Ali Abdaal: There's always hidden selfish motives behind everything that we do. Ultimately, the book here, The Status Game, everything we do is a game to try and acquire social status in some capacity or another, whether we're honest about it or not. There's another really good book, The Elephant in the Brain, that talks about how we systematically ignore the elephant in the room. All of this selfish motives we have for doing things. Why am I really on YouTube? Is it because I want to help people or is it really because I enjoy the status, the fame, the prestige, the money, the power and all of this kind of stuff? And I think what I realised is that being open about money is a thing that I'm personally comfortable with, more or less. And it does kind of tick that box of acquiring more social status because it lets me flex my wealth in a way that lets me act as if I'm doing it for the sake of others, but really maybe I'm actually doing it internally. I don't really know. I think everything is multifactorial and there's a bunch of reasons for doing all the things.
Presenter: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: I am super excited about today's episode all about being productive, authentic and vulnerability with Ali Abdaal. He is a productivity guru, one of the world's biggest YouTubers, so I'm sure a lot of you have already come across him. And if you haven't, I highly recommend going to check out his YouTube channel. And he's probably one of the most authentic people online and in person that I've met. Ali Abdaal shares pretty much all aspects of his life, his business, his personal life, his bank account, and he brings you along the journey where he shares his learnings along the way as well, all the way through his YouTube channel and other social media accounts. We talk about a lot of things today, his inspirations, including Naval Ravikant, who I'm a massive fan of. We talk about money, health and happiness. His background, we dive into where he grew up in South Africa and starting his first business as a teenager and the influences that led him to go into medicine and also a story about how losing out to a scammer actually led him to starting a business at medical school as well. And that's what spurred him on, that turning adversity into something that was productive in the end. I also ask him some interesting questions about how he uses all that information about productivity that he's read and studied over years to learn a new skill today or instil a new habit today. And he's actually getting into working out, eating well. So we have a discussion about different productivity hacks and behaviour change principles that have helped him create default rules and accountability really to instil those new habits that I think are going to resonate with a lot of you. You can find Ali on YouTube. He started in 2017. He's got a total of over 2 million subscribers and over 150 million views. He posts new videos every week and they're really varied and I actually watch them religiously. That's why I sort of reached out to him because I really wanted to chat to him on the podcast as well. He's also got his own podcast called Deep Dive with Ali Abdaal, which debuted at number one in the education category on Apple podcast charts as well. And he's got lots of podcasts that he's featured on, including The Daily Stoic, Ryan Holiday, if you've come across his work before, I'm a big fan of his work, The Diary of a CEO, Noah Kagan Presents. Again, all these people that I follow online who I find super inspiring as well. So definitely go check him out if you haven't come across him. And he does some really good videos describing exactly how he got into YouTube as well. So if you are interested in starting your own YouTube channel or a side hustle, Ali is definitely one to give a follow. But for now, we're going to get on to the podcast before I tell you about the podcast recipe of the week. Ali is someone who really wants to get into healthy eating and he doesn't have many culinary skills. And that's why I have the perfect recipe for him that I'm going to be sharing on the newsletter as well. It's the squash and salmon tray bake with miso chilli. You can find it on the app or I'll be sharing the full recipe on the newsletter as well. So you can go check that out at thedoctorskitchen.com and make sure you do check out all the different socials where we share healthy recipes to help you eat well every single day. And remember, you can check out the Doctor's Kitchen app with a seven-day free trial as well. You can cancel at any time and you won't get charged. I really hope you enjoy this conversation. It's definitely inspired me to do a lot more in the productivity world and I'll be sharing some of my tips on how I run a whole bunch of different things, including this podcast, a recipe creating team, the tech team, all that kind of stuff. It's a lot of work, but I find fun in the grind. And actually, we talk about how we shouldn't be referring it to the grind as well. So the vernacular that we use to describe our daily lives is super important. I'm going to stop waffling now. I'm going to let you enjoy this wonderful conversation I had with Ali Abdaal. And a quick warning, there is some salty language here, so if you do have any young kids, please be aware. Ali, thank you so much for making time.
Ali Abdaal: Thank you for coming over. We're in the studio. It's the first time meeting in person.
Dr Rupy: I know. This is, it's always a bit weird actually because I've only interviewed a few people that I haven't chatted to one to one before. And instantly you know whether this is going to be a good episode because you've got that instant report. And the first thing you asked me about was my trousers.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I was like, where are they from? They look so good. I'm trying to level up my own fashion, my own style, wearing mismatched socks, have holes in most of my trainers. So you've recommended me that shop in Shoreditch, Soho, was it?
Dr Rupy: They've got a couple. So L'Estrange is the brand that I use. Actually, it's funny because Gethin from Morning Live, one of the presenters for BBC Morning Live, he asked me the same thing and I feel like I should be getting a cut from these guys. So if they're listening.
Ali Abdaal: You're starting with the food stuff, you can branch out into menswear.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're branching out quite a bit, aren't you? Into different things. You just released your productivity line.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, we're doing a few different things. I kind of do feel a bit weird about it because all the business advice, as you would know, would say, stick to your core focus, do one thing really well. And I think the thing we do really well is like educational content. But it's kind of fun having a bit of a side hustle to like make stationery. And I really want to make a mechanical keyboard and I really want to make a backpack. So it's like the stuff I use every day, I would love to design products. Even though the margins on those are basically zero and it's not very profitable. But hey, it's fun. So just trying to figure out what's this balance between doing the thing you're good at versus doing side hustles just for the bants.
Dr Rupy: Well, it sounds like you've got a bit of a designer streak in you. I mean, notwithstanding the fact that you already asked me about where my trousers are, but also the different projects that you're involved in as well, you just mentioned how you want to design. It's a bit Philippe Starck, it's like, you want to design different elements of what people interact with on a daily basis.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, I've been into website design since about the age of 12. And that was really how I got my start on making money on the internet through doing website design. And since then, when I went to university, I was always the one designing the posters for the events for the Pakistan Society, the Islamic Society, the balls and all that stuff. And then got more into kind of app and UI and UX design for MedTech companies. And then when the YouTube channel started, I think one of the kind of advantages that it had early on was it looked pretty reasonable because I had an eye for design. And I think that was a skill that I just think has paid absolutely dividends over the years. And now I'm kind of slowly getting into product design, like what is it that makes kind of clothing look aesthetic or like makes stationery look aesthetic, all that kind of stuff.
Dr Rupy: Well, I can tell that sort of has influenced this beautiful studio that we're sitting in at the moment. You've got clearly got an eye for design, all your books and stuff and everything's quite purposeful. Am I right in saying that?
Ali Abdaal: Kind of, yeah. I mean, the team's done a good job in putting the studio together. My guidelines were basically three things. It needs to have a lamp, it needs to have plants and it needs to have books. And if we can make that happen with sort of a white and blue pastelly theme, that was the design kind of motifs that we wanted. I don't know if I'm using that word right. Because I think with a lot of a lot of like male YouTubers have a sort of more dark mode setup, which is a bit more like masculine, a bit more like kind of exposed brick. This is I think a little bit more like gender neutral and that's kind of the vibe that I like with like nice, nice pretty colours and greenery in the background.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, you've got quite a, don't take this the wrong way, like a soft, gentle personality. And I think that's.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, people say it's very feminine. So I try and lean into that sometimes.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, we sing Disney songs and all that kind of stuff. And I love the openness actually about that because I think certainly a few years ago that probably would have not been something that was quite popular or looked down upon perhaps. Have you found that along your journey that you've sort of lent into things that you truly enjoy and you truly find valuable?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I think earlier on, I had more of a sense of trying to craft an image or something, like, hey, this is what a masculine guy should be doing kind of thing. But it always felt like hard because my whole vibe is fairly like soft and Disney. And so I found that when I would mention those things in videos, people would actually resonate with them. People were like, oh, this is actually kind of cool. And at university, I was always kind of singing random Disney songs and getting friends over for jam sessions and stuff. And I found that the more I've lent into that on YouTube as well, the more people seem to like it. And I guess it's somewhat polarizing, like when you're being your true, your true authentic self, some people won't like it and that's totally fine. There's other channels that they can watch, but some people do. And I think that's one of the, you know, one of the things that Naval Ravikant says that you escape competition through authenticity. So the more you can be your unique weird self, the less you're competing with other people.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. How long have you known about Naval Ravikant and how has that influenced you? Because when I read his book, the almanac, I don't think it was his book, it was written about him.
Ali Abdaal: A compilation of his wisdom.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's a compilation of his wisdom. It's so good. It's amazing.
Ali Abdaal: I've highlighted like almost every line in it.
Dr Rupy: That's the problem. I've got all these pages filled, like pulled down from the side. How influential has he been for you?
Ali Abdaal: I think I discovered him a few years ago when everyone else in sort of the Twitter sphere seemed to be discovering him as well. I think it was his appearance on Tim Ferriss and then his appearance on the Knowledge Project, Shane Parrish's podcast. I was like, bloody hell, this guy. And then started following him on Twitter, reading all of his things, watching all his things, consuming all his stuff. And just sort of now when I have a thought, I don't know if it's my thought or if it's just something that Naval would have said sometime in 2017 that I'm just parroting as if it were my own thought. So I think it has had a big impact. And I was rereading the almanac. Where is it? It's here somewhere the other day and just the opening line of. It's at the top there. Just right behind you. Yeah, right at the top where it should be. Next to 50 Shades of Grey. Next to 50 Shades of Grey, exactly. Oh, there was just that that that opening line which was, okay, well, I can't find the line, but paraphrasing the line, it's going to sound it's going to sound bad.
Dr Rupy: Just paraphrase it.
Ali Abdaal: Paraphrasing the line, it was like, the three things people care about are money, health, happiness, but it really in that order. But the correct order is the other way around. I was like, oh my god, that's so true. And I think when I read that, that line, I just read it a couple of weeks ago, that was the thing I was like, okay, I really need to take this cooking thing more seriously so that I can start eating healthier because living on, you know, by daily Deliveroo is not a good way of living life.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I remember I came across him, I think a friend of mine forwarded that viral tweet about money generation.
Ali Abdaal: How to get rich without getting lucky.
Dr Rupy: Exactly. Yeah. And that sort of has really stuck with me, especially right now as I'm, I've just started my sabbatical from medicine. It's a bit of a cop out because I'm basically giving myself a year to really make this work this year before I consider whether clinical medicine is going to be my future or not. We'll talk about that in a bit. But yeah, no, that was the first time I came across him and it's been hugely influential for me. And I can see sort of strands of that, especially when you talk about authenticity and you're talking about things that you actually want to create yourself and you're just basically making your work play.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah. That's like the subject of the book that I'm writing.
Dr Rupy: Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.
Ali Abdaal: It's like a productivity book, but it's like, you know, people often ask me, how are you so productive? How do you do all this stuff when you were a medical student and a doctor? It's like, it just genuinely didn't feel like work. And I found ways to make it fun or, you know, I did things that were fun for me already. Or for the things that weren't, because sometimes we just have to do things that are just boring as fuck. For those things, I found a way to make them more fun. And is that like a suitable model that is actually evidence-based or is it just me spouting off the top of my head? It turns out there's actually a ton of evidence around like intrinsic motivation, around how, you know, when we're kids, the way that we do things is because we're intrinsically motivated. We do them because they're fun for no other reason than because they're fun. And then as we grow up, we get taught that actually we're doing things for the extrinsic goal of getting good grades, getting into university, getting into med school. Especially as medics, we have that whole like, will this add to my CV? Therefore I'm going to do it. Will this maximize my chances of maybe getting a publication that's got a PubMed ID? Therefore I'm going to do it. All that stuff. And a lot of the evidence seems to show that whenever we're extrinsically motivated by stuff, that actually crowds out intrinsic motivation. And you might have noticed this as well, like when, like I certainly found that when I was doing YouTube for fun, I would be excited to edit a YouTube video. As soon as it started being, I'm making YouTube videos for a sponsor or for money or because this is now going well, suddenly it's like, oh, do I really have to edit this video? And this is weird because like suddenly adding in a financial incentive actually removes the can remove the joy of doing the thing, which is so bizarre because everyone's like, I want to make my hobby into my hustle and all this shit. It's dangerous.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's the dark side of hustle culture that people don't really talk about as much. I want to, before we start talking about this area about the present, I want to talk about the start. So you, you were born in Karachi, is that right?
Ali Abdaal: That's right. Born in Karachi, Pakistan, 1994. And then when I was like one or two years old, we moved to Lesotho, which is a country surrounded by South Africa.
Dr Rupy: Oh, you're the landlocked country.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, the landlocked country.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because some of my friends worked in Durban for a little while.
Ali Abdaal: Oh.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, they took an F3, F4, and one of them was a surgeon. She worked in Durban and she told me about Lesotho and a few other areas.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, we were living there for like five years. My mom was a doctor there. We went to school there and everything. Used to go to South Africa on the weekends. And yeah, then moved to the UK at the age of seven once my mom did her PLAB and all that jazz to become a doctor.
Dr Rupy: Do you have any memories of Lesotho and?
Ali Abdaal: Oh, loads. Yeah, it was great. Go to school, come home, watch watch Pokemon on the TV. Rewatch The Sound of Music repeatedly. Space Jam, you know, the Michael Jordan film. That was another classic.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, nice. Good times.
Ali Abdaal: Good times.
Dr Rupy: What about outside of like, you know, TV and stuff? Like what was it actually like to live in Lesotho? Because I think people have a warped idea of like countries in general. I mean, I just got back from Dubai this weekend and the images that people have of Dubai, for example, are just like, you know, G-Wagons and Ferraris everywhere. But actually there's a huge amount of culture there that we don't really get to see on our BBC sort of cleansed documentaries or five-minute snips. So yeah, I wonder if you.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I think the so because I lived there for sort of age two to age seven, it was really all I knew. And so it was just like normal life. And it was only when I, you know, I remember having a feeling when I first went on the first day of primary school in the UK where I walked in and I was like, oh my god, these people are like the same, the same skin colour as me. Because everyone there was white and, you know, compared to most like people in Lesotho where me and my brother were the lightest people. And everyone else was like, everyone else was black. Suddenly it's like being in a UK primary school where everyone else is white and we are the darkest people. It's like, whoa, completely, completely mind-blowing shit on day one of primary school. But no, beyond that, you know, it was a good life. We'd go home, go to school. I think most kids in most countries, you know, if parents are doctors and stuff, you're going to live a fairly similar life. You go to school, you come home, you try and get good grades, have a good time, play Pokemon cards with your friends.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And then when you came to the UK, it was a bit of a culture shock, I imagine, and then I imagine you just sort of settled into the culture.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I think that's the thing with being a kid when you move around, you like, it feels weird for a couple of days and then you're just like, cool, this is life now. Let's let's let's keep going.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah.
Ali Abdaal: Switched to playing Yu-Gi-Oh rather than Pokemon, but that was the major change.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, that was the major change. What about like, and don't give me the medical school interview answer here, but like, was it, was it your mom's profession and experience in medicine that drew you towards medicine in itself or were there other influences?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I think, so the issue with having, with being Asian and having Asian parents is that all of your parents' friends are also going to be going to be doctors. And so as a kid, the only career that you really have exposure to is doctor. And doctor is a prestigious and cool career. So from the age of five, you know, people would ask me, oh, what do you want to do when you grow up? I'd be like, I want to be a neurosurgeon. Because, you know, people would be like, oh, hello, check you out. And I'd get that validation. I'd be like, yeah, you know, I'm the smart one. I want to do medicine. And then growing up, you know, it was, it was only really sort of age 14, 15 that you sort of consciously decide, okay, what are my GCSEs going to be? Do I need to hustle for this work experience stuff? Um, at the time, I was still, I just still kind of thought medicine was just the default path. Like, what other careers are there other than medicine? Like, maths, like becoming a maths teacher? No, thanks. History, becoming a history teacher? No, thanks. And you just don't, I just didn't really appreciate that you could study a thing and not become a teacher of the thing. Right. Because you just don't have exposure to those. And it was really age 16 when I'd consciously decided, okay, do I actually want to do this medicine thing? And the other thing I was interested in was computer science because I'd had this background in website building and coding and I'd rush to go home from school so that I could do some more freelance web development stuff and try and make money on the internet kind of age 13 to 18. And I thought, okay, do I want to do computer science and become like a programmer or something? Or do I want to do medicine and then be a programmer on the side? And I thought two things. Number one, it's more interesting being a doctor who knows how to code than to just be a dude who knows how to code. And secondly, everyone says uni is the best time of your life. So six years is better than three years. So those two reasons were the things I did not say in my interview about why medical school. The official answer was, which is true to an extent, you know, science, helping people.
Dr Rupy: The altruism side of things. Yeah, yeah.
Ali Abdaal: That kind of stuff.
Dr Rupy: Did you mention the coding stuff in your interview at all?
Ali Abdaal: I can't remember. I had a few. I mentioned my personal statement very briefly as, you know, well-rounded.
Dr Rupy: Extracurricular activities. Yeah. Mine was just Duke of Edinburgh, I think I did like a silver or something like that. But the coding stuff I find very interesting. So where was the introduction to that? Because as someone who doesn't know how to code and someone who looks at computer languages and I'm currently chatting to my tech team and all the rest of it, like it just goes way over my head. Where was that influence from? Because I imagine that wasn't from your mother.
Ali Abdaal: No. So when I was in year seven or eight, I remember I used to quite enjoy ICT classes and be like, you know, I liked, I was always sort of sort of tinkering a bit on the computer, being like, oh, what is this command prompt thing? You know, black terminal, like I kind of feel a bit like a hacker. And then I saw some kid kind of right click the Google homepage and click view source and you see that all that scroll of code and I was just like, oh, that's really cool. This guy's a hacker. I was like, that seems really cool because I was like a nerd guy and just generally interested in computers anyway. I was like, cool, I'm going to learn how to be a hacker. And through learning allegedly how to be a hacker, I was like, okay, actually, it's kind of hard learning how to be a hacker. You have to learn Linux and all this shit. Okay, but then around the same time, me and my friends were super into these like online text-based role-playing games back in the day. So like, you know, if you were a normie, you'd play on miniclip.com. But if you were a nerd, you'd play on like kingsofchaos.com, which was like this kind of like Neopets, but like for men or for boys. Where and I noticed that there was every file had a .php extension. I was like, what's this PHP thing? And I discovered it's a programming language. I was like, shit, it's a programming language. Could I make my own game? And so I was like, damn, I'm going to make my own game. And that was my introduction to realizing it's actually really hard making a game, but the way you get there is by learning HTML, learning CSS, learning how to build websites. Then realizing, oh crap, if I build websites for other people, I can make money. Shit, I can make money on the internet. Oh my god. Like, like game changing. And so every year me and my friends would come up with some new idea for like how to make money on the internet. They all failed, but it was it was a learning experience.
Dr Rupy: I know we're talking about making your work play and going for your ambitions and all the rest of it. But does the drive to make money come into that? And has that been a streak, a theme in your career from that early age, would you say?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I think so. I think.
Dr Rupy: Because it's not a very fashionable thing to talk about. It's especially in the UK anyway. It's kind of like taboo. It's kind of like, you know, sort of seen as greedy or.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I think like when I was a, I think all kids kind of want to make money. I think, um, you know, we were reasonably, reasonably well off growing up, but it was like, you know, having sort of saving up on birthdays and Eids and stuff to be able to get, you know, a PlayStation or a PlayStation game or whatever. And so in my mind was always like, I really want to get all this tech. Like, you know, the latest PlayStation, the games, extra monitor for my computer. Oh, if I could get a laptop one day, that would be sick. I was like, to do that, I need money. Now, to make money, the passive way is to wait for birthdays and Eids and wait for 10 years to save up to be able to get a laptop. But if I can make money on the internet, then I can get a laptop sooner. And so it was that kind of thing. And I think for me, what I realized is that there's something very exhilarating about being able to make something and then someone gives you money in return for the thing. It's like, oh my god, like people are paying me for this. This is this feels like cheating. And with the power of the internet, like no one knew I was a 13-year-old kid from across the internet doing their web design. I was just like, you know, made a PayPal account, lied about my email address, all that stuff. I think, yeah, that developed the bug inside me for it's cool to make money. And then as I as I got older, it was always a little bit of a thing in the back of my mind that I I like this idea of making money on the internet. And then when I first read the four-hour work week around the age of 17 was when I was like, oh, okay, cool. This making money thing, you know, passive income is a thing. And around that time, I was starting to starting to speak to doctors and stuff through, like, you know, work experience and then getting into med school and asking them, you know, if you won the lottery, would you still continue to do medicine? And half of them said, no, I'd leave immediately. And the other half said, I'd still continue because it's fun, but I'd go part-time. So you were asking that question at age 17? Uh, 17, 18. Yeah, when doing work experience and like, I we we knew a ton of doctors and things at the time because parents, friends, the whole like Asian doctor community. Yeah, yeah. And I kind of realized that, oh crap, the the reason people are not going part-time is because of money because they're like, oh, mortgage, kids, private school, etc, etc. So can I create a life as per the Tim Ferriss approach where I've I make money through passive income and then I do medicine for fun. And so that was like my north star when I got into med school. I was like, cool, this medicine thing is cool, but I don't want to be in a position where I'm reliant on a single source of income. And I I I wouldn't have had the terminology to phrase it exactly like that, but it was just these ideas floating around and then reading the four-hour work week made me just completely mind-blown that this is a possibility. So, yeah, I think that was where the kind of entrepreneurial drive came from, the the feeling the need or slash the want to make money. And here we are.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, exactly. It's it's so funny because when I read the four-hour work week, I think I was in the middle of med school at the time. And it was such an eye-opening book to the possibilities of making passive income, but also curating this amazing life for yourself where you do what you want to do, when you want to do. I mean, obviously, you know, you're not literally working four hours a week, you know, you're actually doing a lot more hours, but you're, you know, you're creating something that's sustainable and hopefully leads to generational wealth or at least, you know, a good amount of wealth such that you can achieve your dreams. But I never capitalized on that book. I always sort of stayed down the straight and narrow path until I, you know, must up the confidence to get behind a camera, you know, after qualifying as a GP for a couple of years and actually getting to that point of like, I need to do this because, you know, just been treading water for so long. But it sounds like in your case, you you sort of did it immediately. You read the book and you put into practice what you what you learned about. What like, how did you muster that kind of confidence as a 17, 18 year old?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, so it was actually there were the the the inciting incident as it were was that when I was 18, in the summer of year 13, so just before university, I had been doing a bunch of sort of private tutoring, sort of helping people with GCSE and A levels and stuff. And I'd saved up about 1,000 pounds to and I was like, cool, I'm going to get a MacBook, a MacBook Air for university. I was like, cool, you know, it's going to cost about 1,000 pounds, MacBook Air, sick, you know, it's my first Apple product. Apple products are overpriced and expensive, but like I want to be one of those Apple guys when I get to university, life is good. And instead of buying it from the Apple store website, I was like, can I get it second hand, but get like a beefed up model that has like more RAM or a higher bigger hard drive. And I found some guy on Gumtree, which for our international audience is like the UK equivalent of Craigslist. And he was like, yeah, I'm selling the beefed out the 2,000 pound version of the MacBook Air, but I'll sell it for 1,000 pounds. And so I went to Paddington station to meet this guy, forked over 1,000 quid in cash and got this MacBook Air. I was like, super happy. And then when I was on the train home, I kind of took a closer look at it and realized that it was actually the model that was like four years old. It was like the 2008 original model which had been completely obsolete four years later in 2012. And then that was like probably one of the one of the worst things that's happened to me, which speaks to, you know, I've I've led a fairly privileged life for that to be like a really low point. But that was literally my entire life savings working for three years, private tutoring, like multiple times a week, completely wiped out overnight. And I spent a month, you know, just going back and forth with this guy trying to get the money back, trying to sort of threaten to sue him in small claims court and all this trying to like geolocate his tweets to figure out where he lived and and stuff. And eventually after about a month of this, my mom was like, look, you're about to start university. Here is the money to get a MacBook. I'll just get you a MacBook. Just stop thinking about this guy and let's like, you know, start university with a blank slate. And so I ended up with a MacBook thanks to my mom's my mom's generosity there. But I had this thing in my mind that like, shit, I've just lost three years of life savings. I've lost this 1,000 pounds that I've made. I need a way of making this money back. And it was around the time I read the four-hour work week, around the time I still have an Evernote document from 2012 where I was like, okay, how am I going to make money? I was like, what are the things I'm good at? What are the things I enjoy? And on that list was I'm good at teaching and I did pretty well in like the BMAT, this entrance exam to get into med school and I enjoy making websites. And those three things combined, I was like, cool, I'm going to start a business where I teach people how to do well in the BMAT. And I can make a website for this and then market it nationally because I can make a website for this. And that culminated in the business which ended up being a company called 6Med, which ended up doing really well and was making me something like 30 or 40k a year while I was in med school from like third year onwards. I was like, bloody hell, this business, which I'm doing on the weekends and in the summer holidays is making the equivalent of a junior doctor's salary. And I'm doing it like on the weekends and evenings and that's pretty sick. So that was really the first business that I did after those six years of like threshing and making these shitty websites and failing at it. That was the first thing that really became successful. And that's what that was all of the principles of the four-hour work week I was then applying to that. So when we built like a software product, like a question bank for medical students, you know, outsourced to the Philippines, found some person to do data entry for a few dollars an hour, and you know, following the Tim Ferriss model. And I know these days people are like, well, globalization, exploitation, capitalism, etc, etc. At the time, I was like, bloody hell, you can hire someone in the Philippines for $3 an hour and that's really good for them and it's really good for me. This is a win-win. So I through that business, I had the chance to apply the learnings from the four-hour work week. So it became non a non-theoretical thing and more like a, okay, you know, deal sort of like, you know, define, eliminate, automate, liberate, all that stuff. It's like, let's follow the model.
Dr Rupy: Amazing. It's amazing how you turn that like that episode of adversity into something that grew into a business essentially that supported you through med school.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I sometimes look back and think like, like, you know, Steve Jobs has that thing of like, you know, you can only really connect the dots looking back. But I do remember thinking at the time, I was like, 10 years from now, I want to look back at this moment and say that this moment was the best thing that ever happened to me when I lost that 1,000 pounds. Wow. And I just remember thinking that, okay, if I can really make something of this, then I'll look back at this moment with joy rather than with anguish. And now I look back at that moment as being one of the defining moments of my life where I was like, you know, got to make that money back.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. I mean, like you said, the Steve Jobs quote, I think comes into into play here with, you know, it's it's easy to see it now, but I imagine in that 30 days after that happened, you were feeling pretty crap about yourself.
Ali Abdaal: Oh, yeah. I was like losing sleep over it. I was just like, just, you know, like sort of somatic symptoms of like anxiety and stuff. Just like, what the hell is going on? I've never experienced these feelings before. And I later on, I I watched a few kind of videos on YouTube of people who get scammed because there's all these like people who get scammed out of their out of their life savings. And it sort of that's it's it's a sort of feeling like that, which just feels feels pretty grim, but yeah, managed to get lucky and turn it into like a more of a sort of a fire rather than a kind of chronically depressing moment.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, amazing. Talk us about, talk to us about med school. Like, do people assume that you're naturally smart? Maybe you think that about yourself, I don't know. Would you say that you're naturally quite clever or do you think that you've developed practices and habits that have allowed you to retain information that is very useful with regards to a medical degree?
Ali Abdaal: Um, if I'm being honest, I think it's a bit of both. I think I was pretty, uh, pretty kind of gifted genetically in terms of like intelligence genes or whatever you want to call it. Um, so so that such that when I was in school, like getting good grades wasn't that hard. And I would have to study a lot less than other people. And then the friends I had in school were also like massive nerds and they were in that same boat where they also had to study a lot less than other people. Um, so that was definitely an advantage. Uh, but then when you get to med school and everyone is like that, then at that point, I stopped being top of the year and I ended up being bang bang mediocre. So it was a bit of a rude awakening when my first essay I got back was like 52% and I was like, I have never seen those numbers before in my life. Like anything less than 99% is completely unacceptable in school. And suddenly this essay on how do bones grow with like growth plates and ossification stuff, 52%. What the hell? And I think when I was in school, my identity was very much wrapped up in being that guy at the top of the year. When I got to med school, suddenly I realized, okay, this is no longer a thing. And I needed to find ways to kind of diversify my identity, diversify my self-esteem almost. And I think, you know, if you're enlightened and stuff, your self-esteem and your identity is internally derived, not based on external accomplishments. Uh, I was not enlightened at the time and still I'm not. And so I was like, cool. Now I, you know, I can't, I can't be the top of the year guy anymore. So I need to, I need to do cool things. Like, you know, the website stuff, got into close-up magic. I was like, I'm going to do loads of hobbies. I'm going to become charismatic. I'm going to become confident. I'm going to break out of my nerd image that I had in school and be someone who dresses well and is confident and invites people over and is like a social, social butterfly. So I had all those things as like part of the inferiority complex probably of thinking that I needed to be more than just a nerd.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. It strikes me that you're doing some of those things now, right? So you're getting into fitness, exercise, you're dressing differently, trying to conjure more confidence and stuff. Are you having a similar sort of identity shift in your own mindset or?
Ali Abdaal: Um, that's a good question. I think, I think before the reason I wanted to dress well was because I thought it would make people like me more. And the reason I wanted to have multiple hobbies was because people would think it's cool. And now the reason I want to dress well is because I think it's cool to dress well. And the reason I want to cook is because I think it's a cool skill to have. And the reason I want to, I don't know, learn to sing or busk on the underground or whatever is because it would be cool rather than because other people would think that I am cool. So I think my identity and self-confidence and self-esteem has become a lot more solid over time as I've as I've grown up.
Dr Rupy: So do you feel like you've got a good handle on whether you're doing something because it's good content versus something that you intrinsically actually want to do? And how do you separate the two? Because I personally find it difficult to blur the lines, I think. You know, we've had lots of opportunities to interview different people on the podcast, for example. And I I think, yes, this could be really good content, but actually, is it something that I want to do? Just as an example.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I think when you're in the content space, as you know, it's the sort of the sort of real life and content and business stuff starts to get a lot more blurred. Um, like I think in most traditional jobs, you have the work thing and then you have the life thing. But when you're a creator, it's they they kind of get get sort of mixed together. I think when in my early early days of doing the content thing, even if I wasn't super excited about doing a video, I would still do a video if I thought it would do well. And I think I I decided that the most important thing was going to be consistency, like one or two videos every week forever. And if I don't have a video out that week, I need to pull something out the bag and get a video out that week, even if I'm not super proud of it. I think now that things are going well, I think once things start to be successful, you then have the luxury of being a bit more, um, like, you know what, I'm actually only going to do things that I personally feel excited about. And I was listening to a great episode of the Tim Ferriss show yesterday where he talks about how he built his podcast. And he says that, you know, the way he thinks about it is that he checks in with himself every few months about like, how am I actually feeling about doing this podcast? If I see a two-hour interview on the calendar, do I feel, oh my god, I have to do an interview? Or do I feel excited about doing the interview? And I'm starting to think more like that about things about like, you know, I'm doing this talk for a conference remotely later today. At the moment, I kind of feel a bit like, oh, it's kind of annoying. I have to cut this interview short. I really want to talk to you. Like I really enjoy talking to people in person through the podcast. I don't really enjoy doing Zoom presentations for random conferences. But I said yes to it because I felt compelled to because a friend asked, etc, etc. And so there's stuff like that where over time I'm trying to become more okay with only saying saying yes to the things that are hell yeah and saying no to everything else.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I'm definitely going to use that a lot because I think when I ponder across my own Google calendar, there's definitely things that make me feel, ugh, like I don't want to do that. But there are things that you feel that you have to because of past promises or friends or whatever. And I'm a classic, I don't know about yourself, but I'm a classic people pleaser.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, same.
Dr Rupy: Like I say yes way too often. And I mean, how do you deal with that?
Ali Abdaal: Oh, I say yes way too often. Like literally this morning I was saying to Angus and Dan, I was like, guys, I'm too much of a nice guy. I say yes to things way too often. From now on, any time someone asks me for something, I'm just going to say that Dan manages my calendar. I don't do it. And we then Dan can be the one to be like, sorry, Ali needs to work on his book so that I don't have to disappoint that person. So we're literally trying to create as many systems as we can to be just to just help help me be less of a people pleaser in that context.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I have a similar thing actually. So I've got Karen who basically runs my life, who's, she actually approached me four years ago now, three or four years ago on an email and she was like, look, I love your content. I think I can help, first of all, because you're super busy. And she said, verbatim, and this is great advice for anyone who wants a job generally, is to do the work for free for a month and then show them the value before asking for anything in return. And that's essentially what she did to me. She was like, I'll give you 10 hours of my time for free this month. If you find it useful, great, we can start an ongoing relationship. If you don't, then no worries, we'll just part ways and that's fine. And that and she she literally has, you know, changed my my calendar, my life. And she's my my blocker, my nice blocker. She's very nice, but she she protects me from myself.
Ali Abdaal: Nice. Yeah, like that that strategy was exactly what my first assistant Elizabeth did when she like I I mentioned on an Instagram live story, live live stream that, hey, I'm thinking of hiring an assistant. And she DM'd me like straight after that being like, hey, I'm a medical student. I've, you know, I work a bunch of jobs already. I've got like 10 hours a week or something like that. I will work for you for for free for the first month and then etc, etc. And then I was like, oh, I'm not really sure. It's kind of weird, etc, etc. She was like, look, just give it a try. You've got nothing to lose. I was like, okay, let's give it a go. And then she was my assistant for about a year and a bit and then she ended up getting involved in other aspects of the business. So then she ended up kind of graduating out of that role and doing other stuff. And now she's a core member of our team, which is really nice.
Dr Rupy: Amazing. Yeah, that's definitely the way to go. Um, I was going to ask you about this. So how do you feel about being referred to as a productivity expert? Is that something that aligns with you? Does that something, is that something that you refer to yourself or?
Ali Abdaal: Um, yeah, it always feels a bit a bit weird, um, because I don't consider myself a productivity expert, but I guess I do spend a lot of time reading books about it and reading papers about it and, you know, listening to podcasts about it and making content about it. And I was kind of thinking the other day, like, what is a productivity expert if not that? Like, am I waiting for some kind of qualification? Am I waiting for some kind of GMC or like, you know, the productivity medical council or something? And so it was it was a few weeks ago where I I I saw in my suggested the interview I did with Steven Bartlett's podcast where the title is productivity expert gives advice on how to be more productive. I was like, yeah, I can I could lean into that. And the nice thing about that is that basically not once did we mention that I was a doctor. And even in in in the intro, he introduced me as like a YouTuber, a productivity expert, rather than that doctor YouTuber guy, which is kind of what has been my identity before. I was like, you know what, I can I can lean into being a productivity expert.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, nice. Okay, good. Well, that's good to know because people refer to me as a health guru and I always I always used to cringe and think like, oh, that's not really me. But actually, like, you know, someone who's well read on the subject. But I don't think I'll ever refer to myself as an expert. I think it's just like my ongoing imposter syndrome. How do you deal with imposter syndrome? I'm assuming you you you've come across that.
Ali Abdaal: I know what you mean. Oh, absolutely. Uh, the way I think of it, and I I I don't know where I got this advice. I know where I got this advice from. Uh, when I was working on my book, um, an internet colleague of mine, Pat Flynn, introduced me to this chap called Azul, who's like a book coach. He's a coach for book writers. And I was saying to Azul that, you know, these publishers want me to act like a guru, like a productivity expert and like the way, for example, I've seen a few American author book proposals and they're very like, this is what you should do. It's very like advice giving. And I was like, it's not really me. I don't feel like an expert. And the advice he gave me was, you don't have to be a guru, you can be a guide. And now I'm like, shit. Guide not guru. And so I do consider myself a guide rather than a guru. Like, hey, we're on the same path together. Maybe I'm one step ahead of you, maybe we're alongside. Here are the stuff, here are the things I've discovered. Isn't that kind of cool? Whereas a guru is like, I have all the answers. I've come down from my mountain top to give you advice. And so I lean into being, you know, a guide or a fellow traveler along the same path, at least internally, rather than being a guru. But if someone else wants to call me a guru, then like, whatever. I mean, I'm not going to quibble with that too much.
Dr Rupy: I'm interested in in learning a bit about how you got to that sort of guru status, let's say. So, you know, your first viral video, I think was the one about how you came first in Cambridge, which now knowing that you were sort of middle of the pack is even more impressive.
Ali Abdaal: Oh, God, that was a very clickbait title. So I had a, so when I started my YouTube channel in 2017, this was my the summer of fifth year out of six. I was on my elective in Cambodia. And I thought, okay, at some point, I want to make a video teaching people how to study for exams because I did psychology for my intercalated BSc. I really enjoyed that topic. I gave a talk for the Islamic Society called how to study for exams the evidence-based way. And that Facebook page went viral in Cambridge and had like 20,000 impressions and like a thousand people clicking attending on the event page to the point that they had to take it outside of the tiny prayer room and book an actual lecture theatre and stuff. I was like, there's definitely something there that resonates with people because I remember when I first came across the kind of evidence-based study tips stuff in second year of med school, my mind was blown like why why has no one ever taught me this? So I knew when I started my YouTube channel that I wanted to make a video like that that like goes over all the evidence. But I knew that that's a hard video to make because you want to have graphs and you want to be good. So I was like, okay, if I just make videos for ages, then I'll get good at making videos and then when I make that video, maybe that video will go viral. And so in 2018, that was like the first video that went sort of viral in that it got a few hundred thousand views while I had like 4,000 subscribers. I was like, oh my god, this is incredible. And then I sort of lent into that sort of being the study tips guy quite a lot. And then a year later or two years later, just, you know, decided I was going to make a video about how I ranked first at Cambridge. Now, this was a very clickbait title because it was in my third year, which was the intercalated BSc year where I was doing psychology, which means there were only 70 people in the year group doing psychology rather than 300 people in the year group doing medicine. And psychology was widely considered a quote softer subject and a lot less, a lot easier than pathology and pharmacology and like, you know, the the good stuff. You know, my mom still like takes the piss out of me for this like, God, you did psychology. But in that year, I was like, you know, this is the only chance I'll ever have of going for rank one. Like there's no freaking way I'm ever going to go for rank one in medicine because there's just it's just impossible. I was just completely outclassed by the people that were actually really intelligent. And so that year I decided, you know what, let's just go for it. Let's apply all of the study tips I've ever learned and create a model to figure out how do I how do I game the exam to be able to go for rank one. And at the end, I ended up I ended up actually coming second, but me and the other girl were so far ahead of everyone else that they jointly awarded us the prize for the best exam performance. So all of that stuff made me think, okay, if I do a title of how I ranked first at Cambridge, it is clickbait, but it's also somewhat true. The the annoying thing about that title is that I you know, I come clean about it towards towards the end of the video around the 20-minute mark. But then, you know, it was featured in some like Times article or Telegraph article about medical influencers. And the way they described me was Ali Abdaal graduated top of his year at Cambridge Medical School, which is completely not true. And all my friends were like, um, that's completely not true. I was like, look, I know it's not my fault that they just wrote the headline and it's somewhat misleading, but that was a video that went viral and it's still getting views to this day.
Dr Rupy: You must have got so much slack from your friends for that.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, they were like, oh, hello, Ali Abdaal graduated first in his year at medical school. But you know, you got to you got to play the game.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah. I I agree and I think, you know, a liberal use of titles seems to be the way to I because I I started on YouTube actually myself, but I I found I gravitated to Instagram a lot easier because it was just quicker and I got more traction that way. But I've always wanted to to do a bit more on YouTube because I feel that's a really good medium. Similar to podcasts because you can have a bit more of a nuanced longer conversation rather than, you know, something in a character limited social media platform. Um, I was going to ask about, you're probably already asked a lot about productivity tips. What are your best productivity tips? You're the productivity guru. But I wanted to talk about it from the perspective of something that you're trying to optimize. So I heard that you're trying to get into fitness and stuff. So using everything that you've learned over the last few years and everything that you've read and everything that you've talked about on your YouTube channel that everyone can can go and look up in their own time. How are you applying that to something that you're actually trying to optimize today?
Ali Abdaal: Oh, interesting. Yeah, so, um, a few, a few different ways. So, A, I'm not, I'm still not very good at this. So this is all like a work in progress. But there's there's a few things that are just absolutely absolute game changers. The first one is by creating rules, like default rules. So when I was at uni, I had a rule for myself that I'm not allowed to watch TV on my own. I can I'm only allowed to watch TV or Netflix or whatever if it's a social activity. And that immediately added five hours to my day in terms of extra time that like friends of mine who were less hustly or less entrepreneurially were watching reruns of Breaking Bad and friends and stuff and having a great time. You know, I don't knock them for that. But because I made a rule that that's not allowed, I was doing more quote productive things in my time. And so what I try and figure out is like with the fitness and the health thing, like what are the rules that I can add to my life which will make which will make it far more likely that I will actually do the thing. Because I don't I don't like to exercise willpower. And so yesterday, I decided I was going to make a rule for myself that I'm and and I was telling you about this. It was like 8:00 p.m. I had some friends coming over and I was on Deliveroo looking for some kind of kebab place. I was like, hang on, friends are coming over in 15 minutes. I'm interviewing Rupy tomorrow. I know I want to take this cooking thing seriously. So why don't I make a rule for myself that whenever friends come over, I'm just not allowed to order a takeaway. And so I have to go to the local Waitrose or Sainsbury's or whatever. And so I just ran to Waitrose, got some salmon, got some veg, found a recipe on BBC Good Food, put it all together. And it turned out really nicely and it was so much fun and the food was actually pretty solid. And my friends were like, oh, this is good. And I had I had a lot of fun. Um, and so I was thinking in terms of like, how like what are these defaults? What are the rules? Uh, another rule could be I'm not allowed to order takeaway for my for myself. But I think that's unsustainable because I don't really like cooking for myself because it feels a bit more like a bit a bit kind of a bit depressing. Unless on days where I feel like it, like I really want to try making a steak today. Let's look up one of your recipes or whatever. Um, but at least the rule of no takeaway with friends means that I turn cooking into a thing that I do by default, which is kind of cool. So that's one. I think the other one is actually getting other people involved. So for example, I've been saying for the last like 10 years, oh, I want to get a bit more hench. But it was only last year that I got a personal trainer. And I got more hench. And all the comments in the videos were like, oh, your biceps are looking bigger. Because I had a personal trainer. I had someone who was like holding me accountable for that. I've been saying for the last few years, I want to get better at singing. As of like two weeks ago, I now have a singing teacher who comes in once a week on Wednesdays and we and we sing. So I think having a teacher, having a coach, having an accountability partner, anything like that to just force us or encourage us to do the things that we know we want to do, but that our procrastination gets in the way of. Um, and now like yesterday when my friends were came over, he was saying that, oh, you know, I've been, um, what was he saying? He was like, yeah, I've I've I've been thinking about getting a therapist for a while. I was like, okay, what's stopping you? He was like, oh, I mean, I guess I haven't really. I was like, okay, why don't we just do it now? And he was like, oh, okay. And he he booked a therapist appointment on the school of life like there and then. And sometimes it just takes someone to be to just push you a little bit be like, that that thing that you say you want to do, if you actually wanted to do it, why aren't you doing it? And the other thing I did with my with my friend when applying this yesterday was he was saying he wants to go to church more often. So I was like, are you going to go to church on Sunday? He was like, yes. I was like, which one? What time? Let's put it in the calendar. And then the final nail in the coffin was, what are you going to forfeit if you don't go to church on Sunday? And I was like, will you give me your Canada Goose jacket? And he was like, what? No, that's like 1,100 quid. I was like, okay, will you like, why don't you Monzo me 200 quid right now and I'll return it to you when you send me a selfie of yourself at church. And he was a bit umming and ahhing about it. And then he Monzo'd me the 200 quid, which I've now got in my Monzo and I'm going to return it to him when he goes to church on Sunday. So I think adding in those like levels of accountability for the things that we already know we want to do. Um, and so I I just need to figure out a way of incorporating that into the gym thing, but in a way, hiring a personal trainer is a hack because you're paying someone to be there and then you don't want to let them down and it's more fun and. So I think it's kind of A, having defaults, like rules that you can follow very easily. Tim Ferriss says, you know, what's one decision you can make that eliminates a bunch of other decisions? If you only choose to, like Steven Bartlett does, wear black t-shirts, suddenly you don't have to worry about what you're wearing each day. Um, and how do I figure out a way of incorporating people into it? If you can afford it, then hiring people to do it is amazing, like personal trainers and coaches. But if not, then actually just setting a pact with a friend. Be like, hey, actually, let's hold each other accountable for this thing. Yeah. Those have probably been my two main productivity hacks that I've learned over the last 10 years.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, nice, nice. I there was a website, I think, called Stick with two Ks. Have you come across that?
Ali Abdaal: Founded by two economists who, yeah, I think two MIT economists who wanted to lose weight. And they forfeited half of each, half of their salary to the other one. They said, if if either of us doesn't lose X many pounds by this date, we're going to give the other one like half of our salary for that year. And that was a sufficiently big motivator that they both lost the weight, they both kept it off. And they were like, we should start a website about this.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting story. It's interesting to know, isn't it, what different people's drivers are. Some are more inclined financially. So if there's a financial loss, you know, you're more inclined to do something to to avert that. Other people, it's emotional, other people, it's, you know, other people's feelings about them or their their look or how they're sort of thought of in society. Um, I I because as someone who has seen many patients in clinic, a lot of what I realized I do is actually motivation, motivational interviewing and trying to instil behaviour change, considering all the other environmental factors that we have that are pushing us towards ill health, right? Um, it's not so much about the information. And that's actually been a progression in sort of my thinking and what I do on the podcast and the books as well. It's not good enough to just give people information about why they should be eating better or moving more. It's about how they actually do that given their own drivers and given their own environmental circumstances. Have you found from your experience that people are driven by different things? Like clearly you have drivers, but have you, have you heard of other people's different drivers or have you got any ideas about that?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, we're doing a bunch of research into like procrastination and like why, why is it that we, we know we should do something, we intend to do the thing and then we don't do the thing. Like what the what the hell is going on there? And it's sort of like a balance of motivating factors and demotivating factors. So for some people, you know, for me a motivating factor, certainly in the past used to be, I will do this thing because it makes money and making money is good because all the various reasons, therefore I'll do it because it's fun. I'll do it because it makes me feel good. I'll do it because it makes me look good. I'll do this gym thing because it'll hopefully make me more attractive on my hinge profile. You know, stuff like that. And I think those drivers are different for different for people. But similarly, the the demotivating factors are things like, you know, if a goal isn't particularly clear, if it feels hard, if it feels not fun, if it feels boring, if there is money on the line, all of these are demotivating factors. Um, or rather, if there's money on the line is a is a motivating factor. And so I think it is down to individuals to figure out like which of these are, you know, for this thing that I want to do, what are the main motivating factors? What are the main demotivating factors? Is there a way that I can amplify the motivating factors and diminish the demotivating factors? The whole putting money on the line thing, to be honest, I think it applies to everyone. It's just a very blunt and it's it's quite a harsh instrument. Like if you had a, like, I don't know, if if I see to you, hey, I'm I'm interested in taking better care of my health. And you were to challenge me be like, okay, let's let's put your money where your mouth is. If you haven't gotten six-pack abs by June, you're going to pay me 150,000 pounds. I'd be like, oh shit, okay. And that sort of that sort of thing would work on me. Whereas if you were to say, I don't know, if a patient has really been struggling with their weight, there are a lot of emotional drivers that get in the way, being like, all right, you know, if you really want to lose weight, put some money on the line. It's it's not the right tool. That requires a little bit more of a a nicer, a nicer approach. So I think the putting money on the line applies, you know, for the kind of the tech bro type of person that's like, you know, but there are lots of other things we have to consider when when when trying to do behaviour change as you know.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I I I totally resonate with that. I mean, for me, I love rules, I love defaults, I love, you know, whittling down things into the smallest actions and I can I can sort of tick those off my list. I know BJ Fogg talks about that in his book, Tiny Habits, and James Clear is a big sort of proponent of making things as small as possible so you can, you know, achieve those and that gives you that little dopamine hit and hopefully, you know, motivates you further. But I I guess people come from this at different points because what I'm trying to do with something like healthy eating, the benefits of that are cumulative. It's not something that you will have tangible benefits with after week one. It's really something that you invest in now, very much like a pension to have benefits later on. And that's not very, that's not sexy, is it?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, whenever a reward is far in the future, it just completely saps our motivation to do it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. And so I'm I'm wondering about ways, some of which you've just described there, in which to motivate people further such that they can make the behaviour change today. And it feels good, it feels indulgent, you know, it feels that something you actually want to do.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah. Yeah, I think I think part of part of the answer to that as you've probably have figured out is like, like for me anyway, finding a way to make it fun or finding a way to make it more short-term, short-term. So I know ultimately healthy eating is going to reduce my sort of visceral fat deposits when I'm like 40 or something like that. Okay, fine. But I also know that cooking healthy, tasty food makes me feel good right now because it lets me lets me think, oh, I've made this thing. I can post it on Instagram. I can send a picture to my mom. I can send a picture to my girlfriend. I get like, oh my god, well done. I can invite friends over and be like, oh my god, this cooking is actually really good and it's kind of healthy. Like there's all those like dopamine hits that you get right now which serve the long-term goal of not having visceral fat deposits when I'm when I'm older.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I'm going to remember that. That's great. Uh, let's talk about leaving medicine. Uh, you were very frank about, um, you're very frank about a lot of things, like your revenue and like, uh, actually, let's talk about that first. I want to talk about the sort of openness and the the vulnerability that you you put out there. I remember one of my friends who's a, um, she's a gynaecologist, she sent me one of your videos about how much you money, how much money you make in a month and all that kind of stuff. I was like, this is brilliant because no one ever talks about this kind of stuff, particularly in the UK, I've noticed. Where did that confidence come from? And how do you, how do you get over sort of the the natural inclination to be reserved?
Ali Abdaal: I've thought about this a lot. Like my my family often, you know, when I talk to my grandma, she's like, Ali, I saw that you posted another video talking about money. Like, you know, evil eye, you know, why are you doing this? Like. And.
Dr Rupy: I'm glad you talked about it because that's an Asian thing, isn't it? Like, oh no, don't tell anyone what will other people think and yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah. Um, I think for me, it was a few different things. Number one, I think like I've benefited a lot from other people being honest about their income. So when Tim Ferriss talks about it, I mean, he's not massively frank about it, but in four-hour work week, he talks a little bit about revenue. People like Graham Stephan, people like Pat Flynn, there's these sort of finance type of bloggers and business type people that when they share revenue numbers, it's like, it it makes it real that I'm making $10,000 a week a month selling courses. What? You're making $10,000 a month selling courses? You're making $100,000, $100,000 plus a year selling an online course that you did the work for for two days and it took a freelancer two days to edit. What the hell is going on there? That would take me three years as a medical registrar to make $120,000. Like, and that's like pre-tax. Like, what the hell is going on there? Um, and and so and it was me hearing stories like that, you know, the website called Indie Hackers that has a podcast that interviews people who have built profitable internet businesses from their bedrooms. You know, there's this guy who sells domain names for a living, making $400,000 a month. Like, oh my freaking god, that's just absolutely insane. How is that even, how is that even possible? Um, so that was a big thing that really helped me. Um, secondly, I think I do like, I knew that it was clickbaity content. Like people, there's always this thing of people wanting to know. And so I think being having a lower, have sort of being being more open is in a way a competitive advantage when you're trying to stand out in a crowded crowded space on YouTube, you're trying to get the clicks, you know, you're trying to play the game. If you're the person that's saying, here are the nine different streams of income that are making me $27,000 a week, oh, and by the way, I'm a doctor on the side, kind of thing. It's just inherently interesting content. And so and I think if you can deliver on it with nuance and class and not like a clickbaity, scammy, sign up to my course kind of way, um, people will then think, I clicked on this because I was intrigued and now, wow, this guy's actually legit. Like this this makes a lot of sense. Um, I think that's part of it. I think there's also, you know, the, you know, there's always hidden selfish motives behind everything that we do. Ultimately, you know, the book here, the The Status Game, everything we do is a game to try and acquire social status in some capacity or another, whether we're honest about it or not. There's another really good book, The Elephant in the Brain, that talks about how we systematically ignore kind of like the elephant in the room, all of this selfish motives we have for doing things. Like, why am I really on YouTube? Is it because I want to help people? Or is it really because I enjoy the status, the fame, the prestige, the money, the power, and all of this kind of stuff? And I think what I realized is that being open about money is a thing that I'm personally comfortable with, more or less. And it does kind of tick that box of like, you know, acquiring more social status because it lets me flex my wealth in a way that like lets me act as if I'm doing it for the sake of others, but really maybe I'm actually doing it internally. I don't really know. I think every like everything is multifactorial and there's a bunch of reasons for doing all the things. Um, I would I would I would say for me the main one behind the how much money I make is that it just it does seem to be genuinely useful for people. And I've had a bunch of comments from people being like, oh my god, like that video made me realize I should start a YouTube channel and then I committed to it for a year and now I'm I'm able to quit my job. Uh, I even had a friend who watched that a video where I talked about money. He was struggling in medicine. He left medicine to start a side hustle, posted consistently on like Instagram, Tik Tok, YouTube for two years and he's now making more than he was as a doctor. And it's like stories like that where I think, you know, that kind of clickbaity, slightly uncomfortable content of like, here's how I make X amount of money per year is actually genuinely very helpful. But also the videos the videos do well. It's quite fun to make them. It's one of my favourite topics to talk about. It's like all all of the factors line up to make these videos really good. And I wish more people did them personally.
Dr Rupy: I I yeah, no, I wish they did as well. And I've got to commend you. You're you're very authentic with this as well because you're talking about the narcissistic elements that drive us to do that kind of content as well.
Ali Abdaal: We're all status seekers at the end of the day.
Dr Rupy: We are all status seekers. Like even myself, you know, having a little blue tick or, you know, doing a bit of TV.
Ali Abdaal: It's good. Having your face on the book covers.
Dr Rupy: On the book.
Ali Abdaal: I would cringe hard about having my face on a book cover. But you probably did as well initially.
Dr Rupy: Trust me.
Ali Abdaal: Now here we go. 3, 2, 1, Doctor's Kitchen.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, exactly. Even with the next one, they wouldn't allow me not to take my, I really didn't want to put my face on the next one, but I'm sort of wedded to it now because it's been.
Ali Abdaal: You worried that, oh, what are my friends going to think? They're going to think I'm one of those narcissistic doctor twats splashing my face over everything. But most people don't actually care. Like literally the first time I've thought of I've thought of that, but I can imagine what you would have felt because I'm imagining if they wanted to put my face on a cover, I'd be like, fuck, don't do that.
Dr Rupy: Yeah. The number of images as well it took to get that as well. That was literally over 200 of like me holding a bowl in slightly different ways and standing up and different t-shirts and stuff. So yeah, no, I'm glad we're talking about that because it's part of the, um, the this weird world of social media that doesn't really get talked about. Like, oh, I'm not narcissistic. I'm just doing it for the for the good of helping other people.
Ali Abdaal: I'm just helping people out. Yeah.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. But there is that slither and for different people, it's to different amounts, but it's inherent in all of us. And you know, we're all vain, narcissistic people at some level.
Ali Abdaal: Exactly. Yeah. And I think like the interesting thing about that is that, you know, and and this is what Will Storr talks about in the status game and the authors of the elephant in the brain talk about this as well. Like we all have different ways of playing the status game. So someone might be watching or listening to this be like, oh, what a bunch of tools. I would never splash my face on a book. But their version of of playing the playing the status game is something else. It's flexing a backpack, it's flexing a bag, it's flexing a computer desk setup, it's flexing certain clothing, or it's choosing to actively go against the grain of all of that. And their way of flexing status is by saying, you know, I'm not one of those people that cares about social status. I would never buy a Louis Vuitton bag. And that becomes their way of getting social status. The whole keeping up with the Joneses thing. You know, maybe it's not splashing your face on a book cover, maybe it's getting a fancier car than your neighbour, slightly bigger house, slightly nicer interior design, like all of that stuff. Kids going to certain hobbies, kids getting awards. We're all playing a status game. I think we just need to be honest about it. But I think, yeah, the nice thing to recognize is that, yeah, we all have those motives. That's fine. Um, ultimately, if that's the only motive, it's not satisfying. And so I like to stack up motivations for all the things that I do so that it's never just a, am I really, am I only doing this for the sake of social status?
Dr Rupy: The refreshing honesty is very much appreciated. I want to ask you about, um, what we're witnessing particularly over the last year and a half, I think is is this call out culture, this outrage culture, people from anonymous, you know, bases or accounts or whatever, commenting and stuff. You've obviously going to have your fair share of negative comments. I'm not really talking about trolls. I'm talking about people who have that sort of moral imperative or perceived moral imperative to call people out and say, you know, what you're doing is narcissistic, etc, etc. It's not a good thing. What are your thoughts on that?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, it's not nice. It hurts. I see the comments and I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, I get it. Um, the comments that have truth to them are the ones that hurt the most. Um, like, you know, the comments that are like, oh, you know, two years ago, I used to enjoy your content when you were authentic, but then as you've been making more money, you've you've become a sellout. Now you've got this arrogant, narcissistic streak about you. You flex your wealth in a way that you didn't before. I miss the old Ali. It's comments like that that I'm like, oh, that's probably kind of true. And it feels bad because whereas if someone was like, you know, your typing speed is slow, it's just like objectively not true. So go away. That's not going to affect me in the slightest. Um, but yeah, the whole the whole outrage thing, I don't know. It's it's it's hard sometimes. Like, sometimes in these podcast interviews, there is there is stuff I wouldn't talk about, um, you know, for the whole fear of cancellation. Like fear of cancellation is a genuine risk.
Dr Rupy: Absolutely, yeah.
Ali Abdaal: And it's kind of annoying and I do kind of respect people like Joe Rogan that are kind of cancellation proof. Uh, but yeah, you got to you got to play within the Overton window, I guess, of what what's acceptable to say.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Seeing whether someone, I mean, he's sort of going through the process right now and we're going to find out whether he is cancellation proof or not. But this whole cancel culture, I think is very interesting because I look at things that or topics that I would like to talk about, but it's it's hard to in this world, I think. And I'm always going to be towing the line between, you know, what's going to get me in trouble and actually what my truth might be as well. It's interesting to know that you're you're potentially in a similar situation about subjects that you wouldn't talk about.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I guess it's even harder for you though, because you've you you're still trading off the brand name of being a doctor. So you've got all the GMC stuff to worry about. You're talking about health. When it comes to health, you know, why are people overweight? Can't talk about that. Obviously, it's, you know, not that it's not out of choice and it is in fact out of genetics and medical conditions and stuff and stuff and stuff. But there is probably a little bit that's out of choice. And it's like, how do you navigate that space as, you know, a doctor who's supposed to be nice and friendly and not being a dick to people.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. It's funny actually because I've noticed, uh, within the the community of medics on social media, they're not willing to even use terminology that like obesity, for example. I just find that very strange. I mean, we lean into it. We talk to people from all different sides of the coin about obesity and, you know, the benefits of calorie restriction versus it not all of it, all being about calorie restriction, but it's a very hard, and that's just obesity. We're not even talking about things like vaccines and and other elements that are just like super controversial. But I mean, I I just stick to fruits and vegetables. That's for me.
Ali Abdaal: Three fruits, two vegetables on a platter or something.
Dr Rupy: Let's talk about leaving medicine. Do you feel that's freed you emotionally, I guess, from like, you know, the pull of you being a doctor such that you can talk a bit more openly about other subjects or is that not really affected you?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, I don't think the fact that my GMC license is paused has affected the way I talk about things. Um, yeah, but I think I think it has freed me, it's freed me mentally in that before I had made that decision and announced it to the world that I'm leaving medicine forever, I would I still convinced myself and my mom that this was a temporary thing. You know, I'm just taking an F3, everyone takes an F3. Oh, it's just an F4, everyone takes an F4. It's all good. Um, whereas now and and so every day I'd I'd sort of be thinking, spending some amount of brain power thinking, am I really doing the right thing? What if I'm going to regret this further down the line? Could I just do less than full-time training? You know, will people stop following me if I stop being a doctor? So currently I can still call myself a doctor because I'm, you know, I'm taking a break. Whereas now if I quit completely, then now I'm not a doctor, I'm a former doctor. Is that is that interesting? Am I just a dude who talks about productivity on YouTube? What am I going to be doing when I'm 50 years old talking about productivity on YouTube? What the hell's wrong with that? Like, like what's what like that that that seems really bad. Uh, and so all of those thoughts were going through my mind. And so ultimately when I made the decision, it did feel like a bit of a, I can stop worrying about this now. I can lean a bit more into uncertainty. And yeah, I don't know what I'm going to be doing at age 50 when my friends are going to be consultants or GPs or whatever. But that's actually fine. Like, I'm sure I'll be doing something that's fun and interesting. And if not, I can always just go back to medicine if I'm really desperate for that something to do and that something to do involves being a consultant at a hospital or being a GP.
Dr Rupy: It's a weird one, isn't it, with medicine? Because, uh, within sort of the community of medics, when you leave, it's almost like, I don't know if this has been your experience, but certainly I've heard from other people, it's like you've left, you've left the community and then you're shunned from it. Whereas, yeah, so like if you left and went and to work in the city, you know, you're just chasing the money, you were never really altruistic. Whereas I I mean, I've interviewed a few people in the past who were previously, you know, marine commandos and in the army for 10 plus years and stuff. When they go to a different career, it's almost like celebrated. It's like, yeah, you did your duty, you know. They don't see it as like this sunk cost that you can't ever retrieve or that, you know, that sunk cost is going to prevent you from leaving. Did you did you ever have that sort of thought process about, you know, the amount of time and effort that you put into it? Because I imagine that was probably a common, a common view.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, the whole sunk cost thing is a is often a common question. I think, you know, I've read thinking fast and slow. I know I know that the sunk cost fallacy is a thing and it's just a dumb way of thinking. So I always like, you know, countered my, you know, natural inclination to think in terms of sunk costs with the knowledge that it is in fact bad to think in terms of sunk costs. It's interesting you have that experience because most people that I've spoken to about this, but I guess I guess these are the people who would say to my face are the ones that are like, oh my god, you got out. Congratulations. It's like you've escaped the prison almost. And maybe maybe behind my back people are like, oh, not an altruistic bone in his body. He's just chasing the money, etc, etc. And that's fine as well. But they don't tell me that to my face. So I don't really see much of it.
Dr Rupy: Okay. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, most of my colleagues are like, pat me on the back and like, yeah, absolutely. And actually, I get some really lovely comments from people, especially given that I've been working up into this point. But I think it we're in a slightly different, um, a different position because I'm very much, it's very much tied to the brand, Doctor's Kitchen, I guess. Whereas Ali Abdaal, I think you've you've given yourself room to explore.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, if I called myself Dr Ali or Dr Mike or something, it would be a lot harder to break away from that.
Dr Rupy: It'd be a bit different. Yeah. I am, I heard you talk on one of your previous podcasts, um, about how you balance happiness and productivity. And early on in your career, you were always making that trade-off as to whether you should go to that party or make content or whether it's going to be interesting enough and and I wonder like now given that you're so busy and you've got all these different income streams and you have a team to manage and an office and all the rest of it, how do you make that balance between things that are there to enlighten your soul like spending time with friends, for example, and being productive?
Ali Abdaal: Interesting. I think even in the early days, there were very few trade-offs I was making for happiness for the sake of productivity. And I think my whole model has been, I will do stuff if it's fun. And if it's not fun, I'll find a way to make it fun if it's something that I know I want to do. And so yes, occasionally, if it's like an essay deadline, I have to hand it in tomorrow and friends are hanging out, I'd do the essay because the deadline's coming up. But I remember when I was running, you know, I think this was a few years ago, I had some friends visiting from like America, they were in my room and I was stuck dealing with customer support for our BMAT course we were running the following day because the freaking course books didn't get to the hotel in Manchester on time. And I was just like, oh my god, like sitting on my laptop trying to fight this fire while my friends were just sitting in my room being like, what the hell's going on? And I, you know, thankfully there were very few moments like that. But that was one of the moments where I was like, okay, I need to create the sort of life where this this is not allowed to happen. Like productivity is all well and good, like work is all well and good. But for me, like in in med school, work was always the the lowest priority. It's kind of like when you're when you're playing a video game, I don't know if you like in in like World of Warcraft and stuff, there's like a a priority of rotations. So like when your hammer of wrath is available, you use it and then it cools down for 45 seconds. When your avenger's shield is available, you use that. And when you have nothing better to do, at that point, you use your basic attack. And to me, like studying or working is the basic attack and everything else is more important. But I think what that means is that if it's like an evening and I'm not socializing or doing anything fun, I won't just sit there and watch Netflix. I will do something that looks like work. But then if you make the stuff that looks like work feel like play, that also feels fun. So now the to like there are genuinely like I think I think for the last last few years, there have been so few things I've done that I haven't enjoyed. And I think that's that's something that I'm really trying to explore with this book that I'm writing that like where did this idea that work equals suffering come from? And like no pain, no gain. You got to suffer for it, etc, etc. And like in a way this like almost that you are sacrificing happiness to be productive. And to me it's like that like it it felt a bit weird when you said that because I was like, I don't think I did. I think I was happy hanging out with friends. I was happy doing productive things. In fact, I would define productivity as like spending your time intentionally. And therefore it is productive of me for me to hang out with friends for three hours last night, trying to get one of them a therapist, cooking for them. I would count that as being productive because it's the thing that I wanted to do and I and I did it and added added value to my life.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I guess it's that mindset shift, isn't it? Like when I'm doing customer support right now for three hours at 5:00 in the morning, uh, my first impression of that was like, oh my god, what am I doing? Like this is not scalable. I can't believe I'm having to do this. You know, I'm meant to be doing the content and all the rest of it. But actually, it's almost like I I I'm trying to shift my mindset to the point where I'm enjoying doing it and I'm lucky to be able to do this and it's, you know, all part of the the grand plan. And maybe there are some elements of hustle culture that have come to sort of come to fruition, like enjoying the grind. You know, this is a very typical Gary Vee sort of saying, isn't it? Like you've got to enjoy the pain of the grind.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think enjoy the grind, like the thing with all of these kind of pithy, tweetable phrases is that they they miss out a lot of nuance. And I'm sure Gary's position on this is more nuanced, but like I think broadly enjoy the grind is is good advice. But in a way, kind of not even thinking of it as a grind. Like it's a grind waking up at 5:00 a.m. and working at a coal mine. Like, okay, it's not really a grind like answering customer support emails and being like, oh my god, all these people, you know, like the thing I have like, oh, do I have to reply to all this fan mail? All these people are emailing me being like, oh my god, your stuff has changed my life and I have to reply to them. Like, you know, the fact that I would consider that as like not a good thing is just weird and I need to reframe my mindset to go from a I have to do this to I get to do this. And then the next stage is I am blessed to to do this, which I haven't I haven't quite gotten to yet. I'm still in I get to mode.
Dr Rupy: You you mentioned, um, Islamic Society, Pakistani Society. Are you spiritual? Do you?
Ali Abdaal: Dabbling.
Dr Rupy: Dabbling?
Ali Abdaal: Yeah.
Dr Rupy: How so?
Ali Abdaal: Trying trying out the whole meditation thing. Read Waking Up by Sam Harris. Uh, tried the app for a bit. Um, I mean, I'm I'm intrigued by the spiritual stuff, like yoga, meditation, psychedelics, all that stuff that, you know, the the tech bro starter pack getting into spirituality almost. I'm intrigued by all that stuff, but I haven't really done anything with it to kind of experience enlightenment or anything.
Dr Rupy: Was religion part of your upbringing at all? Was it?
Ali Abdaal: To an extent. Um, I think I kind of went a little away from it at university. And, um, I don't I don't usually talk about religion because I feel like people have strong opinions, but I mean, my position is that if I can't justify something with evidence, then there's no reason for me to believe it. And currently it's very hard for me to justify Islam with evidence. So I'm still in a not really sure stage.
Dr Rupy: In a sort of limbo stage. Yeah, I understand that. Um, I want to talk about future aspirations to to wrap this up. So, you know, five years ago, I imagine it would be hard to imagine that you in this situation right here where your job is interviewing people and you get to do all this kind of stuff for fun and you have all these different passive streams of income. What are your aspirations going forward? And do you actually practice that sort of manifesting or looking five years in the future and and trying to curate what the life looks like in the.
Ali Abdaal: Yeah, so I've I've done these sorts of exercises a few times and I've always found them useful. And I always think I should really do this more often. Um, there was this one like almost guided meditation that I did a few months ago working with a life coach of all things, uh, where it was just like a 20-minute long thing, just like close your eyes, imagine yourself a few years from now, what's your house looking like? What's what's happening? And I was like, I was like, okay, you know, I'm going to give this a go. I'm an actually kind of skeptical guy. But afterwards, I was like, damn, this is really good. I did I didn't know that these were all things that I wanted. That's kind of cool. Um, the other the other interesting thing I like is is the Odyssey plan, which is this idea that you kind of project yourself five years into the future and you write in great detail what does your life look like? Like what is a day in your life look like? And then you go back and now you say five years in the future, what does my life look like if I took a completely different path? And then you do it again, what does my life look like if money and what people thought was not a concern? What does that look like then? And when I first did that in December 2019, I remember I was working as an F2 at the time. Um, I did that exercise and I realized that the the path I was currently on was leading me to being a fellow at Cambridge, being a part-time anaesthetics trainee, having done ACS and all those all those pathways, doing some supervisions on the side and doing some YouTube videos on the side. And I saw that and I was like, it just doesn't seem like that that exciting. I was like, oh shit, you know, this path that I was on is now now when I think of being in that position, I can totally imagine it. I can see it's very doable, but it just doesn't seem that exciting. And then that was sort of almost the beginning of the end where I was like, huh, I wonder what else I could be, what else I could be doing. So I guess kind of aspirations right now, I do think a lot about, you know, what does my career look like five, 10 years from now? Will I still be doing the YouTube thing? I like the idea of being an author. I think the sort of lifestyle that people like Ryan Holiday have seems kind of cool where every few years you publish a book, you read about things that you're interested in, you do things you're interested in, and then you write about it and you spend your time reading and writing, which is kind of fun. And so if I think of the the things that I care about, it's spending my time reading, writing and teaching. Uh, and I think if I can, if I can do that long term, then life is good. Uh, the the other thing that gave me a lot of clarity was, um, I don't know where I came across this, but this idea of what do you want written on your gravestone? And for me, it was like some combination of good father, good husband and inspirational teacher. And it made me realize that, oh, okay, interesting. Like the thing that I really get joy and meaning out of is teaching. It's not practicing medicine. It like I had I had 10 times more fun teaching medicine than practicing medicine. So I think probably for the foreseeable future, I want to do some kind of teaching type thing. Um, but being fairly agnostic about the details of what that looks like because who knows.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I like the spiritual side of you, Ali.
Ali Abdaal: Wait, is this is this spiritual?
Dr Rupy: I would say it's a bit more sort of, you know, the way you talk about manifesting and and thinking about things in the future and being intuitive about what you actually want to happen and and see. I would say that is sort of, yeah, the element of it.
Ali Abdaal: Sick. All right. Don't realize that counts.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. More content.
Ali Abdaal: More content ideas. Yeah, spirituality. Although we actually did a a little survey about this podcast, our deep dive podcast and spirituality was the lowest ranked topic in terms of things that people care about. Because I think especially if an audience skews like slightly younger and slightly more like tech bro entrepreneur, spirituality is the last thing they care about. I feel like a lot of the tech bros get into spirituality once they've had their big exit. And they're like, oh, let me now get into this thing.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, like Jack Dorsey style. Yeah, yeah.
Ali Abdaal: What I I think there's actually merit in someone from your position who is naturally skeptical, scientific, um, obviously medical background, going into it and and going into this sort of element of, you know, content if you want to call it that with that sort of skeptical eye. I think that would be very interesting. Someone who hasn't had that massive exit, someone who hasn't, you know, got the privilege and the time to, you know, go and see Sadguru and get teachings from all these different yogis around the world and stuff and spend 200 days in a yoga camp and all the rest of it. I think that would be, you know, it's also like practical spirituality. Maybe it's your next book.
Ali Abdaal: That's a great title.
Dr Rupy: Sick.
