Dr Rupy: The last time we spoke, I was cooking for you. That's probably the last I don't know, the last time we saw each other in person. I think I remember I cooked you a Middle Eastern style dish, like a tabouleh almost, or a play on that. So I had like parsley in it and a whole bunch of other vegetables.
Dr Heather McKee: Because I remember because I really don't like parsley. It's the only thing I don't like. And you aided me through my parsley hatred. And you were like, well just have a little bit. You're so, you're so tied to your, you're like, just have a little bit. And I'm like, really? Like, maybe we could go coriander? And you're like, no, it really needs the parsley.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. But I'm glad I managed to convince you to have some of that at least. But yeah, so for those of the listeners who haven't come across the episode or haven't come across your work, I wonder if you could do a little refresher into you and your background and why you're so passionate about the subject. I'm really passionate about it and I love talking to you every time. And you, actually, before you do that, I just want to remind listeners that you were the person that introduced me first to James Clear, Atomic Habits. I remember when you gave me the book, you were like, you need to read this book. I was like, oh, I've never even heard of it before. And now it's like, you know, some crazy bestseller. So thank you for that. It's been pivotal to the way I think as well.
Dr Heather McKee: He's incredible. He is incredible. Like his work, I just think he's just the most beautiful, he's the most beautiful way of translating research and science into accessible things that we want to do. And I think that matters to me a lot. And I that he, you know, people are like, oh, he doesn't have a, he's a journalist or whatever, but I'm like, that doesn't matter. In fact, that makes him better in a way because he's just taking concepts and making it real world for us. And for so long, we haven't had that. So, um, in terms of like behavioural science, so yeah, big fan.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, definitely. Well, enough about James, let's talk about you.
Dr Heather McKee: Oh God, okay. What did you want to know?
Dr Rupy: So tell us a bit about your how you started your academic career and what led you down this path of of academia and and what you do in practice.
Dr Heather McKee: God, that makes you think makes me think back to my careers guidance teacher who was like, there's this, there's this course called like sports science and health, like an undergraduate degree. And I was like, that sounds too fun. That can't be a real degree. Um, but yeah, I went on to do to do that initially, um, which I loved. And actually, um, my thesis in that was looking at men's mental health and managing, um, how men, um, manage, um, moderate to severe depression. And and looking at exercise as an intervention for that. And we looked at exercise alone in the gym and exercise in groups. Um, and we found that exercise in groups with, um, CBT therapy kind of sprinkled in was more effective because of the bonding and the different, um, factors that kind of went behind that. And that just basically kind of started the spark that got me really interested in how actually psychology can really help, um, transform people's lives. Um, and it was when I was, um, in actually doing my undergrad, I was working in a metabolic syndrome clinic. And we had, um, amazing personal trainers, we had incredible, um, nutritionists. And every person that was in the clinic had these unreal plans. Like they were so perfect. You know, I was trying to photocopy them for myself. Um, and, uh, it was funny because everyone had all these tools, they had all of the things that they needed, and yet they were still struggling. Um, they were struggling to put things in place. And it was really intriguing for me. So I sat down with every single person in the clinic, all 60 of them, and just had a chat and was like, what's stopping you? What's getting in the way? You know, why is it that you can't make these habits stick? Um, and that really got me really fired up about, um, behavioural science and behaviour change. Um, and from then, I went to Loughborough University, um, and studied, um, more into, um, health psychology and behavioural science. And then I went on to Birmingham to do a PhD in the psychology of, um, weight loss. So how to lose weight without dieting. So again, like, you know, how do we use skills, routines, goals, um, how do we resist temptation, all research into self-regulation, um, self-determination theory, um, you know, all these pieces around, well, what fuels motivation and how do we actually, because I'm absolutely obsessed with what throws people off track and what keeps people on track. Um, and we did these studies where we looked at people that had been sustaining healthy habits for years, like 5, 10, 15 years, versus those that had done it for a period of time, like a good few years, and then fallen off track. And we were looking at, well, what was the difference and and, you know, why did they, um, you know, go off track when so many other people, um, you know, well, well, some of them, why did they sustain habits and why did others go off track? And that was fascinating. Um, and then after academia, I had set up this, um, group. So we had a group of people that were doing, like, we were training in psychological skills, and we had another group that were exercise and diet alone. Um, so normal kind of, you know, weight, weight management group, um, versus one that just looked at psychological skills. And I just loved being with people. Like, I just loved being kind of there, chatting with people, really understanding their barriers, like trying to really like get an idea of the context in which they live. And it was in, um, you know, quite a poor area of Birmingham. And there were people that had a lot of kind of social, um, struggles and, um, you know, it was just so eye-opening, um, for someone who's come from a quite a privileged background to actually really kind of get into the mindsets of people and really understand, you know, that it's it's not as simple as the advice or the information that we give people. Um, and it was kind of when my studies got taken up by the media then in the US and stuff and people started messaging me saying like, how do I lose weight without dieting or how do I sustain my habits? And I was like, yeah, oh God, people are into this. Like, because I was obviously into it, but, you know, I was like, people are into it like like me and, um, so I I was working kind of for a few different charities, like working as a consultant, so helping them set up behaviour change programs, um, you know, to either self-manage long-term conditions or different bits and pieces. Um, but I was like, I might give, I might give this a go. People seem to be into it. Um, and so then I kind of launched into consultancy. So I started working with a couple of different, um, you know, companies that have, um, behaviour change programs. And then more recently now we're in the digital age, it's kind of merged into digital health behaviour change, um, as well. And, um, I now do a lot of talking as well, a lot of keynote speaking because you can't shut me up about it. So you might as well put me on a stage with a mic. And I'll keep, I'll keep talking about it. But I just, I feel so incredibly lucky to be in a field that lights me up so much. And I know, um, you know, you're you're similar to myself, you're so passionate about your field. And, um, yeah, I almost feel in a way, even evangelical about it, because I feel like I I know things like that maybe others don't know. And I think it's really unfair of me not to be able to share that with people in a way. And I feel very compelled to do so. And I think like we were just talking about there, you know, I I want there to be a platform where we can translate the research into, you know, things people can do day-to-day. And that that's really important to me, um, because, you know, I know people don't read journal papers, um, day in, day out. And I think it's very important to me to be able to actually, um, you know, be able to break down what what they say and and what the latest findings are, um, that are that makes it accessible for people that they can, um, yeah, then apply to their lives straight away.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. There's so much there that you you just spoke about that really does resonate with my my own personal experience, both as a clinician, but also as a patient as well. We're all patients in some way or form. One of the things that I remember vividly is having that realisation that just me telling people the types of foods that they should be focusing their diet around, uh, or, you know, the benefits and the evidence base around these particular suite of foods, eating consistently over time, was nowhere near enough. We're not even scratching the surface when it comes to actually enacting that, uh, or motivating that person to enact that change for the long term. And the skill set that is required, whether it be culinary creativity, whether it be a plan or, you know, the the the motivation to stick to said plan, that is so, so important. I don't think I came to that realisation until probably about halfway through my medical career, by which time I'd seen, you know, thousands of of patients. So I I I really agree with what you're saying. It's it's critical to sort of have this piece of the puzzle when it comes to lifestyle changes, whether they be individual goals, whether it be work-based goals, whether it be health goals, whether it be psychological, emotional goals, all these different things, they definitely need to be seen through the lens of of behaviour change.
Dr Heather McKee: And actually, what you're talking there makes me think, um, there's an analogy I use, um, which is, you know, how many of us don't know we need to eat more vegetables? You know, how many of us don't know that we need to sleep more? How many of us don't know that we need to drink more water or manage our stress better? But like, these are what I call the ingredients of change. Um, and so we can all know the ingredients in the recipe for health. But the problem is, where we get stuck is turning our intentions into actions. And that's where behavioural science comes in. And and I I I say it's the method in the recipe for health. So it's how to take these vital ingredients and actually intertwine them and put them into the context of your life. And your life is different than, you know, the next person's life. But it's very important that we think about context, but we also think about skills. And um, I I have a cheesy phrase which is it's about skill power, not willpower that makes habits last. But ultimately, and and you mentioned it there, it's about enabling people and empowering them with skills to take the ingredients for change and actually, you know, understand what how what method works for them. So skills like goal setting, skills like picking themselves back up after failure, skills like planning, like implementation, skills like, you know, you teach in the app, like how to cook spring greens in five minutes or, you know, um, how to learn takeaway alternatives or, um, you know, how to flavour a meal. You know, that's a that's a skill in itself. Um, but the thing is, we we push information, um, and information doesn't always translate into implementation. And and what we need to do is actually empower people with not just the knowledge, but the skills and the confidence to actually make lasting change. And so, um, it's a funny because, um, I was watching the Great British Bake Off a while ago and and there's this round in it called the technical challenge. Um, and, uh, in the technical challenge, they they give, you know, they give you kind of a few of the ingredients or some of the ingredients, but basically no methodology. Um, and it's the part where like, you know, it really kind of, um, I was going to say a terrible baking joke there. Bakers really have to prove themselves. Um, but, uh, but you know, it's so interesting because those that have practiced, tried, failed, iterated before, know, you know, say they're making a jam doughnut, they know when to put the ingredients in, in what order, what's going to make it go flat, what's not going to work. So they've they've learned through a series of failures what they need to get to that outcome, whereas those that kind of rush to the outcome or rush to the end to get that perfect jam doughnut, those are the ones that are, you know, unsuccessful. Those are the ones that have that like flat, soggy looking jam doughnut that no one would even want to touch with a barge pole. But, um, I I think the thing here is, you know, that's exactly kind of how often we approach health and and health behaviours. We want to rush towards the end, just, you know, taking the ingredients, but not really understanding the methodology and and just kind of throwing everything in the kitchen sink at it, rather than actually learning and building our skills through a series of failures, through a series of iterations to get, um, to the ideal, um, you know, over over time to get to a jam doughnut that we like and that's tasty. Now everyone's going to be craving jam doughnuts.
Dr Rupy: I know, yeah, even me, like a warm jam doughnut. And actually, as you were talking there, um, I I see that in myself and there's sort of, um, they're almost like invisible skills when you're talking about stuff through the perspective of someone who cooks every single day. So, as an example, you know, if I was given a set of ingredients, some cumin, some fennel seeds, uh, some oil, onions, uh, you know, some beans, some some meat, whatever it might be, I know the separate set of skills that combine to create a complete meal. So, for example, I know that the onions are going to have to be cooked for a minimum of three to four minutes. If you want them more brown and you want them caramelized, then that would be more like 15, 20 minutes. And also to achieve that, uh, texture or to achieve that flavour, the cooking temperature needs to be medium to low. If you put it on medium to high, then they're going to cook too fast. And then tempering the spices will take a couple of minutes. So I know if I'm going to use spices in the onions, then those spices need to come at the end or for the last one to two minutes rather than the start because otherwise you'll burn your spices. And so it's the collection of all these different bits of knowledge that I apply to a recipe creation methodology that, you know, otherwise, if you're just following the recipe, you you don't learn those individual sweet skills and you're just following along blindly and you'll never learn the skill set to create your own recipe, which is ultimately what we're trying to create a behaviour change that enables you to look at a set of ingredients and know that's healthy, I know how to cook that, and this is how I'm going to create a meal tonight from these random set of ingredients.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, exactly that. And it's almost like, you know, showing people the steps that, you know, and the way you break it down and I, um, I've been playing around with your app. I've been looking at it during the trial. But the way you break it down, even the the images, you know, and it's like, this is what it looks like, this is what it looks like. So you can actually create that. It makes it less intimidating. It makes it more likely that you want to engage with something like that, um, over time. But like you say, you it's it's almost like when you're too close to it, you can't really tell, but they're all little micro skills, um, that you can develop over time. And the beautiful thing about those things are is once you kind of get it once, then that's always available to you. That that knowledge will always be there. Like once you try your, you know, spring greens in five minutes, because I was always like, what do I do with spring greens? I have no idea. And I was always a bit intimidated by them because I was like, there's no way I can make them taste good. Um, you know, once you try it once, then, you know, you've got that in the bag. You know, that's a that's a that's a tool in your toolkit. Um, and you can go on to learn a new or or bigger things. Um, but, um, yeah, I think it's a beautiful way to actually teach people lifelong skills that they that will stay with them.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I want to dive into a bit about the skill power versus willpower, but I I know people would have picked up on something that you said earlier, um, which is this concept around losing weight without dieting. I wonder if we could talk about that because I think when most people think about diet, they think about, you know, a 30-day challenge or a 90-day sort of, uh, set of ingredients that you follow alongside an exercise regime. And we know the evidence is there that you will lose weight, but then also, when you track said person or people over time, you'll see them actually increase beyond the the weight point that they started with and sometimes go even further up. And you see this sort of yo-yo pattern where actually the trend is going up. And we've talked about it on the podcast before with a number of obesity researchers talking about weight set point. But I believe it also has its grounding in in behaviour change. And and just like we were saying, if you don't have that skill set to understand how to maintain a healthy diet, then you're always going to be, you know, at the mercy of the next diet. So I I wonder if we could talk a bit about the this concept of of losing weight without dieting and and how uh the other sort of inputs uh factor into one maintaining their weight and losing it.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah. And I'd love to tell you that it's one thing. No, yeah, of course. But it it never is. Um, you know, it's always a a culmination. And and again, I suppose it's like the methodology. You've got to find, you know, what works for you. Some people, like you said, you know, with the onion recipe, some people like them really crispy ones. Some people like them slightly undercooked. You know, you've got to find the flavour, um, of of behaviour change that works for you. Um, but I I think one of the issues I see with, you know, um, I suppose non-behavioural science-led, um, weight loss programs are that there is an overly, there's an overt focus on the scales. Um, there's an overt focus on achieving a particular number. And as we know from the science, you know, weight loss is never really, um, that linear. Um, you know, when you there are plateaus and there are setbacks and everything else. Um, and so, um, inevitably, if you're overly focused on that outcome alone, um, you're going to feel like a failure sooner or later because there's no way you can ever sustain, um, you know, long-term keep losing weight. Um, and and I don't know, one thing that I think is really important is that actually people look at non-weight loss or non-scale related, um, wins. Um, so the fact that they, you know, learned to make an omelette from scratch or the fact that they, you know, have started going for a walk in the park, um, or the skills that they have developed because those are the things that are going to last with you. It's not the, you know, the weight on the scales becomes arbitrary after a while or becomes another stick to beat yourself with after a while. But when we overly focus on those outcomes, you know, we're quite extrinsically motivated. And I I call extrinsic motivation, slippy motivation. It's the type of motivation that you need like, you know, your friends to say well done or for people to comment on your weight loss or for, um, even your doctor to tell you you're doing well, you know, um, it's not really, it's it's external motivation, you know, it's it's almost that feeling you get when you've been scrolling on Instagram for too long, you know, that kind of icky feeling, like a disconnected feeling. Whereas, um, intrinsic motivation on the other hand is what I I call sticky motivation. And so this is things like, you know, you things that you focus on the process of weight loss. So it's things about like, you know, how exercising more makes you feel more energized, how you've taken back up golf after not playing for years or tennis or whatever it is. How, you know, having a hot water with lemon first thing in the morning makes you feel refreshed and revived. Um, you know, it's it's actually the joys that, um, being healthy, um, brings back. And I I think actually when we focus on what we can add in rather than what we take away when it comes to weight loss, it makes it just actually more a pleasant process as well. Um, because, you know, even, you know, you use the word there regime, you know, and it doesn't have to be a regime. It can be a a routine. Um, but the problem is that we get so focused on that number. And if that number doesn't tell us what we want, you know, does that motivate us to keep going? You know, um, often it doesn't. Often people will kind of step back. There's a really interesting scales that's been developed by a a behavioural designer. And, um, it's actually colour-coded, um, rather than actually having, um, numbers on it. So it just tells people, you know, where they are in a range. Um, and it it's to help people kind of, you know, be able to normalize fluctuations because fluctuations are a normal part of the weight loss process. But it's also, um, you know, to help them stay engaged with their progress, but in a way that they're not fixated on a particular number. A way that they don't hang their self-esteem on a particular number. Because you could have been, you know, eating really healthy foods, really enjoying it, exercising, um, getting really into everything. But if the scales don't tell you the right number, you're like, well, I'm just going to pack it all in, you know, and I'll start again, um, you know, in January or on Monday or whenever, you know, the the deadline you create for yourself is. Um, and so I think it's just really, really important that we kind of start moving away from overly outcomes focused and start working on the process and actually finding and one thing I always tell people is when they start off on a weight loss journey is, um, start with a list of what brings you joy. What where can you find joy in your healthy habits? Because, you know, if you can find joy, then the rest becomes easy. And I think that's a really, really important thing. Um, and both it's it's it's evidence-based as well because we know that those that enjoy the habits are the most. But obviously the habits you enjoy are the habits that you stick to. Um, and that's why, um, at the start as well, we need this experimentation phase. I never like to call it failure because failure is such a valuable part of the process. So we need to experiment just like, you know, um, you do with a recipe, you know, to find, okay, does the parsley go in this frittata or does it taste better with coriander? Um, you know, all of those things to find what works for you. And so we actually need a series of failures at the start to get to ultimately, um, you know, that method in the recipe for our health that works for us.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I I I love that sort of focus on joy and those different elements. It's it's something that I've been very conscious to implement in every aspect actually of the doctor's kitchen, you know, whether it's, um, the the books, uh, the stuff that we talk about on the website, the way in which we conduct, uh, our articles and like the humor that we try to input into there, you know, joy and the flavourful and the deliciousness of food and the celebration aspect of food is something that I kind of want to bring to the forefront. And actually, you you're probably privy to, um, some of this research that came out of, I believe, Stanford and Alicia Crum's group about how if you describe food with the flavourful aspects of it first, that makes it a lot more desirable for someone not, uh, prioritizing health. It might still be a healthy recipe, but if you prioritize the flavourful aspects of it, people are more likely to opt into it and stick to that way of eating, which is something that I've always kind of drilled into the way I do recipes now because I know I shouldn't be leading with the fact that, okay, it's got all these anti-inflammatory chemicals in and, you know, this has been shown to be beneficial for XYZ. It's actually, no, this is going to taste amazing and this is the reason why and it just so happens to be really healthy for you as well.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, exactly. And like, ultimately, isn't that what life's about? It's about finding little joys, you know, that that that actually keep us going day-to-day. And, um, I think health has got a bad rap, you know, and and I I think it's because we're really hard on ourselves about it. Um, we all become overnight perfectionists, you know, as soon as we try and change our our habits. And actually, you know, I like to say habits are for life, not just for January. You know, it's it's it's not like, you know, if you think about a habit we all have, it's just, you know, brushing our teeth in the morning. Um, it's not like we do all our dental hygiene in January and then we're done for the rest of the year. If you're not following, you're no longer following it, you know, it's no longer a habit. But if you're going to adopt these, why not make them, you know, habits that you enjoy, um, and and that bring you joy. And even the habit of actually, um, a succession of habits, but learning to cook different dishes and everything else. Like even just the process of that can be quite a mindful, meditative, enjoyful ritual. But if you're coming at it from the constraint of I have to do this, I should do this. And interesting in the research, they've shown that like have to goals versus want to goals. Um, so if you feel like you have to do something and you use that particular language, you're much more much less likely to carry on. Um, but if you feel like you choose to do something and and and and you're doing it for the joy and the delight it brings you, um, it, you know, it's much more likely you sustain that habit. And it's interesting because we we all do it. Like, you know, think about when you when you join a gym for the first time, you know, you scan the gym floor and you're like, right, what's the hardest, um, you know, piece of equipment that I could use? What's that, um, you know, that bike that's like the assault bike, you know, you're like, okay, right, I'm going to hop in on that. Yeah, you're like, that looks like the hardest or, you know, the step master or whatever. Um, you know, we all, there there's a really interesting study, um, where they looked at, you know, the fact that people tend to go for what they feel like they could benefit from the most rather than actually what they enjoy the most. Um, but those that go for what they enjoy the most tend to be the ones that stick to it. Um, and there's actually while we're talking about Katie Milkman, um, who does a lot of, um, behavioural science work. She has a really funny study that actually would have been a quite a fun one to be part of where they got two groups of women to exercise. Um, and they told one group of women that they're going to do walking, but it's they're walking for fun. It's for recreation, it's for fun. And they told another group of women that they were walking for exercise. Um, and so it was for fitness, it's for exercise. And, um, afterwards, they brought them back and they got them to do a series of questionnaires. And those that were walking, um, for exercise, um, next to the questionnaire, they had this big bowl of M&Ms. Um, and those and they compared those that walk for exercise versus those that walk for fun and how much M&Ms they ate. And those that walk for fun ate significantly less M&Ms than those that walk for exercise. And, you know, they hypothesized that that was due down to the restriction, um, or the kind of deprivation that those that had to walk for fun, you know, or walk for exercise because of the regime, you know, for for fitness, um, that they they felt more deprived and more like they were missing out. So they overcompensated and ate ate more, whereas those that walk for fun, um, you know, ate less because they didn't feel that deprivation. They felt like they chose to do it, um, and they enjoyed it.
Dr Rupy: That's amazing. You know what? I I come across so many of these like behavioural psychology studies and I just think it must be so fun to be a researcher because there are like, you know, these little little hacks of like, oh, you think we're we're testing like, you know, how many miles you've you've walked or like, you know, your your calorie expenditure. But actually, the crux of the the experiment is the number of M&Ms that we just so happened to put right next to your form. Like there's so many little tweaks like that that I've come across in behavioural psychology research. It's brilliant. They they've got such like incredibly creative minds.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, it's hard though. It's very hard to get ethics for some of those things because there's an element of deception. Um, which can often be quite tricky. So you've got to be a real psychologist in terms of how you word word the way around that. Um, but yeah, no, I I absolutely, I get such a buzz from from some of these studies. Um, they're really, really interesting.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I remember actually, um, there was a study, I can't remember the details of it now, but I think the cohorts were being shown, um, some sort of like sad, um, not images, but like sad videos or something. And they had some doughnuts at the back of the room and some of them were stale. And I think like, you know, the number of stale doughnuts consumed correlated with, you know, the emotions that these guys must have been feeling when they were watching this video. And that was actually what they were being tested, but they were deceived into, well, deceived is a bit of a big word, but like they were being told that the the research study was about something else. So, you know, it's those little things that I I just find fascinating.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, they they it's it's kind of actually been a bit, um, controversial at the moment, but, um, there's a Brian Wansink, he does a lot of studies in, um, he he gave people, um, different sized bits of of popcorn when they went to the cinema. And even if it was stale popcorn, if you're eating out of a large popcorn box, people tend to still eat more, no matter if the popcorn is stale. They didn't even seem to notice in a way in the cinema, but it's it's to show that like, you know, when we have those larger portion sizes, it's almost like an optical illusion in a way that we that we overcompensate and eat, um, significantly more, um, than if we had a a smaller, um, size amount. And it's not for enjoyment. That that's just a habitual thing. Um, in terms of actually when we're given larger portions. And so, uh, the argument there was that we need to, you know, have more kind of bite-sized options for people and smaller portions because we actually can't mentally do the the calculations, um, when we get a larger portion size. And it's easier, you know, out of sight, out of mind is is much easier, um, than actually having to rely, like I say, on your willpower, which is, you know, an unreliable resource because as soon as you get an argument or get cranky or don't have enough sleep or, um, get a bit hungry, your willpower is out the window and it's not going to serve you. So, um, yeah, those studies have been quite interesting.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, super fascinating. So you you've talked a a bit about like the academia side and and and how your the arc of your career has sort of uh progressed. And now it's into the digital side. Well, when did you start getting involved in in digital apps and digital uh programs? What when was your sort of like first um uh experience with that?
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, good question. Um, well, actually, in my, as part of my PhD, I did design an app. Um, well, I say I I worked with with the computer, uh, specialist. And he designed the app and I just kind of annoyed him in the background about how he was writing the code. Um, but it was that was my kind of first dabble into it. And what we did was we designed an app to track when people were most tempted and why. Um, and we gave it to people over time and we, uh, you know, sent them notifications, um, throughout the day. Um, and we also got them to, um, fill it in when they did give into temptation. And I thought that was a really interesting way of monitoring, um, people's, uh, engagement, you know, or monitoring, basically tracking people, whereas before, you know, we'd had diaries and people had to write things down and it was very arduous and you had to remember to bring this big thing with you and everything else. Um, whereas like something we all have everywhere we go often is our phone. And I I think that's what's really interesting about, you know, a huge part of, um, behavioural science is context. And now we have this whole new context or environment in our in our lives, which is our phone and and it's always with us. And for for better and for good, you know, and I think for for good in ways that, you know, it's often hard to get, you know, hard to reach patients to self-present for certain interventions. Um, you know, I certainly know that we we ran a nationwide, um, behavioural, um, change intervention for for people with long-term conditions. And you know, one of the biggest barriers was, you know, accessibility, finding a location that was on a good bus route that had enough disabled parking, that, um, you know, was the right time of day that people didn't have to take off work. Um, you know, a lot of people had children, they had to be minded if they went to a particular location, they had to get people to drive them. There were so many barriers, whereas like, I think what's really exciting and interesting about digital health is it breaks down and removes a lot of those barriers. Even the barriers of self-presentation at an intervention, you know, um, you know, showing up and saying, you know, I'm someone that wants to, you know, lose weight, manage my condition better, you know, get fitter or whatever else. Actually, if you've got that in your phone, you're less, obviously self-conscious or self-concerned, um, about it at the same time as well. So, um, yeah, I kind of started working for companies that actually, um, had, um, more of a digital, um, focus in terms of health and wellbeing. Um, and for better and for worse, because, you know, a lot of people kind of pay lip service to behaviour change. They think if they're trying to change a behaviour, then they're using behavioural science, but it isn't always the way. And and and, you know, often people will say, well, it's a weight loss app. And I'll say, well, what's what are the behaviours that you're trying to change? And they're like, oh, we're we're trying to help people lose weight. And I'm like, yeah, but what are the behaviours within that? Um, and often people don't understand, well, what are the behaviours that we need to see? How do we monitor those behaviours? How do we understand those behaviours to get the particular outcomes then that we want? And I know that's where I see a lot of apps fall down. Um, and also, I could go on about this. There's so many other things, but even, you know, with digital programs, people don't realise that you have to make the digital program or app a habit in itself before you even start getting, you know, users, um, to even develop habits within that product. So you have to make, you know, the app or the digital program sticky. So like you said, you know, making it fun, making it colourful, the tone of voice that you use, but also, you know, tapping into people's intrinsic motivation in a supportive way and helping people feel heard and understood and, you know, there's so many elements. I I'll stop there, but you know, I think one of the things it's I think it's a really exciting field. I definitely think it's in its infancy. We don't have enough long-term evidence on the effectiveness. Um, but, um, it's exciting. It's a new way of actually, you know, getting into people's lives in a way that meets them where they're at, causes them less hassle. Um, and I think one thing in behavioural science, there's two big things actually, there's friction and fuel. And and so friction is, you know, anything that kind of gets in the way. Um, and you know, clever digital programs are good at reducing friction. So if we think about a classic one that we might all know is how Netflix does this by pre-loading the next episode. So it reduces the friction to us binge watching. We don't have to go out and go in and, you know, all of that. Um, or even, you know, actually doing, um, digital forms rather than having to go into, you know, our GP's office or the pharmacy to fill them out. Um, can be, you know, can lighten the load for people or even, you know, not having to take a half day off work to go see the doctor face-to-face now that there is, you know, options for digital consults, that can make it more accessible for people maybe that have children or, you know, um, a job that they can't take time off from. Um, so we could we want to always enhance, um, or reduce friction for the behaviours that we want to engage with and almost enhance friction then for the behaviours that we don't want to don't want to um, engage with. So make them harder to do essentially. Like, you know, I've got a thing on my phone, um, that doesn't let me on anything except for, um, work-related stuff, you know, from 9:00 a.m. onwards. Um, you know, and that just, you know, it's just a small barrier. Now I can take it off if I want to or whatever else, but it's just one small barrier, um, that stops me engaging in something that I know is not helpful for me.
Dr Rupy: What what app is that that you use that blocks the uh, I might need to use that.
Dr Heather McKee: It's just actually it's on it's on Samsung. Um, so I've got I've got all sorts and I was trying to voice record this so we had the backup recording and I had to like give myself permission to use this app while I'm in this function. And it it knocks me right off. So like I have it on from 9:00 until, um, 6:00 and then it comes back on at 9:00 p.m. again so that I don't engage with my phone at night. But it literally will knock you off the app. So you could be halfway through a text message to your mom and you'll be gone. Um, but uh, but it's it's it's useful because it basically, you know, I'd have to use willpower to stay off my phone. And phones are very, um, sticky products. They're very addictive, um, you know, for better and for worse. And so it actually just is a is another way, another nudge to actually say, come on, Heather, like, you know, enough's enough. And now it's time to get back into the real world. Um, so it can be quite helpful. Um, I mentioned there friction, but there's also fuel as well. And I think fuel is really important to think about. And, um, you know, people often talk about motivation and you know, we need lots of motivation. It's not really about how much motivation we need, it's more about what fuels that motivation. And I know we talked about intrinsic motivation there, you know, the sticky motivation, the motivation that's like internal, it's from you, you know, it's that being healthier and what it gives you back in life, you know, for for my self-management patients, it was, you know, that they were able to walk to get the bus, like walk to the bus stop. So then, you know, the whole world was open to them then. Um, or they were able to, you know, play football in the garden with their grandson or, um, you know, it was it was instead of exercise feeling like a fearful and a really kind of regimented thing, it was about, you know, when we started to reframe it for them about what it gave them back, um, that really, really helped fuel their motivation, um, in a in a positive way. Um, and there's ways we can do that within digital products as well, um, which is quite exciting. Um, and a lot of that is around, um, I I I'm quite, um, enamoured with self-determination theory, um, which is the theory of, um, motivation, which I I I'm sure you've heard about, but, um, there's, yeah, over 40 years of research showing that, you know, it's it's a really effective way, um, in which to support long-term engagement. And, um, and what I mean by that is, um, self-determination theory is just a theory of motivation. But essentially the fuel of motivation. Um, and there is it it says that each individual, each person is fueled by kind of three basic needs. And those needs are autonomy, competence, and relatedness. So autonomy being that we want to have ownership, we want to have freedom in our choices. Um, competence being that we want to feel confident, um, in our competence or our ability to do things. We want to feel like we're progressing and we're getting better. And then there's relatedness that we want to feel part of something that's bigger than themselves, part of, um, part of, you know, um, a community. And and and when we enhance these needs or when these needs are fully met, then individuals can thrive. And they've shown that time and time again. Um, and they've shown in terms of lifestyle habits, if we can enhance these needs, then we're much more likely to sustain those lifestyle habits over time. And someone is much more likely to be intrinsically motivated, much more likely to enjoy the behaviours that they're carrying out. Um, but there's multiple ways we can do that within digital products as well, which is quite exciting. Um, which I can speak to if it's something that's interesting.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, as you were talking about a number of different things I want to touch on. Uh, self-determination theory, you you think about it and you can see some of the best digital products out there really leaning into that in into those different facets. So autonomy, you know, you're on your own journey through the app, you know, you choose which path you want to go down. Uh, the the competency and actually reinforcing that. So, you know, when you when you get badges and you get sort of like, uh, uh, reaffirmed that you are progressing, uh, and you're actually collecting skills. And then the relatedness, you know, the little feature about how many people are also using the app or how many people, you know, on Wordle, for example, very, very interesting, uh, feature, um, that this, uh, this five-letter word game that went viral during lockdown, is the number of people who took X number of tries to get, uh, the word today. And you might be, you know, above average or below average or, you know, part of the the the mode, uh, the number of people, um, uh, that that took to get to that particular letter. You know, that kind of reaffirms like, oh, I'm not just playing this game in isolation. I'm actually part of a community of Wordlers or whatever they call themselves. And then the the other elements that I I really enjoyed you talking about were the friction and fuel. So you can see some of the apps, uh, particularly in the social media space, really pushing both of these in in ways like reducing friction, you know, straight away, you're in the search page whenever you open up a social media page. Fuel, you know, likes, really good fuel, you know, it just taps into that dopamine fuel pathway. Uh, the the follower count, the commenting, all that kind of stuff. These are all like mini peps of fuel, you know, if you think about like, um, Mario, you know, he's collecting those like flower powers and he just like goes like double speed, you know, all that all that kind of stuff. You you can really tell, um, how certain, uh, digital apps are are using, uh, uh, fuelers. Um, and and there's ways in which we can learn from that as well. I think, I think social media obviously has got a bad rep, but if you if you learn and you actually like dive into what kind of triggers they're using, you can also use that for good as well to enhance positive behaviours. And and the whole element of the the digital environment, you know, is clearly accelerated by COVID. No longer was it an opt-in to use telemedicine, you had to use telemedicine. We just don't see your general practitioner or you don't see your consultant. I think it's really sort of, um, accelerated what what is likely to have been inevitable anyway, um, which I think is a is a good thing. And there there are even some examples pre-pandemic of countries with poor healthcare infrastructures that have sort of leapfrogged using telemedicine. So there's an example in Rwanda where, um, a telemedicine company essentially, uh, allowed an an increased distribution of doctors per capita by basically leaning into digital phones because everyone all of a sudden had mobile devices, smartphones, and they can now see their GPs, whereas before, pre that telemedicine era, we would have had to pop up multiple healthcare centers, which obviously has distribution costs, it has, you know, everything that's, uh, uh, uh, an issue when it comes to creating healthcare centers in, uh, deprived areas. So, and and that's another reason why I decided to go into the doctor's kitchen app world because I really wanted to enter into that digital sphere that I think is going to be so important because no longer is it a case of us having to compete with junk food stores on the high street, it's also competing with junk food stores that you can order food from at the touch of a button on your delivery app. So, you know, me moving into this space was sort of like a natural direction because it's just the way people are going to be going.
Dr Heather McKee: I think that's a really interesting, um, even what you mentioned there about the apps is about, they call it in behavioural science, choice architecture. Um, so how do we, um, you know, uh, change the environment? And even, you know, our phones in themselves are a micro environment. Um, you know, we can put out our our trainers last thing at night and we can have, you know, our our gym kit out and and everything, you know, and or the book that we want to read in an obvious position. But we can also do the same with our phones. Like, you know, like we were talking about, I have, um, things, different modes that switch automatically so I'm not on certain apps. But it's also about, I often encourage people to do a bit of an audit, um, of their of their phone environment. You know, when you open your homepage, what are the first apps you see? What are the first notifications you see? Are they aligned with what your goals are right now in life? So, for example, you know, if you're trying to meditate more, are your notifications around meditation? Are, you know, you're getting quotes about, um, how to stay calm? Are you've got getting alerts or or calendar invites for different times of day when you can actually take a breath? Um, and or are the things that are alerting you, things that are actually taking you away from the things that matter most to you, like, you know, staying in a positive head space and everything else. So I would say to everyone listening, um, you know, take a look at your your phone right now. What are the notifications you're receiving? What is on your homepage? Um, because, you know, it's proximity determines the choices to which we engage with, you know. There's interesting, um, studies that show, you know, the further away they move a bowl of M&Ms, the less likely we are to eat more of them. But the closer they are, the more likely we are. And like you say, you know, if you're getting all these delivery app messages around, you know, foods that are unhealthy and you're trying to, you know, eat a healthier diet, um, then, you know, it's it's it's time that you you spend just five minutes going in and working out how to take those notifications off and moving what's most important to you to your home screen. Um, and like you say now, you know, Doctor's Kitchen is offering us another option in that environment. And actually one thing that I really like about the app, um, is that you you talk about some of these environmental barriers in it. You know, you break them down in terms of like, this is freezer friendly, this, um, recipe only takes X amount of minutes. You know, these are the things like so I have an injury at the moment and so I need to know that I can make something in less than 15 minutes. Um, I need to know that I can make it for one and I know that it's got a really cool thing that you can make it for one to as many people as you want, um, all at once. But like, you know, these are all little environmental, um, friction things, um, that actually when you remove them and adds positive fuel. Um, but I think what you said is, you know, coming to the digital space and being in the digital space and being a support there in people's pockets is really, really important now because that's the exposure that we have day in, day out. That's what we're consuming. And if we think about if you are what you eat, you know, be careful of your media diet because, you know, that is what we're consuming now way more than than anything else. And so let's let that be something that actually supports rather than thwarts our goals.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. I'm really glad you picked up on some of those uh features because prior to launching the app in January of this year, 2022, um, we had done extensive research with our community members via the newsletter. We brought people into the studio, we we did questionnaires. This is actually pre-pandemic. Um, it's been going on for a little while now. And one of the questionnaires that we sent out was a long questionnaire, it was about a 30 question uh questionnaire survey, and we had 4,000 responses. And we asked them specifically about their particular health barriers. So what barriers to healthy eating they um uh they isolated. And obviously I went through every single one. We had some choices, but we had the other where people could could go into their personal reasons. And a lot of people struggle because of fatigue, because of a particular chronic condition, uh because of injuries sometimes, um, you know, to to actually cook a meal that's longer than 20, 30 minutes. And so one of the things that I wanted to make sure was that we had meals that were no or low cook. So actually required uh minimal cooking time, which I think is also very important in the context of the cost of living crisis. But also no chop because a lot of people actually said they didn't have the culinary skills. And so I wanted to create like a whole category of recipes where it's literally like, okay, paste goes in, uh these ingredients I can just tear with my hands, that goes in, and then like, you know, a bag of of spinach washed, that goes in. So literally like no sort of uh need for a chef's knife because there is definitely a need for that. And I think that's a really good entry point for people who ultimately might want to, you know, learn the skills and the basics of of chopping and all the rest of it. But also, you know, uh starting, we're starting at their sort of uh level.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, or if you've got kids around and you don't want to be wielding a knife, you know. And even when you said that to me, it made me smile because actually, like, yeah, I get really bad back pain. So often it's it's often triggered by chopping. So actually having the no chop option like that, you you don't even realize, you know, it's helping so many people in in different ways.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, totally. And and as you were talking about, um, choice architecture on on my personal phone, um, so I have my, uh, my email and my diary, uh, two apps that I use religiously. My diary basically just runs my life, my my Google calendar. Um, those are on the home pages along with a couple of other things like my podcast, my podcast app and uh my audible subscription because I know that these are things that like I allow myself to sort of indulge in uh when I'm commuting and all the rest of it. And the social media apps are literally on like the third or fourth page. So even though it's a little, you know, it's just a few flicks of your finger, but it's that little friction that, you know, just reminds me, oh, I'm I'm going to, you know, potentially go into a social media like time zone here where I'm just going to be sucked into the app. So it's that that little sort of choice architecture that I've instigated on my phone that I think is is really helpful for me and it might might be helpful for other people too.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, and I think I think that's so important. Any of those kind of, yeah, frictions you can you can add in. It's it's kind of almost like, you know, when you're too hungry and you just open the cupboard and you're like looking around for something to have versus when you've got a healthy snack prepared and it's ready to go. You know, um, it it's it's just a way of keeping you on track with what's important to you. Um, and I think that's really, really important. And I think it's important that we do step back and even, you know, within our social media, when we think about, you know, what are the goals that I wish to create this year? So say you're, you know, you're starting a new business or, um, you're going back to university, you know, who are the people then that you can follow that are going to expose you in a way that's going to positively, um, reinforce that goal. And, you know, that while they might be kind of subliminal or non-conscious messages, through repetition, um, you know, they do, um, you know, help you form opinions and form values and and a lot of things. And we wouldn't, we don't really give enough credit to how much our non-conscious mind absorbs as well. Um, and so, you know, it can it can be a force for good in that way, um, that actually can help reinforce our goals. I know, um, certain elements, you know, you can follow certain researchers, like, you know, it's like me and you, um, that love like, you know, to find out the new papers and and everything. And and it can get you exposed to things that maybe you would have missed, um, before. So it can be quite positive. But I love what you say about, yeah, like having the apps on a different page or in a particular folder, or even, you know, if you want to take it to the next level, being conscious of your consumption of them and saying, well, this is my time of day that I use this. Um, you know, and and actually I've I've I've got this this three-hour window where I engage with this and, you know, I can go to town in this time, um, but the rest of the day is when I focus on other things that are important to me.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I I thought it might be fun to do some, uh, some live workshopping for for the app as it is. So, you know, we're we've got, um, you know, a few things that we have created on the basis of where people struggle with with healthy eating because the whole goal of the of the app is to help people eat well consistently. And so within that, you know, going further up, upstream, what are the behaviours that we need to try and encourage to allow people to achieve that goal of eating well consistently for the downstream, uh, goals of like preventing, uh, conditions, maybe even supporting conditions, all the other sort of health goals that we have within that. And so, you know, we've done some categories, the no chop, the low cooking, uh, we're also doing one with leftovers. Um, we are doing one with less than five ingredients. We have a cost one as well that we're we're working on at the moment for less than a pound of portion. So there's definitely certain categories that we can sort of isolate. But I think like thinking about the app wider, you know, we're currently just a a library of recipes that you can filter according to dietaries, allergens, um, to make it more accessible for your family members and all the rest of it. And the ultimate aim is to integrate it with with supermarkets, um, that we're actively working on so you can create a quick meal plan in a couple of clicks, uh, and then it integrates with supermarkets. So it's akin to a digital, uh, meal kit, but at the convenience and the price of a normal supermarket shop. Removing friction. Removing friction completely. And then ultimately, you know, I'd love to get to the point where we partner with vetted, uh, cloud kitchens that we know can prepare the food to our standards and using like really high quality ingredients that can be delivered to your door when you want it because let's face it, everyone experiences times in their week where they can't be bothered to cook and, you know, the default option is to go for a takeaway because that's going to be the quickest and the easiest. We want to make sure that there is also a quick, easy option for healthy food as well. So that's sort of like, you know, blue sky thinking down the down the road. But in terms of like creating those,
Dr Heather McKee: Isn't it crazy that that's blue sky thinking in a way because like, sorry to interrupt, but like, you know, that it's crazy to even conceive that we could get healthy food quickly. You know, you know, like it's like, why why is that crazy? And and that's something that we need to address in like, you know, I I commend you in in that goal. Um, and I don't mean to laugh about it, but it's it's it's, you know, that should be something that is available to us all. Um, so, you know, it's exciting that we're getting there, but isn't it crazy that that's so inaccessible to us even in this day and age?
Dr Rupy: 100%, right? And I and I really feel that at some point in the future, they will be heavily subsidized as well because if we can demonstrate the cost effectiveness of providing a cheaper option than the junk food options, and we can demonstrate that people are more likely to opt in because they are price sensitive and they enjoy that food, um, and it's more and more convenient, then yeah, I I I definitely see it, you know, something that could be rolled out on a on a grand scale. And I really hope we get to that point, but it's going to take uh a lot of lobbying, I think, in that respect. Um, but yeah, so in terms of like, you know, we're going to have like a basic section where we we teach you the basics of, you know, how to chop onions and and how to make your spring greens and how to use leftovers and that kind of stuff. But in terms of like, you know, other elements of, uh, behaviour change that we can instill in an app, um, such as ours, as we're thinking about other areas. What what are the the areas you think that we should be learning perhaps from other apps and and maybe instigating, uh, in our in our own?
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, great question. Um, and I think you you alluded to it earlier and you gave some amazing examples of, um, you know, I would start even from the platform of creating an app around autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And I know you do, you touch on a lot of these things, um, within the app. But as a starting point, I'd almost, you know, potentially in the onboarding process or, um, when people first come in, but I'd really want to understand what are and you might have this through your user testing, but what are people's motives for engaging in the first place? You know, what does it give them back in their life? What is their why behind using it? Um, because if people can see how it delivers to them, how it gives them back, you know, more freedom, more time, more energy, um, you know, more focus, um, you know, better long-term health, be able to, you know, if I'm to be really crude about it, like be able to stick around long enough to see your your children get married, you know, what whatever it is, if if we can kind of look at, you know, what this gives someone back, um, then I think it's a really, really important, um, place to get started from that people can then make choices that are meaningful for them. So they can really understand and it can be a question about, it can just be as simple as asking people, you know, why is it important for you to to use this app? Um, and and even just someone going through that exercise alone, um, can really help evoke, you know, and sometimes it can take five whys, you know, if you say to someone like, I want to get fit, for example. Well, why do you want to get fitter? Um, oh, I want to get fitter because I, um, I'm at this step challenge at work and I want to get 10,000 steps a day. And why do you want to get 10 to enjoy this step challenge? Oh, because, you know, I want to get more energy. And oh, why do you want more energy? Um, well, you know, I've, you know, I find it hard to kind of go through the full day at work and then look after the kids in the evening. I'd like to have more for them in the evening. Um, and why does that matter to you? Okay, well, being a positive role model to my children is important to me. And if you ask yourself why enough times, you know, it is irritating. Um, but, you know, you can get to that true root and that's the intrinsic motivation. That's the flame, that's the ignition, that's what's going to really keep that fire going, keep that fuel going for you long term. It's not that, you know, so and so told you to do to eat healthy. It's not that, you know, it's Mary down the road is doing it, so you feel like you need to do it too. It's actually what it gives you back in your life. And if you can create that from the get-go and understand that, um, that's a really important, um, place to start from. And then you can start making meaningful choices and you can see, and I know that you've got all the the categories, you know, the brain health and the anti-inflammatory. So you can see that actually these are meaningful foods to engage with. Um, another another key part and, um, we're tapping into the competence piece is what are the barriers? So what's going to get in the way of you actually, um, using this app? Um, is it, you know, the position on your home screen? Is it the notifications or is it that, you know, you might set and forget it? And so, you know, it's important to actually support users to make it easier to engage with your app. And like I said, you know, one of the primary things that's really important with an app is making using the app a habit itself. So it might be asking people, you know, when and where is it best for you to use this app? And can we support you with notifications around that? Is that something that would be helpful for you? Always asking and making it optional for people, always offering an emergency exit for people because we never want to force or coerce people into anything because that's not autonomous in nature. Um, and so asking people, you know, like, so for example, it might be, oh, I'd love to get a notification at 6 o'clock which what is your your newest dinner recipe or on a Sunday afternoon, I might want to learn more about the batch what I can batch cook for this week or before I do my shopping on a Thursday, I'd love, you know, the top five recipes that were people have been using this week. Um, or whatever it is, it's just bringing it to where people are at and making it easier for them to make the healthier choice. Um, and so understanding, like you've done the work already, understanding what those barriers are and constantly looking at breaking those down. Um, I just did an exercise with people on my newsletter this week, which I I was asking them to make a friction list and make a fuel list. You know, think about a behaviour that you're wishing to change right now. Um, say, you know, you want to get more into healthy eating, what are, you know, all the friction points? What are all the barriers that are getting in the way right now? And then from that list, pick the easiest one and execute on that first and then start to knock off week by week all of those. And at the same time, look at the fuel, what helps you engage more? Is it, you know, getting new recipes, having that variety? And what we know from behavioural science is actually variety and novelty is very engaging for people. You know, unfortunately, that's why the gambling industry does so well because they've got that variability. They often use that very well in, um, like you said, in social media apps when you open them up, you often open them up on the explorer tab. So you're you're immediately getting that variety, you're getting that novelty. And users enjoy that. We all don't we we don't want things to be too predictable. Um, we do like a little bit of, um, surprise and delight. Um, and I think that's important. And also, it also challenges competence over time as well, because if once we kind of get competent at, you know, creating certain recipes, we're like, okay, I'm ready for the next challenge, you know, hit me with the the knife skills or, um, you know, how to make something a little bit more complex because I'm I'm ready. And and you can even frame that, um, in a way in your app as well. So you can frame, you know, those kind of, um, master chef, um, style, you know, um, recipes maybe that require a little bit more time, might require a little bit more skills, but it's it's a way to learn a new skill. Um, uh, that's certainly from from a competence point of view, I think it's very important to like you've done already, like look at those key barriers and keep looking at those, but also asking people, well, what's going to get in the way the most for you and how do we overcome that? Rather than it being kind of all or nothing. So, you know, a common example is, you know, we're we're trying to create a running habit and we go to go outside and it's raining. And we're like, oh, well, I can't run today. But like, you know, you live in the UK, you know, it's going to rain, you know. So what's the alternative? You know, do you have a like strength and conditioning for runners workout that you do on your phone on an app at that time? Or do you always, you know, is your default to rearrange it for, um, you know, the next morning with a friend? But, you know, we need to have and and they call them in the science, you know, implementation intentions. Um, so we need to have plans in place because we are going to fail, we're not going to follow through because we're human beings, we're free-range human beings, you know, we're not rational, rational beings at all. And so we need to have plans for for failure. And so if we can use an app, um, and use digital device to support that we're going to fail, but to support bringing things to us when and where matters most to us, when and where is going to be most effective for us, it means that it will be much more likely that your app will actually support us in engaging with their goals more frequently and therefore more likely to create habits around it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that that's such good advice about, you know, advice uh for or or methods of how to get back on track because failure is inevitable and failure is something that we need to sort of embrace as well. I think you can really employ a growth mindset when it comes to failure, whatever you describe as failure. Um, I I wonder if uh there are apps that you've come across, not necessarily in the healthy eating space and maybe not even in the sort of uh lifestyle space that you look at and you're like, that is genius. That is really like everything that I think my research and my my my experience has has sort of uh dictated would work very well and it, you know, clearly it it it does something, whether it's a feature or a sweet of features. What what things do you think uh that you've come across that that you you really like?
Dr Heather McKee: Great question. Um, I there's an app, now, I I haven't found the perfect app as of yet. Um, but that that's good because we're all a work in progress. So there's always work to do and we're we're still learning from a behavioural design point of view. It's not like, you know, more behaviour change suddenly will will make everyone stick to their habits as well. You've got to test and iterate within your own app to see what, you know, your audience, what works best for them. Um, I would say I really like the, um, the Fabulous app. I don't know if you've if you've seen that one. It's it comes out of, um, I think it's Duke University that are behind it. Um, I there's it's not flawless, um, but there's definitely a lot to love about it. And and what I love about it is that it it takes people on a journey. Um, and it shows them that, you know, behavioural change, whatever habit that you wish to change, it isn't just about the particular outcomes, it's about going on a journey, learning more about yourself, you know, learning what your likes and dislikes are, learning, you know, how you operate in the context of your life. They also use really affirming language, um, which I think is really important. I know a lot of apps use praise often. So they're saying like, well done or a good job. And we've all had that teacher or that coach that's been constantly like, well done, good job, but it doesn't feel as meaningful as maybe when someone stops and says, you know, you've really persisted with this or, you know, you've shown your commitment here or you're a very dedicated person. You know, someone that sees your strengths, um, can really then evoke that intrinsic motivation in you rather than just kind of surface level praise. Um, and I know that they certainly do that with the Fabulous app, you know, they're they're all about actually affirming you as an individual, um, and showing you that, you know, behaviour change is not something that happens overnight. It's a lifelong process and it is a journey and it has ups and downs and, um, you know, highs and lows. And I I think that's very, very important that people come into any habit change with that mindset of, you know, this is a lifelong practice. So let's make it an enjoyable one. And they certainly make it fun and enjoyable. And even to the point where, um, you know, I looked at what their process was for quitting the app. Um, and you know, what what language they used around that. And and they they they it was a really uh quite interesting and they said like, you know, we're sorry to see you go. Um, I hope it wasn't any mistake. I'm I'm paraphrasing now. I probably got this all wrong, but this is the kind of, um, this is the the feeling that it gave me. They were like, we're sorry to see you go. We hope it wasn't any mistake on our side, but if we did, you know, we'd be happy to open up a conversation with a behavioural scientist around, you know, what were the reasons that you you wish to leave. Um, and then they presented some research on, um, on, you know, leaving, um, and quitting and and, you know, um, and then re-engaging and how helpful that is. And I just thought it was really interesting, um, way of actually being really like, you know, um, candid about the fact that, you know, it's it's completely your your option to leave, but we'd love to understand more about why. And it shows that they're interested in the long-term, um, effectiveness of the program as well. Um, and I think that's such an important part. It's like, and I think you touched on a little bit there as well. It relatedness has to be done very subtly and in a way that actually is related to what the community wants, rather than just creating forums, um, that are people aren't subscribing to or there might be one or two people that are really engaged with it, but it's not actually, um, supporting the rest of the community. Relatedness has to be done in a way that's actually going to be, just not a box ticking exercise, that it actually is beneficial. And I love that you actually haven't got a structured plan because you're like, right, well, let's put it out to the community and see what people respond to and what they want to engage with and what they're going to derive value from because otherwise, what's the point in having it if they're not going to derive value? And another point on that in terms of apps is relatedness isn't just your community, but it's also how you communicate through your app as well, you know, your tone of voice, how accessible your pictures are, how accessible your language is, um, you know, how you talk about it as well, um, for people, how you tell them about the value and the benefits that it has, all of that, um, as well as helping people feel seen and heard, um, like you have through the research, um, and and continuing collecting that data as well, um, is a really important part of creating relatedness in in a digital world.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. The the community element that we're trying to instill within the app and also within the newsletter as well is something that we've been toying around with. So for the last book, the one that's coming out in January 23, um, we reached out to our community members, um, and we had like a crazy response, something like 1500 people. And we asked, uh, we asked everyone like, you know, do you want to help out with the next book and try out some of the recipes before we go to refine them, shoot them and put them in the book. Um, and we had this crazy response like, yeah, yeah, definitely. And so we had to, you know, collect all their dietaries, send them each individually a a recipe. It was almost like a technical challenge, but with the methodology. So no images, no, uh, sort of like, uh, direct tips or anything, just like, these are the ingredients, this is the methodology, and fill out this questionnaire afterwards. And it goes through, you know, accuracy of the ingredients, the timing, the prep, any other thoughts, all this stuff. And we had honestly, like over a thousand responses that I personally went through every single one to to review. And a lot of people loved that process. They loved being part of it. And they want to do it again. And so this is sort of one of the things that we're trying to instill within the the doctor's kitchen newsletter community. It's it's more than just you get a an email passively into your email box. Huh, that's quite interesting. Oh, yes, I've got a recipe. I'll make that this weekend or this week. And, you know, I can't wait for next week's. It's like, no, I want you to sort of join the community of like this incredible group of foodies who love food and they love healthy lifestyle and they love all the other elements that we like talking about within the newsletter. And I want you guys to meet. Um, and so we're we're figuring out how to to do this, you know, whether it's a a Facebook private group, whether it's a discord, whether it's a, uh, a slack group, like, I mean, I I have thoughts about, uh, groups in in general and I just want to make it as frictionless as possible for people to join. Um, but we want to add that kind of element for the for the app as well. So we can release like, you know, recipes that we're testing or categories that we want to introduce. Can we get live feedback from people like, oh, you know what, I'd really like to have a whole category on cauliflower and actually, you know, hundreds of other people or a thousand other people also struggle with the same ingredient or the same issues with, uh, cooking for families at home, that kind of stuff. So really being part of that live conversation that we can react to rather than, you know, this didactic, okay, we've got another category now. Um, try it out, let us know what you think individually. Like, I think there is a way to make it a lot more collective and enriching the whole sort of app experience in in that way.
Dr Heather McKee: Yeah, I absolutely love that. I think I every good app I've seen is embedded with co-creation, um, like yours. And it's it's not just about you creating everything. It's actually about your community contributing. Um, you know, people like like you say, like telling you their barriers. So then you're like, right, let's work together. Who's found a way to kind of overcome, you know, who's found a way to make a lasagna healthier, um, but also, you know, created in less than 20 minutes. Um, you know, what other vegetables have other people? It actually one thing I really like about the, um, the app is, you know, if you don't have a cucumber, you offer me other vegetables that I could, you know, use instead of it. Um, and like you say, you know, things that people are struggling with, actually like crowdsourcing that from the community, um, is so, so important to actually using them to drive the content and and to actually help them support others is is the best way really to create that feeling of you're part of something bigger than your own yourself. And and create a sense of purpose and identity around it. You know, I'm someone who uses, I don't know if you've got like a, uh, kitchenites, I don't know, doctor's kitchenites. I don't have a word for them, no. You know, you're you're a tribe that there are people that, you know, really relate with you and and to you and all the work that you've done and they they want to learn from you, but they also want to share themselves as they grow. And it's a huge part of, um, the learning process as well, being able to share back and get feedback like that and, you know, trying new things. So, um, yeah, that's such an important part.
Dr Rupy: I'm really enjoying this conversation. It's it's been brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing your your time again with us, uh, Heather. Um, we'll definitely do a call out to all your socials and where corporates can reach out to you because, um, uh, I think, uh, you would be a wonderful addition to, uh, employee wellbeing and, uh, and everything else you talked about today. So thank you so much. It's been brilliant.
Dr Heather McKee: Thank you so much. I've learned so much as well myself. So, well, thanks for your time.
