Dr Rupy: Tim, this is the third time we're chatting.
Dr Rupy: Look, as a young medic, I'm not going to try and hazard a guess as to how long ago that was, but your junior doctor diet was probably similar to mine, right? You were just snatching sandwiches and having sugary juices and all the rest of it. What do you think are some of the harmful foods that even today people are still consuming every day, particularly for let's say breakfast, that are actually leading them to put on weight and are damaging for their metabolic health and their brains?
Tim Spector: I think there are plenty of foods that we're being fooled by. Breakfast is a great example because virtually every breakfast cereal claims has all kinds of health claims on the packet, all kinds of added vitamins and things you don't need. And doesn't tell you that it's they're made, it's fake food made in factories that contain virtually none of the original nutrients of those plants. So you know, that also goes for most of the mueslis and things that I used to think were quite healthy. When I sort of switched from, I don't know, Rice Krispies or you know, from kids' food to thinking what was grown up food, I said, "Oh, let's go to um, Special K or to uh, all-bran or to um, you know, some more expensive mueslis." Yeah. But when you actually look at them, they are really just full of accessible carbs that will give you a sugar spike and not much in the way of fiber. You know, nothing like that makes a dent on the 30 grams of fiber that you need every day. So that was so the cereals are, the biggest thing in the UK, particularly kids are given and you get into this habit and you're sort of told they're healthy. Then I think you've got porridge is another one. So I was always told porridge was healthy. My mum would sort of give me Quaker Oats or something like this as a and you know, when I was researching the book, it was a bit of an eye opener to me that there was a huge difference between the different porridges. And that anything you can make instantly means that those sugars are accessible instantly. And so they will just as quick as it is to make, those sugars will come out into your body and give you a sugar surge. Uh, whereas if you bother doing slow cooking overnight cooking, that's going to be a high fiber, low sugar alternative. So huge differences. Most people can't be bothered to do the overnight oats, so they go for the other one. And Oats has a huge great PR thing saying it's brilliant and it lowers your cholesterol and it's all rubbish. Uh, they're not good for you. Um, so and then of course orange juice, which beloved by myself when I was younger. I I gave it to my kids, you know, gallons of Tropicana, you know, thinking, oh, this is tastes so good and it's amazingly healthy. And it's my vitamin C levels must be through the roof here. Fantastic. But you know, it has the same effect on on your blood sugar as Coca-Cola. And you wouldn't really think of giving you and the kids Coca-Cola in the morning. So I think that then you got, you know, classical toast and marmalade, which most of the breads people are eating in this country are high in carbs and low in fiber. They've got some fiber, so I don't want to completely diss them, but we're tempted by anything that was slightly died brown by the industry to think that, oh, look, it's brown bread. I'm I'm superior to those people that only ate white bread. But actually, you just add a bit of uh carrot extract or something to make it a bit browner or yellower and people are suckered into that. And so very few breads have a decent fiber ratio that counteracts the amount of sugar you're getting. So I think that's the that, you know, that's where I made a big change to my diet. And I think the other thing that I used to regularly eat was the sort of meal deal, uh, as most doctors would do nowadays. I mean, now the hospital canteens have generally gone or the queue's too long or whatever. And hospitals have now got these shops in them they didn't used to. Um, yeah, getting this meal deal with what I thought was a healthy sandwich, you know, again, made in a factory, uh mass produced, uh and actually, if you look at the ingredients, not only is this sort of fake brown bread really high in sugar and low in fiber. Uh but the ingredients and the mayonnaise and the sauce, whether it's, you know, you got I used to like prawn or, you know, uh prawn mayonnaise, that sounded super healthy because fish is good for you and it makes you brainy and um, or it was tuna and sweet corn, you know, I was always thinking, oh, this must be the healthy option. And you know, when I started putting a glucose monitor on me, I was absolutely horrified, you know, and I had that with my orange juice and my crisps, which you get for your meal deal. And my blood sugar went up to 11. You know, I mean, unbelievable. And so not surprising I was getting that afternoon slump after that big sugar spike. So, you know, and this was me as a medic, supposedly, you know, above average intelligence, should have more health knowledge, and you still see plenty of people, plenty of medics still ignorant of this today. And I think this is the, you know, we're talking to, you know, perhaps 5 or 10% of the population, but um, 90% have still got no clue that this stuff is making them tired, making them, you know, giving them brain fog, making them hungrier so they're putting on weight, and messing up their gut microbes. And I think this is, you know, the real motivation for, you know, me talking about this, you talking about this, you know, why we want to change things and show there are different ways of eating. And how disastrous this has been, and you know, there was the we're finally admitting the NHS is broken, and our healthcare system is broken. Finally, we've got a government that is talking the truth despite putting lots of money into it. And a lot of that is because we've not been talking about prevention for the last 15 years at all. And if you basically fill people with foods that are poisoning them, you're going to get many more health problems than other countries, and so the pressure on our service has been terrible, and the system has not been coping anyway, and we just need to start rethinking this because it's costing us an estimated 90 billion pounds a year whilst the food companies are making 30 billion pounds profit from us. And that's, you know, that's half of the NHS um expenditure is what we're spending because of bad food. And all the estimates are if we change our food from the worst habits to the best, we can reduce the burden of all these diseases, all the chronic disease of aging by about 70 to 80%. So huge potential gains just by educating people and changing the food environment.
Dr Rupy: What you're referring to I guess is the um, the report that literally just came out today, um, and one of the stark things that you mentioned was the degree of investment that's actually been increasing even allowing for covid year-on-year despite what's a failing system uh by every metric imaginable. And I think the lack of focus on prevention is surely to blame. Part of the issue I guess is that food landscape, what you just described there in a hospital setting of those little shops with the meal deals. I think is basically on every single high street. And even when people move from becoming problem unaware to problem aware, they still struggle to make the changes. You know, there's a lot of my colleagues who still work in A&E and hospital environments, like well, there's no other option. I don't really know what I can do. How do you think we get to those people who are actually problem aware, which is still probably the minority across the population, but at least, you know, galvanizing that change and getting them to vote with their where they put their pounds?
Tim Spector: Well, it's difficult because people are busy and, you know, if you're surrounded by these sort of fast food outlets that are offering you a nice sandwich, you know, and you've only got five minutes, and there's no healthy alternative other than ultra processed food, uh, you can see why people do that. Um, so, you know, we've got to start changing the food environment, and easiest thing for a government to do would be to say, well, you know, the government owns the taxpayer own hospitals, you've got to have rules to say in hospital, you have to have some a certain levels of non ultra processed food. And we shouldn't be, we should be bringing that down, both for patients and staff, because most of the staff in the NHS are obese, uh, far less healthy than the average population because they are in a terrible food environment. And as you say, it's not always their fault because they're busy and they have got nowhere else to go. In other countries, I mean I've worked in, you know, a few other countries, Australia, Belgium, Spain, people bring in their their food themselves much more than they do in this country. And we provide spaces for them and facilities for them to do that, and they'd bring a tupperware and, you know, from their their evening meal that they've cooked. And so that's a sort of mentality we need to start changing while there's still a terrible food environment. I'd love us to have proper salad bars and nice food, you know, real food in in hospitals and government facilities. But you can imagine that's not going to happen anytime soon, because at the moment these these shops are propping up those hospitals, giving them valuable income, which they, you know, they would otherwise, all the walls would be falling down. So that's what we have to sort of, that's what we're dealing with, but I think if you started with the catering of for the patients, for example, and some hospitals, as you know, across the country do a good job. But the vast majority don't, so let's just make that, you know, let's get West Streeting to say, let's have a rule here that across the NHS, you know, no more than 10% ultra processed food, like Mediterranean countries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And down from our, you know, 60%, which uh is absolutely crazy. And look after your staff, look after the patients. But I think it's changing the mentality, it's changing the mindset. It's realizing that just by grabbing that that sandwich, that meal, if you do that on a regular basis, you know, you'll be gaining a kilo a year and you will feel more tired, more depressed, uh, more unwell and there is it is a there is a solution and that is preparing your meals yourself and bringing them in, I think, and and and employers helping people. Because they'll have better staff that are, you know, more energetic, more motivated. It makes absolute sense from everyone. They'll be less sick, they won't, you know, won't have as many health problems. But it's getting that message across um, in this sort of crisis type scenario where every doctor I know at the moment is just, you know, feels so much under pressure, it's not the thing they're thinking about.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And that's why I'm a fan of these devices that bring to the forefront what's actually going on when you consume these products during the day. Um, specifically talking about continuous glucose monitors and and getting that real-time feedback on your your blood glucose. Um, I guess one of the things that came to my mind when I started doing some work with one of the major catering groups and trying to revamp some of the NHS hospital canteens, is that so much money goes into NHS hospitals from these outlets that are essentially selling fast food, ultra processed food. The Greg's, the Costas, the Starbucks. You it's almost like, you know, caricature of every single hospital. We have the same people, the same outlets, and this is what people rely on. And it's also kind of what they demand as well. That's a lot of the pushback that I've had in the past. I guess my question is, now you, now you're aware of the damaging impacts of your old breakfast of, you know, your marmalade and juice and Special K. I mean, it sounds just like my, uh, my breakfast back in the day 20 years ago. Um, what do you have for breakfast now to improve your, your blood glucose, but also protect against metabolic issues and and brain fog and brain disease?
Tim Spector: Well, some days like today, I haven't had any breakfast apart from what I call the Italian breakfast, which is an espresso.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, which apparently doesn't count for fasting, so that's that's fine. Does it not? Does it was there controversy on that?
Tim Spector: Um, some controversy. Yes, it's obviously rather hard to test completely. But um, I'm a big fan of saying you're allowed black tea or black coffee. Um, because it's not really stimulating the glucose sensors at all, and allows you, you know, to not feel like you're punishing yourself.
Dr Rupy: Sure.
Tim Spector: So a lot of the time I, you know, I will either skip breakfast or have it late on. So if I'm in, I'm at home, I'm working at home, then I would probably have my a breakfast or a brunch after 11.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And classically my go-to breakfast has changed to um, the high full fat yogurt, 50-50 with milk kefir. Okay. And um, whichever berries or fruit I've got in the fridge, if I haven't, I get some frozen berries out out of the freezer and a nut and seed mix. Um, I've got a really nice nut granola in the in the recipe book that I'm now using. I do big batches of that. And I absolutely love it. Or if I, if I'm somewhere else, I will take my Zoe Daily 30 and sprinkle that on as well. So making sure that, breakfast, although, you know, it's quite nice to skip it or delay it is a really good opportunity to put those good things into your into your diet when you're really in control.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. When you're at home, you've got it all. Whereas you don't always, you know, if you're busy like we are, you don't always know where you're going to be the rest of the time. So, that's what I like to do. And it and I found that, you know, I'm filled up much more and I'm not super hungry at lunchtime now. I don't have that, I used to have this sort of 10:30, 11 o'clock dips. Or I've got to have a, I've got to have a chocolate biscuit. You know, oh, I've got to have a Twix or, you know, I mean.
Dr Rupy: I remember those.
Tim Spector: Yeah, and that was because, you know, of my carby breakfast had given me this spike and then a dip, and then I was obviously looking for yet another sort of fix to get it back there again. And don't have that at all. So really high fat breakfast really and high high fat, high protein breakfast really suit me.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And uh, I could never go back. And I sort of, I occasionally in hotels and they've got, you know, some British hotels are terrible. They've got, you know, and you might have a some muesli and, you know, a sip of orange juice. I said, how can I ever eaten that? You know, it's like the worst setup for the day.
Dr Rupy: It's weird when you when you when you go and stay in a hotel these days, uh, and you see what's on offer for the breakfast, you know, continental breakfast, croissant, jam, toast, all that kind of stuff. And you see people, you know, no judgment at all, but like just going for it as you would do, because it is quote unquote normal. But now through the lens of how intuitive you are about what's actually going to happen a couple of hours down the line, you completely change your perspective on that. And so have I. I can't think of the last time I've indulged in croissants for breakfast, you know. I, I mean, I've had croissants, but never first thing in the morning because I just know how crap I'm going to feel in a couple of hours' time.
Dr Rupy: What do you what do you make of the sort of pushback against this idea that glucose spikes are um, responsible for the dips and the lows and, you know, how much of a fuss that some people who are as respected, are saying, you know what, it's not all about blood glucose. We shouldn't, we shouldn't be obsessing about blood glucose as much. What what do you what do you make of of that?
Tim Spector: Well, I think I'm in the middle ground. I mean, you know, through the studies we've done with Zoe, we've seen that, yeah, blood sugar has an effect, but we know that um, blood fats have a bigger effect on inflammation, for example. And uh, we also know that feeding your gut microbiome also has an important effect as does, you know, time restricted eating. So I think you've got to take a holistic view of it and realize that also, we found a tenfold difference between people's blood sugar responses. So some people it really doesn't matter that much. You know, some people, lucky buggers, can have a croissant and it doesn't, you know, my wife is one of them, you know. So she eat a croissant, she doesn't really get a a big sugar spike.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, and I get a massive one. So, you know, we shouldn't be demonizing sugar for everybody, and we also shouldn't, you know, delicious foods like croissants, you know, every now and again, if I'm in France and there's a fantastic hotel breakfast, I'm not going to say no, because, yes, they don't have anything else, but you know, you've got to take those pleasures in life. It doesn't mean you have to have it every day. So, yeah, I I I think we've got to realize that we again, we mustn't fall into the trap of reductionism to think that it's only about glucose and that it's all about this balance. And that probably if you've got your your gut sorted out, you know, you can tolerate the occasional burst of glucose better than you could when you were in this really bad state of swinging around all the time. So, yeah, be aware of it, but it's not the, it's not the only thing that matters. And I think everything in science and medicine always tells us it's more complicated than we first think. So, if someone comes, "Oh, yes, it's all about gluten, or or it's all about lectins, or it's all about, you know, glucose or about protein." Well, no, it never is. So, it's a factor, but we shouldn't be absolutely obsessed with it. And, you know, there are some, there will be some good foods that have bad GI effects. And I was I was there's one of them at the moment that that on Zoe we don't score very well because of its, it's quite a sugary starchy vegetable. A beetroot.
Dr Rupy: Oh, right.
Tim Spector: Um, because it's, you know, it's quite sugary.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, you you use beet cane, don't you?
Tim Spector: So yes, it's a sort of form of sugar in a way.
Dr Rupy: Sure, yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, but we know that it's got many other properties that um, uh, is good for blood vessels, it's a more potent than salt reduction in reducing blood pressure. Um, you know, it's been used in, you know, erectile dysfunction and all kind, you know. So it has these other properties and it's got lots of polyphenols in it because obviously from its color. So, if you only went on the sugar, you'd say, okay, actually, I can never have beetroot.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And you'd be missing out a lot. So that's there are some good examples in nature of why we mustn't be too rigid and uh reductionist on this. And that's why I want people to learn more about everything about food and and all the different structures and things because it's complicated and you can't just have a single parameter.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, exactly. And and I guess, you know, using the same analogy as your wife and other people who are lucky in the sense that they don't get that big glucose rise, it doesn't mean that they can just eat all the refined carbs they want because eventually it's going to catch up with them. It'll, you know, damage their microbiota or they won't feed their microbiota. So overall it's going to going to have a negative impact. We know that.
Tim Spector: Yeah, because they won't be getting the fiber as well. So again, if you only focused on the sugar, yeah, that's right, you'd miss that nuance and say, okay, what's the reason that it's not good for you? Yes, it won't make them feel as bad, but long term, uh, they're going to get negative effects as well. But it, it just means they don't have to be quite as uh, you know, picky.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think just, you know, this idea we did have this tenfold difference between people's blood sugar responses is still quite an amazing fact, and even even identical twins having different responses to sugars, should make us a bit circumspect about sort of demonizing all food, you know, anything with a GI score above this level or below this level. Um, everything in context, you know, and I think that's that's really important.
Dr Rupy: This tenfold difference, if you could hazard a guess, I know in biology nothing's certain, but if you could hazard a guess what is having the biggest impact on that variability, is it come down mainly to the microbiota differences? Is it other things like, I know, stress state, sleep, the sort of like the speed at which they ate the food? What where would you place your chips as to, you know, where you think it's what's having the biggest impact?
Tim Spector: There was no dominant factor when we did try and break it down, um, there were multiple factors that had small effects. Jeans were still important, but they only accounted for 30% of the differences.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Tim Spector: I think the next biggest was uh microbiome. Then it was the sort of meal composition itself. So you could sort of say, well, you know, whether there were proteins and fats in there, there was also the previous meal. There was also your sleep and whether you exercised. So all these things have a role that it would take huge ton of experiments to to sort out. So I don't think there's sort of one factor that that determines it. And it and it probably can vary a little bit from one day to another. You know, again, if you've had a different sleep or you know, we have people who sometimes repeat their Zoe tests and say, well, you know, I'm different now. Um, you know, and some people it's because they've taken antibiotics in the meanwhile or they're doing less exercise or more exercise. Um, you know, it's not, it's not fixed for life.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tim Spector: And we don't know some people might as their microbiome improves, they might get better responses, others actually might get more sensitive. You know, we're not we still don't really understand all about it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: You mentioned lectins there. I've got to ask you about lectins. It's one of my bug bears. A lot of people ask me about lectins online and I have to keep on giving the same answer again, again and again because there is this sort of.
Tim Spector: Is it still around?
Dr Rupy: Oh, it's still around. In a big way. A big way. I get a lot of messages about this, a lot of DMs. Yeah, I would say weekly I'm asked about lectins. What are your what are your thoughts on on lectins? I know I don't even want to be discussing it, but it keeps on coming up again and again.
Tim Spector: Well, it's quite simple, it's complete rubbish.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, you know, any sort of influencer can come up with a theoretical reason that one chemical in some foods or plants has uh a theoretical negative effect on something and then make a career out of it.
Dr Rupy: Sure.
Tim Spector: And some people have done a brilliant job in demonizing uh this compound lectin because it they call it an anti-nutrient, um, because in theory it might stop you absorbing some of the other nutrients in the in that food. Uh in reality, if there is an effect, it's pretty trivial compared to the benefits of eating that food. And what everyone should be asking is, well, show us the randomized control trial in humans that shows that people who cut out eating high lectin foods are healthier. Yeah. And it doesn't matter whether it, you know, it's gluten, whether it's lectin, whether it's um, some uh, possible carcinogen or or whatever someone's talking about at the moment, you know, either those studies have shown no difference or they've show a benefit of of eating that food. So there's plenty massive studies have shown that people eating high lectin foods like beans and pulses have reduced heart disease, increased uh longevity. So yeah, these are just, you know, essentially people out to make a reputation because, you know, they're not scientists. And so they just pick on something and um, well, tell them to do the proper science.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Come back and talk about it. Stop talking about theoretical problems that stop people eating real foods. So, yeah, I I too get get angry about it. And similar ones about seed oils and these sort of things. They're, they're based on hot air. And people just need to say, okay, show us the trials in humans, not in mice. Um, you know, if it all stacks up, if the epidemiology stacks up with the randomized trials and maybe supported by animal data, yeah, then you might believe it.
Dr Rupy: Sure.
Tim Spector: You know, like we have with artificial sweeteners, for example, uh, you know, it's not conclusive, but we've got pretty much overwhelming evidence from many sources to show that they're not good for us. But, um, yeah, um, we need to stop this sort of infighting in a way because it's a bit like, I don't know, the, you know, the Trotskyists attacking the so Leninists when, you know, the fascists are taking over, you know. Um, I do wish the the sort of food people would just attack the real enemy which is junk food and fake food.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And stop attacking, you know, that anyone who's trying to promote real food.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. It's almost like if you were a conspiracist, you'd probably imagine that the food industry is probably behind the misinformation that actually leads people attention, their attention to go, oh, well, beans are bad for me I've heard, or you know, these kind of walls are bad for me I've heard. And so your attention goes there, whereas actually it should be on, well, what is the the matrix of your entire diet? You know, how much of it is ultra processed and how can we move you from from highly processed to less processed and ultimately, you know, minimally or zero process.
Tim Spector: It's quite possible that these people are uh sponsored by the food industry.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
Tim Spector: Um, if you look at the the the US records of what Coca-Cola did like 20 years ago, they promoted all these influencers and researchers to say that if only children in schools were exercising more, um, you wouldn't have an obesity problem. And it was, you know, to distract from the fact that they're eating all these drinking all these uh products that are making them obese and diabetic. And it's now well proven that exercise isn't going to help children uh who are drinking Coca-Colas and junk food at all. And that was a brilliant distracting device and they paid for all kinds of research and influencers. So it's quite possible that these these attacks on on real food are coming from the food industry who obviously have no interest in making beans in jars or cans because it's very low, you know, make no money on that because it's they much rather create some fake food.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. So I think that's a good point. Um, we should look at the funding of some of these people. Yeah. Um, you know, and who's paying for their publicity and their um, all these other things. And um, yeah, I'm highly suspicious of lots of attacks or alternate theories.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Aside from how uncomfortable is obviously for your family when that kind of stuff happens, how do you ground yourself when you're, let's say before the the official body of dermatology actually comes to your defense. How do you ground yourself when everyone is attacking you from newspapers to other academics, etc, etc. Like.
Tim Spector: It's more uncomfortable for my family. They get upset.
Dr Rupy: Sure, yeah.
Tim Spector: When I get nasty tweets or um, so you know, I generally mute the people that I don't want so I don't see them or, you know, and I tend to look less at at Twitter or X than I used to anyway.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, but even on Instagram, you get some comments. I realize that some of them are directly paid for by the food industry.
Dr Rupy: Ah.
Tim Spector: Um, some are disgruntled uh academics.
Dr Rupy: Uh-huh.
Tim Spector: that have made it their career to attack me and Zoe, and you know, have their own PR companies now, probably paid for by the food industry to particularly if I'm attacking ultra processed foods or whatever, because they they now see Zoe and me as the same. And therefore, a reasonable target. I did something, it was interesting like it can go into other fields. I I I had a tweet that went viral about sunscreens.
Dr Rupy: Oh yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, I said people don't need to wear sunscreen year round.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Tim Spector: Um, it's completely madness and and bad for your skin.
Dr Rupy: Uh-huh.
Tim Spector: And you know, we all need vitamin D. And, uh, and supplementation, you know, and I I'd said previously supplementation is a waste of time. And, 3 million people or whatever got this and everybody laid into me. Uh, these influencers who are pedaling sunscreens to young women year round on Tik Tok and whatever. So and, you know, I had celebrities weighing in, I had, I don't know, Jay Rayner, I had um The gynecology doctor wrote the book some I don't know.
Dr Rupy: Wow. I I try and spend as little time as I can. People who knew nothing about the subject.
Tim Spector: You know, I've been studying vitamin D for 25 years.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Spector: My wife is a melanoma expert, uh, and everything I said was absolutely true. So and then the newspapers all piled in and you realize that actually the sun cream industry are paying these medical charities to promote this stuff. And there's absolutely no evidence that it reduces aging, which is what they're sort of saying.
Dr Rupy: Right. There's no evidence.
Tim Spector: No evidence that reduces aging. There's no decent. And eventually the British Association of dermatologists came out and said, "Well, he's actually right. You know, why would you tell young women living in England in midwinter to wear SPF 30?" Um, as an extra layer on their skin all year around. So they they are, you know, most of their lives wearing an SPF 30 in a country like the UK. And then being told they have to take vitamin supplements on top of that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And this this is all paid for by the the industry and promoting and whatever. So that's that's sort of other example of how we're influenced by these big corporations and how they can, you know, they have posters, you know, they're supporting posters by skin charities, um, as if it's coming from the official bodies. And you know, you got the food industry doing the same with, you know, the British Nutrition Foundation and all kinds of quasi, uh, seemingly charitable organizations paid completely by the food industry. And um, we've just, you know, we just need to wake up and realize that everything we're being told is not actually, you know, independent advice.
Dr Rupy: I was literally what happened to me last night. My wife's pregnant and she's having, we generally eat mainly plants during the week with a bit of fish. But she's been having cravings for for steak. And that's literally what I had last night. But my, I think my gut microbes aren't used to having red meat anymore because I feel heavy the next day and I just, you know, a little bit of bloating and just my microbes clearly haven't adapted quick enough to accept.
Tim Spector: No, well, they they they're in for a bit of a shock, aren't they? I think a big slab of steak on there said, "What's this guy doing? You know? Um, he told us to go on holiday."
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yes.
Tim Spector: So I think that's that's really a an interesting message that once you do have less meat, you need, you're satiated by much less of it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, and uh, and it's a bit like people who don't eat many vegetables, you know, and you get all these people that said, "Oh, I can't, I can't eat vegetables. They give me bloating and, you know, and constipation. I feel terrible." Well, you need to build up your microbes so they can digest those pulses and, you know, these high fiber foods that that we're talking about. So I think it, it works across across the board really, that things you're not used to eating, you know, might cause you some problems if if you don't do it gradually and and build up your your reserves. I mean, we've never thought about digestion in that way that, oh, it's just your acid that breaks it down and nothing else really matters. But, I think clearly the microbes are playing a key role.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, there's a huge army there battling down and breaking down your food. Um, with regards to your B12, is that something that you're able to manage with food now or do you have to supplement or is it?
Tim Spector: Uh, yeah, I'm I I do check it sort of once a year.
Dr Rupy: Uh-huh.
Tim Spector: Um, but I I can largely manage it with food.
Dr Rupy: That's great to hear.
Tim Spector: Um, I might get a once a year injection or something if I'm low because I've got high blood pressure, so there's some evidence that low B12 has a a negative impact on your control of your blood pressure. That's why I'm perhaps more fussy than most people.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As we should be, you know, like even with my own health issues that I had, I I'm probably, I feel I have a lower threshold for unhealthy habits than my colleagues. And I think everyone's different. I think, you know, that that's that stands, that's a good testament to that. Um, you mentioned dairy uh before. With the exception of cheese, an aged cheese that I know you're a big fan of, um, what about regular dairy that most people have in their their coffee, in their cereal as a as a drink? Um, what what are your what are your thoughts on on dairy now?
Tim Spector: Dairy is interesting. I mean, I think there's no reason for adults to drink dairy. You think about, well, cow's breast milk, you know, why would we carry on drinking it? Milk, breast milk, very good for children, designed for rapid growth, etcetera. Um, all the studies suggest that, uh, if you have a lot of milk in your diet, you, it doesn't make you healthier, but it does make you grow faster. They've done studies showing that actually your bones get longer but actually more fragile. So we now all the epidemiology shows that milk drinkers are not protected against fracture. I used to tell my patients completely the wrong advice. You know, if they were vegans or whatever, I'd say, "Well, you really need to do something about this because you're not having milk." No evidence really that, you know, unless they've got other vitamin deficiencies that they're they're in trouble. So this myth that milk and calcium were really important for our bone health has been disproven by all the the latest epidemiology and trials. So we shouldn't be seeing it as a health drink. I think we shouldn't demonize it either. And so having, if you have a splash of, you know, milk in your coffee, it's really no consequence. Um, unless you're lactose intolerant or whatever. But um, so, but I don't think we should be encouraging people to drink pints of milk.
Dr Rupy: Okay. Like we used to.
Tim Spector: Yes, like we used to, like I used to. Um, thinking it was going to be good for me. There's obviously no evidence it is, you know, and um, for some people, you know, it is going to cause problems. But when you ferment it, it does seem to be good for you. So whether that's as kefir or yogurt or cheese, interestingly. So, but it's probably more the microbes and the fermenting that's making it good rather than the basic lactose and um, proteins in the milk.
Dr Rupy: So do you think it would be the consumption of probiotics in that fermented product versus something to do with the saturated fats or the proteins and how they coagulate in that fermented product? So what would, I guess another way of asking it would be, if you were to have, uh, kefir made from milk and kefir made from coconut or water, would you have the same benefits to the to the person?
Tim Spector: It's hard to answer that. I mean, because you get different microbes in the two and it they haven't managed to work out to get microbes that grow in coconut as easily as they do in milk. So, lots of microbes prefer milk to coconut. So it's tough tougher. Um, but I I suspect that the main effect is is having the right number of microbes rather than the substrate. Um, so that's that's my hunch anyway. So, but it means that if you can get the similar similar ones growing in coconut, it should be just as good for you. And there are there are data that um, water kefirs, for example, uh, fruit fruit kefirs or tibicos, uh, have a lot of the same benefits as the milk kefirs, if you've, you know, um, if you're doing similar types of studies. So I think we're going to see more of those non-dairy ones, because you know, 80% of the population of the world's population don't have the enzyme to break down lactose. And um, this is very much a western sort of dominated idea. And although fermentation breaks, you know, breaks it into smaller fragments and things, there's still some people who are a bit sensitive to it. So I think we're going to be seeing more of the the non milk products. And you know, and increasingly for the planet, if you can have a a really good non milk product, fermented food, we should be switching to it. You know, we shouldn't be encouraging keeping, you know, billions of cows, uh, to provide us with their breast milk. It seems a bit weird.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Dr Rupy: Coffee. We've mentioned coffee a couple of times now. We've both just had our coffees ourselves. Clearly you're a you're a coffee drinker and you're a coffee fan. Uh, what what what do we know now? What have you learned about coffee since you started writing your books? Um.
Tim Spector: Well, I mean, since I I first, my I wrote my first paper on coffee uh actually in about 1981.
Dr Rupy: Wow. Well before you were born.
Tim Spector: Yeah, yeah. Um, saying that it caused cancer of the pancreas.
Dr Rupy: Okay. It's all right.
Tim Spector: So, I've spent the rest of my career trying to make up for that dreadful mistake.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, although it got me into the Lancet, so it helped my career.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Tim Spector: My early career. As I was a student then. But um. Uh, yeah, so we, coffee's gone through these cycles of it's the demon drink, it's a great drink, it's a demon drink, it's a great drink. You know, it's typical Daily Mail headlines of, you know, uh, it it causes cancer, it cures cancer. At the moment, all the evidence suggests that apart from a a small fraction of people that don't get on with it, it's really healthy. And that you reduce heart disease by about 20 to 30% if you take, uh, have two or three cups a day.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Tim Spector: And it looks like up to five cups a day is still healthy.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Tim Spector: They used to really worry about the caffeine and all these problems, but that's not been born out by any of the data.
Dr Rupy: Mhm. Mhm.
Tim Spector: And it's because it's a high fiber, high polyphenol drink that uh has properties that we don't really understand what they are, but it because there's so many different components to it. And it also seems to be helpful if it's decaffeinated. So it's not the caffeine that's that's causing the, particularly the heart benefit.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Tim Spector: So this is good news for people who, you know, uh can't tolerate the taste, don't like the caffeine. They can have high quality decaf and get some benefits. Um, so yeah, I I think I recommend everyone treat it as a plant. It is a fermented plant. We ought to just see it as one of the, you know, 30 a week. It's an easy one to tick off for us. Uh that we've got. But, you know, I think it's it's giving it to its status as a a plant health food. Uh-huh. Rather than this evil cancer inducing stuff that, you know, I used to think it was. And what's really fascinating, we've got a um a paper coming out showing that there's one microbe that we've all got in this country.
Dr Rupy: Uh-huh.
Tim Spector: Um, called Lasonobacter.
Dr Rupy: Lasonobacter.
Tim Spector: That is the fussiest microbe uh in Christendom because it it only uh eats coffee.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Tim Spector: And it's so fussy. And because there's so many coffee drinkers, um coffee drinkers have high levels of Lawsonobacter.
Dr Rupy: Uh-huh.
Tim Spector: And when you don't drink coffee, it drops around to really minimal levels but it doesn't disappear. So it's hanging around in some sort of suspended animation in most in people. And it's in the air because if you live with coffee drinkers, you know, you might kiss a coffee drinker or you know, you're exchanging saliva or whatever. you know, after a few years, babies don't have it, but eventually they will get this microbe. And it just sits there waiting for you to drink coffee and then it goes wild.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Tim Spector: And expands. And it's the strongest association we found at Zoe between a a food substance and a specific microbe.
Dr Rupy: Uh-huh.
Tim Spector: And it it's a lovely story, um, and uh, it and it's interesting because this doesn't exist in non coffee drinking countries.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Tim Spector: And doesn't exist in babies. So it's it's really a sort of cultural thing that we've we've brought on. And there's a similar story about seaweed eating microbes in Japan. But it, this is a really nice one, but it gives us the idea that once you've got these big studies like, you know, we've got, this is based on 30, 50,000 people, but once we've got 200,000 people, we can start looking at other food microbe associations like this. And so really track what these are doing. Um, so I think it's like the first of many, but it was that was really a quite a cool thing to suddenly learn about this um, this fussy coffee loving microbe.
Dr Rupy: That's so funny.
Tim Spector: When you think it's just been there and and you know, where did it come from?
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: You know, how did it get into humans? All these kind of weird stories that just make me more fascinated about the gut microbes and you know, this whole world that we know nothing about.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And you know, could this be and could the microbe be producing, you know, these chemicals that then interact with our immune system, then, you know, help us reduce inflammation and fight heart disease? You know, we don't know.
Dr Rupy: Gosh.
Tim Spector: You know, it could lead to some new medications and um treatments.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: You know, just, you know, food is medicine idea just gets, you know, stronger and stronger, doesn't it?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that's the sort of like thread of this whole conversation of food is medicine is something that you've you've really become a proponent on over the course of your career. I think when I started, certainly at at med school, no one was really talking about food in a a medicinal context, but now it's really galvanizing um, popular.
Tim Spector: Yeah, when I first heard it, there were these sort of alternative practitioners talking about it. I thought they were all nutters.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: I'll be honest, you know, and I think most of my medical colleagues regarded anyone who said that. Yeah. Was bonkers.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Or selling snake oil. Yeah. You know, and now, yeah, there's me saying, exactly that, that it is the most powerful medicine we've got. We're just not using it right.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And um, everyone needs to to realize that that potential and by understanding how it all works, I think you you get a you can move away from the sort of lectin type scare story and start really thinking about, you know, your own body and and and all the different chemicals going on in there. And how it's ridiculous to to single out one or get obsessed with it, you know, think about the thousands of chemicals you need to be pumping out and your body is a is a pharmacy that and your microbes are all mini pharmacies that you need to feed with the right ingredients. And that way you, you can avoid some of these pitfalls of people taking you down, you know, blind alleys and things like this. This is the only cause of this disease. This is the reason you've got this. This is, you know, you can never eat this. All these sort of rigid rules that are basically complete rubbish.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Um, we've really talked about those six concepts in your book around this conversation. You've talked about the the diversity, eating the rainbow, polyphenols, etcetera, etcetera. Um, pivoting your protein. Um, one thing I thought we could finish up on is this idea of um, time restricted eating, something that you mentioned that you do right at the start. What kind of window are we talking about? And do you think that someone's fasting regime, quote unquote, is different from from person to person? Do you think someone would benefit from a 16 8 window versus a 12 12 window? Do you think there are variations in in how one responds?
Tim Spector: So the studies that have been done on time restricted eating, obviously all using volunteers, they're all keen to do it.
Dr Rupy: Sure.
Tim Spector: It's not just taking people off the street at random and doing it. So you get the selected audience and they get told what to do and they're often in the US, they're paid to do it and and to complete. So you don't really know how easy or hard it is to do these things. And that's why I'm a bit skeptical about these small randomized trials about what that really means. Um, because those studies do show that, yes, if you can fast for 16 hours and you can do it so you don't eat after 5:00 p.m. or something, you get the sort of maximum benefits.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, but you know, is that applicable to real life? Can you sustain that? And we did, we looked at exactly that, um, with Zoe, we asked 140,000 people to take part in this sort of citizen science study. They all, they all agreed to do uh time strict eating with a 14-hour window, which we thought was a sort of pragmatic middle ground. And some studies have shown that that works nearly as well. Um, a third managed it quite easily. A third didn't, just said, "Oh, once once they were told and they had to start," "Oh, I'm not doing that." And a third sort of half did it, found it tough, you know, uh, and and sort of didn't totally adhere to the protocol. So I think that gives you a flavor about, you know, how many people will find it really easy to do this. I mean, I find it really easy. My wife finds it really tough. Uh, Jonathan Wolf, you know, CEO of Zoe, Yeah. can't cope with it.
Dr Rupy: All right.
Tim Spector: Um. So I think we have to realize there's a personalized element to it.
Dr Rupy: Sure.
Tim Spector: And it's and it's, you know, some of it's, how hungry do you feel as soon as you wake up?
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: I don't feel hungry when I wake up. Some people do. You got to respect that difference.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: You know, we're talking about personalization. I think exactly that goes into it. So, I think all we can really say is that, you know, try it, give it a go. If it suits you, it's going to be dead easy. It's a really easy way to improve your mood, your energy. We found that the third of people, the 30 odd thousand that did it, they lost weight, they improved their mood, their energy levels, uh, had less gut symptoms, things like heartburn improved, interestingly. Um, bloating improved. But it's not for everybody.
Dr Rupy: Sure.
Tim Spector: And the important thing is that you need to sustain this for years and decades to be of use. And probably need to do it at least five days out of seven.
Dr Rupy: M-hm.
Tim Spector: But even if you did it a couple of days, it's probably still helpful.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Other smaller studies have suggested that although the microbes improve and you get tying up your microbiome, the weight loss is mainly due to thinking about uh snacking more.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Tim Spector: And avoiding that late night snack.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Which not only is bad for your gut, but, you know, adds un- unneeded calories and things.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: which you, if you just thinking more logically, Yeah. uh it's not a problem. And it is getting out of the British culture of sort of eating all the time.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Which you don't get in, you know, I spend a lot of time in Spain and nobody there really snacks. They'll go long periods of time waiting for their their big meal.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And so everything's around those meal times. So they would snack around those meal times but not, you know, two hours before it or two hours after it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tim Spector: Just make sure you eat enough at that those those meal times. So I think that was a really useful insight into sort of pragmatic advice about time restricted eating. So I say to people, try it, you know, try and not eat after your main meal, you know, there's a big habit in many British households of, you know, a bit of cake and biscuits, you know, as you're watching telly 10 o'clock at night.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. One of the worst things.
Tim Spector: Have that, you know, right as your dessert, you know, have it with your meal.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Or eat more for your meal if you're going to feel peckish afterwards, you know, you're not eating enough.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, that's a better way of doing it. But yeah, it was it was interesting. So try it, but don't assume that everyone should do it and don't feel a failure if it's not for you.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. I think it's super sound advice. I'm one of those people who don't feel hungry in the morning, which is why for me, fasting is a great tool. I can train fasted, I have my my meal like mid-morning, um sometimes even later. Just I sort of, I'm very intuitive about it. I just kind of gauge how I feel that day. Um, but it's, yeah, it's it's nice to know that there's the research that shows that it's not for everyone. And you really got to be, you know, responsible and and um, take ownership yourself as to whether you want to engage in it or not. Um, I'm going to bring this conversation to a close. But I thought we were talking about fermented foods.
Tim Spector: Oh yeah, yeah, let's talk about that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I was I was going to do a quick round one thing we missed.
Tim Spector: Of the list, I think.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, let's do fermented foods. We touched on it with dairy but then we just sort of didn't go into the.
Tim Spector: Let let's dive in.
Dr Rupy: Let's dive into fermented foods because this is one of the things that um, it is a big part of the book and I think you and I both are a big fans of trying to get, you know, pickles, ferments, more probiotics into the diet in interesting ways rather than just relying on supplements that are being sold everywhere.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Yeah, so there's lots of recipes. I haven't counted how many that include ferments. And nearly all of them have a, you can always add in sauerkraut, kimchi, uh, whatever. There's, there's three salad dressings that are all got ferments in them. So rather than just your oil and vinegar, you know, we've got a a kimchi dressing, we've got a sauerkraut dressing, we've got a kefir, milk kefir dressing so that you can actually add it to all your salads. And there were lots of ways where you can just fold, you know, sauerkraut and kimchi into many many of these dishes. Um, obviously we talked about miso. Um, obviously if you're cooking with miso, it's going to kill it off. But you know, leaving some to stir in at the end when it's still warm is is absolutely fine. And of course we're both big fans of adding kefir, particularly to curries and things like this right at the end, so just swirling it around or adding a topping or even just, you know, sticking a bit of uh yogurt with with lime on top of things. And you just realize that, well, actually, there's no reason not to do that on every meal. And so I've got into the habit now of doing this. And you just need to make sure you've got, you know, your big pots of your your sauerkraut, your your your kimchi and your your kefir and your yogurt that you can add to everything. And that way, you know that, um, you're going to get your ferments in. The latest evidence suggests that, you know, having at least three portions of ferments is, is guaranteed to improve your immune system in just a couple of weeks.
Dr Rupy: Wow.
Tim Spector: And so particularly with people worried about infections and the flus and COVID and and taking antibiotics, you know, this is just a really easy way to cover your bases and make the food's more interesting and and tasty and more complex with, you know, especially when you're adding the the krauts in.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Uh, or the kimchis, you're getting different textures and things. And I I think it's a great way to introduce kids to uh fermented foods is by folding them into other foods.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: So they're not just there with with that potentially sort of dangerous sourness or or spiciness, but you can just mix them in. So more and more I've been mixing these these ferments in with other foods and so far haven't been any disasters, you know. I thought, well, maybe there'll be something that would just be horrible. But I don't know whether you found any, but I've not, I've not actually sort of um, found anything that that doesn't work.
Dr Rupy: No, we've got like a, in the kitchen, I'll show you. We've got a little fermentation station. It's like a little cupboard that we we keep with all our ferments bubbling away for weeks and weeks and weeks, and then we put them in the fridge. And luckily, touch wood, we've we've been fine. Nothing's actually exploded or anything like that.
Tim Spector: I did have one explosion when I was when I was testing some of these things. Uh unfortunately, it was a a bottle, um it didn't break, but I I opened it and uh, basically this uh, it was it was a a water cafe with lemon, ginger and turmeric, and it hit the ceiling.
Dr Rupy: Oh gosh, turmeric.
Tim Spector: And so I've got turmeric stains on my kitchen ceiling. If you look up, you it's impossible to get it off. So that's that's probably the main sort of uh downside. But you don't, you're not going to get exploding sauerkraut to the same.
Dr Rupy: No, no. to the same thing. So I don't want to put people off. For sure, yeah. What's your preferred method for making krauts and stuff? I use a 2% lactation method, I think it's called.
Tim Spector: Yeah, I think that's the standard one is uh, 2% is the minimum amount of salt. So it makes it dead easy if you just say, all you got to do is weigh whatever your your plant is, your cabbage or your um, uh radish, and mix it with 2% minimum salt. You don't want to go below that because below that you don't get the right conditions. You can get other microbes in it. So two, two and a half, um, sometimes for for my uh when I'm doing kimchi, I add 3% and then slightly rinse it.
Dr Rupy: Okay. Uh-huh.
Tim Spector: Um, but it it means you're bringing it down to 2%.
Dr Rupy: Sure, yeah.
Tim Spector: So I think 2% is a general rule. That's everyone should learn that. Just make sure your maths is good when you're when you're weighing it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Spector: So you don't get it wrong. Um, and that way it's not too super salty.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And uh, it just works for everything. Um, uh, you know, I seem to be like 2% for salt and for my uh my uh drinks, you know, so the the kombuchas, the water kefirs, it's about 5% sugar seems to work pretty well. So it's a, once you get these figures in, everything else becomes very easy. It's about the only thing you need to remember.
Dr Rupy: Totally, yeah.
Tim Spector: You know, and um, I want everyone to be able to make a, you know, a sauerkraut. Um, it's so easy. Chop up a bit of cabbage, mash it with 2% salt, stick it in a jar. I mean, you can't get much easier than that.
Dr Rupy: Totally, yeah. No, we love experimenting with different ferments at home and stuff and just folding them into meals and and adding them to the the side as well. Um, we're going to do a quick quick fire round just to end up. I know you could talk about each of these subjects for ages. Um, alcohol, what are your thoughts on alcohol? Have they changed? Do you think it's, you know, this whole red wine phenomena, uh, is it is it actually true or are you sort of on the side of pure abstinence?
Tim Spector: I practice what I preach, so I drink, so I can't uh, I, what I would say is that um, different people respond to alcohol differently. So give alcohol a rest every now and again and see how you feel. If it dramatically improves your life, you know that you're much better off without it. Um, you can always reduce our alcohol. Um, you know, you don't want to be having headaches and feeling bad. So I've certainly reduced the amount of alcohol I have. I have one alcohol free day a week. Um, but I found when I actually uh had a couple of weeks without alcohol, it didn't transform my life.
Dr Rupy: Sure.
Tim Spector: And I have friends who it has transformed their life. So I think again, it's there is a personal element to it. And if you are going to drink alcohol, um, have small amounts, have as much red wine as you can. Um, because it is the one that does help your gut microbes. Artisan cider is an alternative because it has very high polyphenol levels.
Dr Rupy: Ah.
Tim Spector: Again, you've got the apple in there.
Dr Rupy: Mm.
Tim Spector: I do get a lot of criticism about my uh, love of red wine. But, you know, it's one of the joys in life as well.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: And uh, it's a bit like the your joy of tastes, it's a unique taste. And I don't think we should be depriving ourselves of this. It's also if you can have small amounts of alcohol and that encourages you to go out and be sociable, that's important for your longevity. So, again, it's it's trying to get that balance right, not telling people off, not saying you can never have things. Um, you have it in moderation, but increasing the lots of, I am drinking more and more, um, these low alcohol beers. I've tried low alcohol wines, they're not very good yet. Um, but some of these zero alcohol cocktails are fantastic. So I this whole field is exploding and five years ago, you know, zero alcohol beers were disgusting. Now, I tell you, you know, countries like Germany and and Spain have incredible range of them. And they're like 30% of the market.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: So, I think we're going to see more and more of these um, uh going forward that allow you to be sociable and actually having less less of the harmful alcohol but more of the sort of similar taste benefits.
Dr Rupy: Totally. I've got to introduce you to a friend of mine, Camille Vidal, who is a, she's French and she's a mixologist. She worked for Bacardi and all the big brands, and now she focuses on no and low alcohol. And she, she rates them, she's one of these sort of judges for the no and low awards every year. She's phenomenal. Um, and she's really changed my opinion on how good non-alcoholic cocktails can be and the just the the breadth of it. Um, olive oil. Uh, what are your thoughts on cooking with olive oil?
Tim Spector: Fantastic. Don't need anything else.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: Unless you're making a coconut curry.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Tim Spector: So, don't, don't be, don't listen to all those scare stories by, you know, big food companies that want you to buy their, um, highly processed blend of other stuff. You know, study after study have shown that it's perfect for for cooking, it's perfect for putting on your salads. We should be having much much more of it. And don't worry about all this nonsense about smoke points. It's all rubbish.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Uh, what are some of your favorite ultra processed foods?
Tim Spector: Favorite ultra processed foods. Uh, I would uh, it's probably something you haven't been asked. For so many times. As a kid, I I used to love Jaffa Cakes.
Dr Rupy: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tim Spector: Um, so I'm partial to a Jaffa Cake if someone were to offer me one. But they they just remind you of the past. Um, you know, I'll still eat um, some of the ultra processed crisps.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Tim Spector: I now avoid the worst ones. I'll try and you can get pretty much non ultra processed crisps now, you know, if you get one of those expensive Spanish brands that made with olive oil and only have the potato and things in them.
Dr Rupy: Oh yeah, I know the ones you're talking about.
Tim Spector: And you pay a fortune for them, but but you you know, you get really good taste.
Dr Rupy: It's a really good taste.
Tim Spector: But uh, some of you know, a packet of Walkers salt and vinegar, I I'll still gobble down, you know. Um. And I guess the one I'm most tempted by, uh is something like a in summer a magnum ice cream or something like that. And I know it's not good for me, but I just love it. But it is a rare treat.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, totally. I appreciate your honesty. I completely concur with all those choices. Those are brilliant.
Tim Spector: I'm just glad I'm not surrounded, you know, I don't work in a in a sweet shop or something, but yeah.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to be really careful about what I surround myself with because I know what my my sort of um uh my limits are. Like I have to be very intentional about what I have in my kitchen. Um, on the subject of uh, UPs, we're going to make some cookies in the kitchen now, but not not an ultra process version.
Tim Spector: No.
Dr Rupy: Some from your book. So, uh, yeah, I'll be able to watch that on YouTube for any folks listening. Um, but yeah, appreciate your time, Tim. This has been wonderful. I can't wait for the fourth time.
Tim Spector: It's been great fun.
Dr Rupy: Totally enjoy it.
