#287 Fussy Eaters, Weaning & How to Foster Healthy Eating Habits in Children with Charlotte Stirling-Reed

Dr Rupy: Should I delay weaning with known allergens like eggs, nuts or dairy and wait until they're a bit older?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: No.

Dr Rupy: Should I always do baby-led weaning over spoon feeding where possible?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: No.

Dr Rupy: Okay. Is porridge the best thing to start my child on?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: No.

Dr Rupy: Okay, interesting. What is the one thing that parents can do to feel confident and not overwhelmed about feeding their children?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Know that it's up and down and that's perfectly normal.

Dr Rupy: And is it true that what my child eats below the age of two impacts their preferences for food in later life?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Yep.

Dr Rupy: Hi, I'm Dr Rupy. I'm a medical doctor and nutritionist. And when I suffered a heart condition years ago, I was able to reverse it with diet and lifestyle. This opened up my eyes to the world of food as medicine to improve our health. On this podcast, I discuss ways in which you can use nutrition and lifestyle to improve your own wellbeing every day. I speak with expert guests and we lean into the science, but whilst making it as practical and as easy as possible so you can take steps to change your life today. Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast.

Dr Rupy: Feeding children can feel like a minefield, even for someone who has studied nutrition like myself. When should I start weaning? What should I start with? How should I handle the inevitable fussy eater and whether certain foods should be avoided altogether? Well, in this episode with Charlotte Stirling-Reed, we're going to be diving into the science and practicalities of feeding babies, toddlers and beyond to help parents feel more confident and less overwhelmed. And yes, this is going to be very relevant for my current situation right now with a four-month-old. We're going to be exploring weaning from the ground up, covering key questions like, how do you know when your baby is ready for solids? What you should start with in terms of which vegetables? Is baby-led weaning the best approach? And what foods should be avoided in the early years, if any? But we don't just stop at weaning. We tackle common struggles that parents face, including how to encourage kids to eat more than just beige food, something that we've heard from our community is a very common issue. How to manage food refusal, picky eating, the best ways to sneak in more fruit and vegetables into your child's diet, navigating food allergies and safe school lunches with alternatives, and whether to pouch or not to pouch. I think you know what I'm talking about. If you're a parent, guardian or caregiver looking for science-backed advice on feeding kids, this episode is going to be absolutely packed with practical tips and insights from an expert that I truly do trust. Charlotte Stirling-Reed is the baby and child nutritionist that she's known. She's a registered nutritionist, bestselling author and founder of SR Nutrition, and she started her career in the NHS before specialising in maternal, baby and child nutrition. Charlotte's blockbuster Sunday Times bestselling book, How to Win Your Baby, is probably in every kitchen of a family with a toddler that I know of. And her latest book, The Ultimate Weaning and Toddler Cookbook, is definitely going to be a go-to for me and my family. I've already learned so much from the books, as well as obviously getting a chance to sit down with Charlotte as well. I've linked to some of the articles that we mentioned during the podcast, such as probiotics in children, kids eating fish, and kids throwing food, something that I haven't come across personally just yet, but I'm sure I will. And if you're in the mood for kid-friendly recipes or recipes that the whole family would love to eat, that are batchable and freezable, check out our family-friendly section on the Doctor's Kitchen app, where we have hundreds of other recipes as well that you'll absolutely love. You can personalise it to your health goals, you can meal plan, and we're adding new content every single week as well. So definitely go check out the Doctor's Kitchen app if you're interested in family-friendly recipes.

Dr Rupy: Gosh, there is so much to talk about here. I'm so glad you're here, Charlotte. This is great. I thought what we could do to kick off this discussion actually is talk about what weaning actually means because it's a term that gets bandied around. I'm certainly hearing about it a lot. I'm looking into it a lot now that I'm a new new parent. What do we mean by weaning?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: So weaning, it is actually a bit confusing and a lot of parents think that weaning means weaning a baby off of milk, but that is not what it is meant in the sense of what we're talking about. We are talking about weaning is in the introducing babies to solid food, weaning them off of an only milk diet onto a diet that is full of a variety of foods and eventually something similar to what you and I eat as adults.

Dr Rupy: Okay, fine. So that's the that's the definition of weaning because I think the word wean itself is kind of a bit of a misnomer. It's kind of like, you know, you're weaning them off this and onto this and then that's that's the directory, but it's

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Yeah, and a few years ago the government actually really wanted to change that. They wanted to start calling it complementary feeding. But that didn't really fly. People still were like, no, I'm not sure what this is. So, you know, they you do hear a lot, you know, introducing solids, complementary feeding, weaning. But to be honest, the term that most people understand is weaning. So that's what we tend to stick with and use.

Dr Rupy: Okay, fine. So I'll stick with that. So in terms of this concept of baby-led weaning, when did this actually become a thing? Was it has it always been there or is it relatively new?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: In some countries, absolutely, it's been really normal. It's, well, you say relatively new, it's probably, you know, 10, 15 years now of of people in in kind of Western countries and Western communities doing this a little bit more. I may be wrong in that, there may be, it may have been even longer or it may be much more traditional. But you know, really in in the UK, we've talked a lot about kind of introducing solid food and a lot about it being this mashed food and food off of a spoon. So in terms of, you know, what advice we give out, I'd say it is quite recent that we now talk about this idea of baby-led weaning. So just to explain what that means is baby-led weaning is the idea of offering your baby pieces of food rather than food off of a spoon. And the idea is that they help themselves, they eat the food themselves, they they practice self-feeding and they feed themselves more solid pieces of food. They still need to be soft, they still need to be easy textures for babies to manage, but it means that they don't need to be offered off of a spoon and blended or mashed or pureed up. There's a lot of people who are real advocates for baby-led weaning and they're like, no, no, no, this is the way to go. And there's a lot of people who find that quite intimidating and they would rather go in a bit more gently with the purees and the mashes. And I'm a fan of a best of both approach. There's no reason, contrary to what lots of people will tell you, why you can't do a best of both. It's great to get those finger foods in. It's great to practice skills of self-feeding and eating, but actually there's no reason why we can't have some food, more variety, more textures offered off of a spoon at the same time.

Dr Rupy: Okay, fine. And what and the people who sort of espouse the benefits of baby-led winning, of which there are some, what are those benefits that they're sort of overindexing on?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Okay. So with baby-led weaning, there is some research that actually it can help babies to be a bit better at self-regulation. So knowing how much to eat because they're self-feeding. They're not have someone there with a spoon in by their mouth kind of almost like encouraging them to eat. They're they're in charge of their own meal, they're in charge of how much they eat. Also, it's really great for developing, like I say, those skills around picking food up, bringing it to their mouth. So it's hand-eye coordination and also because they're eating more solid pieces of food, in terms of eating, it's actually a skill that babies need to learn. So the oral motor skills can be, you know, worked a little bit more and they can learn a bit more of how to cope with textures and therefore move through that texture development easier. So that's all great, but actually you can do that if you do purees in the right way as well. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. You know, for example, if a parent's sitting there with a spoon trying to kind of feed a baby who doesn't want that food, that's not a good idea. But there's loads of ways you can do that. So, you know, you could offer a baby a loaded spoon and still allow them to self-feed. You can make sure that the textures that you offer on a spoon go up in texture and and offer a variety of lumps and different foods. So it's not black and white. You know, it doesn't have to be one way or the other, but there are benefits to baby-led weaning and I would always recommend that people do introduce finger foods and pieces of food for babies to eat at the same time because that is important for oral motor skills and the development of eating skills.

Dr Rupy: And the subject of sort of appetite regulation and understanding their own sort of cues. Is it similar in that breastfeeding or exclusive breastfeeding seem to have some benefits later on down the line versus formula feeding where you're sort of constantly, or not constantly, but you know, you're encouraging baby to consume food on your schedule?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Well, I would say actually it is really similar in the sense that, you know, yes, with breastfeeding, we recommend breastfeeding on demand. So on demand or responsively, we say. So as and when baby suggests that they need it. However, formula feeding can be done like that too. We just don't really realize it quite often. And actually, if you, you know, sometimes, and I know this a lot from working with parents, they'll see the information on the back of a formula pack and think, oh, my my baby needs to be having that amount. Gosh, that's literally me. So so forget this is exactly it. But this happens all the time. And so parents are like, well, they have to have that amount. So that means that even if they suggest to me they don't want it, I need to try and get this into baby. And it's completely understandable because as parents, we're like, well, this is what we're told to do. I have no idea. This is, you know, my first child. I've not had experience with this before. I'm going to go with that. But actually, it's you can still responsively formula feed a baby by listening to their cues. If they're turning their head away, if they're crying, if they're suggesting they don't want any more, listening to those cues, because those are all appetite cues. And really early on, babies do try and show us those, and it can be really easy to override it, you know. Lots of parents do it. It's really, really common, but we don't we don't have to just kind of responsively breastfeed, responsively, sorry, we we can also be responsive when we're formula feeding too.

Dr Rupy: Gosh, yeah. I mean, it's a whole new language that I'm trying to learn right now. Like cues, different types of cry, you know, signs, like, you know, when he's scratching his head, right, he's pulling at his hair at the moment. He's four months. And when he gets like, you know, irritated, he's like, you know, hands on the head sort of thing. So all these things, like no one tells you this stuff. Even at medical school, we don't get taught this kind of stuff either. So it's really like experience firsthand. This is what I'm I'm sort of picking up on.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Completely. And one thing I would always say as well is that the commute your baby is communicating with you. So everything they do is a communication and it's really hard to interpret that. And that takes time and practice and experience. But I would say it's the same with feeding. You know, it's the same with when we're feeding them at the table. They are communicating messages to you. And they also learn our response. So our response each time needs to kind of be predictable so that they can understand, well, when I cry, this is what my parents do. You know, for example, if they cry and we're still shoving food in their mouth and being like, no, please eat it, eat it, eat it. Their reaction is, well, my cry is pointless. So I may as well just not do that. I've just got to eat the food because my caregiver is telling me, no, no, no, you've got to eat this food. So it almost overrides some of their kind of innate responses. Which I know it sounds really extreme, but it is so hard. You know, I I've I've messed up plenty of times being a parent. I have no idea, but it is that communication and just thinking like, my baby can't tell me, I don't want this right now, but they can communicate it. And sometimes we're like, what's wrong with you? But actually, we just need to take a step back and go, what could they be communicating right now? And believe me, I'm not the parenting guru. I promise you, but I think that that's one thing I've really feel strongly I've learned from being a parent and especially having two very different kids is they are always communicating with us and how we respond to that communication can help them to learn how to carry on that communication.

Dr Rupy: I think that's going to be really reassuring for a lot of parents out there because, you know, with all the training that you've had, the research that you've looked into, and then you're here saying, I still mess up and I've messed up big time in the past because I haven't been responsive to cues. And actually learning the it's not even just the general language of babies, it's actually their individual language. I'm sure the cues are very different from baby to baby, right?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Oh, absolutely. And I I'd say that's the a huge thing, you know, especially with weaning. You know, so often parents come to me, you know, my baby's not taking to weaning or my baby's absolutely guzzling food. And actually, I had two kids completely different experience with weaning. And obviously, this is the field I specialize in. And I think it was the biggest eye opener for me. I was like, wow, it doesn't always go like that. And my my second was quite a challenge in so many ways. So I was like, well, it's not just me that's created a really, really great eater. You know, there it's so much hard work with my second. So I think that we don't and the same with sleep, um, behavior, we don't take their personalities into account. We almost think they need to be like uniform. This is how they should behave. This is how they should sleep. But actually, like we as adults don't have the same patterns. We don't eat the same foods. We don't have the same hunger and fullness. We don't sleep the same amount of time. And why would babies? So I sometimes think we just need to step back and go, they are them. They are communicating. Let's listen. And I kind of regret with my daughter, she was a really tricky when she was born. I had a really tough time with her. And I was constantly trying to fix, you know, what is wrong? What can I do? And I wish now that I'd just gone back and lent into it a bit and been like, do you know what? This is just her. She's she's not that comfortable right now. But actually, rather than me trying to fix it and taking her to appointment and appointment and, you know, just lean into it a bit and just go, this is how it's going to be for a while. I'm going to hold her. I'm going to make sure she's okay. And and like I said, listen to that communication. But easier said than done.

Dr Rupy: Totally, totally. Um, you mentioned textures a little bit earlier for both baby-led and and spoon-fed. What is the sort of direction of travel in terms of when when starting and when, you know, offering a baby their their first spoon of or or pincer grip of food? What what what what's the sort of like starting point and and the eventual end point?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Okay. So when it comes to purees, you can absolutely start with a very thin puree if you want to. You do not need to. You can start with thicker mashes if you want to, but they just need to be quite uniform. So not lots of unexpected lumps in there. And that's very early on. Once your baby gets used to those, it's about gradually building those textures by adding less liquid, by um blending a bit less or mashing a little bit less, maybe cooking a little bit less so it's not quite as soft. And it's really good to do that by stealth. So as soon as your baby seems to be like accepting a texture, move it up a notch. Because the quicker you can move through those textures, it's great. It's really, really good because we know that by around about nine, 10 months of age, if babies haven't been introduced to lumps, it can actually lead to them being a little bit more delayed in terms of their acceptance of lumps and bumps in food. But when it comes to finger food, so you mentioned pincer grip, but actually babies don't have that till they're around about nine months of age. That's when they start to develop that pincer grip. Before then, they have what's called a palmar grasp. So they can grab things in their palm like this, which is why finger foods are recommended to be kind of like the size and shape of an adult finger. So that a baby can grab it like this and self-feed. But it also really importantly needs to, and I love this saying, it needs to squidge between your finger and thumb. That's the official terminology. But you basically need to cook it so that when you give it to baby and it's this nice shape, they can squidge it like this between their finger and thumb. And if you as an adult can do that, it means your baby's mouth, gums, they won't have teeth yet, but that's fine, will be able to flatten the food and then they'll be able to work it to the back of their mouth and swallow it without any without any problems. So that's the initial what you're working for. And you want to move through those textures fairly quickly because babies are developing skills around eating. And if we keep them on really thin textures or the same finger food, they're not going to be learning and developing and moving forward. So as quickly as you kind of can or going with baby and their pace and as soon as they accept it, move through. I always say via stealth. So gradually, gradually, as they get used to it, we're moving through this texture, but it's really important to do that. And it actually is something that a lot of parents are nervous to do. And so they don't. So you do often see babies. I often speak to parents whose babies are still having really thin purees at like 12 months because parents been really nervous to move through. So, you know, build up your confidence before, first aid courses if you need to. Like I say, let baby lead you, stealth and really importantly, eat with baby because they will learn through observation.

Dr Rupy: From observation. Gosh. Just as you were describing that palmar grip, it just reminds me of how he's pulling my wife's hair at the moment. So he's definitely got that right now. In terms of the worries that parents have, I'm imagining it's choking and and the gag reflex. Is that the the main issue that people have when deciding not to progress through the textures at the pace that you're recommending?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Definitely. Huge nerves around gagging and choking. Um, but gagging is really normal. Gagging is actually a safety mechanism. And babies have a gag reflex that's much further forward than ours as adults. As they get more experienced with kind of textures and eating and they develop those oral motor skills, it actually integrates more back here where ours is. So their gag reflex is really far forward, which means that they might gag a lot. Some babies gag loads. And some babies might even vomit. So they'll be gagging so much that they throw up a lot of food. And that's really scary for parents. But it is actually quite normal. And choking is much less normal. It's obviously a lot more rare. But it is where a baby will normally not really be able to make any noise as much. So it's more likely that an airway is going to be blocked. So they're actually kind of they're not really lurching forward and going and trying to get that food out. They're actually kind of a bit still and a bit quite quiet. And you'll notice they do start to go a little bit red in the face because they're trying to get this food out and they can't. It's a very different experience. Both really scary. But my I always recommend parents, if you are at all nervous, do a baby first aid course before you start weaning. It can give you all the confidence and it can save lives because if, you know, which like I say is not normal, but if a baby does start to choke, you know, right, I know what to do. And it genuinely can save lives. But it is rare. And if you are teaching your baby how to eat by moving through these textures, by sitting with them, by exploring spoons and finger foods, they are less likely to choke because they will be developing the skills and the oral motor skills and the self-feeding skills to learn how to cope with food. So avoiding textures is not the answer.

Dr Rupy: Okay, okay. That's that's really useful because I think determining the difference between a gag and a choke is really, really important. And that actually just brings, I did I don't think I generally understood that the gag reflex is a lot more pronounced and more forward in the mouth. And that sort of gives me an understanding as to why when kids have illnesses and they're constantly coughing, that can actually lead to a vomit and a cough, cough, cough, vomit is actually something that we see quite often with kids with bronchitis or, you know, common colds, that kind of thing. So that explains a lot.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Definitely. And it's also probably because they're they're they haven't got quite so stretched out in terms of in the torso. So they've probably got everything's a bit shorter. So it's easier to get it out as well, isn't it? But yeah, definitely if you know, and it's a protective reflex. It's there for a reason to move anything that that your body feels shouldn't be there. But like I say, as they get that experience with textures and eating, it will integrate and they will then have developed skills to be able to manage a lot more. But, you know, still do need to be careful with some foods, but the number of foods you need to be careful with are a lot smaller than the number of foods that you can, you know, give to your baby. It's just about prepping them in the right way. And like I say, following, observing, following your baby's lead and watching how they get on with food and trying to move with that. That's that's what I would say to do.

Dr Rupy: Um, we we jumped from uh to textures before going into timing actually. So timing is a big thing. Um a lot of people are saying, oh, you can wean them at four months, which sounds quite early and it's kind of against the guidance right now. What are the sort of signs that we should be looking for that will tell us, you know, baby could potentially be ready for for weaning?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Okay. So first of all, um, we normally say that a baby's ready at around six months of age. Now, I think that around is so important because as you, you know, know, babies meet milestones at different stages. Not every single baby is going to turn six months and boom, they're ready for solids. Um, but basically, we want to look for three main signs as well as them being around six months. So those three signs are they can sit up, hold their head and neck steady. This means that actually when they go to eat food, they can swallow it safely. So they're, you know, if they're still slopping, leaning to the side, it means that they're not able to hold that up. And actually, if you try to eat sitting like that, it's going to be hard for you. So for a baby who doesn't have the kind of muscles and the stature to do that, so they need to be able to hold their head and neck steady. They should be able to have hand-eye coordination, so they can see food and they can bring it to their mouth themselves. That means they can self-feed, which is what we want to see them be able to do. And then number three, they should be able to, the NHS say they should be able to swallow food, but you don't really know that until you've given them the food. So there's something called a tongue thrust reflex, which can be really helpful. And babies between four and six months, this starts to lessen. And it's basically where if you put your finger on the bottom of their lip, they'll have a reflex reaction, which is where their tongue comes straight out. Now, as they move closer towards six months, this starts to lessen. And what that means is that rather than when you put food on their tongue, them going and just spitting it straight back out, they'll actually start to be able to go, oh, hold on, what's this? And use their tongue to move food to the back of their mouth. So it's a really tricky one that because it's really hard to test. I mean, I tested it with both of mine and it is like a case of, are you doing that as a reflex or are you doing it because my finger's on your mouth? But it's a really good way and um, but those three all together, um, you know, over a kind of period of time, if you're seeing those three signs and they're around six months, pretty good indication that your little one is ready for food.

Dr Rupy: Okay, fine. Um, and then the question that I guess is everyone on everyone's mind is like, what is the best, quote unquote, food to start weaning your baby with?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Okay. My opinion or everyone's. So I love, there's a lot of research, largely done in the UK, which is around introducing veggies as the first food to baby. And actually, although the NHS don't officially say, yes, just start with veggies, they do say to focus on kind of bitter, savory and veggie tastes, not just sweet. So the reason for that is because babies are actually all born with a preference for sweet foods. It's why they love, you know, accept breast milk and accept formula milk and it makes sense. But obviously in our society, a lot of sweet foods aren't necessarily nutritionally beneficial. Um, so, and also babies don't need help to accept those sweet foods. Give them an apple puree and they're going to go, yes, please. I'll have that again because it is super sweet. Um, but what they do need help to accept is veggies. And weaning is all about experiencing, experimenting, learning, teaching babies to eat, but also teaching them to accept a variety. So I'm a massive fan of starting with veggies because it starts off with a totally new taste they're not used to. We know that building familiarity with a variety of flavors, including savory and bitter, can help with the acceptance of those flavors later on. And veggies are notoriously hard to get, you know, toddlers to actually accept and babies to accept. And again, for you, if you imagine if you were given an apple puree as your first ever food, and then three days later someone went, actually, now try broccoli. You're going to be like, no, no, no, no, no. Give me back that sweet stuff. So it's really about building up some familiarity with savory, bitter, umami flavors. And if you think about all the variety in veggies that you can get of flavors, starting off with that just for the first seven to 10 days of weaning can really help their palate to start to accept those flavors. So when you do start to go in there with a variety of other tastes, whether that be, you know, you might start with then eventually offering things like porridge oats or chicken or um, you know, it might be fruits as well. Your baby has already had a nice taste of variety. And I think it's the variety that's really key, but I'm a massive fan of starting off with veggies. Generally, and for years, the consensus has been start off with fruit and veg. Um, but like I say, I like to go in there first with the veggies and then build a variety because iron is important and we need to be getting that into baby's diet too after those first few days. So or, you know, first 10 or so days of weaning. But that's that's that's how I like to recommend.

Dr Rupy: When I when I think about bitter foods, right, I'm thinking about those brassica vegetables. So would you say if someone was to choose certain vegetables, go for the most bitter first? So like radicchio or something.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: I I would not necessarily. I'd say absolutely include that, but I'd say variety is your is your friend. Honestly. And this is the case throughout whole of weaning, variety. If you can get your baby used to a variety early on, they're so much more likely to accept a variety later. So the same with veggies, like if you, you know, it might be broccoli, it might be, you know, kale, it might be spinach, it might be potato, it might be some avocado for something that's a bit more neutral. It doesn't just have to be bitter flavors. And actually, for a baby, it might be quite a lot to have like five days of really bitter flavors and you might end up with them going, no more. I can't take anymore. So variety is great. And especially if, you know, on day one, they had something they didn't really, or, you know, we say didn't like, but it wasn't really, you know, didn't kind of take to them, then the next day if we're trying something different, great. Because they're going to be like, oh, this is new, new texture, you know, like potatoes are a really great one because you can start to build on what you add to potato as well. Um, avocado is a great one because it's literally mash it. It's full of healthy fats, you know, really great for baby brain as well. And it's a funny texture. So all of these things, it's about, I always like to talk about weaning as a journey. It's like explorative, you know. So if you can think of it as exploring and journey, you're not going, you're getting this wrong or right. You know, one day they're going to go, no way, not eating that. And the next day they'll go, all right, I'll try this, you know. And that is fine and normal too. So variety is your friend for sure.

Dr Rupy: Okay. I've got three questions on the back of that. They might be a little bit difficult to answer. So, um, if someone has uh introduced bitter foods into their child's diet early on, does that dictate their preferences a lot later on in life? Do we have any sort of general

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: So there is research that yes, not necessarily just around bitter, but there is research that offering a variety of tastes earlier and starting off with some more of those savory tastes can impact acceptance of those later. Yes. There is research. And even to adulthood? The so the research suggests that actually introducing those in increases acceptance in young children and young children's acceptance increases acceptance in adulthood. So, you know, it's one of those sort of jumps the research, but it is um there is a lot of research done in the UK. There's a lady called Marion Hetherington and she's done a lot of research on this around introducing veggies and tastes and flavor profiles and acceptance later on. And it's fascinating. Um it's not really something that's talked about elsewhere, but like I said, even in the NHS, if you look at their weaning, the weaning website, they will recommend, you know, starting with vegetables or fruits and then they actually state, you know, make sure you get in those savory veggies as well. So it is based there is a lot of research that suggests it's a good idea. However, I always like to add a caveat, it's not the be all and end all. If you didn't do it, it doesn't mean your baby's going to be fussy. If you didn't do it, it doesn't mean your baby's never going to accept those foods. Absolutely not. As you know in the, you know, medical and health, there's so many variables. And this is just one, but it definitely can be helpful.

Dr Rupy: Okay, okay. That's that's really good. Um, why is there general opposition of kids? And maybe I'm I'm making an assumption here, but why is there general opposition of kids to bitter foods in the first place? Is there some evolutionary basis behind this?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Well, we think, so there is actually some amazing research that you'd never get signed off today that was done. I can't even remember the date of the papers now, but where they basically injected fluid into a baby's amniotic fluid. They injected sweet flavor and what this resulted in was babies increasing their um their swallowing rate. They then did the same with bitter. And guess what? Babies reduced their their swallowing rate. So we know that it's an innate preference, the preference for sweet or bitter. But the thing is is that, you know, what we think, what we believe this is is an evolutionary thing that makes, you know, in nature, bitter things may be more likely to be poisonous. So it's we think it's an evolutionary thing where babies are less likely to want to accept that straight away until they've been given experience and had somebody almost give them that acknowledgement that this is safe. So that's why perhaps the familiarity thing helps. Like once you've built some familiarity to that, you accept it. You know it's safe, for example. So we that's why we think it is. It's really fascinating. Um and also sweet foods in nature tend to come along with lots of calories and lots of nutrients. So again, it makes sense for them to really want to accept a strawberry, um, you know, or a raspberry or something like that, which is sweet because actually it does tend to come with fluids, nutrients and some calories in there as well. But obviously, in today's society, we we, you know, we have a lot of sweet foods around us that are unnaturally sweet and don't necessarily come along with all the benefits. So that's why we're saying we really want to help kids to actually enjoy this these other flavors too.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I I agree. And I think in the context of a food environment that is very sweet and ultra processed, trying to get the appreciation for bitter foods early on is something that we should pragmatically be thinking about doing. And I guess the third question is, if I am a parent listening to this, and you know what, I've given them all those sweet foods first because that's what they wanted and I gave them, you know, the apple puree pouches and stuff. And they don't like any vegetables whatsoever. Is it possible and is there a way to try and coax them to get more diversity into their diet?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Definitely. Okay. Definitely. So if you've done that, you're not alone because I'd say that a massive proportion of parents will have done that. A lot of the, you know, the foods on offer are, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with giving apple or pear. I really, really isn't. It is the variety, the message that comes back to. So please don't worry. You haven't done anything wrong. You haven't done anything that the majority of people have done. But there definitely you can make changes. Now, like I said, there's a few things. Familiarity is really, really key. Kids like what they're used to. It's the same with routines and people. They like what they are familiar with. So this is about the challenge of how can we build familiarity with these foods? And it doesn't even have to be in eating it. It might be in seeing it, playing with it, shopping for it, cooking with it, watching you eat it, just literally having it on the table, even if they're not eating it, all of that is building familiarity. So if you are doing that, you're already working towards getting them to eat it. The second thing, don't pressurize them to eat it. Research shows time and time again, the more pressure we put on babies to eat food, the less willing they are to do so. And although as parents, the innate thing, you know, our our thing is like, we need to get you to eat. We know that if you eat, you survive. We know if you eat good food, you're healthy. So for us as parents, it's so within us to go, we have to do this. But actually, we know that pressure to eat up does not work. It has the opposite effect. And I mean, if you talk to adults, people our generation and older, they'll probably say that at school, they've got horror stories from being forced to eat food and it put them off that food for life. So if you think about it from that context, like if you were ever forced to eat a food and now you do not like that food, just try and put yourself into a baby's perspective. They're not going to want to have that food if they're forced to. And the same with toddlers. You know, the more you put the pressure on, the more they're like, uh uh uh. No, no, no, no. So nonchalance. That's that's another tip. Nonchalance. And I promise you, nonchalance at meal time makes such a difference. Just, you know, I always say to parents with the fussy stage kids, the using the phrase, that's okay, you don't have to eat it. can have such a big impact. I'm not saying overnight. And there's obviously other factors at play, but that statement alone can have a massive impact on meal times.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. That's a that's a good one. I'm I'm keeping that one. I'm putting that one in my back pocket. Um, do you think this is a bit of a Western phenomenon? I mean, I haven't obviously looked to the research looking at other countries, like, you know, I'm thinking of traditional diets, Indian culture, Asian culture. Do do they experience fussy eating to the same degree that we do? Or is this something that is unique to the UK, US?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: It's a really good question because actually up until a few weeks ago when I did a really great course on on um fussy eating, I would have said probably not, no. But actually I did a really interesting course that said that actually fussy eating and food refusal is quite a a kind of global problem. Um I I think the research is really mixed. And the reason for that is because the term fussy eating is so hard to define. And what fussy is to you might be completely different to what it is to me or somebody listening here today. So it's very hard to conduct research. There's no official definition for fussy eating. And like I say, you know, for one parent, it might be that their child didn't eat broccoli for a week. And for another family, it might be their child ate three foods for a week, you know. So fussy eating is really, really subjective and it's so hard to study. So I don't know the definite answer around that. I would say that it is I would say that it probably is more common in like Western societies. But I think it you it's really hard to take the variables. So for example, like you mentioned India, in India, there's a lot more um weaning with kind of strong flavors and herbs and spices and dals and lentils. Like that's the norm. So actually maybe you won't see more much, you know, so much fussy eating because actually they've been kind of subject to a lot of variety. And that's, you know, kind of, you know, generalizing massively, but it's very, very hard to figure that out. So I don't know the answer to that, but yeah.

Dr Rupy: In in terms of um herbs and spices actually, if they're ground and they're added to food, um obviously without salt, that's something that we don't recommend for for babies. Can that be part of the the weaning process as well?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Yes, please. I love it. Yes, definitely. So I would go in there slowly with the herbs and spices just because um it's really good to get them used to them, but again, it's that stealth. So gradually, a little bit here and there. You don't want to put baby off of a food like, you know, with with having it too much. So, but yeah, definitely, once you've started to introduce those foods, get those flavors in, you know, it's again, it's all more variety, it's all more nutrition, it's more flavor, it's more experience for them. And you know, the like I said, the more you get in early, the more you're going they're going to accept those flavors. So if your little one's grown up and things like cumin and cinnamon and nutmeg are totally normal in their diet, that's going to be stuff that they will accept when you're offering meals to them later on because it becomes the norm. Um and you I'm not saying they won't go through phases where they refuse a lot of those foods. That's absolutely that's going to happen for most of us. But yeah, get those in early. It's brilliant. So and I love that like cooking with flavor. If you cook with those foods, make them for your baby because the more you can get them having your family meals early on, the better. The easier your life will be, the more that they will accept. You know, I always love to say this thing if if your baby's only been exposed to let's say 20 foods by the time they're one, when they then go through that fussy phase, they're going to reject, let's say five, 10 foods. So they're going to end up with quite a limited diet. If your baby's been exposed to like 100 foods by the time they're one, then they're going to maybe go through a fussy phase where they start to reject maybe like 10, 20 foods, but they're still going to have a really varied diet. So the variety is, yeah, get it in there. And those herbs and spices are great too.

Dr Rupy: Okay, this is great because uh I have like an anxious parent sort of uh um person on my shoulder that's speaking to me. It's basically me. So you mentioned two things there. When uh the toddlers go through their fussy or the child goes through the fussy phase. And uh the number of foods that they should be exposed to by age one. Do we have any sort of general numbers on those two?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: So the the the second that you said there about the the foods for one, there is a whole, I think it's like an American thing where people recommend doing 100 foods before one. But I I'm not really an advocate for that because I feel like it puts more pressure on parents. And also this idea of like 100 foods when you're like, oh my god, my baby already eat three foods. It's quite a lot to to have to do. So for me, like I say, I don't really I wouldn't put a number on it. I'd say variety and like you, you know, how you cook, try and cook in the way that you like to cook at home and get your baby used to the foods that you have, the ingredients that you use because that's going to have the best knock-on effect of getting them to be accepting your meals. So, you know, use that. Yeah, sure, try more variety, maybe spice up your own foods a little bit more, but do use what's norm for you and your family. Um, what was the what was the first question?

Dr Rupy: The first one was when they go through a sort of fussy like, no, not having that.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: So again, hugely variable. The research suggests that it kind of peaks between 18 months and three years of age. That's when we tend to see it peaking. But there's a few reasons for that. So for example, first of all, babies tend to grow very fast in the first year of life and that growth rate starts to decline after one year of age. And with that, sometimes we see appetites dropping. This was absolutely classic happened with my son. At 18 months, I was like, wow, he's massively reduced his portion sizes. Really normal. The second thing is something called neophobia, which is basically a fear of new food or a fear of unfamiliar foods often kicks in. And this is when they start to become more independent, when they start to move around a little bit more. So it makes sense for them to be a little bit more wary about what they're eating. It doesn't mean there's nothing we can do. It means that we maybe need to help them realize, yeah, this food is safe. This food is okay by role modeling, by showing them, by offering it, by building familiarity, all those things I've already said. And the third thing is they're seeking independence. You'll find at those toddler ages, you know, they want to put their own clothes on. They don't want their hair how you've done it. They don't want, you know, to brush their teeth. It it's so it's so fun. You you can't wait till you get there. But they start to become little independent things. And you know what they can sometimes control what they put in their mouth. So you do start to see roughly around this age, it can happen earlier, it can happen later. It's really normal. Um loads that you can do to kind of reduce it, but the one thing I would say to all parents is if it happens, please don't worry. It's so normal. And it is to be expected. And if you can expect it coming, then hopefully that just automatically takes some of the pressure off.

Dr Rupy: And is there any sort of evolutionary explanation as to why they might experience, you know, this sudden urge to become independent as a little 18 month or 36 month old? It sounds it seems like nonsensical for evolution to have sort of encouraged kids of that age to become, you know, walk out of camp and like go go hunting on their own.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Well, the neophobia thing makes sense because they're moving, they are being more independent in terms of they're moving around on their own. So it's often when they start to crawl and and walk. Um and that means there is more independent. And obviously, you know, evolutionary, we probably grew up more in communities. So rather than it being two parents, two caregivers who are like in charge of this one child, it would have been a community. So everybody would have been looking after your kids. So I guess from that point of view, it probably makes sense for them to be a little bit more wary and be a little bit more independent. Um and in terms of neophobia, that's what we think it is. Like when they move around, when they become independent, they're going to start to go, I'm not sure about that. Let me just wait to see somebody else eat it first, kind of thing. Um so that's why that and the independence thing, I guess it's similar. You know, like I say, it's that community, that yeah, that goodness knows, but it's exhausting.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. I mean, I guess like if I'm just like um uh hypothesizing, maybe you need that sort of like brain switch to try and encourage you to start walking for the first time. Like you're independent, mate. You can start like getting off on onto your own two feet and walking around. So maybe there's there's like the sort of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. pop uh reason for why that's happening.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Well, I think with animals, sometimes animals give birth and it's like day one, walking. And you're like, what have we done so wrong? Why does it take us 18 months? It's so odd, isn't it? That we have to like, you know, unless a child is being taken care of 24/7, they wouldn't survive in the wild. And so, yeah, it's a real sort of unique scenario that I can't see, you know, matched anywhere else in nature where we have to look after them for so long.

Dr Rupy: I find it baffling. Honestly, when you see like birthing videos of animals and you're like, I just that giraffe.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Totally amazing.

Dr Rupy: Okay, so we had loads of questions from so many parents. And maybe I should start off with that in terms of the anxiety around parenting. I mean, me and my wife, we went to baby classes and the WhatsApp group is just like off with loads of questions about obviously the pregnancy experience and the birthing experience and then afterwards and you're left with this baby and you're like, what do I do? So I I can understand the anxiety for that, but it it kind of seems never ending. And there is um especially what we were talking about before we started recording, a lot of anxiety but a lot of judgment from a lot of parents and I'm sure, you know, this is something you have to deal with fairly often.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Yeah, I think it's, oh, it's so hard. I think for my experience, parenting is really hard. I think that, you know, you're constantly questioning yourself and not sure if you're doing things right. And I think, you know, especially as women, you know, I do feel like quite often we're raised to self-doubt and to question ourselves a little bit and to maybe not quite have the confidence in our own convictions. So I think that is part of it. We often like raising kids, but there's no manual. You know, nobody actually knows exactly how to do it. And also, you know, research changes. So like how we, you know, parent kids now, you know, gentle parenting and it's so different to probably how we were raised and the generation before us was raised. So it's ever evolving, it's ever changing. You're always self-doubting, you never know. And also, I guess it's like the most precious thing in your whole entire life. So you kind of want to do it right. And I feel like with parenting, there actually isn't really a right way. Um also thrown into the mix that all kids are completely different. You know, all kids are completely different. They have their own personality. So when you've got your guideline of this is how you should wean or this is how you should parent and then you've got a child who just does not conform to that, you're going, well, I'm trying to do it all right, but I'm still failing. And we tend to internalize and blame ourselves. And I think that the judgment around parenting often comes from that feeling of like, maybe I feel like I'm not getting it right. So I'm going to maybe judge others for how they're doing it. And it might even be passed down, you know, if if my mom felt like you shouldn't, you know, feed a child in a certain way or talk to a child in a certain way, then that's going to be how I believe. So when I see others doing it, I'm going to maybe frown against that. So I guess it's like a kind of pack culture slightly as well. Oh, it's so hard. I mean, I could be here all day talking this alone because I feel like parenting is really challenging and I feel like we punish ourselves and I feel like the judgment and also you open yourself up to like online. And I think the online community has made it harder because rather than it being a smaller community who's your best friends, your family, you know, your grandparents, you're opening yourself up to the judgment of people who do not live in the same way as you. So that kind of judgment is rife. And I mean, online can be really brutal anyway. So I think with parenting it's even more.

Dr Rupy: It always seems like there's never the right way. And that's I mean, it's it's true. There isn't a right way. There is the way that you're doing with your own individual, with your own parent, with sorry, with your own child and, you know, if you have a partner or not. So it's the the the ideas that are bandied around online are just like so polar opposite sometimes to the way I think as well. And I think it's about blocking out the noise. And whilst online communities can be useful, I mean, we we've Google a lot of things. We've read a lot of forums. They can be really, really useful. But then I think there you need to know where the line is to be drawn. And sometimes that can be very difficult. I mean, like my wife is very um she's uh she's very diligent. And sometimes I think that is to our detriment because if you're reading milestones and you are a diligent individual, if you're not hitting those milestones, it's kind of like a worry sets in and panic and then you start, you know, Googling all different sorts of things. What's wrong? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I can see where it it kind of spirals. So that's why I think it's it's really nice for someone in your position to not only share your personal experience with kids, but also just relax a lot of anxiety that's out there and say, there are guides and there are general sort of, you know, errors, but like there is a lot of difference as well.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: And I'm so I'm so believe that. I think even on my book, you know, I've got a 30-day plan in my book that some parents love because they're like, you've taken the thought out of it. Day one, day two, day three, I know what to do. Um and that's great. But you know what, if that isn't for you, that's okay too. You don't have to follow this. You don't have to follow government guidelines. You know, you you can absolutely pick the bits that work for you and your family because nobody knows your context. So I think that is so important. Um and I I'm a massive believer in like you parenting the way that you want to parent. Obviously, there are things you need to do to try and keep them safe and you can do certain things to keep them healthy, but you know, you have to pick your battles as well, don't you? So you've got there's so many things kind of flying at you as a parent and I just feel like you've got to do, you know, the survival. What can you do to survive and try and raise this children healthy without driving yourself mad, basically.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, definitely blocking out the judgment of others because like I say, they don't understand your context quite often. And I I find I think online is so hard for that as a parent and I've really struggled with it over the years and I've worked with other people who have really found it quite hard, the the judgment. But like I say, they they don't know you or your child. So they they can't possibly comment.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. And from from one sort of controversial area to another, um we have mentioned it and I want to come back to it and it's pouches. Oh yes. So pouches, probably the the number one thing that we were asked about in terms of whether they should have pouches, are they good for us? Are they ultra processed? Are they things that we, you know, can rely on? Yeah. What what is your two cents on pouches?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: How long have we got? I think we should I think we should spend as long as you like about pouches because I'm not there yet, but you know, I'm going to be there soon.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: So I think just with all the rest of, you know, the advice that I like to give, I think there's like an ideal and there's a reality. And you know, there is somewhere kind of in the middle of that maybe that is is where we need to focus. So pouches are there, they're not going anywhere. They are they can be very helpful and useful and convenient for families without a shadow of a doubt, you know. Like I say, you know, we're living in a quite a tough world where there's a lot of expectation, especially on, you know, parents and and working mothers to kind of do and be it all. And I think pouches can be a really great, helpful, convenient solution. However, it's really important not to overly rely on them. And I've seen this time and time again. There are a number of reasons why pouches aren't brilliant. Um for example, quite often the the textures of them, they have to fit a certain texture in order for them to come out the spout. So you can you're always going to be limited in what the texture your child can get from a pouch. They also often are unnecessarily sweet because they are often add sweetness because then babies are more likely to accept it, as we've already heard. So they're more likely to be consumed, so they're more likely to be bought again. Okay? So they often are overly sweet. They also don't taste like your home-cooked food. And if you want your child to eat your home-cooked food, as we've talked about this whole time, familiarity. And if they get familiar with pouches and then you go, oh, well, here's my home-cooked meal, which has got cumin and lentils, they're going to be like, no, no way. That's very hard to get them to then accept it. Um and also, food is so much more than like what could be kind of sucked out of a pouch. And I think the way that we feed the pouches is something that I do have a bit of an issue with. Food is, like I've already talked about, you know, seeing it, watching others eat it. If a baby is kind of sucking on a pouch, they're not seeing food, they're not smelling food, they're not visually experiencing any of that meal. It's going straight in, straight to the back of the throat and being really easily swallowed. There's not even any eating skill involved in it. So actually eating is about learning, it's about learning how to eat, it's about learning to accept variety and it's like I said about that familiarization with food. And actually pouches don't allow you to do that. Um so for all of those reasons, I'm not the biggest fan, but like I say, I am also a realist and I know how hard it is for parents. And I think yes, use them. Use them when you need them. Use them when you're like, you've had the busiest day and I cannot get home and spend 20 minutes, 30 minutes cooking a meal for my baby. So do use them, tap into them. Like if you go on holiday and you're worried about what's going to be there, take some pouches with you. But try and find more savory ones. Try and find ones and have a look at the back of the pack. And if it says on the front, spaghetti bolognese, you wouldn't expect there to be apple in it. So have a little ruthless look at the pouches and choose ones that are more savory. Try and choose ones that are for slightly older kids, especially if your little one is used to textures because they're going to have a bit more texture to them. Also, you can use them in other ways, like use them, spread them on toast, you know, have finger foods to dip in them so that you're still helping your baby to learn to eat. And the other thing is decant, decant into a bowl and offer them with a spoon so that your baby isn't sucking them through the pouch. And like I say, try not to make it your every single day because that's when you are likely to get your little one not accepting your family meals. And weaning is about moving your baby onto your family meals. And your family meals are not pouches. So I really don't want to shame. I don't want any parents who use pouches to feel bad because you know, one of the things I think is that parents really, you know, they see other people using them, they see them available at the supermarket and they're like, this must be what is best for my baby because it's almost that's what is kind of suggested. Um but it it isn't the it isn't, you know, there's a lot more you can do, but please do not feel shamed for it because it's fine. They are fine to use. They are all baby grade. They use good ingredients to make sure that they're um, you know, the kind of best for your baby. Um but I would say that, you know, it is definitely better not to overly rely on them for so many reasons. So that's my take on it. But please, please, please, do not feel bad if you're using them. They are fine to use.

Dr Rupy: I think that's a really, really good, in-depth explanation. And I kind of see, I I definitely see your point about habituating food coming from a packet because these babies are like sponges. And if they normalize food coming from a plastic, sweet and like brightly colored packet, then, you know, it could habituate them towards those kind of foods, which tend to be ultra processed in the future. So, um

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Can I just add there, it's the same with, I posted recently about babies not needing snacks and some people were livid, livid about babies under one not needing snacks. And I did have a lot of people saying, my baby loves her baby crisps and you are never stopping me giving them. But, you know, babies at one, they don't need crisps. And even if they are baby crisps, exactly what you say, what we're doing is we are showing very young children that this is food. So we are literally habituating those eating patterns of having your bag, your hand in a bag of crisps and kind of crunching on that um food that is actually doesn't really have any nutrients in it, you know, and it's takes you not very long to kind of eat a really large amount of calories and there's not really a lot of energy and nutrients alongside that. And that is just habituating like crisps, making it the norm. You know, I've talked so much about familiarity. If your baby's seven months old and what they're familiar with is eating from a packet and these kind of crisps that just melt in your mouth and don't really take much biting and chewing, they're going to want crisps when they're older, you know, and we know that eating loads of those kind of foods isn't going to be good for long-term health. So again, yeah, I really hate, I I don't want to be like the shamer and these are fine every now and then and in context, you know, pop them on a plate with some other finger foods, fine. But, you know, all the time constantly having these kind of baby crisps that are created as if they're like great food for your baby. Yeah, I'm not I'm not the biggest fan. I'm sorry. I had to add that.

Dr Rupy: No, no, this is it's super important because I think we want to be responsibly informing people. I think the the the wrong thing to do would be to fear creating anxiety or judgment and not addressing what is potentially a real big issue further down the line for these kids. And I think exactly the way you've done it in like a really sort of pragmatic explanation as to why they're bad, but if you feel like you have to rely on them in certain circumstances, don't feel bad. It's just part of the modern environment that we we we live in. Um and I I love the the sort of the the tips that you gave around some of these pouches and products because they're definitely, I think, touted as healthy. And the way I look at them in the I I haven't bought any yet, but the way I look at them in the in the supermarket, they look like something from the health food aisle because of the coloring and all that kind of stuff and it's like one ingredient, whatever. Um but there are a few tips that you suggested to look out for if you are going to choose some pouches to have when you're in a pinch, pouch when you're in a pinch. You can have that one. In a pinch, you can have a pouch. Um what are the thing, what are the ingredients that you would say, you know, maybe less of those and more of those? And then um perhaps these crisps as well. Some of them are like vegetable crisps. Are they just as bad as the potato crisps? Are they maybe we could talk about that.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Oh god. Okay, so can of worms. Um so first of all, yeah, with the baby pouches, I think it's just really being a bit savvy about looking at the ingredients them. And like I say, variety is key. And there are some companies that do a really good job at like trying to get variety in there. You might have some with quinoa and with those herbs and spices that we talked about. Um and also ingredients that you would expect. So for example, I've already used the example, but if you had spaghetti bolognese and you turn it over, are those ingredients you would expect to be in the spaghetti bolognese? So I definitely say be a bit ruthless with the package. Don't take it at face value, turn it over, have a look on the back. Are they things that you would put in a spaghetti bolognese? Just standard. Are they experimenting a little bit more with what they're putting in? So it's not just your apples and your pears and your spag bowl. Are you know, are there packages which have got herbs and spices and, you know, because that's great and you're adding diversity to your child's diet and other flavors as well. And that can be a great complement to the the meal, the variety that your child's having at your house. You know, it's something new, it's something something varied. So definitely look at those. And then like I say, think about the textures. And if you can, think about the textures that if your little one has moved through, you know, smooth purees and onto other things and then you're kind of offering them like an apple pouch or a puree that's really smooth, then they're not really moving forward with their textures which you want. But again, if it's every now and then, it's never really going to be a problem. And with the baby crisps, um, do you know, like, yes, there are some that are like based on vegetables and to parents this and the same with fruits. There's loads of like chewy fruit things that are like 100% fruit. But, you know, it's not so much about the the kind of the ingredients, it's more about like I said, that kind of habit of what we're teaching is that these snacks and these chewy things, not necessarily great for teeth, um, not very many nutrients, you know, also snacks, in my opinion, should be mini meals. So when children are one plus, snacks are fine. They can really help complement a toddler's diet who's growing and who needs a bit extra. Um, but those snacks should be mini meals. You know, they should be balanced. We want to be looking at different food groups and trying to include those in snacks because every, you know, children have really small tummies. And if we fill them up on things that don't contain much in the way of nutrients that aren't balanced, it means that they might not be getting all of the variety, the nutrients that they need every day. So when we are offering snacks, we do want them to be tapping into energy, nutrients, fiber, you know, giving them all those things that we know they need to have. So that is my problem with the snacks is that they aren't balanced. They often, and often, you know, you give a baby packet, it might say like this contains five portions. But you know, a lot of babies will eat the entire thing and not much in the way of fiber or, you know, but I like in my, in one of my books, I think it's my second book, my toddler book, I've I've said in there about snacks. I did a whole lot on snacks and I've said, if you're going to offer the baby crisps, it's fine, but pair it with some, you know, some uh red pepper fingers, which are have vitamin C and fiber and water for hydration. And pair it with some sticks of toast so that you've got some again, more fiber, carbohydrates, whole grains. So, you know, it's about the context in which they're given and also the amount and the variety. And if we're relying on them every single day as a snack for a baby or toddler, it isn't going to be ideal.

Dr Rupy: I feel like I'm really really talking negatively and making parents anxious, but I do feel, I do feel like they're not ideal as an everyday kind of food items for babies and toddlers.

Dr Rupy: No, but this is the beauty of long form podcasting, which is what I was talking about before we started recording because we can actually have a new conversation. So rather than it being a sound bite or like a short caption where you can't reference, where you can't sort of like further explain the context in which we're saying these aren't great for you. Um, you know, the translation gets lost and then that's where you get the worry. So hopefully people will listen to the entire podcast instead of just clips. Uh and they will have a much better appreciation for your opinion, but also what the research says as well. Because, you know, I think the same is can be said of adult nutrition. You know, you can have like vegetable crisps. Yes, they're one ingredient and they just have a bit of oil, maybe some salt on. But because you've disrupted that food matrix so much, you're going to be quicker absorbing those nutrients as well. And the ways to mitigate that very similar to to adult nutrition is to pair it with more complex foods. So you you slow the digestion, you get more nutrients, you get more fiber, which has benefits all around. So absolutely. Yeah.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Exactly that. And that's the thing. I think I always like talking about these things, but you know, like I say, the reality is many parents will give those and many parents will rely on some pouches. So how can we just make that slightly easier? You know, how can we make the choice a little bit better? It's not about saying don't do it because that's not reality. They're not going away. Um but, you know, how can we do it, but just make it a little bit better.

Dr Rupy: It's like me saying you shouldn't have meal deals ever. And like, look, I I have I have to have something when I'm on the road, when I'm on a train. And so it's about giving strategies to people when they're out and about and actually options when this is what they have to rely on. And not everyone can. I mean, like I'm coming from someone who has a dog. I've got a cavapoo who's four years old and unfortunately she's got IBD. So we have to cook her food from scratch every two weeks. And I literally cook a vat of cod and uh brown rice. We had it done by a doggy nutritionist. They exist. I didn't even know that they exist. It's literally a handful of doggy nutritionists about in the UK, very niche. Um but yeah, we it's been like her menu has been made and we have to cook it every two weeks and then we we puree it and then we batch it and then we literally open one every single day. So I'm probably going to be pureeing a lot of my kids' foods anyway because it's something that I'm used to. Don't mix them up. I won't mix them up. No, no. Although her diet is pretty much human grade. Oh my god, I love the dedication. That's so cute. Yeah, yeah. Well, she literally can't eat anything else, the poor thing, because IBD in in dogs is um uh single protein allergies. So, so anyway, yeah, so I'm used to pureeing. So I'm I'm probably going to be the exception to the rule, but if I am going to be relying on pouches every now and then, these are the sort of strategies I'm going to have. I think it's really important to give folks that um that that choice as well. Um onto supplements actually. So let's say I have a uh omnivore diet and I'm I'm giving that to my child, but they're fussy and they don't like their food and you know, I'm doing all the things, I'm adding diversity, but I'm worried that they are under consuming. They might not be losing weight, um but you know, they're under consuming. Should I therefore supplement with a multivitamin to to make sure that I'm checking off calcium and B12 other than the uh vitamins that are generally recommended as healthy start vitamins?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Yeah, so healthy start, the government recommend vitamin D as standard. So from a breastfed baby from birth should be having vitamin D. Um and from when a baby has less than 500 mils of formula milk, they should be having vitamin D. The government in the UK also recommend A and C. So that's from six months or from when a baby is having less than 500 mils of formula, they should be having those three. Now, the the A and the C are a little bit kind of, you know, if your child does eat quite a good varied diet, they're likely to be getting enough. Um there's certain pockets of, you know, of the UK that don't get enough A and C. So that's why that recommendation is there. Um so A, C and D recommended. Um when it comes to a multivitamin, controversial again. Um I personally think children's appetites are really up and down. They are very resilient. So they will, you know, they're they're quite good at absorbing what they need and it is quite rare for fussy children to not grow properly and not get enough nutrition. Um it is quite rare and if that is the case, I would definitely be saying you need to go and see a specialist if you are worried, tired, lethargic, not, you know, producing enough dirty nappies, um not not got enough energy, not growing properly. I would definitely say those are flags to go and see somebody about it. Um but generally, if your little one is kind of up and down um with food, they should be okay. But I would say if you've got things like maybe multiple allergies or they are very fussy and it's been going on for a long time or they are vegetarian and vegan or, you know, they're restricted in their diet in some other ways, a multivitamin can be helpful. The only trouble is there's not really that many great ones available. So, you know, and they're they're bamboozled parents, you know, there's so many. You go down the aisle and you're like, wow, which one of these for which age? And a lot of them are gummies and a lot of them are pills that actually babies and toddlers can't swallow. So it's really hard. Um but, you know, there are some out there that are a bit better studied and that we know might have some beneficial impact. It's likely to be hugely individual. Um but they are safe. So they are fine if you want to give them to your baby or toddler. And to be fair, I do give my kids probiotics, um not regularly, you know, but but I do give them to them.

Dr Rupy: Any particular strains that you're aware of that might have a bit more evidence?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Not off the top of my head. In the blog, all the strains are in there because I couldn't even tell you the names, you know.

Dr Rupy: We'll link to that blog for sure because that's definitely something that I'm getting asked about a lot. Um I mean, for adults, I think the majority of people would not benefit from a probiotic. Um I think you'd you'd better spend your money on getting a diversity of food in your diet, plant focused and getting probiotic rich foods actually, sauerkraut, kimchi, ferments, that kind of thing. And um maybe that's something that kids might benefit from as well. I always remember this this uh this blog from um I think it was the New York Times. It's called what kids eat around the world. And I don't know if you ever saw it. It came out a few years ago. And it was these kids with like their breakfast surrounding them. They're lying on the floor and they've they've done like a top-down shot and they've got their breakfast foods around them. And it's just so different from like the Brazilian kids, the Indian kids, the Chinese kids. And it's just like so varied. And I remember the Korean child and they had like kimchi in the morning. I was like, that's something that I have as an adult.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: I love it. No, really good. It's really great to do that as well. Often parents ask about giving that kind of stuff to babies and toddlers. And I'm like, you know, you might want to go in a bit gradually, but yeah, because like I say, you know, different cultures, that is the norm. I actually remember going on, I think I had to I did like an ITV news piece about that. I can't it was a long time ago now. It wasn't a couple of years ago. It was quite a long time, but it was beautiful, wasn't it? It was such a great article and it was phenomenal. Such an eye opener as well. You know, and I think sometimes as parents, we need to go, you know, we're kind of stuck in this bubble of like, oh, nervous about these foods. But when you look at other people and other cultures and other countries, there's such a wide variety going on. And we don't need to necessarily worry about the kind of tiny little minutia of of the things that we worry about. Um because like I think I said to you at the start of this, quite often parents come to me saying, what do I do about breakfast if I'm just giving vegetables? And I'm like, no, you can give the vegetables. It's fine. Um but yeah, I I think it's just it's such a it was a wonderful, that really was because it was an eye opener to like just do you.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I love veggies for breakfast. I'm a big savory breakfast fan. Um okay, I've got some quick fire questions to go through. So, uh what are some healthy nut-free alternatives for schools? Because obviously kids are not allowed to have nuts anymore. And even though nuts are super nutritious and all the rest of it, they have to be nut-free for for reasons that we've just discussed. So what what are your sort of go-to nut-free?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Do you can I just ask throw it around? Do you mean like snacks or like or or

Dr Rupy: Snacks. Yeah, let's go for snacks.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: God, that's really hard. It actually is a real challenge because I think like nuts are such a staple in so many families. And I totally get why it's not done. But I think a lot of the things you make, you can make without nut butter. So it might be using like maybe a bit of coconut oil or maybe using butter or you can actually buy a product. I don't I've not used it myself called no nuts butter, which is kind of a nut butter but without the nuts in it as well. So anything like that. Um I don't I don't actually know. I haven't I keep meaning to get it and try it out, but I haven't done yet. Um and I think yeah, just trying to go for um you know, your your cheeses and um I mean, there there is kind of part of there is a call to like, you know, there's so many different allergens that kids can have and they can be just as severe as nuts. So it is kind of a bit strange to just ban nuts and not ban like dairy or eggs, which actually can be just as severe in some in some um in some families. But yeah, I totally get why and um I'm stumped. It's a hard one.

Dr Rupy: I always get I always get stuck as well whenever I'm asked about a nut-free alternative. And my answer is hummus without the tahini.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Yeah, yeah. It's like you've got to make it for yourself because most of them have tahini in. Or like you can do, you know, and again, it does have some added salt, but like cream cheese, yogurt as a dip is also a really good thing if you're thinking about things from that front. And also, I think I struggle with like um what goes into sandwiches. And but like I I do actually love Marmite and again, it's very salty, but it does contain quite a lot of nutrients and you only need a really thin spread. So something like Marmite, um like I say, hummus, but yeah, you've got to make it yourself.

Dr Rupy: My wife's Australian, so we're we're a Vegemite household, unfortunately. I'm more Marmite, but yeah, we have to have Vegemite. Um if my kids are refusing uh tomatoes or a vegetable or whatever and I want to get it into the diet, how long do I have to wait until I try and reintroduce it?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Okay, so first of all, number one, don't sweat it. Number two, um keep trying with it, but without pressure. So if you take that food away, they're not going to be familiar with it. So when you try and add it again, two, you know, two months later, it's going to be a hard no. Don't take it away, but don't force it. Eat it yourself. Those would be my tips.

Dr Rupy: Okay, great. Um oily fish and mercury containing fish or high mercury containing fish. What is the general advice on that? Should I be avoiding fish altogether?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Not avoid altogether, but there are some limitations on fish. Um I've got a really detailed blog which I deep dived the whole mercury thing. It is different in America. I know there are different rules. I know there are different concerns. But again, what it comes back to is variety. Vary your fish. Don't always choose the same one. Ideally choose oily and just have that kind of once a week. Um and and kind of stick to that. But like I say, variety, small amounts, um and you don't need to worry so much about it. That that's what I would largely say. Remember when they if they're going to nursery or school, they'll often be offered a portion of fish there as well. Um so you don't need to necessarily offer it in a huge amount, but that's what I would say. Stick with oily, stick with a variety. Don't just go with the kind of same ones. Um and um just stick to kind of one portion of oily a week, I would say.

Dr Rupy: And do you go for the smallest oily possible or like any of them like salmon as well as um like herring or anchovy?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: I think I again, variety. Variety is always the answer because obviously there are like concerns over things like, you know, the amount in salmon, the amount in tuna. So variety, if you're if you're not always offering the same one, if it's not always tuna or always salmon and you're trying to go for a variety, that's better. Um but obviously oily fish is a hard thing to get kids to eat. So try and start that in small amounts when they're young because again, you want to build that familiarity. Um it is it is a really good food. And obviously you can tap into other things like tofu and olive oil and ground nuts and seeds for a little bit of that um as well if they're not getting it from oily fish.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. I'm going to link to that article as well. Gosh, there's so many blog articles I need to link to. Um plastics in kids uh like plates and stuff like that. Should I be worried?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: I would say probably not, but don't I wouldn't heat up any plastic plates. I'm always a real massive like whenever I'm like heating food for kids, I would never heat it up with the plastics on. Um I don't think so necessarily. I think again, I know I say this all the time, it's really boring, but variety. You know, people always ask about like what plates to use and I think change it up so you're not always having the same one. You know, I I remember back in the day when like the silicon plates were really popular and a lot of parents were saying it's flavoring the food. So a lot of parents kind of stopped offering a lot of silicon plates, but you know, again, it's variety, not giving the same. The bamboo ones are great as well. I I use those loads with my kids, but you can't dishwasher them. So for a lot of parents, they're like, I don't want those. But um but yeah, I think variety.

Dr Rupy: We've got gifted a whole bunch of those. I didn't realize I can't put those in the dishwasher.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Oh, do you? You can't put those in the dishwasher. They will ruin. That's happened multiple times. But, you know, they only need a quick sponge wash and, you know, dry and they they're really useful, but I would say, yeah, go go for those if you can.

Dr Rupy: Okay, cool. And a fun one to end off with. Uh how do you manage not just a fussy eater, but uh an eater that's throwing their food around?

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Yeah. So common. So food throwing didn't happen with my son because he just loved it. He just sat there and was like, I'm not wasting any of this. My daughter, whoa, she threw food. So the way you can handle this is persistence, react the same way every time. So that's not what we do with food. Pick it up, pop it on their plate, or if you don't want it, just pop it to the side here. Every single time react the same way. Don't draw more attention to it than that. Role model what you do with food and try not to draw more attention. The more that you say, hey, don't do that, you know, and and why do you keep throwing this on the floor? The more they're going to do it. And also remember with babies, it's also part of their learning. They're going, oh, what's this? Oh, yeah, gravity. Oh, there's my food. You know, they're not necessarily they're doing it as part of learning. So just try and react the same way. That's not what we do with food. If you don't want it, pop it here. Same sentence over and over. That repetition really helps. And I have a blog on it, would you believe? Which actually I ruthlessly researched and then we tried and tested with my daughter who was such a food thrower. And she just do anything to, you know, get a reaction. So don't react.

Dr Rupy: This is the thing, like parenthood is teaching me the art of um not getting angry and just being as calm as possible because I think it's the only thing, this is the from what I'm I'm hearing from you and from other people that I've spoken to, it's the cheat code to parenting. It's like you have to retain resilience and absolute calm in all scenarios when they are pushing your buttons constantly.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Impossible. Impossible. But yeah, exactly that.

Dr Rupy: Okay, great. Charlotte, you're awesome. I'm so, so happy we were able to get you in and you know, just talk through your books. Like I said, this is a clean book, but I've folded a whole bunch of the pages from the first one and I'm really excited to get into the the next one as well. Um so yeah, really, really appreciate you coming in.

Charlotte Stirling-Reed: Oh, I love that. Thank you for having me on. I'm honored and I've absolutely loved this chat. It's been great.

Dr Rupy: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. Remember, you can support the pod by rating on Apple, follow along by hitting the subscribe button on Spotify, and you can catch all of our podcasts on YouTube if you enjoy seeing our smiley faces. Review show notes on the doctorskitchen.com website and sign up to our free weekly newsletters where we do deep dives into ingredients, the latest nutrition news, and of course, lots of recipes by subscribing to the Eat, Listen, Read newsletter by going to the doctorskitchen.com/newsletter. And if you're looking to take your health further, why not download the Doctor's Kitchen app for free from the App Store? I will see you here next time.