Owen O'Kane: We have all these campaigns, it's good to talk, get talking, you know, there are a hundred campaigns out there on talking. But we have to consider, and a good starting point is the right type of talking because for example, if you have anxiety and your talking is about constantly needing reassured or looking for reassurance or checking for details or whatever the context might be, that is not the right type of talking for you. And if someone colludes with that, they're actually they're feeding the anxiety. So that's not the right type of talking.
Dr Rupy: Owen, thanks so much for jumping on the pod again. If people haven't heard you and your story, they should definitely dive into the previous episode that we've done, probably over a year ago now.
Owen O'Kane: It was a little while, wasn't it? Maybe a bit, is it a bit longer? I don't know. It feels like the last three years have felt like, they felt like 20 years, but at the same time it feels like it's been a year. It's weird, isn't it? I can't differentiate the years at the moment. But yeah, it was probably well over a year ago.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, like I was saying, as soon as we sort out this studio that I keep on alluding to to the listeners and everyone else, then, you know, we won't have to deal with any technological issues and upgrading and like changing your browsers and all that kind of stuff. So we can just get straight into a chat.
Owen O'Kane: Basically trigger point.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. Look, I want to get into it straight away. How to be your own therapist. I love this book. My quote is on the front, brilliant. I love the fact I probably gave you like a full paragraph and I just like, yeah, we'll just put brilliant on the front of the book.
Owen O'Kane: Well, they put you in the front and Benedict Cumberbatch on the back. So there you go. Don't tell Benedict. Definitely don't tell Benedict. That's brilliant. No, thank you so much. I'm really happy you read it and I'm happy you've enjoyed the book because, yeah, I'm really proud of this book. It was a tough, really tough one to write actually.
Dr Rupy: I can imagine. I can imagine. Totally, because, you know, as someone who's used therapy, a big supporter of therapy, you know, I feel like everyone should have therapy in the NHS and beyond. You've really tackled some of the issues that prevent people from accessing therapy in the first place, you know, things like, well, access is certainly one, the stigma around it, the cost around it. And the fact that this is a gentle entry point into making therapy a daily activity, I think is a really smart way of introducing it into people's lives. I wonder if we could talk about, you know, the reason as to why you created this book and and sort of the provocative title of how to be your own therapist.
Owen O'Kane: Yeah, it's an interesting one. When I when I started to think about the third book, I really did want to do something different and I wanted to do something therapy based and when we were talking about the title, there was a lot of discussion about therapy in the UK and I mean a few years ago I talked about this idea and someone had said to me, don't put therapy in the title in the UK, people won't buy the book. It's just not a a sellable thing in the UK. And for me, as you know, it's not about selling books, it's about doing this work and getting the message out there and supporting people. But my instinct was it was the right thing to do because I thought we, you know, if I if I leave the word therapy out, I'm kind of almost colluding with the stigma. And I believe wholeheartedly in therapy. I believe in the benefit of it. And I thought, as a therapist, your job is to, you're you're teaching someone to be their own therapist. I mean, with the best intention, I don't want to see my clients when they're when I'm done. You know, I I really do want them to leave feeling empowered and that they're in control of their life. Now, there might be setback moments or moments when they need to come back for a top up or whatever, but generally, my job is to pass over what I know and empower people enough to do it. So I thought, why don't I, why don't I write a book in this? And of course, you know, lockdown, COVID, the economy, the Ukrainian war, I mean, everything was just kicking off at one time. I knew people were struggling to get therapy, as you know as well as I do. The NHS are doing their best, but wait lists are high and it's difficult to get access to treatment some of the time. Therapy isn't cheap either. So all of these factors, I thought, why don't I just write about what I know? It doesn't claim to be a replacement for therapy, but I think it gets people started and it gives them the right information. It gives them tools to to move them along. And you know, very often in my experience, even in therapy, sometimes all it can take is one cathartic moment when suddenly the coin drops or someone hears something. And I think why would that be any different in a book? It could be that some part of this book resonates with someone or touches them. So unapologetically, I just thought, you know something, I'm going to go for it. I've got nothing to lose. I believe in what I'm doing and I'm just going to trust the process. And I know that sounds really cliche, but that's kind of how I entered the whole thing really. And you know, off the book went and thankfully it's gone really well. You know, which is incredible. And even internationally it's doing well and I didn't expect that. You know, you don't expect a lot of international territories to pick it up like they did with the first book and that's happened again, which has been incredible. So yeah, I do think as you say, I think everyone could benefit from therapy at some point.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. And you know, the the initial sort of push back against using the word therapy in the title of a book, I think is really interesting because I think perhaps it reflects a changing attitude in how people think about mental well-being and therapy in general, in that they're more accepting of the fact that, you know, I won't be embarrassed to hold this book in public or reading it on the train or my commute or wherever it might be because it says the word therapist on it. Like, perhaps that is indicative of the changing stigma around it. I wonder if you have any thoughts on it.
Owen O'Kane: I think we are getting, we are getting there definitely. I mean, we're still not, I'll give you an example. I've just done a piece for the mail in the states on this book. And when I was talking to them, they they asked for a three-day segment rather than a one-day segment. And I think it just gives you some context as to in America, this is like, no, no, we really want to talk about this, whereas here, we're not quite there yet, but we're moving in the right direction. And I think traditionally, therapy was associated with very severe mental health. I think that is the, you know, the the key thing really back in the day, you know, people used to use the words like crazy and mad and all of that sort of stuff, the kind of stigmatizing words. And I think therapy was associated with people who were very severely unwell, whereas actually now, I think we're moving away from that to explore the fact that, you know, look, I think I've said this to you before, Ruby, and you'll appreciate this coming from a medical background. I really think we need to move away from pathologizing people and placing the kind of disorder titles on them. I think there is a real danger at the moment that we're over pathologizing. And every other day someone has a new diagnosis and we can we almost seem to be moving through trends in diagnosis as well. And I feel that occasionally it's helpful to give someone a diagnosis, but if you take for example, personality disorder, if you think about that as a diagnosis, in my experience, if someone has a in inverted commas personality disorder, what normally you're dealing with is someone who's had a really tough life and has had to use multiple aspects of their personality to survive. Now to call someone a disorder, I just kind of think, I think it's unfair to call someone, you know, that you have an anxiety disorder, you have a depressive disorder. I think we need to get better at that. And I'm more interested, particularly in this book, in humanizing the conversation in that we struggle as human beings, we struggle. Sometimes we're a bit, you know, low, sometimes our anxiety levels might be high, sometimes we might feel a bit lost or confused. And that is part of being human. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It doesn't mean that you're a problem. It just means sometimes we need to know how to manage that. And I think most people crash land into adulthood without the skills and the know-how because that's the way it was. I mean, certainly back in my day, you know, you got on with it, you know, the old model, there are people worse off than you, you know, it was just, no, no, no, get on with it. And I think what I'm trying to do is, you know, to to re-educate people and say, you know, there are really helpful ways of navigating your way through this and it can be much easier than it is today.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, we're definitely going to get into that sort of model of having that stiff upper lip and just getting on with things and comparing yourself to other people and how we should always be grateful because, you know, there's always going to be someone who's worse off in your situation and that can lead to shame. And that's something I definitely picked out of of this book of something that I wanted to to dive into a bit more. Um, you mentioned these sort of penny drop moments for people who have undergone therapy or perhaps in books as well. I wonder if you can share a time where you've had your own penny drop moment during your own therapy journey. Um, I I definitely think of some where I I I I sort of realized that there was this internal voice and it was a complete revelation to me that this internal voice was dictating how I was feeling in those moments as well as painting like a foundational belief of like who I am as a person. Um, I wonder if if you can describe one of yours perhaps if there've been a few.
Owen O'Kane: I yeah, I mean it's a it's a brilliant question. And in fact, somebody was having a conversation with me recently about something similar and um, I wasn't quite sure how to, you know, to ask the it was a really directly led question and they said, what's therapy taught you that, you know, we we should know. And it was kind of delivered in quite a, not aggressive, but it was like, you know, come on, what what is this stuff you talk about? You know, kind of bring it alive a little bit. And in fact, like, you know, as therapists, we we're in therapy, that's part of the deal. And I think it should be part of the deal because of the nature of the work and what you're doing, you need to be dealing with your own stuff. So I've been around a long time and I've had a couple of big breakthrough moments in my life, a kind of big cathartic awakenings, but interestingly, I had a really significant shift over the last year, which is going to sound really odd because I've been around a long time doing this work. And what I discovered in my own therapy recently was that I I have a real struggle sometimes accepting when things are difficult. You know, I have a real issue with kind of almost trying to fast forward and get through difficult times. And my own therapist said to me, um, you do realize sometimes that you you don't really allow much space to allow yourself to struggle. And I can remember it was like a proper, you know, it was like one of those punch in the stomach moments in therapy where you're like, God, I don't like this. It feels really uncomfortable. And actually there was truth in it because I'm not really, I haven't traditionally been that good. I'm quite good at problem solving. And I think over the years, I've been quite good at spotting the difficulties and challenges and thinking, right, how do I deal with that? How do I sort that out? And that's absolutely understandable and fine. But what I haven't been so good at is kind of giving myself permission to have a tough time or to struggle. And one of the huge things I learned was actually these parts of me, if you think about the parts of us that struggle, we are made up of many different parts. If you think of some of the parts of me that have struggled, if I'm kind of trying to solve them or move them on quickly, actually, I'm not giving them permission. So you kind of almost invalidate the feeling. And I've now got much better at if things are difficult or I'm struggling, I've got much better at almost creating a bit of time for it and saying, okay, it's all right, you know, we, you know, this is a tough day or I'm a bit anxious or I'm a bit overwhelmed. Okay, let's just take a bit of time to to work that out. So it's almost like you're beginning to have a dialogue with those parts of yourself. And I think permission to struggle has been my my biggest awakening of late actually that and that's going to sound really weird coming from a therapist, you know, we we do this stuff, but the the interesting thing is we're learning the whole time and we can kid ourselves into believing that we're doing all the right things. But actually, at times we need to be brave and think, actually, this I preach this stuff and I do it and it's my bread and butter. But I would encourage anyone to give themselves permission to struggle. But, you know, God forbid if I struggle, you know, that's a different kettle of fish. And that's that's been a major U-turn for me because I don't know if you ever get this sometimes as a professional, you know, that you're there and you're showing up and you're doing your job and you're trying to do your best. And and there's an expectation, I think when people come to you, they're coming to you for help. But I think whether we're therapists, doctors, nurses, there's a real kind of internal battle sometimes about, well, I can't really be be needy or weak because I'm the person who gives. And I think that's a big mistake because ultimately, you know, we're human like everyone else, which means we're going to have our difficulties. So that that's been a major wake up call.
Dr Rupy: 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I I think every person in the health industry can resonate with that. You know, um, I remember it was sort of inbuilt into the culture from when I was a junior doctor or even medical school actually when we were doing um clinical practice, um, to to be that uh authority, to be that person who didn't demonstrate any vulnerabilities, who, you know, would wear the 24-hour shifts as a badge of honor, you know, and and be unbreakable so to speak, right? And it wasn't until, you know, I got ill myself that I actually allowed myself to, you know, uh be vulnerable. But even still today, you know, the the pandemic has really brought this conversation to the forefront in that medics are not invincible and actually we do need to practice a lot more self-care and it's okay to dive into uh self-care because that is seen even to this moment even now, it's seen as a luxury. It's seen as, you know, something that um is uh frivolous. Um, I was I was chatting to uh this uh organization they're called Well Medics with a IX on the end and they do a week long, yeah, I don't know if you you've come across them, but they've started by a bunch of consultants. One of them, I think is an anesthetist, a gastroenterologist, there's a whole bunch of different specialties and they take themselves away for a week and they do conferences and they talk about self-care, they talk about nutrition, they talk all these different things. And they have like a little trip away and even the thought of that when they started ideating the the process, the the conference was thought of as a really frivolous activity that they should feel guilty about even contemplating about. You know, that just goes how to ingrained sort of this idea that you shouldn't, you know, uh practice any self-care.
Owen O'Kane: And that that word that self self-care in itself as a concept, I think it can sound a bit fluffy and it can sound a little bit indulgent. I think that's the kind of the association with it. If I'm talking about it, I normally move away from if I think it's going to, particularly with men, if I think it's going to create a reaction, I'll move away from it and say, okay, well let's call it essential maintenance. That's a completely different thing. I was it was a really interesting one for me actually. I did a, I was on a podcast show the other night with Jake Humphrey and his team on high performance. They're doing a tour around the country. And um, I was doing a talk for them and um, one of the questions I asked, which I do at every talk was asking people if they've taken any time out for their mental well-being that day, you know, I'd ask a list of questions, how many people spent 10 minutes on their phone checking emails, everyone puts up their hand. And then when I asked that question, how many people have taken 10 minutes out at any point in the last three days to take care of their mental well-being, you get like a handful of people. Now in this audience, there was well over a thousand people there. I thought it would have been, you know, it's a captive audience. I thought there would have been a lot of people. Same thing happened interestingly enough. There were a handful of people who put their hand up and the rest of the audience kept their hands down. And this is kind of the point I go to. This is not, you know, if if self-care is problematic language or it does feel that it gets too close to fluffiness or self-indulgence, well then think about it as maintenance and like like I've said to you before, you know, our brain is an organ in the body and like every other organ in the body, it can sometimes, you know, not function the way we need it to. Sometimes it can, you know, it can wear down or it can malfunction or it can just not service in the way we need it to. So like if we had a kidney problem or a heart problem, we'd we'd go and get that sorted. Whereas actually when it comes when it comes to the mind, it all just gets a little bit more because it's less tangible. You know, you can't really get to it. It's just playing out as symptoms, but it's much, much harder to to map out. Whereas I really do think, I mean, I genuinely wouldn't function and do my job well if I didn't do this stuff. I really wouldn't. And on the days when I don't or I do miss it, I mean, I I really notice it. I can I mean, talk about finding out parts of yourself. Suddenly you're just like, oh, there's a grumpy old man in here, you know. Or there's somebody who's got really low tolerance sometimes or there's somebody who can just be, yeah, just the perfectionist. I really understand my perfectionist comes out if I'm not practicing this stuff or I get quite determined and almost resolute, no, no, that's got to happen. You know, I've got to finish that. I've got to get this has to go well. And and and you know, that's the stuff that never serves anybody well. So it's kind of, yeah, I really do live and breathe by this because you you've got to and this this book talks about kind of almost micro injections into your day. You know, how do you start your day? What are you doing in the middle of the day if you're kind of derailing or going off track a bit? And then what do we do at the end of the day to kind of wrap it all up for that day so that you're not carrying loads of stuff with you into the next day. And I guess, I think with most people I see, what they do is they kind of literally tumble from one day to another to another to another. And of course it accumulates. And then people get exhausted, they begin to start burning out and and then it's a harder climb back, you know, when when that happens, it's a much harder climb back. So this is very much in its essence really preventative and you know, get get to this stuff now and prioritize this stuff. This is not some, you know, chant a mantra and your life's going to be perfect or manifest a good thought and suddenly you're going to be a millionaire overnight. This is really putting the work in but in a really healthy good way.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. Just when you were talking about the the grumpy old man inside of yourself, my wife is a really good barometer of that and she'll just tell me straight up, you know, you're being grumpy right now, you need to practice. And I was and it's good because you've got someone who can be like true and authentic and very honest with with myself. And so that that's actually a good reminder, but it is good to practice these things internally.
Owen O'Kane: My other half's similar but significantly less diplomatic. I don't I don't think I I don't think I can say on here what he might say or what he might call me. But let's just say he might just say you've been a twat.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's good to have these people in our lives. Um, and I think, you know, moving this um, uh, this concept of therapy being an indulgence into something that is for people who are brave or courageous. I think this whole sort of mindset shift around allowing yourself the space to practice this every day is something super important. I think there is a a quote in your book saying therapy is for the courageous. And I remember writing that down. It's like, yes, that's that's literally like, you know, maybe that could be the the title of the next book. I'm not too sure if you're if you're writing another one, but I that really did stick with me.
Owen O'Kane: But it but it is true, isn't it? Because traditionally it would have been seen as a a weakness or a need that people head away, whereas actually I think it is one of the most courageous things in the world to step out and to to to get curious about yourself and your life. And whether that's going to therapy or, you know, it's picking up a book and thinking, okay, well, I can't get the therapy at the minute or I'm waiting for therapy at the minute, pick up the book and get started because, you know, we we need to know who we are and how we tick and and that's what I try to do in the first half. It's like, I think I describe it like doing a jigsaw, you know, often we've got all of this stuff going on, the way we think, our emotions, our behaviors, and we don't understand half of it. And I think it's really important to go over your story and understand who you are. Tell your story, tell it properly. And that's a really important thing because most people tell the the polished, respectable version of their story, whereas actually, no, no, no, tell it properly, tell the the kind of the raw warts and all truth of your story. And then from that, you can start to kind of dissect and break down, okay, this explains why I struggle. This is why I get overwhelmed. This is why I find relationships difficult. This is why I I find pressure difficult because you then get to understand all of these different parts of who you are. And then suddenly, I think you're more likely to go easier on yourself. If you don't understand it, you're just going to be stuck in this, you know, we're talking about these negative cycles earlier. If you don't understand why you're struggling, then it, you know, that narrative, oh, I'm an idiot, I'm stupid, I'm not good enough. Everyone else is coping better than I am. If you understand why you're struggling, then you're going to go easier and you're going to say, okay, well, I get it. This is why I struggle.
Dr Rupy: When you say tell your story, um, and being, you know, very honest and, you know, warts and all, you're literally talking about writing out your story, aren't you? You're you're talking about creating a timeline where you you you block parts of your life and you you you're very, it's a it's a quite a cathartic experience, something that you do in solitude, but, you know, can explain a lot of things.
Owen O'Kane: You're well, you're you're doing it but you're doing it alone, obviously, because, you know, with the book, obviously, you're not in the room with someone, but you're kind of what I get clients to do in person, which is why I translated into the book because I get them to do a, pardon me, a timeline of their life. And I can almost, I describe it like going to watch a movie. So I'm not asking anyone to write war and peace or to get into a big detailed narrative, but I just kind of think, right, Ruby, if I went to see a movie which was your life story, you know, what would the trailer look like? What would be the highlight moments? What were the key highs, what were the key lows in your life? So that by the end of the trailer, I've really got a flavor of who you are. So I get people to do these timelines. Now, obviously, in the context of the book, it's kind of guiding them through how to tell their story. Some people might write it, they might dictate it, they might record it. Some people might paint. I I don't get overly prescriptive about how it's done, but it's just about get the story out somewhere because everyone's story is worth telling. No matter who you are, your story needs to be heard and it has a right to be heard. And then I talk about trusting someone, you know, who you can, who you can bring the story to. And they don't have to be a therapist, but they give you permission to to tell the story. Now, it's not your mate who, you know, the minute you mention a difficulty, they have got a difficulty that's 20 times more intense. You know, you don't want that friend. It's the person who can stop and just give you the time and space to tell the story. And then the kind of the more detailed intricate work is, okay, think about how you struggle now. What are the kind of key things that are going on in your life today that you struggle with? And based on that story that you've just written or painted or told, you know, how can that now, does it make sense to you? And often it comes alive really, really quickly. And from that, then you can build really strongly. And and I kind of work hard. Look, I'm not analytic in my training. Now, an analyst would be here for 20 years doing this story. You know, um, I think life's a bit too short, frankly, to be spending a lifetime analyzing and dissecting. I think there's also the danger that you end up ruminating and going over the same ground over and over and over again. So I think for me personally, and this is not to to criticize other therapeutic models, but for me it's about, okay, no, no, go to the story, tell the story, make sense of it, but then it's about how you build. I mean, I say constantly in the book, your story is your strength. Unquestionably, no matter how difficult it's been, no matter how imperfect it's been, your story is your strength because it's only you that have lived that and it's only you who understands it, but it's also only you who can make a decision that you can transform the difficult parts and turn them into something really special and magical. I mean, and I know this personally, you know, the most, the most enriching parts of my life have been the difficult parts. And that, of course, it doesn't feel like that at the time when you're in the middle of it, you're like, Christ, this is rough. But, you know, I don't think I would be doing my job now. I don't think I would be doing what I do unless, you know, my story hadn't have guided me here, if that makes sense. And I think if I didn't have the parts of my story that were difficult, I'm not sure I'd be really good at what I do. So it's kind of like what you take, it's about what you take from human struggle and think, okay, I'm going to make this something different and I'm going to, you know, use what I know and and pass it on. I think this is what we're all doing. I mean, I'm talking to you today, hopefully passing on some information. You pass it on, you know, we're all, you pass stuff on to me. You introduced me to Mo, do you remember the first time I did the podcast? Um, met him, he was just the most, he's the most incredible human being. So you pass that information on to me. I meet him, we have an incredible conversation and and so it's this constant, it's going to say network and it's the wrong word, but it's this constant connections and passing on. And I think we all do that with each other, you know, we take, we take stuff and we pass it on.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And it it's a bit of an uncomfortable truth, isn't it? That where there is pain, there is progress. And you know, you don't want to wallow in that. You don't want to ruminate about it, but those uncomfortable situations or exploring those uncomfortable and painful moments in your life actually leads to a lot of a lot of growth. Um, and I think the way you've described it in this book is it is almost like a safe way to do this uh in solitude. Um, you know, obviously there is a role for one-to-one therapy and other models of therapy, but I think this is, you know, opening the door and but opening the door can be, you know, quite a brave thing to do.
Owen O'Kane: It can be, it can be terrifying. It can be genuinely be scary. Like I I know that, you know, I think I told you my first, did I tell you my first therapy story now? I don't know if I did last time.
Dr Rupy: I can't remember.
Owen O'Kane: I went to my first therapist was a nun. Oh yes. Maybe I did. Yeah, tell us the story again though. Which which I I it was all I it's probably it's an important story actually because it was my first interaction with a therapist. And I so I was coming out or I was about to be outed. I told someone I was gay. I hadn't told my family yet and suddenly my brother knew and it was all panic about, oh my God, I'm going to be outed. So anyway, long story short, I I was genuinely a bit overwhelmed, didn't know what to do. Went to see this therapist on a recommendation. And when I get to the therapist, the the place, I noticed it's a convent and I thought, this is all a bit weird. Why am I in a convent? Now, considering the context, I'm about to come out as gay. The last place you want to be is in a convent. And lo and behold, this nun appears at the door. And I asked, you know, I say, oh, I'm looking for Kathleen and she said, oh, that's me. And she's in a nun's outfit. And I thought, Christ, I think I better, I think I better hit the road. So I go in and I was just like, I mean, I can't tell this nun half quarter of what I want to talk about here. You know, it's like, particularly the avenue I was going down. I was like, no, no, this is the wrong direction. Anyway, long story short, I sort of get there and um, she was like, how are you? How are you? And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine, you know, all good. And she was like, so about after 20 minutes of me being fine and playing the game really and not really knowing what to do. She said, like, I I've noticed that you keep telling me that you're fine and you're okay. She said, but um, I have I can't help but notice that you sound and you look a bit sad. And I'm really curious about what that's about. Well, then, where do you go with that? I mean, it was just like she was in at the deep end. And interestingly, the question just immediately stirred up something in me. And I can remember just initially not being able to speak. And the only thing I just feel like choking up in my neck. And suddenly then before I knew it, I started to cry. Totally, it had never happened to me in my life before. It was just an unexpected, okay, I can't run, there's nowhere to hide. So anyway, after the sort of cathartic, unexpected crying, she then said, so what's this all about? So then I say, well, God, I've got this big secret and she was like, okay, and. So I'm just like waiting with like the X factor waiting for the the revelation of who's in and who's out. So eventually I get the courage and I say, um, oh, I I think I'm gay. And she just goes really quiet. And she went, is that it? And I said, yeah. Oh, she said, oh God, actually, she said, I thought it was going to be something terrible. You were about to tell me. And it was just that, and I guess, like, I mean, I'm laughing about it now, but it was just that, to be honest, it was just the acceptance of somebody who I thought would never accept me or have a problem with me. And of course, that was the whole crux of struggle, as it is for most people, being accepted, being understood, not being judged. And of course, in that very moment, that's exactly what she did. And you know, and that was the beginning of a brilliant relationship, a really, really good relationship in which a lot of incredible things happened. So I guess really in terms of what, you know, going back to the book and this work and what we're doing is what I'm trying to do here is put a very human voice in this rather than the expert or the guru or the, I mean, of course, I've got all my professional skills and training and all of that stuff. But you know, ultimately, yeah, people want to know that you're doing your job and you know how to do your job. But I think more importantly, people want to know that they're in the presence or they're dealing with a human being who gets human struggle. I think that's the most important thing. And that's what I've tried to do in this book rather than someone picking up the book and feeling ashamed of needing the book or wanting to read it. I just kind of, I want people to open that book and think, oh, this is great. You know, it's not great in a egotistical way, but great in a new information, stuff that awakens, stuff that enlightens, stuff that kind of really gives a sense of hope and inspiration because I, you know, this is what I do for a job and it's easy to work on the assumption that people know this stuff. And and I know what I'm doing in that book is I'm breaking down some really complicated theories into layman, everyday language. But people don't want the academia. They don't want the, you know, extensive studies. You know, I can do all of that in the background, but they do want that, can you just tell me what's going to help? Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm, that's what I'm learning. Can you just give me the stuff that's going to help? And that's what I've tried to do in this book is to really clear away the jargon and just give, you know, usable, usable stuff.
Dr Rupy: Look, there are a lot of parallels with different sort of elements of uh, you know, lifestyle medicine. People just want to know, just tell me what to eat or like, or just tell me what I shouldn't be having or like, just give me that exercise plan. Like I don't want to figure it out myself. And and actually when you when you figure out your own likes, dislikes, your your intuition, your triggers, that like that that's actually where you can become your own therapist, you can become your own nutritionist, you can become your own PT. I think it, you know, there's a there's a ton of parallels in that. And and just to go back on that story of your your first therapy experience. I mean, A, what an amazing person, first of all. I mean, that that sounds like she just sounds wonderful. And B, what an incredible question to ask, you know, in the middle of that people pleasing strategy that a lot of us uh practice. You know, I'm fine, I'm fine. Oh, everything's fine. You know, it's all good. It could be better, whatever. Um, and just to ask that question like, you you're saying that to me, but you look sad. And that sort of acceptance, that sort of space to allow you to to um experience your true emotions. what a wonderful way of opening someone up.
Owen O'Kane: Yeah, and it was and and and that's often really important in therapy is about sometimes being brave enough to take risks because, you know, here's the bottom line. I think we we're all guilty of this here. When when things are tough, you know, it's very, very easy to rock up and think, well, yeah, yeah, of course it's tough, but this happened and that happened and he did that and she did that and my boss is a twat and you know, there can be a hundred reasons for people coming in. And actually, lots of it's really, really justified. And this is kind of one of the things I talk about a lot in the book. You know, I 100% appreciate sometimes terrible things happen. So it's never to minimize that or to under someone's pain. It's always acknowledging that as a really important part of the story. But here's the bottom line, unless you take responsibility for your life and unless you take responsibility for how you're going to move forward and break through, then you get stuck in that cycle. And as a therapist, if I watch somebody in therapy who's just going around in circles or they're ruminating or they're, you know, they're getting stuck in reassurance seeking or they're playing games in therapy or they're being avoidant, I'm not doing my job if I don't jump in bravely and challenge that. Now, you always run the risk of a rupture and them telling you to clear off and, you know, or get upset with you because you're you're bringing something that they may not like, but you've got to be brave enough to take the risk because one, you're wasting their time and money by not challenging. So fluffy shouldn't, you know, therapy shouldn't always feel fluffy and nice and warm. Like even reading this book, I don't give any promises that it's going to feel lovely and nice and great all the time. There'll be moments when it hits on something that might feel a bit uncomfortable or a bit difficult, but that doesn't mean that it's a problem or that it's wrong. It just means that something it's highlighting, you know, it's a bit like pain, you know, physical pain. It's highlighting an area that perhaps needs adjustment or tweaking or attention in some way. Our emotional states do exactly the same thing, but what do we do with them? We push them down, we anesthetize them, we shove them away, we deny them. And of course, the more we do that, then they come back and they come back and they come back until we listen. So this is, this is primarily what the book's trying to get people to do, you know, stop, you know, tune in, get to know all of these parts of you, get to know the way you think, get to know the emotional states, acknowledge the behaviors in your life that the ones that are helpful, the ones that are not helpful, it's about the people you surround yourself with. You know, are you living a life that's aligned to your values? What are you doing on a daily basis that is, you know, the maintenance stuff that I talked about earlier? What what are you doing about this? You know, so it's a whole collection of doing. It's a whole level. Therapy is an active process. It is not a passive process. And I think that's the biggest mistake that it's seen as a very passive, I'll just go, splurge, be listened to and walk away again. Now, will you feel better short term? Yeah, you will do. We all love to have a good old rant. And then you feel, oh, that's great. I've got that off my chest. But if you then go and have the same rant again and again and again, and you don't change, then the rants are absolutely purposeless. So, so this book really looks at, you know, the key ingredient, particularly at the beginning of the day is the the whole premise of, okay, checking in with yourself at the, you know, I use the analogy of it's like, you know, you wouldn't get into your car, you wouldn't drive off in the car unless you've done your checks. You've got to really, it's a bit of a safety thing. And, you know, when I'm talking about the techniques in the day, these kind of micro injections, I talk about at the beginning of the day, the stopping to check in where you're at. You know, you need to know before you start that day, you sort of need to know, okay, where's my mind at today? What's going on with me emotionally? What's going on in the physical body? Because when you tune into that, then suddenly you've got the information that you need to then make the adjustments or tweaks in your day. Whereas actually, if you don't do that check in, it's a bit like getting into your car and just shooting off. The the risk of hitting a wall are much higher when you do that. So I guess really the these check-in moments are really, really important. And then the making the decisions, say for example, it's the body, you know, and you're you're a doctor, so it's a good person to have this conversation with. I mean, in my experience over the years, if you find it hard to access the emotions or you can't work out what you're feeling or you're a bit confused or there's a lot of thoughts going on, just go to the physical body, just stop and check, just stop, catch a few deep breaths and check in what's going on in the physical body. And I guarantee you 100% of the time, somewhere in the body, you'll locate what's happening. So it'll either be, you know, I feel a lump in my throat, um, my chest feels a bit heavy, there's knots in my stomach. Um, I feel like my face is going in far. I mean, I've never, when I do this with clients, it never ever goes wrong. And then you say, oh, that's all right, let's stay with that. So let's just see what the body's communicating. And then of course, when the minute people bring attention and space and time to whatever's going on in the body, 99.9% of the time, then they'll say, I'm feeling, I'm feeling really sad, or I'm feeling really anxious, or I'm feeling really overwhelmed. So you get your inroad to the emotion. And then when you get your inroad to the emotion and something comes up, you think, okay, I'm really sad. The next point, that is the, okay, the next part of the self-therapy is, okay, what do you need? So you're going to whatever the struggle, the difficulty is, and you're not just acknowledging it. The acknowledgement is only one part of it. You then go into that part of you and say, okay, what do you need? What would help today? And then that leads to the kind of decisions about, you know, what does your day look like? You know, are there things that you could take out? Are there things that you need to add to your day that will make it a bit more manageable? Do you need to create more gaps in the day? Who are the people that you want to connect with today that will make this more manageable? You know, what are the activities in your day outside of work that you think actually this fires me up a bit rather than drags me down. So immediately this beginning section is about you're kind of really doing the the maintenance stuff, but you know, you can't know what you need to do. You can't know what actions you need until you know what's going on in the first instance. And that's the biggest mistake I see people make. It's like they have all of these. I watch it on Instagram all the time. There's loads of stuff been fired out there, telling us, you know, this is what you need to do and this is, you know, Christ, we're I mean, we're we're guru out, aren't we at the minute with people telling us how to live. And you know, I'm on this same platform, so I shouldn't slag it off, but I I I come back to the same point. I can't, I can't tell people how to live. I genuinely can't, but I can't tell them what works in clinical practice. I can tell them what the evidence says. I can tell them what we know from the studies. I can tell them what we know from psychology and neuroscience about how to manage our mind and our emotions and to get the best from life. And then from that, people get a real sense of freedom. But you know, the therapist can't go to the person's bedroom in the morning and say, I'm going to do your check in for you. You know, their husband or the wife, the partner can't do it. The person has to do it themselves. And they're using, you know, you're using a whole load of techniques. So the cognitive stuff, the kind of cognitive behavioral stuff is the kind of, you know, the adjustment of thought, managing the emotions, but the behavioral stuff is very much the actions, you know, because often we need to not only just challenge the thinking, but we also need to challenge the behaviors because when you challenge a behavior, you install, you know, new neural pathways. So it's a whole combination of, no, no, if you're genuinely interested in change, it's a whole combination of all of these things.
Dr Rupy: I'm going to cling on to that analogy of the uh the car and you just starting the car and just driving off because you wouldn't get into your car and just start driving. You would check your mirrors, you would put your seat belt on, you would check the oil perhaps your your fuel tank and then you would safely, slowly move your car out. Um, you know, and and what we find ourselves doing and I'm guilty of this as well is allowing the day to drag us through and rushing through everything without having done those checks. So I think, you know, to to use that sort of analogy as crude as it is, um, I think is really telling. And and I think back to my like my driver instructor, you know, he gave me the tools to be able to drive a car. He's not in the car with me every single day telling me what to do. He's not driving. Exactly. So in the same way, and I and I, you know, I know we're comparing like completely different things here, but you're giving people the tools via your book to enable them to do these checks before you drive into their their day and their week and their months and the rest of their lives. So exactly.
Owen O'Kane: And the thing is like it it you're right, it's a very basic analogy, but if I use something more academic or if I use something talking about psychological processes and all of that, I mean, people be like, what is this guy on about? I mean, sorry, you'll lose, you'll lose thousands of listeners in a millisecond. So it's just kind of this is kind of the reality of it. It is that kind of principle really of, you know, the risk of crashing and burning literally in our days and we all do that. I mean, how many times in our day do we get to 4 o'clock and we're just up against it and we're knackered and we're stressed and we're anxious. So this is kind of really doing the groundwork to think, all right, okay, this is this is important today. Maybe maybe you're starting off on a great plot, maybe you're feeling great and that's that's amazing, but at least you know then that you're set up and ready for the day. But if you're not and you haven't got the strategies in place, then you you kind of really do need to think about that rather than just basically colliding into the day and tomorrow and the next day and the week, you know, and that that suddenly becomes monstrously big. So with the information, you can do something powerful, but the actions are really important. It's about that knowing, okay, what what might I need? What what traditionally helps me here? Yeah, even like I know sometimes if I wake up and I haven't, you know, if I haven't planned it, if I wake up and I think, oh, I'm not feeling 100% today or God, I'm a bit overwhelmed or I suddenly look at my diary and I think, bloody hell, that's that's hardcore today. It's a lot. I know sometimes I'll just think, you know, I'm going to get out for a run. Hadn't put it in the diary, but for half an hour, I'll get it in the diary. I'll I'll work that out. I mean, the difference on the day can be chalk and cheese just because I've got out and had that run and used the run as an opportunity to do some of this work while I'm out running just to kind of do my check-ins and think through my day and kind of tweak and regulate and do all of that stuff. And then I come back and it's a totally different start to the day. And then you think, okay, you know, what what goes into my body today? What foods am I eating? You know, are these foods going to, you know, are they going to nourish me? Are they going to be supportive of my day? You know, where are the breaks on my day? Where are the gaps? Who are the people? Where's the fun? Where's the lightness? Where's the kind of more soul nourishing stuff? What am I reading at the minute? What am I listening to? You know, all of these things are just, I mean, they're just, I mean, I went to bed the other night and I never watch the news going to bed ever as a general rule. I just kind of think if it's important, I'll know about it tomorrow. And I just kind of think that's just not a healthy way to end the day. And I watched the news the other night. I was awake for about an hour and a half because it was just the the content was just, I mean it was huge. And it's not denying what's going on in the world, but it's like this is not the time.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, there's an appropriate time to absorb information for sure.
Owen O'Kane: It's all the choices that we make. So this is what I talk about when I talk about therapy. I mean, it's a very different cup of tea and a digestive chat that we may traditionally think about. No digestives here.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. And just to be clear, so this is like uh this check in, it sounds like a a quite an extensive exercise. We're talking four minutes. So four minutes in the morning, this is your check in and a minute, one, two, three and four, you've broken it out to little exercises to do before you start your day.
Owen O'Kane: It's broken down. Yeah, and it's broken down in the book and if people pick up the book and read it, they'll see that, you know, I I break it down quite pedantically and it might seem, okay, God, how can I do that in four minutes? But actually, when you just get into the routine of doing it, it'll be easy to do it in four minutes. And and if people can do it shorter or they need a bit longer, again, I'm not overly prescriptive about that. But I kind of break it down in such a way where it's very, very clear. Okay, this is what I need. This is kind of what I need to be to be doing. So it's a kind of, you're literally grounding yourself and and getting set up for the day. So you're getting your mind, your emotional state, you're kind of, your intention, your purpose. I always talk about gratitude. I know it's a funny old thing, but I often talk about, you know, start the day with just, you know, a couple of things that you're grateful for. And again, not on a fluffy, wishy-washy way. We know from the neuroscience, you know, when you're in a grateful state, you know, chemically, you produce more serotonin and dopamine. This is helpful and our mood state. So, you know, it's not about kind of fluffy positive thinking for the sake of it, but the acknowledgement of things that are going well in your life or things that you are appreciative of, that immediately can move us mentally into a healthier, more adaptive space. So in my eyes, if it works and it's a useful tool, use it. Because it's easy to get absorbed in the dark, but we need to know why we use it. If I hear people talking about gratitude all the time, and it actually makes me want not want to be grateful because it's just, you know, it's it becomes so flowery and indulgent and and almost ethereal. And I think that can that can put people off a bit, whereas I think actually, no, scientifically, the motivation for doing this here is you can't genuinely, it's very difficult to be stuck or resistant when you're trying to be grateful for some things that you do have in your life. And most people can find stuff to think, okay, I've got a roof over my head. You know, I've had breakfast today. The dog's just licked my feet. That's not a bad day.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, no, totally. I I'm going to be doing this over 30 days actually and and chronicling my whole journey because right now I um, uh, I'm kind of like the character of Mira in in the book. So Mira for for the listeners is, oh, all the uh names and and identities of of characters have been anonymized, obviously. They've all been changed, yeah. So so Mira is this person that really resonates with me. So she is someone who goes to the gym, meditates, looks after her health. She understands the theory of self-care, but I I think from your interaction with her, she wasn't really putting it into practice. She, you know, she was she was doing all the right things, but she wasn't really like diving deep. Um, and that's a that's sort of someone, you know, I I have a greater understanding of the internal voice in my head and, you know, the theory of things, but I I need to like dig a dig a bit deeper. Um, so I'm going to be chronicling these things. In the mornings, I'm going to do my four-minute check-in, you know, my grounding, my gratitude and all that kind of stuff. And I'm going to show it all on social media for 30 days and and track how I feel over that time. But um, there there is a this period of time in the middle of the day, three minutes that you describe as staying steady. Um, why why don't we dive in in into that?
Owen O'Kane: For me, it's important because I think that for for most people during the day, unquestionably, life happens all the time, doesn't it? You know, there will be that person in the office who has really pissed you off. There will be someone who's pushed against you on the tube. There will be, you know, the person who's cut you out in your in the car, you know, all of the everyday stuff, you know, you miss a deadline or an email that you needed to come through, doesn't come through and all of this stuff and more. I had a night like that last night actually. I had two unexpected deadlines that I needed to to have done by 9 o'clock that evening, but I found out about them at 7 o'clock last night. And I had a really long day anyway, but just that frustration and irritation and I'm flying to Ireland today after I do this. And just that sense of things ramping up a bit. So the middle of the day check-in is about, okay, you know, it's again, going back to that same principle, okay, how am I doing? You know, how's the day been so far? And I guess really, it's really keeping an eye on, you we've talked about this before, but it's really keeping an eye on the kind of the mental state of watching how easy it is, particularly as frustrations build up and you get more tired and the pressures of the day grow, it's then really easy to fall into the traps of, okay, oh, this is all rubbish or am I good enough or the catastrophizing, all these unhelpful thought patterns that move in. So it gives you an opportunity to then stop and say, okay, where where am I at here today? You know, what have been the difficult moments? What thought patterns are are creating challenges or difficulties for me today? So you're getting an again, it's like an interweave. It's these, this is why I said at the beginning, they're like these micro injections. So it gives you an opportunity again to, you know, you may take one or two moments from your morning and the negative mindset on it might be saying that was a disaster, that was awful, that was terrible. It gives you an opportunity to reframe it and say, okay, you know, maybe it wasn't that bad. There's an opportunity to do better next time. What have I learned from this? What can it teach me? So again, it's giving you the opportunity from rather than kind of crash landing into to kind of darker, negative, critical territories, it gives you the opportunity to almost spot that you're about to do it or that your day is moving in that direction. So, so again, you're creating space in your day to think, okay, I can see where this goes. You know, experience, we know, most of us know really, when we get into that mindset where we go. So it's giving you the opportunity to dive in and say, okay, I'm going to interrupt that. So you're interrupting the pattern essentially by stepping in. So rather than just going along with it, you're jumping in and you're kind of saying, no, I'm going to interrupt this pattern. And it's also about kind of, you know, and keeping an eye too on the on the behaviors as well. Okay, what what what am I doing today that's sustaining myself? What's that look like so far? You know, is there anything additional I might need? So it's kind of like this constant negotiating going on. And it's and it's how it should be. You know, if you think about, why would we get up out of bed and get to the end of the day and then stay on this autopilot? No, this is how it has to be. I mean, that would be like, you think of a pilot navigating an aircraft. I don't know where I'm getting all these analogies from today, but I'll I'll go with them. You know, they might start off with an intention of going from A to B and they might have a route map, but then suddenly there might be an unexpected thunderstorm or a change in weather and they have to change altitude or course or go off in a different direction or change speed because actually that's the sensible, safe thing to do. And I think we're a bit like that as people. It's the constant monitoring. And and then it kind of gets you back to a place of stability and then you get on with your day. And then of course, that brings us to the end of the day and what you do with the end of the day, which I think is hugely important and that's the part that I think again, a lot of people miss.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. See, this is why Benedict Cumberbatch didn't get on the front of the book because you're not coming up with gold ideas like this.
Owen O'Kane: Absolutely. I better I better tell him he's staying on the back.
Dr Rupy: Awesome. Owen, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for uh giving your time today and I'm sure this won't be the last time. I'm sure the next time we'll definitely get to sit down properly in the studio and do this face to face.
Owen O'Kane: Perfect. Thanks so much, Ruby, as always. It's been it's been a great chat and um, yeah, congratulations on all your new stuff as well.
Dr Rupy: Appreciate it.
Owen O'Kane: Big stuff happening in your life. Congratulations and we'll we'll we'll catch up soon. Thank you.
