Dr Rupy: When we have fixed expectations for life, like life has to be like this. We kind of cause ourselves so much pain because when life diverges from the expectation we had for it, in that gap our emotion rises and that is often the trigger for our inner critic to go, see, see, you're not good enough because if you were, you would have got that job. You're not good enough, otherwise see that person wouldn't have broken up with you or you're not good enough because you would have got this and whatever the gap between expectations and reality is, is where often our kind of like uber negative beliefs can fill.
Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.
Dr Rupy: I am super excited to have Poppy Jamie on the show this week. She is such an inspiration to all entrepreneurs out there and has accomplished so much in the space of just a few years of hard graft. And as you'll hear on the pod today, she's got a beautiful way of translating wisdom for a wider audience. And our conversation touches on William James, Carl Young, Shakespeare, Victor Frankl and many more. There's just so much you can learn from history. And if you find a way to be just that little bit more aware every day, I promise you the benefits accumulate. Poppy, if you don't know her already, launched the Not Perfect podcast and the Happy Not Perfect app after four years of aggregating behavioural studies and developing the app with neuroscientists, researchers and Pippa, who is a psychotherapist and her mum. Her debut book, Happy Not Perfect, Upgrade Your Mind, Challenge Your Thoughts and Free Yourself from Anxiety is already a bestseller. And it's here that she introduces an approach to stretch our minds that she calls the Flex. And I mean she talks about this on the pod today. It's all basically about creating new healthy thought habits to overcome challenges whilst making us a bit more psychologically bendy. And I just love that, the thought of being psychologically more flexible. I think it's brilliant. Poppy was also appointed as the youngest member of UCLA's Stewart and Linda Resnick Neuropsychiatric Hospital advisory board to consult on the well-being of students. And she's also taken part at the first mental health talk series at Cambridge University. She's lectured at UCLA, Wow Summit on Brain Health. She's done a ton of things. I just know you're going to love this podcast. And do check out Eat, Listen, Read, my newsletter that you can find on the doctorskitchen.com where I send you a recipe to cook for the week as well as some mindfully curated media to help you have a healthier, happier week. But for now, on to the pod.
Dr Rupy: I've had a few episodes actually where I didn't know too much about the guest, we'd never met them in person, and then I'd done some research and I'm like, oh my god, I love this person. I can't wait to talk to them. And I think I had this actually with you. And this is where I want to start off with actually, because you've done your Ted talk, which I thought was brilliant five years ago, kind of prophetic because you were talking about Vines in 2016. You were talking about Vines and the amount of time that we spend on average on our phones. I think at the time it was like an hour and a half. It's like now it's like three, four hours or something. It's become a lot worse in terms of like how homogenized we are with our digital devices. And and through that, you know, obviously your app and stuff, you do a lot of things. So my first question is, how do you put into practice what you talk about and what you do on a daily basis?
Poppy Jamie: That is probably the million dollar question. That is such a good question because I would say that everyone I've met in this kind of work, which is talking about healthy mind habits, whether that be meditation to spending time off technology, and it is you realize it's so much easier to say than to do. And so I even in 2015, I think, when I started realizing how addictive Instagram was and I did that Ted talk, which it which I I look back on the other day, I thought, wow, six years ago and nothing has changed. We're still if not more addicted than we were. And even though most people know that it has detrimental consequences to their mood sometimes. So for me, I think it's really important that I slow down because when I get into a cycle, and I definitely think I'm a bit vulnerable of it now because the pandemic is easing and so suddenly old schedules are coming back or trying to come back, I would say. And I'm having to really consciously choose what I say yes to and what I say no to because no wasn't in my dictionary for a long, long time. So no is something I'm really learning. I'm a recovering people pleaser and and it's when I get too fast is that's when I get into bad habits again and I wake up to Instagram and I go to sleep with catching up on emails and so it's when I slow down, I have the time to go, actually, you know what, you know you don't get a good night's sleep when you're on Instagram or when you're doing emails just before you go to sleep. Like, put the phone down, get the book out, get the journal out or whatever. Um and just go back to these things I know support my well-being better. But yeah, the speed of life is a is a big factor.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, huge. I mean like for me, I I'm a classic people pleaser as well. I'm so glad you said that. I wrote an article, well I wrote a paragraph, a couple of paragraphs in my newsletter recently about people pleasing and the power of saying no. And I've been trying to exercise this a lot more recently and you know the freedom it gives you, that that block in your diary that is now open where you can actually start practicing, you know, the things that you talk about all the time or just having a walk or, you know, listening to a podcast that's very relaxing. Like that is infinitely more positive for you and other people around you as well. So the power of saying no is so, so important. And I I'm guilty of of not doing it enough myself.
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, it's so interesting. I um, I have a friend called Adam Robinson and uh he kind of predicts, I guess the future in some ways, kind of a behavioural um, kind of analyst. And he always says that in life, things are either poisons or elixirs. They can't ever be neither. And uh, and it's so interesting, like something either makes you better or it makes you worse. And I think Instagram for me is that. It's like better, okay, I get to catch up, maybe I can receive some news there, maybe I get a bit of inspiration, maybe I'm learning about something that's happening culturally. And then, okay, is it becoming a poison? And in that moment, I've got to really like pull it back. And it's kind of the same with people. I find that, you know, the people we spend time with are either kind of slightly poisons or elixirs. Like do they make us feel really good afterwards or do you kind of leave going, oh my god, did I should I have said that? Should I have said this? Like, oh, what did I mean by this or whatever. And that kind of like feeling of anxiety. And um, I've been trying to kind of explore that, kind of just again, like consciously going, did this make me feel better or did this make me feel worse? And slightly just kind of like chipping away at life creating one that makes me mostly feel good.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. It's a kind of a precarious relationship that I have with social media because on one hand, it's the reason why, I mean, it's the reason why this podcast exists in its entire, it's the reason why I wrote my books and and all that kind of stuff. So I've got so much to be thankful for it. But at the same time, it's it's you're right, it's uh, you know, how much you dedicate yourself to it, how much you allow yourself to be influenced by it. Um and with uh the current state of algorithms and what is being shown to us on a constant basis, we have to really recognize how to use it even more so today. Um because you can find yourself going down into into rabbit holes and comparisons and fear of missing out and all these sort of things that have now sipped into our vernacular because of social media.
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, you know, too much of something is always um a I guess a precarious and can be potentially like destructive thing. And that's what I definitely then that was my experience and really led to quite um uh chronic mental health issues actually. I think I just was like overwhelmed with this with this kind of comparison and just assuming that I was failing at life because I was, you know, obviously we all upwardly compare and uh, you know, we're not only just comparing ourselves to, you know, our friend down the road, but now we're comparing ourselves to the entire world. And I just generally don't think the human brain was ever created to hold this much information. So I think we are suffering from infoxication, that kind of the the too much information being fired at us. Um and also I I I always have to remind myself that Instagram is a pinprick because it is a as we know, it's that snapshot, but yet we've got no idea what's happening in the rest of their lives. Like and I find this, I find this like with life in general. I like life is like snakes and ladders. Like somebody might be, you know, they may have like landed on a square that's a ladder up, you know, up 10 squares, but then, you know, you've just landed on a square that's a snake and you're down five, but then suddenly you've got no idea in a week if you're going to hit a snake. And I find that Instagram kind of like stops that, you know, game board in its tracks every single day and we kind of compare ourselves to something that's constantly moving. Um so it's bizarre that we do it, but we all do.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I love those two analogies, the uh the snakes and ladders. And and what I've noticed actually is people are warming a lot more, at least in my little bubble on Instagram, because everyone's in their own little bubble and their own sort of, you know, echo chamber. Um but certainly what I'm seeing people warm to is the authentic nature, the the uh the unfiltered uh aspects of people's life. Like I I've put some posts up whilst I was working um uh in ITU and and A&E during the pandemic of me just like snacking on Haribos, you know, and there's something and people are like, oh my god, he eats unhealthy food. I'm like, of course I eat unhealthy food. I mean, you know, it's it's there at the end of the ward and everyone's like stressed out their minds and they just need to eat on the go and stuff. Like this is reality. And I think showing reality on a platform that has been traditionally uh uh used to demonstrate aspirational qualities of life or where you want to get to, I I think is breaking the mold and people really do respond to that.
Poppy Jamie: Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. We are definitely seeing a shift in how people are using that platform. But it's the other thing um is it is Instagram is highly contagious because fear is, as we know, emotions are so contagious. So it is a precarious thing because we open it up and we've got no idea what what content we're going to see. And that is the addictive nature of it because are we going to receive that validation that's going to kind of mess with our brain chemistry and make us feel good, but then also make us feel bad. Are we going to be, you know, given a positive quote or are we going to be given, you know, a potential post of us feeling like we missed out on a friend's gathering or something. And um, and that kind of like the unknown and the unpredictability of it, um is uh, yeah, is is something that uh is I think it's definitely confusing for the human mind. So the other thing I kind of try to do is like make sure that I'm in a good place before I go on this platform because then it means I can, you know, observe any sort of content without with managing my kind of emotional relationship with it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I I don't know if you've heard recently, um but China have uh banned gaming um for more than a certain amount of time for uh under 18 year olds during the week and then I think it's like a maximum of three hours at the weekend. It's a it's a pretty hefty ban. Um and and I I wonder if they're actually onto something. Like my first reaction was, oh my god, that's so authoritarian, you know, this is like very typical of a dictatorial state. But actually, are they actually investing in the uh in the uh uh mental health of the yeah, mental health of the of their younger people. And it's almost like, you know, because we know Instagram and social media are drugs essentially, we we need like that bartender who who knows when we've had too much and advises us not to have any more. We we almost need that sort of virtual barrier there. Like what I wonder what your opinions on that are.
Poppy Jamie: Um I think I probably share the same as you in the sense that initially you're like, oh gosh, that feels quite kind of like parental state-esque. But at the same time, there is also uh I I know this there's clinics being set up in China to help people get off game addiction. Um and um and and also I guess there's been no regulation for the creators of these games either. So I'm not sure where the regulation should lie. Should it lie with the people that are creating it? Because or should it be with with the consumer, especially under 18 year olds. Um and I think it's it's become from what I know, I don't have children, but with my with my friends who are parents, it's become a real struggle in managing their children's gaming habits and putting boundaries, you know, and and and it's causing such frictional relationships where, you know, there's constant fights because because a lot of these games are social too. So you don't want to stop your child from socializing if this is the way that they're expressing themselves. Um and but at the same time, you obviously want them to explore lots of different parts of the world and be outside and get all the benefits of like getting vitamin D. So I can see it's a real like contentious thing gaming, but you're right. I mean, maybe this is a great step for the government to protect mental health, but I guess it's um it's really difficult to kind of like say one policy for everyone because we are all so different with our mental health. There's some people I'm sure and also there's now some people making money from gaming. So again, are they restricting people's ability to make money? I mean, it's a really delicate and I'm sure kind of highly complicated uh matter, but from a mental health standpoint, um anytime we can take ourselves off technology is good because there's just so many benefits to being outside and being active.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I I listened to a bunch of podcasts with a whole bunch of techies um who have been in the industry for for years and and they're parents now. And uh unanimously, they're always like, yeah, we we don't allow our kids to use social media at home. We we we have very clear limits on the amount of time that they can spend on the internet. And even in that program um uh that you might have seen on Netflix, I think it was called the social dilemma. Uh they did like this little Q&A with some of the creators of uh the like button from Facebook and a whole bunch of other and they were like, oh yeah, no, no, we don't we don't allow our kids to uh to go on social media at all. So there's this sort of like recognition amongst the creators of the platforms that this is not good. Um and and they're being very strict about it, but with everyone else it's kind of like, oh okay, well, I don't think we appreciate the potential negatives um particularly at such an influential age. Um and even at an adult age, I'll be honest, uh a lot of the news um is uh is focused on negativity because that's what sells. We are basically products of what we are more likely to click on, which is why in certain uh news sites, you know, it will show generally um negative news. And that trains our neural networks to be more alert and uh a lot more um well basically like a heightened anxiety response. Um and that's why I've actually stopped looking at news sites myself and actually only looking for positive news cycles. You'll be generally aware of what's going on because people are going to tell you, but I'm actually trying to train my own neural networks uh to be a lot more responsive to uh the positive aspects of what's going on in the world. I wonder if that's something that that you do yourself or or how you tolerate the news?
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, no, I mean, absolutely. Our subconscious brain, I think is we don't realize how much we're receiving all the time from the world around us. And the fact that, you know, we've now moved from physical threats into psychological threats and the the kind of like brain processes that were, you know, brilliant in in helping us um keep safe from physical threats, like running away from lions and tigers, are now being so overactivated and our emotional system is being completely hijacked by um by the by the by the psychological threat of the news. For example, if you just look at um uh very recently, um the incredibly sad news about Sarah Everard. Um and the fact that, you know, there's now so much media around kind of, you know, women being safe on the streets. Now, I obviously want to take into account that, you know, the world isn't um, you know, the world isn't completely safe, but at the same time, I also want to take into account that you can follow one news agenda, like just following news about Sarah, and my belief system could change into the world is scary and then my confirmation bias moves into trying to find evidence at all times to confirm my belief state that the world is scary. And I think when I started to understand how the brain works, that, you know, our belief system is really the filter um of of how we interpret reality and that can make the world more scary if we want it to be, but also if we set our belief system to say, okay, you know, obviously there are, you know, tragic things that can happen, so keep your eyes peeled, but on the whole the world is safe. I have a much more enjoyable interpretation of reality. So I think it's really important for us to consciously ask ourselves, like, what is the news making me believe? And is it the whole truth or is it a part of the truth that I am then taking into the whole truth? Um and um and to know how vulnerable we are. Um for example, everything that unfolded with Afghanistan, I became glued to it, absolutely glued to it. And I didn't sleep for days because I was like, because it was the first time in history we were really watching something unfold in real time. I could go onto Twitter and I could watch civilians videos and it was literally like we were in our own worst movie. And I thought to myself, wow, can our brains hold this? Um and again, like trauma is contagious because of course we're social creatures. So I think and I really had to make sure that I took a day off following this world crisis just to remember that actually there was nothing I could do from sitting in London and um if you're kind of a highly sensitive person like I am or or an empath or someone that kind of like deeply like feels other people's emotions, I think it's even more important to know that about yourself and then to also um um to know when your ability to change things, like where the edge and the edge is a blurry, but kind of being lost in the emotion of it is not necessarily helpful for them or you.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I think that's so eloquently put. Um especially the the things you said about confirmation bias. It's it's it's quite unfashionable I think today to say that we live in a relatively safe world. It's it's got infinitely more safe over the last few decades, but if you look at the news cycle, you'll be convinced of the exact opposite. Um and the real-time nature of being able to uh witness what's going on. And of course, we're we're I think we're quite naturally voyeuristic creatures, which is why we're addicted to like reality TV and stuff and we, you know, we love following people and and spying on their uh their every move like uh through through our phones and stuff. It's it's uh it it's no wonder that we have this um uh this obsession uh and and it can create negative spirals. I know that for myself as well. I have to like constantly stop myself uh by taking like enforced 15 minute breaks whenever I'm on social media.
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, well there there's a great quote, where um emotion goes, attention flows. So if we were sitting in a restaurant and somebody started shouting, immediately the entire restaurant would be looking at it. And so that is why if you look at EastEnders, for example, or reality television, there is so much emotion, so as a so as a consequence, we're glued. But um, you know, emotions are really important, but when we're driven by them, feeling them, and that's what I write about in my book a lot, feeling them is critical, acting upon them is not. And um, and I think sometimes the news can heighten our emotions, kind of like make us feel very aroused, and then we and then it does that mean we are short with the person that spills coffee over us? Does that mean that we're more likely to get into confrontation? Does that mean that we are just on those kind of again, like edges of heightened emotional states and it turns us into like emotional creatures rather than rational creatures. And I think that point is where my work has definitely been like very focused and how do we kind of like use all the wisdom that we have within us uh rather than being too much driven by emotion.
Dr Rupy: I I I want to talk about your book actually, but before we do that, can we talk a bit about your your uh upbringing and and uh how emotions or thoughts were sort of brought up in in your family environment? Was that something that you were quite open about or is this something that you've had to uh learn yourself as as you grew older?
Poppy Jamie: So I was um, I grew up in an odd environment, I guess, because on the one hand, my mom was a psychotherapist and on the other hand, my dad had chronic stress, anxiety and, you know, experiences of depression. So, um it was this kind of like, I guess almost like an experiment because my mother would try out all these different like tools and tips um to help manage my father who is the ultimate, I call him like stiff thinker. Like it's not going to work and kind of until it does. And my mother is a lot more kind of like open-minded and so, you know, even before she was doing her psychotherapy, like I remember when we were really young, she was like a Reiki healer, so she was like interested in energy and she would Reiki heal our animals. And I I I think that was when I realized the power of energy in our ability to heal when you see Reiki healing on animals because animals can't lie. They can't go, just to make you feel good. Yeah, this feels really nice. I feel relaxed, you know. Animals are either relaxed if they feel relaxed or not if they don't. And we had this parrot, which was a really bizarre choice, I think of my little brother who wanted a parrot like for years and so finally my parents were like, all right, we'll get a parrot. Um and um and I remember this parrot would just like squawk the whole time. My mother would just like bring her hands uh just slightly around this parrot and um he would he would just fall to sleep. Just close his eyes and be totally zenned. And uh and that was really interesting to um to to kind of to see. But um I think like with a lot of parents and kids, you even though your parents are talking such great advice and giving you such wisdom, you do not listen until you are kind of forced to listen often by life circumstances that suddenly you go, what did you say? Like, oh shit, I should have followed that years ago. And so, um I kind of almost followed in the same footsteps of uh footsteps as my dad. And it was this super hard work ethic that we were really conditioned by. It was like, if you can work hard, work harder. And so that was like very much like the like kind of like what we were taught as kids. Like, you know, dad works really hard, dad works really hard. And so at 12, I just was like, I almost became a workaholic. I was would revise longer than any hour I could, you know, find any hour under the sun to just like work, work, work because in my eyes that was my route to like freedom, acceptance, like, you know, financial stability. Um but that taken again to an extreme is really what we were saying at the beginning of this podcast, like, look, working hard can be an elixir, that can be great, but when taken to extremes, like with anything, it can turn into an addiction and it can turn to be highly detrimental. And that's what happened to me. I I mid 20s had a total crash. Um so I think hopefully that answered your question.
Dr Rupy: No, yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the the crash, can you can you speak on that a bit more actually? I mean, I I think um, I think it'd be really helpful actually for for people to to understand what what you went through and how how you managed to come out of it.
Poppy Jamie: Well, I kind of just got to a point of absolute chronic exhaustion. And I again, my brain wouldn't even recognize I was tired. It was my body that that gave up on me. And um I was so extraordinarily bloated and for months and it was so painful and yet um I just even kind of like refused to even look at that. I'd like totally disconnected my mind and my body and this was really my route to why I got started in in in this work because I um I was so fixed on achieving my goals that um my immune system crumbled. And um I ended up being really sick and um lost energy for not just a week and I'm a high energy person, but this was like eight months. I could barely focus on an email. It was I almost got terrified of my emails because it caused such a cortisol stress overload. And um and when you when you do get to the point of like, I guess kind of chronic exhaustion and almost a bit of a breakdown, it um it surprised me how long it took to heal and how and and how how much it actually really took me to slow down because we get set in our ways. Um and so yeah, that was kind of like happened like mid 20s and I'm in a way grateful for it happening at such a young age because it forced me to then go, shit, what did my mom say? She told me to slow down and actually really learn these psychotherapeutic tools to change how I was thinking and approaching life.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, your your mom sounds amazing. Her name is Pippa, is that is that right?
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, yeah.
Dr Rupy: Pippa sounds amazing. Uh I was just reading a bit about her and stuff and uh and and how much influence she's had on not only on you but also the app and and everything else as well, which is brilliant. Um there's a couple of things I wanted to bring up actually. So when you were talking about Reiki, um I remember when I was working in a uh pediatric hospital down in Brighton, we had an incredible ITU consultant. Um I forget his name now. I should really reach out to him again because I I'd love to to talk to him about this because uh at the time, I hadn't gone through my own medical issue that led me down the path of looking at food as medicine, mindset as medicine, sleep as medicine, etc, etc, and all the other lifestyle interventions that we have. And I remember he would arrange for a Reiki healer to come into um the HDU, which is the high dependency unit of of the childhood hospital, the children's hospital that I was working at. And he would offer to the parents who were stable kids, you know, they weren't on oxygen machines or anything like that, but stable. Um you know, would you like a Reiki healer to come in and, you know, they spend a bit of time, they don't touch the children, they just, you know, put some music on and some relaxing sounds. A lot of the parents loved it and they felt so much energy, not not just energy, they felt lifted, they felt like they were being listened to, they felt like they were getting more than just the medicine, which is obviously very important. And I remember having a chat with him uh about, you know, the evidence behind it. He said, look, there isn't any evidence about it. There there isn't too much, but the belief system is so, so important. And it brings me to how you your stress was related to your immune system and how that uh was the result of resulted in bloating, resulted in a whole suite of other symptoms that we don't really think about from the perspective of our mind and how powerful our minds are. So I I'm really glad you brought that up because I I get a lot of people asking me, particularly as my persuasion is food, you know, what can I eat for bloating? How do I get rid of this symptom? A lot of the time, psychological insults are the root of what their physical elements are. Um and and I think, you know, that anecdote is is really testament to that.
Poppy Jamie: Completely. I mean, I learned it the hard way too and I tried to follow every diet and I tried, you know, everything and then and and then I another thing what you that on the surface you go, well, that's really good to be exercising all the time. But me doing hit exercise, really intense exercise was the worst thing that I could have done for my bloating because it was just even more stress I was putting under my body. And so one of the things I've definitely learned in the last kind of um six years since I really kind of had that um that experience was low intensity exercise and walking and slowing down. And I often I got told by a friend of mine, she said, exercise in the way that your life isn't. So if your life is really intense, make sure that your exercise is gentle.
Dr Rupy: That's so good.
Poppy Jamie: And I was the opposite. I was like intense life, trying to set up a company, like I've got to work harder, like, yeah, I can, you know, what, you want me to be there at 3:00 a.m.? Absolutely, I'll be there. And like, I only got two hours sleep. No, I can do that. I can do that. People pleaser plus workaholic. Oh my god, recipe for a disaster. Um and um yeah, so the low intensity exercise and breath work and again, these things that I would eye roll, like, oh, can't be that helpful. Um just and I remember I went to this breath work class and oh god, I cried for like seven hours after doing it. And I thought, God, this is really odd. Like I was just breathing. Why am I crying? This is so strange. And they said, you know, 40 years of therapy in 40 minutes in these kind of in this really intense breath work classes. And it inspired me so much. So I trained to be a breath work instructor. And that was then when I started to learn that only through diaphragmatic breathing, so belly breathing, do we actually start stimulating our digestion again? Having and I suddenly realized that because I'd been so much in my fight and flight, so much in my, I'm under psychological threat, like all day, every day, rather than just kind of a little bit of stress because as you know, you can speak far far better to this. A little bit of stress is good. But when it's all the time, my digestion was like, why would we digest food if we're running away from a lion? We're just going to not digest our food. Yeah. Um and and it's pretty painful after a while.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, everything is um sort of in balance, but we like to pigeon hole things into into into binary attributes like um, you know, exercise is good. Ergo, I'm going to do as much exercise as possible. Actually, everything has to be in balance and flow. Um it's like the concept of uh plant hormesis. So when you consume turmeric, for example, you're actually eliciting a mild inflammatory response and that uh the the um response of your body is actually generally an overall anti-inflammatory, which is why it has an anti-inflammatory effect. So it's it's just this this lovely balance of um of how a little bit of harm can actually do us good. It's like exercise in itself. So you're actually during the process of exercise, you're you're causing uh muscle shearing. Um that's actually a very pro-inflammatory uh thing that you're introducing. However, the overall benefit over time is anti-inflammatory and it actually creates resilience. And so it's it's again, it's this a concept that I think more people need to understand um to to really to to really hone. And then once you understand that, then you realize, oh, okay, it's like not too much, not too little. It's it's the middle way. It's very Buddhist, I guess.
Poppy Jamie: So true. And it is, it's a daily practice for us to kind of tune in with ourselves and our body. Um and our current world that's telling us to kind of like do, do, do, go, go, go is like often the opposite of just like be. And flow, flow, flow, flow. And that's been a big learning. How do I move from go, go, go to flow, flow, flow? Um to kind of like realize when it feels good or feels too much. And sadly, pause and slowing down is the only option.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's if only it was so easy. Um I want to talk about this uh this concept or the the concept of being psychologically bendy. Um and and the flex that you that you write about. Um tell us a bit about that because I I love I love the the the visual of that almost. It's you know, my brain is like, you know, being plastic and it because it is plastic, you know. Um so yeah, talk to us about that.
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, so when I was writing the book, I really it was kind of how do I take the last six years of research, speaking to just world experts on how I can live a psychologically healthier life. And the concept that just made so much sense to me was psychological flexibility. This idea that, you know, and I think Shakespeare said it, you know, nothing's good or bad, just our thinking makes it so. And when you look into kind of like how the brain works, we get stuck in thinking patterns. And one I kind of shared, you know, with you during this podcast of and and for the listeners, like I got stuck in the thinking pattern that working hard was essential. And there was no movement or there was no kind of like bendiness in that. That was my belief system and that's what I did. Like and another kind of like very stiff thinking is looking at the news, like the world is dangerous. And then we get stuck in that belief system that the world is dangerous and then suddenly our confirmation bias is on overload trying to find all the different pieces of evidence to confirm the world is scary. And so this idea of flexible thinking, um and the flex method is to break the habits of stiff thinking that we have adopted from maybe our early childhood memories, our early childhood experiences, but also we can adopt kind of stiff thinking in at all different times in life. And um and nothing is absolute. And I'm this is nothing new I'm saying, like this really comes from uh the work of uh Dr. Stephen Hayes and acceptance commitment therapy and um and gosh, like William James at the beginning of the 20th century, when they looked um at when we have fixed expectations for life, like life has to be like this. We kind of cause ourselves so much pain because when life diverges from the expectation we had for it, in that gap, our emotion rises and that is often the trigger for our inner critic to go, see, see, you're not good enough because if you were, you would have got that job. You're not good enough, otherwise, see that person wouldn't have broken up with you or you're not good enough because you would have got this and whatever the gap between expectations and reality is, is where often our kind of like uber negative beliefs can fill. So flexible thinking is about being constantly bendy. It's like a constant flow. It's like having ultimate acceptance of what happens, but also set intentions, like go for goals, but then be bendy with whatever happens.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I know you had a conversation with Mo Gawdat, um a couple of episodes ago on your podcast, and he talks about the uh happiness equation being the difference between perception versus reality. Your perceived levels of happiness compared to what your understanding of reality of your happiness is and how that uh the disconnect is the root cause of whether you're happy or unhappy. And I and I think that really does speak to that. Um and it's basically about changing your perceptions uh of what the present is and being aware of that. Um which I I think is is fantastic. I mean, how how do you introduce this? Like what are what are some of the exercises that you do personally or that you've heard work for other people that you can instigate on a on a daily basis?
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, so the the first person who ever came up with that equation was this guy called William James in the early 20th century. And um what I find incredible is that all this incredible research that was done and like all of these observations made and I love Carl Young as a as a as one of the best kind of like, I think early psycho um psychoanalysts. And what he kind of like said about, you know, our psyche, um and um and so the flex method, which I write about in the book to help us become bendy, help us to kind of minimize that gap between reality and expectations is um is through uh four steps. And the first one is connection, the second one is curiosity, third is choice and fourth is commitment. Is it would it be helpful to go through some of those steps?
Dr Rupy: Let's do it. Yeah, yeah, go for it.
Poppy Jamie: Okay, so like the connection step is something I've kind of spoken to for a lot of this episode, which is like, how do we reconnect the mind and the body? Um because within that step, we're able to feel our emotions, which is absolutely critical because our emotions have so much wisdom, but we then allow give ourselves that pause so we don't have to act on them. Because when we're driven by emotion, we're driven by like the most primitive version of ourselves. But feeling them is, as I said, like is the first step to be able to access like our wise brain, the rational brain, which is like, you know, like the the brain that we really want to be working out of. And um and so I use the diffusion technique, which comes from acceptance commitment therapy, which is just a small sentence like, today my mind feels and then you label how you feel really honestly. And I just love this. It's so simple. You remind yourself today, you remind yourself emotions are just temporary. You say my mind, and again, that diffusion because you are not your mind. Um so my mind feels like this and then you label your emotion because research has found that those that label their emotion actually diffuse the impact of that emotion. You actually reduce the kind of that kind of emotional center from being on on overload. And and then in that connection step, taking time to connect to the body, would that be, okay, 20 minute walk, would that be just a micro flex, which is kind of relaxing your shoulders down, unclenching your jaw, taking a belly breath. And in that moment, what you're doing is signaling to your brain through biofeedback that, okay, I am not in a physical danger. I there is no physical threat right now. So I can actually tone down, like deregulate my my nervous system to take me into the rest and relax so my prefrontal cortex, that that computer side of the brain can start switching on. The curiosity step is like critical in really helping you navigate that gap between when life doesn't turn out to like how you want it to. Because you actually ask questions, um um you you start to challenge your negative thoughts. And I call negative thoughts, well I don't, it's been it's it's called in kind of like psychological terms, automatic negative thoughts. So I call them ants. And our negative thoughts really are like an ant infestation on our brain. They can be such a nuisance, they can be painful and like one after the other just doesn't stop wriggling around. And there's loads of different automatic thoughts, um automatic negative thoughts that can plague our brain like all or nothing. Like if I don't get this, then this is going to happen or fortune telling like, oh my god, I know things are just going to turn out terribly. Um or over generalization like, oh, that happened, then everyone like that is terrible. Um or like paralysis by analysis. Like, oh my god, what did they mean by that? Does it if I said this, does it mean they don't like me? Like and I'm the worst at paralysis by analysis, by the way. Um but when you bring curiosity to the to the party, you start asking questions like, is this thought true? If I don't get this job, does it mean I'm a complete failure? Is this true? Okay, let's go through that. Can I be 100% sure this is true? Well, I can't be 100% sure this is true. If I don't get the job, then I'm going to be a total failure for the rest of my life. I can't be 100% sure. I think it's true, but I can't be 100% sure. How does this thought make me feel? Well, insecure, my worst self, like a just just just awful, um no good, not good enough. Well, who would I be without this thought? If I don't get this job, I'm a failure. Well, I would be fine. I'd be happy. Without the thought, I'd be totally okay. And suddenly we realize through curiosity that it's through our thinking is often the root of our suffering. It's our thinking about something, it's our the meaning we place on a meaningless event is what causes our suffering. Oh, and that was someone who really inspired me through all the those questions, um they're not my questions, uh they're from Byron Katie, who is this amazing author who I've like followed for years. Um and then you move into choice and you're like, okay, I may not be able to choose to be happy in this moment, but how can I choose to be kind to myself? How can I choose to treat myself like I would someone I cared about? And I use I use questions like, what would I advise a friend experiencing what I am now? And the reason I like this is again, rather than working out of the emotional brain, which is like, how what should I do? What should I do? And our emotional brain is activated. When we ask for a friend, we tap into a different part of our brain, the computer side, because we're asking for that rationale, problem solving part of the brain, and we're able to tap into our wisdom by just using a different question. And then we move into lastly, commitment, like, how can I commit to looking for like the the the growth nugget in this? Like rather than why is asking questions like, why is this happening to me? We switch to what can I learn from this? What is unfolding? And and for me, that was my route from to minimizing the gap from like taking myself out of stiff thinking, taking myself out of conclusions and assumptions and moving into value-based compassionate thinking, flexible thinking.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. That sounds awesome. I'm going to be, I'm I'm literally taking notes here because these are things that I'm going to start doing in the morning myself. So the the two things that really um speak to me are the connection, so actually labeling your emotions. I don't think I do that enough actually because I kind of I think to myself, oh yeah, I know kind of how I'm feeling and I know, you know, I'm a bit on edge or I've got these deadlines and I'm feeling a bit tense, but actually writing it down or labeling it like vividly, I think is is really, really interesting. And there is research behind that, like you said. And the whole biofeedback as well. So I I did a a pod with a friend of mine who's a breath teacher, um and uh immediately he was like, I know you're tense because your your shoulders are up here, you're breathing up into your chest and uh I'm trying to instigate this uh in my daily routine. So like every couple of hours, I'm like checking with your breathing. Like how are you breathing? I I I have a standing desk, so generally my posture is okay, but I tend to like uh uh breathe up into my chest and I have apneic episodes when I'm like doing email, like I literally hold my breath. I think it's like quite a well-established phenomenon now. Um but the labeling thing I I think is fantastic. And choosing how you would discuss uh that emotion with a friend, what advice you would give to someone else is a really, really uh great way of practicing self-compassion because I think we all beat ourselves up, particularly if we're, you know, pretty aspirational or we feel like, you know, we should be achieving things. Um that that's that's fantastic. I mean, compiling all of this, you you've done a lot of this in your app as well, um where I I believe step one is like labeling your emotion. Is that is that right? How how how was the process of creating that app? Because like we were talking about uh off air, I'm in the process of creating my app as well. I know how bloody difficult this is. How you kept your head and this is three years ago when you launched yours as well, on Android and iOS. Like how like how what was the process like putting that together? Because it's a beautifully simple app and I think the mastery of something like that is making it look simple when it's actually very, very complex. And and also how you put all this stuff into practice yourself.
Poppy Jamie: Yes, so the app was my I just really resented everybody telling me when I was stressed to meditate because I was like, oh for Christ's sake, I just don't want to meditate. I've got so much energy right now. The last thing I want to do is sit down and close my eyes and. And so I suddenly thought, right, I am going to, you know, in my like exhausted state, when I suddenly was like, okay, the only person that's going to get me out of this mess is me because I got myself into it. My thinking got myself into it. And um and that's when I just and I am that sort of person that when I'm interested in something, I want to turn over every stone. And I then thought, okay, well surely there must be an app out there that could help you do your kind of mental gym exercises in less than five minutes. I could do it on the way to work. I didn't need to close my eyes. I could just do it when I'm in an emotionally hot moment. Um and so that's when I developed the happiness workout and the sleep wind down and then we just launched the manifesting workout. And it's just kind of the basics of the science of happiness, the basics of positive psychology and it is really simple and writing a grateful diary again feels like I'm telling people the sky is blue. Um but the research on it is amazing. Like after six weeks, participants of research studies found their happiness increased by 10%. And you're like, 10%, that's actually quite a lot. 10%, like, God, if I had an extra 10% at school, it'd be like C to an A. Um and um and um and I thought, but the but we talk about all these things, but oh, you know, knowing me, I'm so disorganized, lose the grateful diary, then be absolutely terrified if someone's reading it. So I thought, well, how do I put this all into an app? And again, I said this is quite a long time ago. This is like 2016, 2017, um which um it was all quite new, like Headspace and Calm had just launched. Um but um so yeah, so so the app was just this game of how do I turn it into a game? How do I turn the mind into the game? And rather and just like you and what you do with your work, how do we turn this information into something that's actually fun? Because it can get so heavy talking about just a body part that that yes, it can be really troubling and can be really challenging, but bringing some degree of like fun and lightness and just bright colours to um a conversation was really the mission in changing the brand that mental health had on it prior. Um but the process of creating the app was so challenging. It like I remember just thinking to myself, I'm such a fraud. I'm building a happiness app and I'm just so unhappy right now. And there I am like doing my breathing, I'm doing my grateful diary and I'm still calling my mother being like, oh my god. Um but put it this way, like I would have been worse had I not been doing my own app. Um and you know, I I think that's important to know the limitations of this work. It's absolutely critical. Is it the solution? No, because to your point, what are you eating? How are you moving? Like we can't do anything just one thing to make ourselves feel healthy and happy. It's just, you know, are we seeing friends? There's just so many inputs that an app can't give you, but um I hope that the app was, you know, a great tool just to turn the things we know that are good for us for our good for our psychological health into something that was easy to use.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, totally. I I think, you know, the marginal gains of uh little tools like that do compound over time. And I think we need to, you know, we live in this instant gratification world right now where we feel like we can get everything at the touch of a button, you know, we can get our food delivered to us in 15 minutes, we can have, you know, likes and and and and uh information at the at the swipe of a finger. Um whereas actually what makes us happy requires time and you have to put that effort in. Just like I think you've used the analogy yourself, you you go to the gym tomorrow, you're not going to be able to run a marathon the next day. You have to really put effort into it. And I think teaching that to to the younger generation as well as reminding the uh millennial generation that that's how it should be uh is something that your app does really, really well. Um so and and it's brilliant. And and like I said, like, you know, it looks simple, but there is a lot of research behind it because you've you've engaged neuroscientists, psychologists, you have an incredible expert team as well um with a whole bunch of sessions on it. So it's um it's it's fantastic and it's it's growing as well.
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, thank you so much. We it goes to something like 19 million teachers, parents, students because um it um especially when the brain is that young, it's amazing for kind of like teenagers to just learn these tools, I guess, just to process their day. Um and um and so yes, so so it is growing and and I and and it it makes me so happy when I've when I've heard the app has been helpful for people and that is really the kind of um that's why, that's why I did it really. I'm I'm I'm to be honest, it's not my natural skill set to set up businesses even though I have, like it really like took me um out of my comfort zone. Um I'm the worst manager. Um just so I really, really had to kind of just like get to kind of parts of myself that were definitely like not the most natural. Um but again, I think that's something I learned about happiness that it is it's happiness often takes us to really uncomfortable places, but actually through that uncomfortable place is where we find like a really juicy like nugget of happiness afterwards. Um and definitely the app was like that. It's been some really, really quite like challenging like moments um setting up any business. I'm sure anyone who has a business listening to this can agree, like anything can go wrong at any point. Um but it is really incredibly rewarding.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm going to have to ask you for some tips after this. Uh as you know, because the like app building is is uh is hugely stressful. Um just to wrap up, what are you reading right now?
Poppy Jamie: Apart from I'm sure you're not reading your own book. You wrote your own book, but what what are you reading? Oh gosh, I'm actually reading so many books. I'm reading this incredible book called Whereafter because I'm fascinated in um I'm fascinated in exploring a new meaning of death, which sounds very odd, but I just think that just in our culture in general, we don't talk about something that is so relevant and prevalent and all around for all of us. And so there's this beautiful book about all these uh just these anecdotal um stories of like what happens like after life and um I mean, I'm quite spiritual in general, but I I do think that, you know, Einstein said that energy doesn't die. So, um I just think it's kind of beautiful to see life as this ongoing energy source and uh and the fact that our loved ones never really leave us. So, um that is the book. It's an unusual book, but I really, really I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying it.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I'm definitely going to check that out. I'm uh I'm I'm rereading um The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari uh by Robin Sharma. Yeah, uh I was inspired to to read it because uh I read his 5:00 a.m. book club, uh no, 5:00 a.m. club, the 5:00 a.m. club recently. And that really inspired me. So I started waking up at 5:00 a.m. like every day.
Poppy Jamie: Have you? What do you do in your hour?
Dr Rupy: Oh, so I basically, I I get up, I have uh like a litre of water.
Poppy Jamie: Really?
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I I I it's This is why his skin is looking so good, everyone. I uh so it's it's something I developed actually when I was a junior doctor because when you started on the ward round, you weren't drinking water until like 2:00 p.m. and you know, when when you'd finished your jobs and everything else. So, um to counter that, I I got into the habit of drinking water, like a lot of water really early on. I'd need to go to the toilet halfway through the ward round, but that was fine. As long as I was hydrated because I I I felt that was having an impact on my um cognition in the afternoon. So, yeah, I have my water. I do a meditation, which I'm really, really religious at. Uh I have to do my exercises because what kind of what kind of meditation do you do? So, so I mix it up. So I have a mixture of transcendental meditation, um a mantra-based uh med. Um and sometimes I use guided meditations as well. So I've used, I've experimented with three apps in the past and I've I've found that um Sam Harris.
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I find like all men I know love Sam Harris.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. I just I just it's just very simple and very stripped back and um I just I just like, you know, how he punctuates the meditation very, very gently. I've found some others are a little bit too overbearing in terms of their guidance. So, uh but I've done Headspace, I've done um uh I've done 10% happier with Dan Harris. Uh I've done some calm in the in the past as well. Um and then I do uh stretching. So I've had a long-standing back injury since I was 15 uh when I used to play tennis. Um I had pars defect. And so every day I have to be very religious about like exercising so I don't have any physical pain. It doesn't it doesn't debilitate me in any way, but I'm I'm really religious about that. And um journaling. So journaling is a relatively new thing that I've been uh really, really good at for like the last 18 months. I think I I started during the pandemic. Um it's one of the the the positive aspects, I guess, of the pandemic for me personally is uh is journaling because it's kind of given me um space to write out my feelings and look through my affirmation list, um which has been really useful for me. It's a constant list I always go back to. And uh I I don't know if you've spoken to Tara Swart on your podcast?
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually write about her in the last chapter of the book for the future.
Dr Rupy: Oh, epic. She she's amazing. Um she uh has become like a mentor for me as well over the last year. And um ever since I I spoke to her, I I I started my my vision board. And so I look at this vision board and it has like my app on it, it has an office, uh the office is like, you know, it's it's uh it's decorated with lots of greenery. There's obviously a big kitchen in there. There's a big uh lunch table with um everyone who works there who always eats at the same time. Um there's a whole bunch of other things as well, like, you know, my my books and and what I want to do in in TV and stuff like that. So I'm I'm constantly like training my my neural networks to believe that this is going to exist at some point in the future. Um so yeah, that's what I do in my my hour. I love it.
Poppy Jamie: That's a great hour. That is a great, that's a great hour. Maybe I'll introduce the 8:00 a.m. club for for everyone who can't have to have an hour, but just maybe a different, I don't think that the 5:00 a.m. club, but I I have actually read that book and it's um it's really, really brilliant, really brilliant book.
Dr Rupy: Yeah, I love it. And it the the way he talks about awareness and um uh your thoughts being the most important aspect that you have and how we we don't in in modern society, obviously, your your app and your books are obviously trying to counter that, but in modern society, I think we we throw away our thoughts. We don't really think about um taking control of our emotions. So like, you know, a simple example is if you're walking down the street and um there's dog poop on the floor, that really annoys me. I've got a little dog, we're very religious about obviously cleaning up after it. And so to see someone else who hasn't taken that initiative and dirtying it and making all dog owners look bad is really annoying, but I'm I'm training myself to not be negatively uh I know it's a very small thing, but not be negatively um influenced by that and just think, okay, well maybe they didn't realize or maybe they forgot or maybe they uh the the the dog ran away and they're chasing after them. You know, you you to your point, you you're uh tricking yourself into um making sure that your brain chemistry is aligned and in balance rather than assuming the worst in people. Um and it's uh yeah, it's really effective. I'm so glad you talked about. I mean, we you've literally taken us through a huge journey through like William James and like Shakespeare and Carl Young. I'm writing down all these things. I'm going to be writing all this up for the newsletter next week.
Poppy Jamie: Yeah, the other person and then the other I would say the other person who's just unbelievable is Man's Search for Meaning. Um Victor Frankl who I um who I try to read his book like at least once a year because you know, like and flexible thinking was really inspired by him and his quote kind of between stimulus and response, there is a space and within that space is our freedom. And it's just so true. In that space of, okay, seeing the dog poop, in that space of going, hmm, let me connect to myself, let me ask me a question, can I choose, how can I commit to having a more of an optimistic view of life for like better brain chemistry? In that space is how we choose our freedom, freedom away from little annoyances that just drag us down, make us boring because we're complaining and all of these things. Um and and I just I I I think, wow, if we can all take ownership of that space between stimulus and response to choose our response in a way that we want to live our life, I'm like, wow, that is the road that's not always easy to find, but that's the road to our healthiest, happiest life.
Dr Rupy: Epic. I mean, that's the next on my reading list now uh to to find Victor Frankl. I'm going to put links to all of this on the show notes as well. There's going to be a long list of show notes for that. That's brilliant. Poppy, you're so inspirational, honestly. Um to everyone listening to this, I'm sure they're going to be absolutely uplifted by everything you've said. So, thanks so much for spending some time with us today and uh and we'll have to do this again.
Poppy Jamie: Yes, I'd love to and you've got to come on my podcast. I'm honestly, I'm I'm dying to know more about like especially food medicine because it's something that we don't speak about enough and it's like basically the foundation of our happiness. So I can't wait to be grilling you next.
Dr Rupy: Epic. That was a terrible pun. I didn't even mean it. That's awesome.
Dr Rupy: Thank you so much for listening to today's pod. I hope you really enjoyed Poppy Jamie on the show. She is such a pleasure to host and do check out her book, Happy Not Perfect, as well as the app. It's fantastic. I think it's brilliantly and simply curated and crafted. It's it's wonderful. And like I said at the top, do check out my newsletter, Eat, Listen, Read, or sometimes it's Eat, Watch, Read, or sometimes it's Eat, Listen, Watch. You get the point. Um you can find it on the doctorskitchen.com uh and I also obviously send you a recipe to cook as well and uh all the mindfully created goodness and all that good stuff. So you're going to really, really enjoy it. Do sign up and I will see you here next time.
