Dr Rupy: I had a heart surgeon come to one of my classes once and he, it was a miso making class and he said, I just want to talk about natto. And he said when I cut open a chest, we're all looking at him like. Um, because he hadn't shared that he was a heart surgeon yet. And
Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition, and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
We have the absolute pleasure of hosting Kirsten Shockey in the kitchen studio and on the podcast today. She is the author of the bestselling Fermented Vegetables that was re-released for its 10-year anniversary in April 2024. If you haven't heard of Fermented Vegetables the book, you got to get it. It is the ultimate book on fermenting foods. I've learned so much from flicking through the pages of this manual. And Kirsten and her partner got into fermenting foods well over 24 years ago on 48 acres of wooded hillside picturesque landscape in which they grew their organic food company. And she realised that their passion lay in the desire to teach people about how to ferment and push this culinary art to new horizons and flavours. She now leads experiential workshops worldwide and online at The Fermentation School, which you can check out by checking out the link in the bio. It's women-owned and women-led corporation supporting the voices of independent educators to empower learning and build culture. She can also be found on her Substack, fermentingchange.substack.com. Today, we talk about the simplest way to ferment foods, the benefits to our health and how it saves food waste, as well as just honestly how easy it is. I've never really been a confident fermenter, but Kirsten really did show us, myself and the team, just how easy it can be and what a joy it was to host her as well. We also talk about some unusual fermented foods like natto, tempeh and why those have incredible benefits. So make sure you check it out on YouTube. We've got extra recipes that you'll only be able to find on YouTube. And remember that is the easiest way to support the podcast. It's completely free. Just subscribe, check out one of the videos and learn something whilst you're there as well. And remember, you can download the Doctor's Kitchen app where it will give you access to all of our recipes with specific suggestions tailored to your health needs. We're adding new health goals, we have new educational features. It is the go-to app for everything food as medicine related. So do check it out. There's a two-week free trial. You can find it on Google, Android, web, iOS, wherever you get your apps. You can also just use it on your iPad or your desktop. We've put so much effort into it. I'm sure you're going to absolutely love it. For now, on to my podcast with the wonderful Kirsten Shockey.
Dr Rupy: Kirsten, for people who aren't aware of the benefits of fermented foods, what are they missing out on by not having it in their diet frequently?
Kirsten: Yeah, I mean, fermented foods are the original processed food. They are, they are just, they're wonderful. When microbes, when microbes process your food, it, it elevates so many things. Um, many people actually probably eat fermented foods and don't realise it. But let's talk about the ones that they think of. So we're going to talk about mostly vegetables probably today. Um, so I'll, I'll go down that path. Um, yeah, vegetables, when, when the vegetable becomes fermented, so many things happen. So you've got, um, the preservation, which was really important to our ancestors. Um, but for us today, you've got, um, that the microbes begin to break down the carbohydrates. And so they're, they're breaking it down such that they're digesting these carbohydrates, pre-digesting them for us. So when they hit our body, we can uptake those vitamins and minerals more.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha.
Kirsten: Which having these foods more bioavailable is, is amazing. So before we even talk about probiotics, which is what they're all famous for, we've got that the microbes, um, make them higher in vitamins. Vitamin C goes up, vitamin B12 is now on board, a little, a little K gets in there somewhere. Um, and your body can, can uptake it. Um, like who wouldn't want to, who wouldn't want to put that in their diet, right?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. It's almost like having like an extra digestive step, you know, almost like an extra stomach if you will, whereby it's breaking it down even more so, so it just becomes more bioavailable. So a celery or a beet, for example, that we just fermented now, just becomes that extra more nutritious by just that extra step and the benefit of time.
Kirsten: Yeah, exactly. And then the other thing, um, when you're talking about digestion is, um, digestive enzymes are coming into that, into the food with, with it too. There's, there's a reason I think that historically you see these pickly fermented things, you know, with these heavy meals because, um, if you're eating, you know, whatever it is, kimchi or sauerkraut or a pickle or, you know, something super fun like the beets that we just, that we just fermented, they're going to help you digest the rest of your meal as well.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha. Yeah. And so I, I'm just thinking about food pairings in my mind here, you know, um, you have like a tartar sauce with lamb or you have like, um, a pickled radish with, um, chicken that might be broiled or whatever. So you can sort of understand the food combinations of our ancestors just through the lens of, okay, this is going to improve your digestive process every day. And so when we talk about just the benefits of the fermented foods on their own, what are some of the things other than breaking down the nutrients in those ingredients that can be attributed to, you know, improving gut health or improving mental well-being or inflammation levels?
Kirsten: Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, the, the gut health thing is, is just blowing up right now. I mean, you know that. I'm sure a lot of your listeners are hearing gut health like every which way they turn right now. Um, so one of the, the first ways that that, you know, in the last 20 or so years that people really started thinking about fermented foods being healthy for their gut is that they contain a ton of probiotics. And probiotics are the live microbes that live in our gut. And that's, that's wonderful, but, um, what they're finding now is that those microbes, it doesn't matter whether they're alive to help, um, repopulate our gut or dead, they are going to, um, positively affect the microbes that are in our gut. Um, it's, it's kind of interesting because, you know, I think there's sort of this idea that you're going to eat these probiotics and, you know, there's, there's, they're just going to sort of populate your gut or you keep doing it. But, but your, your, your gut is, is already full of microbes. Some, some that you want there and, and some that you may, may not. And I think one of the, this is sort of an aside, but, but bear with me. I think one of the fascinating things is that the gut microbes determine our cravings.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Kirsten: And so, for example, my husband likes to tell a story, um, that he had a perfectly well-developed sweet tooth until we started eating a lot of fermented foods.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Kirsten: And then his gut started changing to where they didn't sound, like that jelly doughnut, he wasn't going to reach for it. It didn't sound good.
Dr Rupy: That's so interesting.
Kirsten: And so, but the science is there with that. Um, it's, if, if you feel guilty about your cravings, like blame your gut. It's not your fault. It's, it's, it's the guts that are saying send down the, the chocolate croissant. It's not your brain. Um, and that's part of that, that gut-mind connection, you know. And so it's interesting as you start to eat these fermented foods, changes like this do happen and people report that all the time is that, um, you know, as, as you're not feeding the sugar lovers that might be down there as much, those populations are going to, are going to lessen and some populations of other, um, microbes are going to kind of move in their place.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Kirsten: So it's, it's pretty fascinating and, and the more we know, I think the more we realise we don't know about all that's going on.
Dr Rupy: So, Kirsten, for people who don't necessarily have the confidence to, uh, ferment themselves, you know, using yeast, bacteria, fungi, because we've been led to believe that these things are dangerous. If they simply wanted to go and get some fermented foods from the store, what labels do they need to be looking out for so they get the good stuff?
Kirsten: Yeah, absolutely. So a couple of things. One is, in the last 10 years, there's, um, sort of all over the world, there's a lot of small makers. So I think the first thing is, you know, check your, check your market, check your, you know, your local, your local market. Um, but if, you know, you're going to the grocery store, it's really important that you head to the refrigerator section. Um, if you want these to be live fermented foods, um, because they will be unpasteurised and need to be kept in the refrigerator section. So that's your first hint. You're not going to find a live probiotic fermented food on the, on the regular shelves.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Kirsten: Um, and then once you're there, look for, look for unpasteurised. Um, raw might, might also be on the label. Um, and then acetic acid, um, if it has acetic acid in it or vinegar, um, then it's may or may not have been, uh, fermented to become that pickle.
Dr Rupy: Okay. Uh-huh.
Kirsten: So, so, uh, sometimes it might have both acetic acid and it is fermented, but the acetic acid does, you know, take out the little lacto, lacto, lactic acid bacteria. Uh-huh. And so, um, yeah, that's what you want to look for. It's not tricky. And, and to your point, like you can eat and enjoy and get the benefits from so many fermented foods without ever having to make them yourself. But, um, you know, once you start making them yourself, you just, you're not, um, at the whim of other people's flavour cravings.
Dr Rupy: Honestly, I'm, I'm, I'm completely a convert now. Like just seeing how easy that was today, you know, just the, the process of shredding or chopping, adding a salt and the flavours that you want, and then mashing it down into a jar, and then allowing nature to just do it thing, its thing. It's, it's phenomenal. And I know, I, I've, I rationalise and I, I know intellectually that's basically what fermenting is, but actually doing it, the, the process of it, it's, yeah, it's very freeing because the ferment that I buy is very expensive. And look, I love supporting local makers and, you know, artisans and all that kind of stuff, but, you know, particularly right now, I think it's, it's time to take control of our own food. And if we can explore this beautiful array of flavours, uh, whilst supporting our health, it's like a, a win-win. So.
Kirsten: Oh, for sure. And, and you can also, you know, once, once you realise how simple it is, um, you can also not only make your favourite flavours, like you don't like garlic, leave out the garlic. You love garlic or ginger, put more in, you know. Um, so you've got that control. Um, you've got the salt control. Um, if you, you know, want to be in charge of how much salt you consume, you, you can put, put in less. And then there's, um, you know, wasting less food. Um, if you've used half of a cabbage for some recipe, but you still have it in there instead of letting it languish in your refrigerator forever, you know, you just, you chop it up, you salt it, squish it in the jar like you said, and, and, you know, in a few days, week or two, you have sauerkraut. And then that cabbage can sit there for, you know, a while before you have to, have to worry about it. So, and, and that can happen with any vegetable, which is pretty cool.
Dr Rupy: That is phenomenal. We talked earlier about the different microbes that create this wonderful array of fermented foods. Most people have heard of bacteria, and there are specific type of bacteria, the commonly typed types of bacteria that we use for fermented foods, but there are others as well, like yeast and fungi. Can you give us a, an umbrella overview of like what microbes are used in these processes?
Kirsten: Yeah, absolutely. So we've got bacteria. Um, bacteria is the three sort of main bacteria are, um, lactobacillus family, um, and acetic acid and, uh, bacillus subtilis. Uh, with vegetables, um, yoghurt, uh, cheese, a lot of charcuterie, you know, it's a player in sourdough. I mean, lactobacillus is just, you know, the champion of, of so many of the foods that we love. Uh-huh. Um, so lactobacillus is, is probably the most famous. It's also a probiotic, so it's wonderful. Um, acetic acid bacteria is what gives us vinegar. Um, bacillus subtilis is less widely used. Um, it's really one main ferment, um, and that's natto, which is, yeah, but bacillus subtilis is such an important gut health microbe.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Kirsten: Yeah, and natto, um, is, is, I know blueberries and all these wonderful fruits are super, superfoods, but natto blows them all out of the water.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Kirsten: And it's the hardest one for many people to love.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's strong. I've had it. Yeah.
Kirsten: It's strong. It's, uh, how would you describe it to, to someone who's never even come across it?
Kirsten: Sure. Well, I mean, people affectionately or less affectionately call it snotto. So, so right there, if you've never heard of natto, there is a texture. Um, it's a fermented soy, soy bean. And it, uh, the lacto, uh, the bacillus subtilis creates a biofilm around it. Um, in Japan, that's called the neba-neba. It's, it's stringy. Um, my husband said this does not work for people, but I like to compare it to picking up a slice of pizza and you know how that cheese just sort of really hot pizza, that, that mozzarella just kind of falls down the side of the pizza.
Dr Rupy: People love that.
Kirsten: People love that in this culture. That's what natto does, except it's not cheese. It's a biofilm. And so that's the first hurdle is just the texture is unusual. And then the second texture is that, or excuse me, hurdle is that it's got a strong flavour. Um, if it's a younger natto, it's, uh, so it's an alkaline ferment. We've been talking all about the acidity and how the ferment goes to an acid level. Natto, bacillus subtilis takes us to a, um, alkaline level. So you get nuttiness, you get, uh, I want to say coffee type flavours. Um, you get flavours more like a, like a brie or a, or a, or a cheese that can have. I like natto. Um, a lot of people don't, but, um, it's, it's, it can be, it can be made really interesting. Like, so I, I try to help people learn to eat it. And again, we talked about cravings, like you start having it. I didn't, I didn't like natto.
Dr Rupy: When you first had it?
Kirsten: Yeah, and like for years. Um, I have, uh, varicose veins after my pregnancies and my mom, who was a Chinese herbalist and, um, acupuncturist would always say to me, eat natto. And I'd be like, there is no way. And then of course, after she passed away and I was like doing all this research and I'm like, oh my god, I got to eat natto. I feel bad that I, you know, never ate it when she. Anyway, and now I'm always telling people they should eat natto.
Dr Rupy: Really?
Kirsten: But, um, so it's traditionally served, you know, with some soy sauce and maybe a little wasabi or mustard, maybe on rice, maybe with a raw egg. Um, but honestly, it can be mashed up and put with, um, cocoa powder and, um, coconut and made into energy balls, you know, like, like, you know, a really nutrient dense thing. So you can hide it.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Kirsten: Um, you can go with flavours that are bold like Italian flavours, uh, capers and, and basil and things like that and, and just, you know, if you, if you don't like the Asian flavour, there's, there's lots of ways. Um, again, you can sneak it onto a cheese toasty because the stringiness will then, you'll lose it with all the other stringiness of the cheese that you're used to. Um, so all this talk about natto, why natto, right? Like, why put yourself through this? Um, the vitamin K is over the top. Um, it, it keeps the calcium on your bones. So especially as you, um, you know, hit a certain age and the calcium's wanting to leave, it keeps them on your bones and out of your, um, blood vessels. And, and I've, I had a heart surgeon come to one of my classes once and he, it was a miso making class and he said, I just want to talk about natto. And he said, when I cut open a chest, we're all looking at him like. Um, because he hadn't shared that he was a heart surgeon yet. And he's talking about when he feels people's, um, uh, veins or vessels and he can feel it like eggshells in there. Yeah, yeah. And how natto is a way to keep that from happening. And that image alone for me was like, I'm eating natto. Um, so anyway, that's bacillus subtilis and that is also a very important gut, gut microbe.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha. I don't think I've even come across that particular type of bacteria. And like natto is, I'm definitely going to give natto another try by the way, because the last time I tried natto was in Japan in 2015, I want to say. Um, and I think it was before I learned to have a deep appreciation for lots of different foods, like really dark chocolate or black coffee and good quality coffee. And even my taste buds would have changed with the more fermented foods I've actually included in my diet since then as well. So I'm, you've definitely convinced me to try natto because I'm aware of those benefits specifically for vitamin K2 and it's role in calcium regulation within the body, which is why whenever I say people who supplement with vitamin D3 should also have K2 as well, because it can release a lot more calcium that can deposit into your, uh, into your arteries. Um, so yeah, natto, I need to find out where to buy natto because, yeah, unless you've got a quick recipe for natto, but it sounds quite hard to make.
Kirsten: No, it's super easy to make. It's super easy to make. It's, um, it's interesting, it's a, it's a warmer ferment. Uh, the, so lactobacillus, which is, you know, our vegetables, which ferment on our counter, they're comfortable in that temperature. Um, bacillus subtilis needs like right around, uh, 40, 41 degrees Celsius. And so you actually cook your beans and, um, you keep them warm for 20 hours and then it's done.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha. Okay.
Kirsten: You, you have to, um, either inoculate them with, well, it's kind of funny. To make sure, you inoculate it with the bacillus subtilis culture, which you can buy online.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Kirsten: Or with previously made natto, kind of like people can do with yoghurt. Um, but actually bacillus subtilis is so, um, prevalent in our world. It's around all the time anyway, that often people can get natto, you know, more of a spontaneous wild, wild style ferment.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha.
Kirsten: Yeah, but, um, we have a, we have another book, Miso, Tempeh, Natto and other tasty ferments. And so,
Dr Rupy: Oh, yes, you do. Yeah, he's got that.
Kirsten: Yeah. Well, I'll send you some natto, what to do with natto recipes. Yeah, and then maybe you can find some local natto so you don't have to make it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that'd be awesome.
Kirsten: Yeah, and it also has, I don't know if you've, uh, come across nattokinase, but it's an enzyme and, and it's been described to me as like little scrub brushes. And so it actually goes through your, your, your circulatory system and, um, sort of cleans things out. And so it's, it's a pretty incredible, it's an incredible food.
Dr Rupy: That's amazing.
Kirsten: So anyway, that's the bacteria family of ferments.
Dr Rupy: Okay, that's just the bacteria. Yeah, okay, right, wow.
Kirsten: Um, and then we have the yeasts and, um, yeasts, they are also sugar eaters. So yeah, I forgot to mention the bacteria eating sugar.
Dr Rupy: Love sugar.
Kirsten: Yeast love sugar. And, um, yeasts, they, they eat the sugar and create alcohol. And, um, so that gives us our, all of our alcohol ferments, wine, um, cider, on and on and on and on, sake, whatever. Um, and bread, you know, it is actually the same, different strains, but it's the same type of yeast that also is raising our bread.
Dr Rupy: What's the name of that yeast?
Kirsten: Um, uh, Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Kirsten: And, uh, yeah, and when, and with sourdough, so the, the, the thing that happened, you know, with industrialisation of bread is suddenly they were making, um, yeasts to make it this whole process go faster. Before that, bakers were all using sourdough.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha.
Kirsten: And then when they isolated the yeast, um, they made that proofing and that whole thing go much faster. But sourdoughs are these wonderful, um, combination of yeast and bacteria working in tandem. And, you know, you get a long fermented sourdough made with good grains, you're getting quite a, you know, it's a very different food than the, the bread that you're pulling off the supermarket shelf. You've got your fibre, you've got, um, so many of these things have been broken down. It's so much more digestible.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Kirsten: And so you also get where these, um, in miso or in sourdough and in these other ferments where they're, they're working in tandem.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha.
Kirsten: Um, and then the other is, um,
Dr Rupy: Before we go into fungi, actually, I was just going to ask about, uh, not to take us on another tangent, as I'm sure we will do. Um, do you think the fast-acting yeasts are responsible for people's intolerance of supermarket, uh, bread or bread in general, this idea that bread is bad for us and it doesn't provide many nutrients? Because that really does seem to have taken hold over the last decade that, you know, we should be moving away from grains in general because they're causing all these issues.
Kirsten: I, I, I'm guessing it's in the mix of, you know, all the things. We've got with the bread issues, I mean, I think the, the things that I hear the most are, are that, that the yeast, the fast-acting yeasts aren't allowing the, um, you know, all the parts of the grain to, to sort of break down and become the food that they can be for us. And then I think the other thing that I've heard is, um, that the strains are so different.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Kirsten: So, I, you know, I don't know which, but, but the part about, um, these fast-acting yeasts, you, you've got, you know, they're being put on these highly processed grains. And so you've got all these parts and pieces that that make it not what that loaf of grain that, that our ancestors have had.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Kirsten: You know, and until very recently, you know, it was really with the industrialisation. I, I was reading something that was fascinating about how, um, you know, they were, they were marketing to the women that, that were working in these factories, you know, to get this bread that's faster so that they could work six days a week instead of seven or five days a week, you know, so they didn't have to bake their bread. And I mean, it was just like, it was just so systematic. Um, but that's, that's a really big tangent.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Kirsten: But I, I have read that some people with not, not, um, um, celiac disease or anything like that, but with slight gluten intolerances, they've found in studies can take breads that are fully long, you know, full day sourdough fermented because those proteins that are reactive have started to, to break down.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Kirsten: So that's got to be in the mix.
Dr Rupy: Definitely. I like that, that terminology used in the mix, because it's never going to be one thing, is it? It's going to be a combination of things, the quality of the grain, what you're eating that with, the, the how much, I what the dose is of the bread that you're consuming, you know, the state of your microbes prior to having the bread. There's just so many elements to it, but I like that, that terminology in the mix. I'm going to use that. Uh, I'm going to bring us back to fungi because I don't want to miss the, the fungi, the fungi. So what, what, tell us a bit about, uh, fungi and, um, uh, and how they're used in fermentation.
Kirsten: Yeah, so, um, those of us that like a, a bloomy rind on our cheese, you know, that's, uh, that's, um, you know, a, um, fungi, they're mould ferments, you know, just call it like it is. There's a lot of culinary moulds that are delicious. That powder on the outside of a salami, you know, a traditionally made salami is also, um, you know, a fung, fungus-based ferment. One of the most interesting ones is, you know, from Asia is koji. It's also Aspergillus oryzae, and it is a, um, filamentous fungus. And in the west, when people were figuring out, so you've got grain, right, full of starch and sugar. And of course, when humans have sugar, they want to make alcohol. But you have to get to it. That, um, that starch, the microbes, the yeast that's going to ferment that into alcohol, the microbes that ferment can't get into that, into that whole molecule of starch. It needs to be in that, those smaller pieces. Um, and so enzymes, in the west, they figured out, um, malting. And so that malting process is beginning the sprouting of that grain in order to get to those sugars. And that's how they make beer, right? Well, um, in Asia, somewhere along the way, they figured out that they could grow this, uh, this, this basically this mould on top of the rice and it lays down enzymes in order to feed itself, it lays down enzymes. So basically you're harvesting those enzymes on that rice.
Dr Rupy: Right.
Kirsten: And it's doing that thing. Have you ever tasted amazake?
Dr Rupy: Uh, amazake. It's a rice porridge beverage kind of thing. I don't think so. I, I, uh, no, I don't think so.
Kirsten: So it's a really fascinating, um, fascinating thing because when koji has been grown on rice, the same rice, the same white rice that you would normally eat, you suddenly realise how much sugar is in it.
Dr Rupy: Right, yeah.
Kirsten: Or you can go, and so, um, amazake is basically what apple juice is to cider.
Dr Rupy: Oh, right.
Kirsten: Or grape juice is to wine. Amazake, which is sweet sake, is to sake. So they grow koji on the rice and make amazake.
Dr Rupy: Okay.
Kirsten: Which is a very, very sweet, sort of a slurry of a beverage.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha.
Kirsten: And then the yeast move in and create, um, the alcohol.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha.
Kirsten: And so koji though is also used to break down, um, you know, beans and proteins and, and fats into fatty acids. It's just this wonderful enzyme soup that opens up, um, for fermentation. So it's interesting that the fungus itself isn't the final product, but it opens up everything that wouldn't be as available to the microbes. So it's like an extra step.
Dr Rupy: Gotcha.
Kirsten: Um, and then the other, the other one is tempeh, which I think you've had a tempeh podcast.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. That was so much fun.
Kirsten: Yeah, tempeh is, tempeh is awesome and it is so, so wonderful and versatile. I, I just keep waiting for the, the world to like embrace it.
Dr Rupy: I know, to wake up to tempeh, man. I mean, like, it, I, I can tell why people don't like it in the first instance because it has a real, depending on where you get it from, it can be quite funky flavoured. Um, and it has an odd smell to it, but it takes on so much flavour, whether you're using it in an Asian-based dish, a bolognese dish, an Indonesian dish, or like even Mediterranean, like I've put it into lasagnas and bases, and it's just so full of protein and fibre, and it has those postbiotics as well. So it's like, it's one of the perfect foods, I would say. You know, what one thing that I think people should try and get into their weekly diets is, is tempeh, just really learn to love it. Do you have any suggestions as to how people should try and get it into their diet?
Kirsten: Well, you know, I, um, I, I will make a like a fun little bacon with it.
Dr Rupy: Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Kirsten: Yeah, you just, uh, take the tempeh and you slice it up and you leave it overnight with either, um, well, shio koji is the nice, the nice way to do it. Um, but you just get a little of that, uh, liquid smoke in there with it and some shio koji, which has got the salt and the enzymes and the smoke all work together and then you just fry it in a pan and it's, it's a good, good way to, if you're a little nervous about it to, to start it out. Um, I've also, um, you know, grated it and added it and then it becomes more of a texture of a, like a, um, like a ground beef or something. And, and I think that's another approachable way. But tempeh is interesting because it's been done traditionally on soy beans, which is going to give it that extra high protein, but it can be grown on any bean. It can be grown on grains. Um, it's a little bit trickier than say a vegetable ferment because you do have to incubate it. Um, and, you know, it came from a warm tropical environment. So what you basically have to do is create a warm tropical environment in your kitchen.
Dr Rupy: Yeah.
Kirsten: Um, but if you ever have a chance to have fresh tempeh, all those flavours that you just described aren't there. It's like anything, you know, that hothouse tomato versus like a real homegrown in-season tomato, you know, it's just so, so different.
Dr Rupy: It's phenomenally different. I remember having it for the first time, um, and it was like, it's got the, you know what you were just describing with, um, cured meats, that sort of white powder on the outside. It's got that. And it just tasted fresh, like just really beautiful, clean, fresh. It didn't taste like aged or mouldy or like, you know, like a mouldy cheese. It just tasted really, yeah, nice and just easy to take on flavours from other things that you're mixing it with.
Kirsten: Yeah. And, and that powder, I mean, that texture you're talking about, I mean, if you, again, it's a mould. But if you think about it as, um, it's also, I mean, it's, it's fungi. And so you're basically growing a mushroom around beans. And so sometimes it's just framing it, right?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Kirsten: Like if you call it a culinary mould or a mould, that's like, eh. But if you say, I'm just growing a mushroom around my beans, it's like, oh, that's kind of cool. You're getting a bonus, right?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a good way of describing it. Same thing.
Kirsten: So yeah, so those are the microbes that, that, that are, that are the workhorses. And, um, you know, I said this to you earlier in the kitchen, but we are here because our ancestors successfully fermented. You know, and it's, it's, we, we as humans evolved with these foods that were alive. You know, they didn't have refrigeration until very, very recently. So microbes and all of these things were in our food and they were, you know, coming and going with us all the time anyway.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Yeah.
Kirsten: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: It's a gorgeous parallel for like basically how we should be thinking about looking after the microbes within us, you know, keeping them housed, keeping them fed, and then they'll produce all the good stuff for us as well. So there's.
Kirsten: Totally. And that actually is the secret to the fermentation too, as far as, um, you talked about, you asked about the different microbes. It's like as long as you know what they need, you know, so if you, if you want to grow tempeh, as long as you know what they need, you're going to grow tempeh. Yeah. If you're fermenting vegetables, you know that they need this anaerobic environment to thrive, a little bit of salt to keep out yeasts or other microbes that we're not trying to to have thrive. And you know, you're keeping it in that temperature range that really is the temperature we're comfortable in. Um, they're going to thrive and then your ferment's going to work.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. That's amazing. Gosh, what a gift you are giving to the world with your online courses, your books and everything, just the, the permission to, uh, to that allows people to make their own food and improve their health. It's brilliant. It's, it's phenomenal. You're such an inspiration and, uh, I really appreciate you teaching me how to ferment. And hopefully we can have another conversation at some other point when you're back in London, I can show you some of my ferments as well.
Kirsten: Yeah, I'd love to. Thank you.
Dr Rupy: Thank you for coming in.
