're on a regenerative journey and they're still using chemicals on their farm. And I, you know, that's just, that's part of it. Like, you know, a farmer Fred Price in Somerset, he's over the last eight years transitioned from a completely chemical based or conventional farm to now a, he's basically organic, he's not certified, but he doesn't use any inputs or chemical inputs on his farm. And I think, you know, all through that journey, you would say he was becoming a regenerative or he was on a regenerative journey because he was, it started with focusing on his soil health, but then all these other things come up and you start to change the way you do everything. So, um, yeah, I'd say it's actually quite an inclusive, um, uh, practice, uh, and it's not there to shame people or say they're not doing things right. It's about, okay, well, actually this could be quite helpful to you. Even, you know, even if you want to continue farming in the way you are, just even starting to ask questions about your soil health probably is going to help you out. Um, on the other hand, who are the critics? Um, I mean, yeah, there there's certainly a pervasive narrative or story out there that says that we need intensive industrial farming to feed the world. Um, and I think it's amazing how strong that is in people. And also the other argument against it is that people often think that, you know, regenerative farming will mean more expensive food. Um, but what I would say, um, about the first point anyway is that currently today, the Food and Agricultural Organisation, FAO, um, they should put out a statistic that says that 70% of the world's food today comes from small scale family farms, using only 30% of the world's agricultural resources. And then only 30% of the world's food today comes from industrial or larger scale farms.

Dr Rupy: Wow. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have guessed those figures. I would have thought it would have been exactly the other way around.

Abby Rose: Totally. And I think, I you know, I can kind of understand why those figures stand. That's because basically a lot of intensive or larger scale industrial farming is about producing these commodities. And commodities don't generally feed people. Right? They go to feed animals for one, or they go to be made into energy. Um, so there's a huge amount of, uh, farming that's done today that is actually producing crops that feed animals or are used for energy production. So I think it's not food is the truth. Even though it may appear to be food when it's in the field, um, those crops are not food. And I I think, you know, again, I think it's always important to not judge people. Like I totally get why farmers grow commodities. Um, and it's the system they're part of and they're making a living and they're doing their business and, you know, I have respect for it in fact, like they're doing what they need to do. But if we recognise that that's the system we've built, um, it's not particularly effective for feeding humans, basically. Um, so, yeah, so I think once you start to realise that that kind of perspective, then you can see that, oh, wow, okay, so actually, we've got a system that's great for commodity production, not so great for food production. Even making little changes, um, you know, even just saying a farmer takes one field and starts to grow that in a slightly different way and then they're able to sell it to a local mill. Um, those small changes are really going to start to, um, really kind of transform the food system, I would say, um, to being one of just production to one of feeding people.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, because like one of the main arguments and I and I'll be honest, I I was of this opinion myself as well, perhaps before I started reading into this is that, well, you have to have industrial farming and intensive farming to feed the number of people and the number of people that will exist in the next 10, 15 years time. Um, because there is no other more, um, productive way of producing food. But this this was a real eye opener for me because I didn't actually, I mean, I I haven't paid much attention to it, I guess over the last five years. Um, and it was only until I I started examining it in a bit more detail, but, um, that's definitely the narrative that's been painted. I think a lot of people would would would still believe that, understandably so.

Abby Rose: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I I think what like there was just a paper released in the last few weeks that showed, for example, that, you know, intercropping, so, um, uh, growing two crops together can give a 16 to 30% larger yield per unit area than a monoculture while using 30, 19 to 30% less fertilizer. And that was, um, a research, a project done in China and they showed that outcome over a number of years. And so I think that the idea that we're like at the pinnacle of human invention in our farming endeavors and that this monocultural commodity system is the ultimate, like, I mean, if I was in my most kind of, um, conspiracy theory mode or some of my friends who are more into that, they'd say like, oh, you know, the agrochemical companies are selling us a lie. Right? I don't, I don't actually believe people are evil generally. So I don't think people are actively trying to con us. Um, I think there are many people out there who still very much believe that that is the pinnacle of human, uh, endeavors in agriculture. Um, but it's not what you see on the ground. And that's I think the difference. Like it may look that way on their spreadsheets, but the reality is is that when you go to farms and see what's being grown, it's the smaller scale farms that actually grow food.

Dr Rupy: Wow. That's super powerful. And it's, yeah, it's definitely something, um, I'm going to be paying a lot more attention. And and and to this, this is a beautiful segue from the conspiracy theories around large agritech companies controlling the masses. Um, seeds and this whole heritage grain movement and grain sovereignty. So I did a podcast earlier in the year with Karen, um, from the Yummy Tummy company, wonderful woman, um, amazing person who's super passionate about bread and everything. And, um, she started talking about seed banks and and what the issues are with that. And some of the comments on social media were quite dismissive of some of the remarks. And I remember we had a conversation about this. Um, and I wonder because I I'm not, I'm still educating myself on this. I wonder if you could lend your two cents on seed banks, what they are, what the controversies around them are and and what this new movement around grain sovereignty and and heritage grains is. So it's a big question.

Abby Rose: Yeah, yeah. Um, okay, yeah. Well, I'd say, I I think, um, what happened or my understanding of what's happened in the seed world, particularly, let's if we just focus in on cereals essentially, so around, for example, wheat, is that, um, laws were passed in the EU, um, and similar in the US and it's similar in many countries that say it's meant to be like a almost like a biosecurity law. So it's kind of, it's meant to protect farmers so that they aren't being sold seed that's bad. Um, and it's also meant to protect kind of, um, yeah, it's meant to protect everyone in terms of not allowing this kind of, uh, trade of seeds that is weakening the quality of our produce. But, um, what happened with that law is that they said, okay, you are only allowed to share or sell seeds if they're on this list, which is verified by the EU. And as soon as you get that kind of, uh, you know, it's almost like a very, you know, it's a register and you have to pay to be on the register, um, and you have to have gone through extensive scientific trials on your seeds to be on the register. Um, and you also have to hit, um, a certain, you know, they had some measures of what a good seed was and that was like, your seeds had to be uniform, um, uh, what are the exact words? They have three exact words that they have to be.

Dr Rupy: Is it genetically stable, different variety?

Abby Rose: Yeah, uniform, oh, distinct and stable. Yes. Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly. Okay. And so what, yeah, what happened is essentially that of course, only the companies who can afford to be doing the research at that level, um, and, uh, you know, afford to get all these, um, certificate certificates from the bodies that say yes or no, were able to, uh, create seeds, um, that were on the market. And then those, you know, and so and farmers were only allowed to use those seeds. That's the crazy thing. It's like, even if you wanted to give some of your seeds to your neighbour, that is illegal.

Dr Rupy: Wow.

Abby Rose: And that's, that's where it becomes really weird, right? Um, because, yeah, it's just, that's not okay to be so controlling of seeds, which are something that's almost like, you know, they're a, um, they're owned by everyone or in my view, they should be owned by everyone. They're part of the natural world, um, and they're the root of humanity in a way, because without them, we're not going to get very far. Yeah. Um, so that register is, it's, it's, it came from a good place potentially, but it's had some really negative impacts. And one of those is that those, um, uniform, discrete and stable, um, requirements meant that, um, there's no diversity in the seeds. And you know, we talked about diversity as being key.

Dr Rupy: And this is what I wanted to ask you about because one of the, one of the requirements is that it's genetically stable. That that for me doesn't make sense from an evolutionary point of view because you want something to be genetically almost, uh, malleable as it grows and adapts to our rapidly changing climate as well, right? So, so that for me immediately as a non-farmer, someone who who doesn't understand this, just strikes me as a little bit odd. And from what I've understood from from you guys, the podcast, a few other bits of, uh, reading I've done around this is that, um, there's this real drive to trade sort of non-registered or unlisted seeds in an an effort not to, you know, create some interesting crops, but actually in an effort to sort of save the planet because if we are creating a number of different products and and crops that are are not adaptable, then we're going to have to rely even more so on inputs and artificial environments to maintain the health of them.

Abby Rose: Absolutely. And I think that is key. So that's one of the really exciting things and, um, that has kind of responded to those requirements. So there's, um, a man called Professor Martin Wolf. Um, he passed away last year, unfortunately, and very sadly, but he was a real, um, pioneer in this area because he is, you know, he was a professor in Cambridge, um, in plant sciences. And originally he was developing, um, uh, different like fungicides and his whole aim was around, you know, how can we beat these fungi or these fungal, uh, yeah, the problem, the disease, fungal diseases. Um, and kind of his insight was that he was never going to beat the fungal diseases because every single year, they were changing, you know, as you just pointed out, they're like, the genetics adapt and evolve and it's constantly evolving. And so the what he spent the last 20 years of his life committed to is this place, um, in Suffolk called Wakelyns, Wakelyns Agroforestry. And it's like, I don't know, it's like this scientific centre of diversity. Um, and it's like filled with different trees, um, and it's showing what it might look like to grow with diversity at the core. And as part of that, he had a breeding program, um, where he bred this, uh, what they call a population wheat. Um, so he took many different modern varieties of wheat and he crossed the genetics between all of them. Um, and then he, uh, planted those crossed genetics, um, and obviously what he got out was a, a wheat field which had lots of unpredictable characteristics essentially. Um, and then he kept building that, um, population, um, and now it's called the the YQ, um, population. And he was breeding it for yield and quality. That's why it's called YQ. So not just yield, which is what people have often bred for. And I think, just to be clear what a population is, a population means that all the, you know, the genetics of all the seeds is different essentially, or there's a lot of different genetics in the seeds. Um, you know, most wheat fields you see are monocultures. Um, and that is what the seed registry says is like every single seed must have exactly the same genetics, otherwise it's no good. But that is crazy because, you know, if a pest comes along or if a disease comes along, it can wipe out that whole field like in seconds almost, you know, it's just like, it's so easy to, to destroy or if, you know, if you get a hailstorm at the wrong side, wrong time and every single one of those plants is just bursting into life, it may destroy all of them at once because they're all at exactly the same, uh, time in their cycle. Whereas if you have a population wheat, so you have a field with all these different wheats that have slightly different genes and respond slightly differently to the environment, um, then they're, you know, they're all at different stages when a, a hailstorm hits. And so some of them will go down, but some of them will be fine and they'll carry on growing. And, um, so, yeah, and what part of his insight was that resilience, um, or the ability to kind of beat in inverted commas these fungal diseases actually comes through having huge genetic diversity, um, in the field. And that's the only way that you'll be able to kind of survive in the long term in an ever-changing climate. Um, so yeah, I think that is a really amazing insight that resilience truly comes through diversity. And so the more we can move away from monocultures and these very kind of, uh, one-dimensional seeds into the diversity and seeds that have lots of genetic variation, um, the better off we'll be, especially, you know, in the face of changing climates and who knows what's to come.

Dr Rupy: Exactly. Yeah. And I think, you know, right now we understand how vulnerable we are as a population. Um, and it sounds as if some of these strict regulations, whether it came from a good place or a bad place or whatever, is impeding natural evolution, promoting monoculture and makes it a lot more vulnerable to the the changing, uh, climate. Um, what I understand is that, uh, there have been some efforts to almost bypass these laws or, um, encourage trading of unlisted seeds. Is that is that still going ahead?

Abby Rose: Yeah. Definitely. Um, I mean, obviously, not many farmers get on the radio and talk about it, but absolutely. Like, um, well, I guess, you know, they, they recognise the need for this as much as anyone. And also there's huge demand now for it. So heritage wheats are are slightly different than what Martin Wolf created because he was using modern wheat varieties to create his populations. But there's also heritage wheats, um, and they are, you know, uh, seeds kind of from wheats that were like pre or that haven't been bred since like, I think it's around the 1950s. Everyone has slightly different definition. But anyway, they're older seeds varieties. Um, and so they inherently haven't been through this kind of monocultural breeding process. And so they have more genetic diversity in them often. Um, and so yeah, a lot and and they the bakers are now demanding them, not demanding, that's awful, but they're really excited about them is the truth. Yeah. And, you know, farmers, obviously, when they see bakers excited about something, they want to grow it. Um, so they're out there. Um, there's, I'm not going to name anyone, but there's certainly like there's grain, there's grain networks out there, um, now and it's all, you know, it's connecting bakers to millers to farmers and they're all working together to, um, build up the infrastructure, I guess, so that we can, you know, have more bread that is made using these grains that have all this diversity in them, um, so it's almost like you could imagine, it's like eating a regenerative loaf in a sense because you can know that the soil in the field where that wheat, that population wheat was grown, um, was actually being nourished through growing that wheat rather than depleted.

Dr Rupy: And and and this brings me on to the other topic about politics and farming. You can't really talk about growing food without really talking about subsidies, um, how farmers are, uh, uh, repaid and, um, you know, remunerated for for the work. Um, and the changing landscape of, uh, the UK, EU and how that might change, uh, laws around, uh, seeds, um, but also, yeah, like I said, like how farmers are, um, remunerated for the work. What, um, what do you think's going to go on with, I know this is like the ultimate question, but like post Brexit, is there anything suggestive of a positive outcome from leaving the EU?

Abby Rose: Yeah. Well, um, I mean, there's certainly, you know, change always brings opportunity, I would say, in one sense. Um, and, um, and so I think that there's definitely, over the last few years, the farming community in many ways has felt like there was opportunity because of this subsidy system change. So, I mean, I think it's really important to paint a picture that like 60% of income on UK farms comes from subsidies. Wow. So, it's really important to most UK farms. Like, you know, we don't pay very much for our food, farm or and certainly like if you're buying from a supermarket, it's something like less than 5% of the amount you pay is going back to the farmer. Wow. It's crazy. That's insane. Oh my god. Maybe that, maybe it's 10%. But anyway, the point is it should be much, much higher and it's not. Um, so, yeah, so at the farm level, you're not getting much back for your food. Um, so, especially if it's going through a supermarket. Um, and so they are relying on subsidies. And so in that sense, they're always having to understand, you know, what kind of boxes they need to tick for the government in order to get their subsidies. Um, and so the fact that we're no longer in the EU means that now the UK government is going to determine how farmers get paid their subsidies. And, uh, until, you know, in the EU, it's always been that or well, in the last whatever, 20 years, it's been based on that you get paid based on how much land you have. That's like the basic payment structure. And then there were some environmental schemes on top of that. And the government said that that's absolutely going. So, which every, I think pretty much everyone agrees is a good thing. Like it doesn't make any sense to get paid more if you have more land. Yeah. Um, and, um, so, and what they're looking to bring in is an environmental land management scheme. It's still very much in early stages, but, you know, the the tagline is public money for public goods. And it's the idea that, um, you know, uh, improving water quality, having more different types of birds on your farm, um, having more earthworms in your soil, all of these are things that essentially are a public good. Um, and so can we find ways to have, uh, farmers be paid for these environmental gains that that positively affect all of us, as we kind of, that's where we started in a way. You know, it's like if they do have a a forest on their land, you know, by keeping that in a good state, that is a good for all of us. Like we all benefit from that. Um, so can we find a system that works for that? So I think there's still a ways to go, um, what exactly that's going to look like. But, you know, in its most basic form, it sounds better. Um, as with all these things, it will just, it's all, devil's in the detail. And it's, it's going to be difficult to find a way of, um, having, you know, positively compensating farmers for that without forcing them to do weird things, um, to get that money. Um, and I think the other side to it also that's almost more daunting is the trade deals. Um, yeah. And, uh, you know, the agricultural food, the agricultural bill was or is almost basically being passed right now. Um, and a number of the farming community, including the National Farmers Union, the NFU, had tried to, um, add in something about not allowing, uh, for food imports from countries where the food standards were lower. Um, and that was voted down. Um, so that addendum has not been put in. Um, so we'll see when they build the the trade policy or the trade bill, you know, I guess we all need to come together, you know, if you care or if you don't want, um, your meat, it may be cheaper, but it will be potentially like, you know, coming from the US, their standards are very different and potentially lower and it may be filled with many more hormones, um, or for example, the chickens are dipped in chlorine because, uh, the living environment of the chickens is so kind of filthy that they want to make sure they get rid of all of the, um, microbes on those poorly kept chickens. Um, so if we don't want that to be coming into our system, then we really need to rally around and tell the government that we don't want that.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, I think most people listening to this and even people who don't, you know, will will recognise that the American food system is a lot more broken than most countries, particularly like industrialised countries. And I I'm pretty sure everyone would unite in thinking that, you know, we can't let that happen. Um, and I really hope that that doesn't, particularly from the example that you've talked about, and I think a lot more people are aware of that as it's made national press. But also the argument around GMO as well. And this is like the big, big question. And I I you know, I've taken, it's taken so long to get to this point and I it probably warrants its own podcast, um, for people looking at pro and against. And I'm pretty sure I understand what your view of GMO is going to be. Um, I I think it's important to point out that within the EU, GMO is very, uh, it's rare from my understanding. It's not something that is ingrained in our system. But now with Brexit, who knows? Uh, you know, there there are trade deals to be struck, particularly with America where GMO is used a lot. Uh, I wonder if you can give us your thoughts on GMO and, um, and the comparisons with with the gene editing as well, which is a relatively newer concept.

Abby Rose: Yeah. So I think, you know, I am a scientist by training and I can understand why many people in the science world are excited about GMOs. Um, because in many ways, it does, you know, it makes sense that we can, we don't have to deal with disease at the end, we'll just edit it out in the beginning. Um, and I, yeah, so I get that. On the other hand, I think that, you know, if we go back to just that that comment about monoculture versus diversity, you can't breed diverse GMO seeds. Like that's not a thing, right? Diversity is something that occurs through this process of evolution that's happening naturally. Like we we aren't, so as soon as you go down the gene editing, the GMO route, you're you're trapped back in that monocultural system. Um, and my perspective is that the more we go down that route, there will be new problems that come up. And so we're just like, um, you know, technological and scientific progress, um, obviously I'm not anti that by any means, but I think we need to just recognise that that system we've kind of reached our peak with it and it just isn't working. Um, for, you know, for many people, um, and we're just constantly in a fight against nature. I think, you know, there's one regenerative farmer in the US, a guy called Gabe Brown, and he he puts it really well to me, like what the difference between regenerative farming and this more monocultural GMO based system is. He used to wake up every morning and think, what am I going to kill today? Now he wakes up and thinks, what am I going to make prosper on my farm today? And I think that that is like, you know, if you just look inside yourself, there's just no question which one is going to feed us better. You know, it's not about what can we kill, it's not about what can we control or over controlling things, it's about recognising we have these systems we can work with, um, and we can all prosper on them. Um, and let's see what we can do to nourish rather than kill, essentially.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. And and with gene editing, just to clarify for the, um, for the listener, it's uh, it's almost like sort of GMO light. It's where you edit very certain parts of the genome to for to to foster certain attributes. But to your explanation, it's still encouraging monoculture because you're not really allowing the, um, the crop to naturally evolve. You're essentially speeding up the process and when you when you essentially disable its ability to evolve, you become reliant on further gene editing to, uh, to make the necessary adaptations, uh, artificially to suit the environment. Am I correct in saying that?

Abby Rose: Well, and not only, yeah, absolutely. And I think on top of that, you know, the other side to that is that, uh, GMO and gene editing both require commercial interest because they're they're expensive, right? Um, and so maybe, maybe it will become a thing and we will be able to produce seeds that have diversity in them inherently naturally. But the way I understand how that system works, um, and certainly any seed produced by a large seed company today, they only produce genetically identical seeds. Right? I don't think they have a technology to produce seeds where every single gene is different. Um, like, for example, in Martin Wolf's fields, he reckons that in a YQ population, within a two-acre field of wheat, there wouldn't be any two, um, seeds that were genetically identical in any way. Wow. So it's really, really a lot of difference. Um, and so here, you know, I guess the point is really is that the commercial seed system, which is what GMO and gene editing is part of, you know, they, I mean, that's another side to it is essentially, as soon as a company goes and gene edits a crop, it owns that crop, or certainly in many cases, they they own the IP of that seed, or the international, intellectual property of that seed. Um, and that, um, you know, and then they want to be able to replicate it, because I don't, I think that's like where the money's made, right? You you come up with this amazing technology, you create, you do all the scientific research, you come up with something that's, wow, we found something that was resistant to this disease or, for example, you can spray glyphosate on it and it won't kill it. Great, let's copy that and sell it to everyone. Um, and and that is monoculture. Like that that is what monoculture is. It's those genetically identical seeds. So, yeah. I mean, I brought up or that's another issue with, um, a lot of the GMO stuff. And I think particularly from a health perspective, it's something that people are becoming more and more concerned about is that a lot of, um, a lot of GMOs in the US, um, are genetically edited so that you can spray herbicide, it often talked about as glyphosate or most people may know it as roundup. That's what it, you know, is in the supermarkets. Um, you can spray that on the plant and the plant won't die. Um, and so what's happened is that, uh, across huge sways of the US, um, for example, wheat fields, um, have been regularly sprayed with this roundup throughout their growing life. Um, and you end up with just like huge amounts of herbicides being used, um, and pesticides, you know, everything being thrown on these crops again and again, um, because you can. Um, and so that's sort of been one of the downsides of GMO is that that is part of like soil degradation, that's part of biodiversity degradation, is that it's all about, it's all about the inputs. Yeah. And then the final point about GMO, I think is key is that again, it comes back to food. And a huge amount of the GM crops in this world, I think it's like well over 50%, um, do not go to feed human beings. Right? So again, we get told this story that we need GM to feed the world, but actually a lot of what GM is is about big business. It's about, um, being able to, uh, you know, sell for energy, biofuels, or it's about being able to feed animals and grow more soy so you can feed more animals. Um, and it just, yeah, it's just like, we're sold a bit of a lie there. Um, and it's really important to go see for yourself and talk to farmers about where food is really grown, not just what calories are produced or how much in inverted commas food is produced.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. I I really agree with the sentiments there and I think, um, I'm certainly of the opinion, um, that we should, we should not play around with nature. Uh, and I think our human sciences pale, you know, in comparison to the incredible beauty and, um, efficiency of nature and its, uh, and and how we've evolved. Um, the counter narrative that I know I would get for someone suggesting that GMO is completely out of the, you know, off the table and we shouldn't encourage it is, um, is privilege. And it's, you know, this argument that, well, you're privileged, you can afford higher, you know, costing food, whether it be organic or biodynamic or regenerative, whatever you want to call it. And you are inadvertently keeping people who are living on the bread line, uh, at bay and it's, um, you know, it's, uh, it's a form of discrimination almost. What do you say to people with counter arguments in that respect? Because I'm sure you've heard that many, many a time.

Abby Rose: Yeah, I mean, I get that argument. Again, I would go back to the fact that actually GM isn't feeding people. So don't give me that argument. Like 70% of the world's food, and I think food is the key, is not being produced by industrial agriculture. It is not being produced by GM based systems. So I understand that you may look out in the fields of Europe and see a lot of crops being grown, but they're not food and let's not pretend they are. Um, on the other side of that, I think, you know, I have also, um, engaged with smaller scale growers in different countries, um, you know, in Uganda, in Malawi, um, and what I'm hearing from those people, um, and in a way, I think this almost links into, um, land justice and racial justice in a way, is that they want to take, they want control of their system, right? Um, they want the the sovereignty over the food that they're growing. Um, and so there's actually a return to growing methods that don't require, you know, if they have a bad year and they don't get a good crop, they want to have growing methods where they're able to plant the seeds from those crops, or, you know, from past years. They don't want to be reliant on having to pay someone else for their seeds, having to pay someone else for their fertilizers. Um, so, you know, there's a balance to be struck, obviously, in all of these things. Um, but I do think that I've never heard, um, a small scale grower say to me, oh, I really wish I could have some of those GM seeds. Just, just doesn't happen. Like, to me, it's actually an arrogance that we think that we need to give these people these GM seeds. Um, it's almost the same arrogance around cheap food in the UK where people say like, oh, well, what about the people, you know, if you go organic or regenerative, um, that they're not going to be able to afford food. And I would turn that around and say, how can we think that it's okay that some people in our country are fed non-nutritious food and that's basically because they can't afford anything else. Like that's not okay to be, to be, it's just, all it is is like, oh, oh great, let's make some cheap food and hide the problem. But it it doesn't honour the human beings. It's not actually nourishing. Um, and so I think, yeah, I mean, you can tell I'm all about like talking to people, hearing what people have to say, um, and I'm open to the fact that, you know, I'm sure there are some places where people are more desperate and it could be the case that actually, um, you know, some crop that was desert or some GM crop that was, um, more suited to desert environments was helpful. Um, but I think that's almost always in the short term. And in the longer term, what we want to be doing is building systems based on diversity, um, that is really nourishing the local people as well as their businesses. Um, and I don't think that's done through, uh, the white people of the West telling everyone else what to do essentially.

Dr Rupy: I I I'm really glad you talked about that so openly because, um, it's certainly something that I come up, I come up against when it comes to food insecurity, the quality of food, why inherently I know we should be producing much better quality food and we shouldn't be using inputs and we should be, you know, moving to a more regenerative, um, method of production. But it's that fear of being called out of being someone who comes from privilege who is not being inclusive. Um, that kind of puts the brakes on. And I think you've definitely inspired me to be a bit more outspoken about that, particularly when you think about the the planet in a wider context. So I I've recently come across, you know, the nine planetary boundaries and how farming methods impact those. Um, and the nine planetary boundaries for for I mean, that'll be another podcast, I'm sure, but I I'll put a link on to what those are. Um, and what we're currently experiencing, which is, uh, colloquially known as the sixth mass extinction event, also known as the anthropocene extinction, whereby we are massively reducing diversity in species across, um, across the world. Um, and so when you put it into those huge contexts, this is a problem that we need to find a solution for. It's not, uh, a question of, well, you know, you might be inadvertently pushing down people who don't come from privilege. Actually, we need to raise everyone up to the same level of standard. And that's the problem we need to solve, not pander to the problem as it is at the moment.

Abby Rose: Agreed. Yeah, and I think, um, yeah, I mean, it is a massive, a massive question. And I think what we're increasingly realising is how interlinked it all is. Um, and how our, um, our day-to-day decisions about the food systems and where we buy our food, um, they are very linked to the nine planetary, the planetary boundaries, um, and this mass extinction and we're we're all in it together. I think that's the other realisation for me is like, privileged or not, we're all in this together. Um, and we better come together if we're going to, if we're going to get through this because, um, it's just not, it's no small feat. Um, but I do think, you know, like, you know, on Farmerama, we are always sharing stories from the ground and from the grassroots of people who are doing things differently already. It's not like this is, um, an idealistic future that isn't a reality. Like people are already living this reality. Um, and they're already, uh, crafting ways of working and living that are nourishing for themselves and their communities and are nourishing for the planet at the same time. Um, and I think that the more we can tune into those visions for the future that are happening now, and, um, see ourselves in them and put ourselves in them and and, um, embrace them, that's really where I think we can have the most impact. Um, sorry, that was kind of a wishy-washy answer to that question, I think. But it's a massive question, I guess is the answer. And I think it's going to take a lot to transform. I think also that is what the serial series speaks to. You know, serial, if you listen, it's six episodes and it's all through the lens of bread. So it's a very, you know, it's topic we can all somewhat identify with. Um, and it shows, it talks about human health, it talks about seed breeding, it talks about farming, uh, it talks about milling, baking, and then also, you know, where are we going next? And all the way through that, you start to see how the system we've come to live in was built and why. And and it by no means is illogical. So it's not meant to discredit that. Um, but it's just also showing how it's sort of come to a place where we're hitting these planetary boundaries and we're having mass extinctions. And maybe there's an alternative.

Dr Rupy: Definitely. And I think a nice way to sort of encompass like, um, encompass everything that we've talked about now is is actually try and, um, figure out what we can do as consumers. I think everyone's kind of fired up now. We know that there's a problem. We know that we need to change our habits. I I wonder if you could leave our listeners with, um, some sort of top tips as to how to buy, how to act as consumers and potentially, you know, some brands or messages to look out for when we are navigating this really complicated food environment.

Abby Rose: Totally. Um, yeah, well, I think obviously the first thing you should do is listen to Farmerama Radio. Um, no, but I mean, in some what serious way there because I think what what it helps you to understand is, um, some of the complexities, um, but also some of the simple ways, uh, you can or people are working with those complexities. Um, and there's a lot of storytelling in there. So, you know, it's not that it's not difficult to understand. Um, but it tells you a lot quite quickly. Um, and then I think the other thing is, certainly, uh, in my life is the more you can move away from buying just from supermarkets, um, and trying to buy more direct from farming networks, the better. Um, so in response to the COVID crisis, um, there was a, uh, website set up. I I helped them get set up called Farms to Feed Us. Um, and that's just, it's a database of all different farms, um, across the country, uh, who are in some way moving in a sustainable direction. Um, they're not all organic or anything like that. Um, but it's all farms that are recognising kind of their place in this whole system. And so, you know, that's an amazing way to start to support this different vision is to just, even if you just say, okay, actually from now on, I'm going to buy, um, my pulses from Hodmedods, for example. Just that one thing, you know, that's starting to engage differently and make a difference. Um, or also there's, um, community supported agriculture schemes. They're called CSAs. Um, and often you can find out if you have one local to you. And often their vegetables, uh, so usually it's a vegetable based box scheme essentially. Um, and it's often a lot cheaper than the supermarket. Um, and it's it's most of the time organic produce, if not certified. Um, and the great thing about that is you you do end up having a relationship with the growers. And then you start to hear some of these kind of concerns and and you're even able to go visit often. Um, and again, that's a nice way to just start to engage with, you know, what is all this? Um, and if you do eat meat, I think it's, it's about like for me, what I've been doing is I do eat less meat, but I then I probably don't spend less on meat on average because then I just buy higher quality meat when I do buy it. Um, and in particular, the pasture for life certification, if you, you know, the the pasture for life farmers are some of the best farmers I know in the UK today. And when you go to their farms, they're these amazingly diverse, beautiful places. Um, so that is a great, you know, it's great to support those farmers and you can feel or be confident that you're part of a regenerative system if you're doing that.

Dr Rupy: Pasture for life certification, do they supply butchers or supermarkets? Or is it or is it something you have to buy direct?

Abby Rose: Um, so they definitely supply butchers. Um, and you can go on their website and you can see all the different places that supply them or they're on Instagram. Um, and, um, I don't think they do supply supermarkets yet. I think there are different like online suppliers who, um, like there's something called the ethical butcher. Um, and they supply meat from a number, you know, specific number or farms that are only regenerative. Um, and many of them are pasture for life certified. Um, trying to think, there's, so there's others like that out there. Um, who are doing things differently, basically.

Dr Rupy: That's great. I mean, I I've got a list of things that I've got to put on the website now to to direct people to sort of get involved in this, uh, more literally. Um, this whole regenerative farming movement. You've definitely inspired me. Um, and I think, you know, what your work is and and the the podcast and everything else that you're doing around it is really putting the respect for growers at the forefront. And I think we need to really, like I said at the start to paraphrase you, recognise that farmers are the caretakers of the earth. Um, it's kind of weird for me because I come from a farming background. Well, not me personally, but my my dad, um, grew up on a on a farm in the middle of Punjab. It was a a completely, um, you know, vegetarian farm, but we kept buffaloes and goats and stuff and we still do and we, you know, it's a lot of subsistence farming, but there are some left over to to, um, produce for for markets. And yeah, it's quite interesting to kind of go full circle, coming to the UK, setting up here, sending his son to medical school and then his son going back to farming and doing a podcast on the subject. It's quite interesting, hey?

Abby Rose: Definitely. I feel, yeah, I I I agree with you on like it's this weird full circle feeling where, uh, you know, most people's ancestors or many, not I shouldn't say most, but many people's ancestors not that long ago were involved in farming in some format. Um, and we all moved away from that for whatever reasons. I think part of it is that farming is very risky. Um, and now we're realising that actually it may be risky, but all of life is risky. You can't you can't shield yourself from risk is the truth. Um, and that actually there's so much more nourishment that is available on farms that we just, you know, um, as the lady who, uh, is founder of Farms to Feed Us, she said, Kathy St. Germans, she said, you know, farms feed us in many ways. And that I think that's what we're all realising is like, oh yeah, you can't just kind of hope that those plants come out and feed us. Um, we need, it's so much more than that to be part of the farming system.

Dr Rupy: That's a an amazing way to end it. I thought, oh, do you have one more point?

Abby Rose: Well, I just, I guess I wanted to say something further about the social justice point. Sure. Um, it was just that I think, you know, if people are interested in that, uh, where I've learned more about that, especially, you know, with the Black Lives Matter movement, um, and in the UK, there's something called Land in our names. Um, I think a really good starting place for that. Well, we did, um, is this lady called Leah Penniman, and she has written a book called Farming While Black. And I think it's, um, it's just a really, she's a very, well, she just shares about, um, you know, liberation on the land, um, as as a black person, you know, what has that meant for her and it's got lots of practical tips on farming as well throughout. And it also kind of shows the history of farming that actually a lot of what we think of as sustainable farming today has its roots in Africa. Um, and so actually these are not, you know, okay, we can, we think that they're relatively new, but these practices, um, are rooted in the ancestry of black people. Um, and it's just a complete reframe on on everything I thought. So I think that's why it's a a good book to start or if you're interested and also I really like she has a strong emphasis on, um, singing and ceremony around the farm, which again, you know, maybe just two years ago, I would have been like, yeah, yeah, whatever, woo woo. Um, hippie, whatever. Um, but the way she puts it, it makes you feel like, God, I am missing a trick here. Um, how have I not realised the kind of the world I'm living in? Um, so, yeah, I think it's a really great book and we also, we do have a Farmerama interview with her as well if you want to just start with the interview before you get the book. Um, it's, the episode's called Farming While Black, so you can listen to it there.

Dr Rupy: I'll put a link on that for the show notes. That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Abby.

Abby Rose: Thank you so much. Um, and, yeah, talk again soon.

Dr Rupy: Definitely.