Pam Warhurst: If all you can do is grow herbs, then grow herbs and make great pesto. But the point is, connect with something growing that is edible and then create something you can share. That's the key, because that starts to open up a conversation with other people and that makes you feel better and it makes you feel more confident. And suddenly you start to see there's lots of people like you.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: You're in for an amazing ride with Pam Warhurst CBE. If you don't know her from the classic TED talk, how we can eat our landscapes, please do give it a watch. I've put the link in the caption wherever you're listening to this on your podcast player. It raises the hairs on the back of my neck every time I listen to it. Because Pam is literally the most inspiring, enthusiastic and engaging speaker I know. And wow, she knows how to start a revolution through conversation. Pam has believed in the potential of the individual to work with others towards a kinder future for all for many, many years. And as co-founder of Incredible Edible, which is an international initiative that began in Northern England, she uses the Trojan horse of local food growing to demonstrate the power of small actions in bringing about major cultural shifts. And this is what today's podcast is all about. So by growing food locally on unused land, sharing the food skills that exist across the community and supporting local sticky money economies, the Incredible Edible movement has demonstrated that citizens activism moves people from bystanders into local investors of time and resource. And what started in a working-class market town called Todmorden has now sprung activism across the globe. And I really hope Pam's story inspires you to A, consider growing in your local community, of course, and B, start a revolution yourself. If there's something that you're passionate about or want to change, let Pam inspire you with her own words. This is an excerpt from the book, Seeds to Solutions, that I highly recommend everyone get. It's a non-profit book, all the money gets invested back into this kick. We the people could lead the way. We could stop being done to and start doing. We could stop waiting for those leaders to be brave and get on creating that kinder future for ourselves. I could listen to Pam all day long. You can listen to her talk, the link is in the show notes. Get involved with Incredible Edible at incredibleedible.org.uk. And this week's podcast recipe of the week are for my easy Jersey Royal traybake. Jersey Royals are in season at the moment in the UK and you can find it on the website at thedoctorskitchen.com, plus hundreds more on the app. The link is also in the show notes. Without further ado, this is my conversation with Pam.
Dr Rupy: First of all, I want to say thank you because I spoke to you before I did my TED talk. It seems like, I mean, it is a long time ago, it was 2019, so it was a couple of years ago now, but I remember that one of the last times we spoke was just before I was doing my TED talk and I was freaking out and you were so helpful. You said, I think the last thing you said to me was, Rupy, just go out and rock them.
Pam Warhurst: Yeah, exactly. Well, and you will have done, and you will have done, and it's so lovely to see you. It's great, you know, when you've got something like this that you're passionate about, people come and they go and then you meet up and you do things and then you don't see other for, but we're always on the same page and that's why it's a pleasure beyond words to be here with you today.
Dr Rupy: Oh my god, the pleasure is all mine, Pam. I'm so excited to introduce you to the audience of people because I know our listeners are going to absolutely dig your vibe and just be inspired by what you've been able to create through the power of community. So why don't you introduce us to the world of Incredible Edible Pam and and yeah, give us give us a steer as to how you've got to where you are today and where we're moving.
Pam Warhurst: Okay. Oh, well, 14 years crammed into an hour and a half. No, I'm only kidding. So I'm Pam. I'm, you know, I'm a 70-year-old plus mum, and the main reason I do what I do is because I think we need to nurture our children. I think we need to do more to give them better lives in the future. And I think food is the no-brainer intro to living well and prospering in a challenging world that is nevertheless a fantastic world. So 14 years ago, made up Incredible Edible because I could just see that we were creating problems for the next generation as well as our own, and we were walking into a nightmare. And we had not only the climate side of the nightmare, but we had the health side of the nightmare. We had a misuse of resources because we're forever mopping up after people, not helping people be healthier in the first place. I mean, if COVID has taught us anything, we were on the right page. So how could we actually do stuff without waiting for someone else to do it to us? Because I think we all have gifts and we all have the ability to build something kind for our families, our neighbours and our communities and say, well, this is what I'm doing, why don't you have a crack at it? You know? I think we've become too used to waiting for someone else to do it or having a great big whacking check come through the door when all we're talking about is giving people the right to get their hands on good food that they've created themselves, that they know what to do with and that, you know, they prosper as a result of that. So that was what we did 14 years ago. It was a bit of climate change, it was a bit of health, it was a bit about nurturing your own communities, but basically it's all about a kind of tomorrow, really. And it's many aspects. And so it was just an attempt for ordinary folks without any permission or checks or particular qualifications to demonstrate how through food they could reconnect, they could rethink about food, they could think about what was important in the environment, and that would then give them the opportunity to say what they didn't want. But it wasn't a movement based on negativity, it was a positive movement about this is what we want. If you want to come and join us, come and join us. So that's what we did. And we we dug up public places and some of them were crazy, like cemeteries, and some of them were in front of the police station, and some of them were in front of people's private gardens, but they knew about it. So like we didn't put the balaclavas on in the middle of the night. And and and we started in the town that we lived in. You know, we had people in a cafe, said, do you want to use food? Can we do stuff together? What do you think? And that's where the model of the three plates came in, because this is not a movement that's got a hierarchy or bureaucracy or anything else. It's about people waking up and saying, I can do this. Food, I can get this. But you kind of need a little bit of a blueprint, you know, to see who else is in the movement with you. So the three plates were simple. It was how do we use local food to redefine our communities in an edible sense, so that we walk past food day in, day out, we think about seasonality, we think about biodiversity, we think about what the heck is that thing I didn't know Brussels sprouts grew like that, or whatever it was, because we've been used to seeing things in plastic bags flown all over the world. So it was let's make edible towns and villages. And then it was, let's remember folks don't know how to do that. And if they don't know how to cook, why the bother growing? So let's rack up in the street and cook for folks with seasonal food, really simple stuff that anybody can do, not rocket science. And so that was and and and what else did we need? Well, you know, I went to a lot of communities where there were ex-miners who knew how to grow tomatoes and potatoes like nobody's business, but nobody'd ever asked them to share their skills. You know, I've been into places where, you know, you assume that because people are from the poorer end of the spectrum, they don't know how to make good food. Well, they do. If anybody needs, you know, knows how to make good food grow further, go and ask some of the older generation who had to do it. And that's how they brought up. So let's talk to each other in our communities about food. And once we start doing that, then the third plate comes into action, which is, you know, our kids could be the next generation of, you know, Jamie Olivers or or Rupy. They could be the generation of you guys. They could be, you know, our kids could say, I don't have to do it like they used to do it. I don't have to sit in an office doing mindless things. I could actually do really exciting stuff every day of my life using food. So that's incredible edible. That's all it is. It's a story about ordinary folks mixing it up with local food.
Dr Rupy: It's an incredible story. It is incredible story. It is so inspiring. I remember the very first time I met you in person and saw you online and stuff, the energy is just tangible. But what I want to know a bit more about, Pam, is where did that energy come from? I know the turning point was, I think when you saw a lecture from Professor Tim Lang, but where where did that drive for food come from? Because that must have been prior to that. It must have, you know, you don't wake up in the morning and become Pam Warhurst, the one that we see on our screens and listen to now. Like, there has got to be something else driving that because every town needs a Pam to push this forward, I believe.
Pam Warhurst: It is about having people who've been around a few blocks, as well as young people who challenge what you do, because the whole point about this is to is to mix it up with the ages, because I think like I think. And I haven't got, so and that's fine to start with a 10, but it ain't where you need to get to. I need the 16, 17, 18 year olds, I need the 30 year olds, I need, you know, we all need to talk to each other and respect each other. And so where did it come from? Well, it came from two things, really. It came from the fact that when it comes to food, I'm just a ordinary working class, red brick, northern, you can tell from the accent, person, right? Um, but for donkey's years, I chaired a whole food co-op. Um, so I kind of, um, really got an interest in in looking at what you can do with a variety of different foods, dried or or fresh. Did that forever. And um, and a passionate cook. I love cooking. You know, and my daughter, thank the Lord, has picked that that up from me and is now is doing. There's nothing better than cooking and making, seeing people smile. Yeah. You know, when you present them with something, there's nothing better and it it is the underpinning of so many conversations, isn't it? Absolutely. So that's why food, because I I just love it. I love tasting it. I love cooking it. I've learned how to grow it. I didn't start this as a grower. You know and I know I was rubbish at it. But after this number of years, you have to be able to grow something or else you might as well stop. So if I can do it, anybody can do it. But it was it was the cooking, it was the excitement, it was the variety or it was the imagination needed to produce something with not a right lot. You know, and and I am old enough to remember and have aunties and the like who in the war, you know, would would kind of pal up with their other neighbours who would get, you know, breast of lamb or cheap cuts or whatever and together they create two family meals out of it, you know, and Yeah. When you hear that and it's not about being a victim, it's just about this is how we do it. You think we've lost something today if if we can't be that creative with relatively little. So that was one thing. The second thing is, I suppose I've always been a bit of a conviction politician, right? You know, and so when I get on my soap box, you know, I can't help it. And I can't help get excited about it because my entire being knows that this is something I can do. You know, there's a thousand things I can't do, which is why I don't do them. But actually giving a damn about people I don't know, being able to make connections and make people laugh sometimes, being able to challenge power, being able to say, this isn't about me, this is just a really simple message. And if we tweak the way we did things, this is the no-brainer. If we tweak the way that where we did things, we could all benefit from that. So that's kind of I believe we have it in us to change the world for the better. And because I did it with food and because we all engage with food in some way, it was blindingly obvious that food was going to be the language we used. Um, and it seems to have worked and and I guess the very last thing is, I believe in being positive, not negative. I can't see any point in dissing people and you know, there's there's a time for protest. Of course there is. I've done that, laying down in the street in Whitehall. I've done all that, right? And there was a point to it when I did it, but that was 40 years ago. There isn't a lot of point to that now because they've kind of sussed out what you do. When we did it, nobody knew what to do with us. We were just lying down in Whitehall, basically. It's hilarious. And they were so nice to us. I have to say, I've met some very nice police people that way. Uh, but but my my challenge is just about everyday normality. How can we make everyday normality more joyous for people, healthier for people, more engaging and these awful words like inclusive for people. How can we, how can we make it normal for us all to live well and prosper? That that's what it is. And let's just do it with food.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely. I I couldn't agree more. And I remember, it's funny you mentioned that about the policeman, uh, and and the police force in general, because when I visited Todmorden, I remember going, you telling taking me past the local police station where you were growing corn, was it corn on the cob?
Pam Warhurst: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It was fantastic. And I don't know why we ended up doing that. I mean, the police station was in a place where you'd want to grow. And Mary and Nick and Estelle and me in the early days of Incredible Edible in Todmorden, a little market town, 15,000 people, nothing very special about it, except it's where we lived. This police station on a main road and a college on a main road and a disused churchyard and a and a and a health, you know, a new surgery and all these other things were obvious places to have food. And the great thing was that I think because we did it with a smile and because we didn't look like we were kind of enemy agents. Um, and all we were doing was standing there with a bit of, you know, a plant to plant. Um, they said you can do it. Um, and yeah, and and and the interesting thing about that is, people, I think, want to always say yes to something. It's just that sometimes we don't phrase things in a way that they feel they can say yes to. So part of the trick is find a way of them being comfortable and saying, yeah, all right, well, I I want to be on the inside track of this one, which is what the police station did. Um, God bless them. And, you know, when I went to New Zealand after the earthquake, went back a few years, a few four years, whatever it was, um, in the place where we were talking about incredible edible and I did it all over New Zealand, police stations were growing food. You know, and and I got an email the other day with pictures, so it's a good few years since I was in in New Zealand, and in the Geraldine police station, they are still growing beans and herbs and stuff like that. How how divine?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that's incredible.
Pam Warhurst: Because at the end of the day, you've got to you've got to laugh, haven't you? It's a hard gig, but you've got to laugh.
Dr Rupy: Totally. And I think it's that what you highlighted there is if you do something with a smile and you bring that positive element to it, you create that natural cohesion, which is incredible because that's how you actually get communities to rally around a subject and it's interesting you you mentioned, you know, market town, 15,000 people, but this has grown a huge amount since then. I I wonder if you can give us an insight into like how you scaled it up to a truly global organisation.
Pam Warhurst: Just tell stories. Just tell, just tell stories. Yeah, I mean, you set you set off with something that everybody can do. You know, and you tell some simple truths. We've all got gifts. You know, if we don't know how to grow, we know how to make signs. If we don't know how to make signs, we know how to cook some of the stuff. If we don't know how to do that, we could maybe write a poem about it. Whatever, we've all got a gift. So it's looking at food as a laser that can cut right through some things that, you know, maybe more flat surfaces can't get themselves into. And telling a story so that folks, because folks are ready for this. It's not like there's a load of people here doing this and the rest of the world doesn't know. It just wants an idea. So I was contacted in the early days and we all were by people who were all over the globe, San Francisco, Toronto, Australia, whatever. And the general theme was, you know, I knew I wanted to do something, something's not right about the way that we're bringing up our kids and I didn't know what to do, but I've heard. And so what I'm going to do is start growing veg in front of my house. That's what I'm going to do. And then I'm going to see, you know, and and and you could you can trust people to do that. That's the beauty of it. We live in a top-down world where for some reason, ordinary folks like us can't be trusted to do things. Well, we can be. You've just got to make our world easier for everybody to be able to do that. So for sure, um, if I'd have been prepared, I could have shown you a little book, which if you want to give me one minute, I'll go and get it.
Dr Rupy: Oh, I've got it here. Don't worry.
Pam Warhurst: Oh, you've got it. Fantastic.
Dr Rupy: It's right in front of me right here.
Pam Warhurst: Oh, bless you.
Dr Rupy: It's gorgeous. And the power of stories is is uh incredible. I mean, I I've I've dipped in and out of this and it's amazing, absolutely incredible.
Pam Warhurst: It well, it is. And it just tells and celebrates a very small cross-section of folks, whether it's in Argentina or it's in Lambeth or it's on the Isle of Bute or it's in Australia or wherever it is, under whatever title, people are spinning those three plates and they're using food to redefine their own health, their community's health and wellbeing and at the same time the planets. You know, because the bottom line of the stuff that I was trying to do was to say we're in such dire straits as a planet. We can either weep all the time or we can gird up our loins and see who wants to help us make things different. Um, and I think negativity is is debilitating, which is why we don't do it. But people are ready to change. You know, so that book tells the story of about 30 odd different groups of different sizes. Some are growing in wheelbarrows because nobody will give them any land. Some have taken over entire stretches of heaven knows what, you know, in in in other parts of the world. It doesn't matter. It's the spirit of the doing that matters. Because collectively, to state the blindingly obvious, we are bigger than the sum of our parts. You know, collectively, we as humans can do the right thing instead of doing the wrong thing. And that's all it's about. And at the same time, we get to eat good stuff. And at the same time, we encourage local farmers and producers. And at the same time, we green up our environments and we see orchards here and we see bees around and all we've done is grown food. That's all we've done. It it can change the dynamics of your neighbourhood without a shadow of a doubt, and it has changed them. And for me, the physical changing of space is the first step to encourage people to believe we physically changed this without a lot of permission. Now, what can we do when our backs are to the wall and our children matter and the children of people we're never going to meet matter. What are we going to do? And that's the next stage and that's why I'm going to campaign for a right to grow, but you know.
Dr Rupy: I definitely want to talk about that. What I also want to just pick up on something that I've learned from you and it's about the way in which you approach a problem. So last year we did a whole bunch of podcasts in the wake of the pandemic about antimicrobial resistance, uh, the issues of climate change, the the poor soil health, the gradual degradation of the ability to create uh crop at scale, etc, etc. Um, and the way in which a person quite reasonably can approach that is one of complete pessimism about how enabled we are to to rectify this problem. But the what I've learned from you is a growth mindset to quote something from uh Professor Caroline Dweck about how you approach a problem. And you see the problem through the lens of solutions rather than what it is today. And that's something that I think is truly special and something that you bring an incredible amount of energy to and it's inspiring for other people. And it's yeah, through the, you know, stories and stuff, but it has to start somewhere and I think you're the, you're the perfect person, the perfect catalyst.
Pam Warhurst: Well, I go back to what I just said. Our children, who's not going to fight for their kids, right? That's the first thing. And when I first thought about this, before I ever knew anybody would pick up and run with incredible edible, it just seemed like a no-brainer and, you know, Mary and I picked it off and all the other things that we did. I remember seeing a video of a woman whose son was trapped under a car. And she lifted the bloody car. Right? You know all these things about what you can actually do with will. And I thought we can we can lift that car. We can we can do this, right? We just need to, we need to approach this not in that sense that you've just said, um, which it, you know, if if you are of that mindset, it's very difficult. For some reason, thank you, I'm not. I don't know why. I've got absolutely no idea. Um, but if we start with the negativity, we might we we bind ourselves. You know, we we cannot stretch our imagination, we can't stretch the boundaries of where we think we can go. If we start with there's a solution to this somewhere, it's blindingly obvious there's a solution to this. So what are we going to do? It's not that we cut off our minds to the challenges, is that we start with where we need to get to and we work back. I always start with where I want to get to and then I work back. And I will not take no for an answer. There is a way of us to do that. So what framework do I have to change? What are the rules that I need to bend? How do we need to rethink the way that we live our lives? What are the elements of that? And can we create a a critical mass of people who can be on that same page and be a force for shifting the history that we're living and we're creating. And and the and the other example which I always give is the Rochdale pioneers. Yes. I live nine miles from where people had no food, but came together because they were not going to lie down and be victims. And bought food in bulk and redistributed that and became the international cooperative movement. These were not people who did a university thesis on it. These were people living the experience. And they did it. And if they can do it, we can all do it. That's, you know, we've just got to care. And the other thing is, which is slightly barking, I always think because I do believe in trusting people, jump. Just jump, because folks will catch you. You will not crash land. They will catch you. They will find a way of supporting you so that you can go forward. You can, you can trust people to do that. And it it it brings you to tears, but what it actually does, that lights the blue touch paper and you're off. You're a rocket because you know the folks are there and they're fuelling you to do those things. Um, and I've been really lucky to meet some totally amazing people along the way. And I'm particularly lucky because I think if we can make that story relevant to the young to young people, who it must not be a joy to be brought up in this world with all these negatives. We're not exactly, you know, we're not great examples of how we ought to be. But if we can give them that sense that the world is there for them to change for the better and they can do it, that's the joy.
Dr Rupy: That is an absolute joy. I can tell where you get your energy from. Certainly, because you're right in that a lot of people are now galvanising around this idea that the planet is here to be saved and we have to do something at a local level that can scale up. And what you were just talking about, the right to grow, one of the things I remember you saying, it always stuck in my mind, the things that would annoy you, not many things annoy you, but, you know, or or pee you off, but the shrubs that are grown around hospital sites and other public buildings. What what are we doing about that? Because I remember you having some conversations with people about how we can change that so we can actually curate that culture of food growing everywhere, which I completely get. I completely, you know, think that that is certainly something that will create a healthier relationship with food as well, because we know how it's grown as well as how to to use it. What's going on in in that respect?
Pam Warhurst: Yeah, well, this is interesting. Um, okay. So right at the beginning, we'd got a brand new in Todmorden health centre, kind of like a mini local hospital, but it's a brand new building, not just a surgery. Surrounded by these prickly plants that birds can jump in and out of, but which is great, but people can't do out with. Um, so anybody with half a brain would look at that and say, let me get this right. You've just spent 8 million quid or 10 million quid or whatever you've spent on building this and surrounding it by this landscape which you you've put in because you can't be bothered looking after it, basically. And yet, on the other hand, you're using NHS money to run five a day campaigns to get people to associate health with healthy eating. Well, let's do it together around your estate. So that was a no-brainer. I mean, there are some things that are just presented to you on your lap and you think, thank you God, that is so obvious, right, okay. Um, so we took up the most of the prickly plants and planted soft fruits and whatever was appropriate, some rhubarb and apple trees and whatever. Um, and that's still there and folks, you know, come, they pick the raspberries, they see how strawberries grow. So that drip, drip, drip of the mindset that I'm going to the doctors, but I'm going through good food. And I didn't know that grew like that, or whatever it might be. And the premise is, of course, that if you create an environment, a, you know, a a a a community that sees how good food grows, you bring up kids in a different way in terms of their relationship with that food. It's just, it really, if all you see is plastic from Peru, that's what you think's normal. If you see fruit growing on trees, berries on bushes you can taste that are wonderful, herbs that you can stick in your soup or whatever it is, you've got a different relationship to food because it's normal. It's not what somebody on a telly is telling you to do with MasterChef. It's what you've got in your own backyard. So, um, I started telling some stories about that and and and getting people a little bit excited because I think if we are to improve population health, and if COVID has taught us anything, it's going to be another one of these coming, so we'd all better get a bit healthier. Yeah. Then instead of treating the NHS as an illness service, could we possibly engage in a conversation that says, yes, you're fantastic with what you do when all else fails. But shall we just invest something? And shall we do it under the NHS, not a banner that says that's public health, that's nothing to do with us. I mean, that's just ridiculous. So, so I've done some work with the NHS Confederation, whom I adore. Um, and the argument is, could we please in health do three things? This is the incredible edible ask. Revise your national estates policies so you never create or refer a health building without surrounding it by food that you've worked out with your staff and your community what they want and how they're going to have to look after it. So you've not just zapped in to a community that doesn't know what you're doing and said, well, you didn't look after it, so we're not. No, no, no, you've you've opened a conversation around food. That's the first thing. Secondly, will you please invest in community kitchens, NHS? You've just got to show people how to cook these things and you've got to make it normal and you've got to do it under the NHS banner. Not a voluntary thing, not a charity thing, not a we are poor, we'll show you. Normal health procedure. And please, let's not kind of like, uh, put fancy words like social prescribing. Let's just say these are, you know, this is health. This is what the NHS is about. And the third thing is, because if we are going to build more local economies, so people aren't flying over the planet and people are creating more local food and enterprises, all of which contributes towards the way a community feels about food, then will you please use your huge budgets to support local food production? Will you please invest in local growers? Will you please invest in local processes? Will you please, so collectively, again, of those three plates, if health would bend its budget to do that, and if they would have enough bottle at the top to do it for long enough, we would shift the population health stats in this country. I'm, you know, it's not the only part of it. It's not the only thing you would ever do. But it's a pretty fundamental thing that you wake up in the morning and you know that your doctors are supporting healthy lifestyles. And it's difficult. The last few years have shown, you know yourself, you know, rushed off your feet. God knows where I'm going to get the energy to deal with all these things and keep my strength up and my, you know, my positivity and whatever else it might be. But I presented these ideas to the leaders in my local authority. Um, who are the folks like the police and the NHS and the local authority and whatever it might be. And I did my usual ra ra ra, because I just can't help it. And they're all getting excited. Yeah, that's great, Pam. Yeah, let's do something. But could I get a slot in their diary to do it? Sadly, not. So let us hope that the end of the world being nigh doesn't come when they've got a diary clash because we've got a few problems. So, but the guy who is a doctor, a GP in Halifax, who um, was also is also the chair of the clinical commissioning group, phoned me and said, they're not doing anything, are they? Let's do it. Let's do it. So, so just before COVID, sadly, we're going to kick it off again just after Easter. Um, he said, right, come on, Pam, I'm going to invite everybody to my surgery on a Sunday. This is a really a mixed community in Halifax. And we're going to turn that car park into something green. Right? So we started putting raised beds, we started putting boxes, we started turning over a strip of land and putting some berries in it. It didn't suddenly become Kew Gardens because the COVID came, right? Um, and it really hit that community hard. But before we got COVID, within six months, we had 50 people turning up on a on a Sunday. Who who because they were maybe they were a bit lonely or they wanted to know about food or, you know, leadership in the community. This doctor walks the talk. Right, you know. Um, so we did that and then COVID came in and it all went a little bit belly up, obviously. But we're kicking that off again with a big celebration. Because he is walking what he's talking about. And it's just, why isn't everybody doing this? You know, but I'll bet Rupy, there's a heck of a lot are. And if we could join those dots more as one voice that demanded change in how we fund things in the NHS.
Dr Rupy: I I think, you know, that lateral thinking approach, it only takes a couple of people for that idea to sort of seed and grow across different areas. And I think you're a shining example of that with what you guys have done with Incredible Edible. And I think within the NHS, there are obviously barriers and, you know, there's a a whole bunch of hoops to jump through, but if one person can do it. I know there's the GP in Lambeth, I forget his name now, I have to look it up, but, you know, his uh, his uh garden that a lot of the patients use as a, yeah, use as a tool to improve their mental health and communicate and connect with other people in the local area. You know, there are some incredible shining examples. And I remember telling you about this a few years ago, this idea of every GP surgery in the country being affiliated with a community kitchen as a way of thinking laterally about how to improve the general health of the population across the UK and beyond, because it's got to be about prevention, um, and and improving wellbeing rather than just sick care like you said. So, yeah, I think there's certainly a way of doing that. And I'd be really interested to know how your colleague gets on in Halifax.
Pam Warhurst: Well, absolutely. And not only that, of course, because uh Nigel Crisp, Lord Crisp, who used to be the chief exec of the NHS, brought out his book, Health Starts at Home, Hospitals are for, I can't remember quite the title, but basically, and he completely gets that. I mean, it makes complete sense from the patient's point of view, but also from the profession's point of view when there ain't enough money for people making themselves sick when we could make them healthier through living our lives in a different way. So, yeah, I I think it's, for me, if we could unite around that proposition more than anything else in my book, because I know it sounds crazy, but for me, health is low hanging fruit because it is the biggest no-brainer that we challenge ourselves with. We cannot go through a really debilitating crisis like we've been through again unless we can make our population healthier. And we we cannot do that to our NHS again and we cannot do it to our communities. So for me, what's matters is that we find a way of challenging this, because I do challenge even though I'm a positive person. I can see that. And the way to challenge is to say, can we not have this as an example of best practice, please? Can we make this normal? Can we not have this as a marginal activity that a few people are doing? No, no, no, let's put the NHS brand on this and let's make a clear statement that this is the way we are addressing the population's health. One of many, one of many. I'm not, I'm, you know, so you've got NHS Forest doing some great stuff about planting orchards. You've got us doing whatever it is. You've got other people. But they're all kind of like exceptions to the rule or great case studies. Well, can we stop that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr Rupy: One of the things that came out of the NHS Food Review is uh that actually of of learning from exemplars of best practice uh with regard to food procurement and uh preparation of food within clinical environments. And I was lucky enough to um present at the uh public sector catering conference recently and I met the NHS chefs of the of the year. I believe they're up in Blackburn. These are two guys with a Michelin star background. They used to work in kitchens in India and some of the top hotels. One of them also worked in Dubai and they're now cooking in NHS hospitals and they prepared one of their meals there on part as part of the demo kitchen stage. And I kid you not, it was like the most incredible uh monk, no, it wasn't monkfish, it was a tuna curry that they made with like curry leaves and everything, all within budget, all something that the patients absolutely adored, all all with all the um uh the dietaries in mind, the nutritional requirements in mind, everything. So it can be done. And I think sometimes you do need that example of best practice, as long as it can be scaled up across other countries and they can be, they can show other people how to do it in their local communities.
Pam Warhurst: So it definitely can be done. It just takes that that that uh acceptance and that that's positive energy in your mind that it can be done and you should be the solution to to show people.
Pam Warhurst: And it needs leadership. You know, and the key, the key to these things is is um, it can be done within budget. I hate to say that that is the thing you need to crack. But that is the thing you need to crack because sadly, chairs of audit committees kind of like, you know, don't always get it. They're great on figures, but they don't always, because that's not their job and that's not that that's fine. As long as they're not the ones making decisions about the future strategy of the NHS, then we're fine. But as you say, it can be done. I I visited a wonderful woman who was running some procurement in, I want to say Northampton, somewhere, somewhere in that neck of the woods. And she was, for the staff kitchen, not for the main wards, she was buying 2,000 small loaves a day from a local social enterprise bakery. She she could do it within her budget. She was supporting. And for me, it's those small acts that we build on because sometimes people get frightened of scaling up. And what we're saying is, no, actually, what we're doing is taking a concept and spreading it and customising it for you. But the elements of that can be spread all over the place. You know, and if it then means that collaboration means that your numbers are going up, which is what we would call scaling, then that's fine. But we don't have to start by producing widgets. We just have to start with a leadership that says, you were talking about the way that I look at things. If what we've got now isn't right, shall we work backwards and see what needs to change? I mean, what is clever about that? It's just, you know. So, I'm really confident that through the examples you've cited, through the champions who are doctors themselves, like you, like Stephen in Halifax, like the people, you know, like people working for the hospital, like Alder Hey, the children's hospital, they were they were having kitchens on wards, you know. Let's look at that. And then let's have a look at where it didn't quite work and understand why it didn't quite work. And could we have made it work? Or was it not of its time? But I kind of think the gun's to the temple. You know, for me, the terrible thing is that we've got the master card, which is the gun is to the temple. So what are you going to do about it? You know, and there's no bad guys in this. It's the system that's wrong. People aren't wrong, it's the system that's wrong. And people have mortgages to pay and they're worried about things and I get all that stuff. So that's why we have to need to love and nurture them and help them through that system's change that will mean that we can actually put good food on tables, whether that's in hospitals or in kitchens or wherever that might be.
Dr Rupy: The book is um absolutely inspiring. If you know, people should definitely go and pick up a copy and see just how far your your message has spread and how, you know, people have have taken that that glimmer of hope and and really grown it into something that reflects their own communities. If you can give our listeners a sense of what they can do, other than buying the book, which I highly encourage, uh, in their own local communities, because we've got listeners from from all over, people in India, people in America, rural France, Australia, obviously in the UK as well. What where can people start and and what and what do you think would be a good first step for them?
Pam Warhurst: Okay, I think, I think if they look at the book, or I think if they listen to the TED talk, or I think if they go on Google and look at incredible, whatever they want to do, wherever they might be, the biggest message is we can change the world through small actions. You've got to believe it because it's true. And that it it's how you wake up in the morning and the fact that you don't have to know everything to be able to start to work in your community to grow and to share and to reconnect. You don't have to know what sustainability means. You don't have to understand peak oil. You don't have to worry about the fact that nobody elected you to be prime minister. That doesn't matter. You can wake up in the morning with your gifts and whatever space you've got, your window box, your front garden, your back garden, the verge by the side of the house or whatever it might be called in other parts of the world. And you can actually get a packet of seeds which you can share with your neighbours or find a neighbour that's prepared to split a herb with you or whatever it might be, and you can start. And you start by in in small areas, do what's doable. Do not take over an entire farmer's field when you've woken up in the morning because it's going to kill you. But but if you start with your window box and you have a chat with your neighbour and and they see stuff growing and you make a lovely sign, I would always sign it. You know, I'm growing this today. I've no idea what I'm doing. Let's taste it tomorrow. I'll make it into or whatever you want to do, bring humour into it. Absolutely. And when it's grown, share it. You know, and don't think you have to ask permission to do that because you don't. This is your land or your gifts or your seed packet or whatever it is, and you can share that and do what you want with that. Because nobody's going to sue you for helping people. You know, we've not killed anybody yet in the last 14 years, so I think we'll be all right on that one. So whatever it is you're doing, and and and think about it. If all you can do is grow herbs, then grow herbs and make great pesto. Or if what you can do, you haven't got that, but actually you could get from your local library and there's a book about um what you can do when you go and pick things in the wild. You can wild garlic or whatever else it might be. But the point is, connect with something growing that is edible and then create something you can share. That's the key. Because that starts to open up a conversation with other people and that makes you feel better in the morning, it makes you feel better and it makes you more confident. And suddenly you start to see there's lots of people like you. You know, and they don't all have to be old and going grey. There's all sorts of folks. So, so, you know, be a bit cocky at times. Go and say, you know, I've got a tent, let me, I'm going to rack up in front of my and I'm just going to make pancakes and I'm going to stuff them with this thing that I've been growing and pass them out, whatever it might be. Um, make it relevant to your community and your culture. Um, share your stories, do it with joy, and you're on the road. That's all you've had to do. And then, of course, what happens is, once you start to do in your front, your back garden or whatever, you start walking along your streets or your or your highways or whatever, and you see unloved patches that are looking a bit grim. And you think, um, well, I do something in those. So you go out on a Sunday morning with your gloves on and you and and you grow herbs there and you put a lovely sign there. You know, I mean, the story is absolutely true. There's nothing particular about Todmorden. It's a normal working class town. But we took over because somebody had the great idea of taking over a grass verge, taking out all the rubbish that was there and planting herbs. And we created a lovely sign that said, you know, when these are ready, this is food for free. And we didn't ask the local authority because they would have been inclined to say no, and that would have made them feel bad. So we didn't ask in the first place. So you take a view, if it's unloved, why wouldn't you love it? Who's going to stop you? And as a result of us doing that, within nine months, the council put a bench there so people could sit in the middle of it and enjoy it and before it was a dog toilet. So trust people. People are good all over the place. So that's where you start. You start with taking a bit of unloved land or a bit of land that you can have some control over and make food and share it. But just to talk about the right to grow and why I'm doing that, if I may, is because that can happen, that does happen. It makes a big difference to communities whether they're villages or whether they're major boroughs in cities. Um, but there are parts of this country and countries all over the world where the public realm, which is those spaces in our communities that are funded through public taxation, are not available for people to grow food on. Right? This could be in their park because there's a perfectly legitimate reason it's a it's a football pitch and you want kids to play football. But it could be something that the council or the health authority or the prison service or whatever the organisation is, just hasn't got the money to look after it or didn't even know it owned or whatever. Now, if it turned out that instead of waiting as a citizen, an ordinary, you know, member of your community, to find somebody in your local um anchor institution, that's to say a local authority or whatever, to find somebody who'd say yes because they get it, why don't we just create a right for people to do it anyway? So it doesn't matter the nature of the person in that organisation. You've got a right, you've got to talk to me about how I'm going to do that. This isn't hitting anybody over the head. It's starting a new conversation of equals. Right? You can't say to me no, and I'm not going to say to you, I'm going to take it up and, you know, make my millions. I'm going to say, I'm a citizen, you're the state, talk to me about how we grow food on it. And that's what we're trying to do in England because we happen to live in England and the message I would always say is do what you can get your hands on. I can't do anything in Brazil. I can tell a story and Brazilians can do stuff in Brazil, but I can do stuff in England. Um, but we will also be launching, so we're launching it in the House of Lords, um, as a campaign. Do you want to help us create a right for communities to be able to grow food, improve their environment and maybe even think about whether that that could become a community farm or something like that. Let's let's see how the conversations go. And then shall we do it in Wales, where the Welsh government have got the wellbeing of future generations act, fantastic, would that we did. Or Scotland, where they're interested in community assets, or Northern Ireland, there's a, you know, shall we do it in the UK and shall we just tell that story? It's not about bragging, it's just telling the story of the art of the possible. And if we can change that law, and we'd be interested in changing the levelling up bill to allow everybody to have a right to grow food when they need it. And we're going to need that in the next 10 years. We're really going to need that land and it's there. And the research tells us it's possible to do it. So let's just have a crack and not worry that we need another research document or whatever. Let's just do it.
Dr Rupy: I couldn't agree with you more. Pam, you're such a wonderful, inspiring person to listen to and I and I'm sure it's going to inspire a lot of action as well. It's not just uh a lovely story. It's something that will actually enact change. So I really appreciate you taking the time to to chat to us today. Um, it's brilliant. I just want to just give you a massive virtual hug, really. I wish we were doing this in person. I've got to come up to Todmorden at some point as well in the future and uh revisit because um it was a wonderful uh wonderful experience going to that school and then and doing some cooking with some local veg. So we'll have to redo that at some point in the future.
Pam Warhurst: It was lovely, but you know, there's great communities all over the place. So if anybody wants to help us do the right, get in contact with me because um we're serious about this. This is this is the crack. This is what we're going for. This could make a big difference to the lives of everybody. It's a small step, but it's one we can all take. So it's been a pleasure talking to you.
