#112 ‘Lucky’ with Ed Jackson

Ed Jackson: Well, he said to me actually when I went back to see him, he said, you said the weirdest thing that I've ever been told when I've read someone their last rites, if you like, is I said, oh, don't worry, just give it your best shot. And I can't remember, I can't, I can't remember saying that.

Dr Rupy: Welcome to the Doctor's Kitchen podcast. The show about food, lifestyle, medicine and how to improve your health today. I'm Dr Rupy, your host. I'm a medical doctor, I study nutrition and I'm a firm believer in the power of food and lifestyle as medicine. Join me and my expert guests where we discuss the multiple determinants of what allows you to lead your best life.

Dr Rupy: For someone who was playing as a professional rugby player at the highest level for over 10 years to then suffer a serious accident that left them paralysed from their neck down, you wouldn't expect for them to consider themselves lucky. But this is exactly how my next guest refers to himself as. In April 2017, after diving into the shallow end of a swimming pool, Ed Jackson broke his neck and suffered a spinal cord injury which left him paralysed from the neck down. And doctors said that he would never walk again, but through sheer determination and intensive rehabilitation, Ed reached the summit of mountains within a year of his operation, a feat not even the most optimistic of medical professionals could have ever imagined. And today I learned so much from Ed on the podcast. His attitude to consistently challenge himself both physically and mentally, his ability to reframe even the most difficult of situations that enables him to see the positive side of things, and ultimately his humility. Today we talk about obviously his specific traumatic event, but also aspects of his mental journey and how stoicism, reframing his mindset and as he calls it, painting his life with appreciation led to his recovery. Ed's new book, Lucky, that I highly, highly recommend, is the story of how he faced the impossible and how you can also overcome the biggest challenges that life sends your way. And ever since the incident and regaining the ability to walk, Ed has gone on to conquer many mountains, start his own charity, millimeters to mountains.org, and he's also been listed to present the Paralympic games in Tokyo on Channel 4. All the links to his socials and website are on the doctorskitchen.com as well as where you can sign up to our seven-day meal plan for free and join the Eat, Watch, Read newsletter where every week I share a recipe as well as something for you to watch or listen to help you live a healthier, happier life every day, every week. On to the podcast with Ed, I know you're going to find this super inspirational and do check out his own podcast, It's Good to Walk.

Dr Rupy: Take us back, take us back to prior to the accident, what your life was like, playing professionally, what who was Ed back then?

Ed Jackson: Good question. It depends who you're asking, I suppose. My mum would have probably said I was a, I was a little tearaway and and hard to keep a handle on, but I was obviously quite an energetic kid. I suppose I was born quite big compared to the rest of my peers. So rugby ended up being quite a natural route. I'm from the southwest of England, from Bath, so it's a big rugby town. And I actually lived quite, I had a little bit of a sheltered upbringing if you like, lived out in the countryside and sort of just with my brother who was three years younger than me, we kind of entertained ourselves and I was a bit of an introvert actually. But then I ended up getting a rugby scholarship to a school called Millfield down in the southwest, which is a big sporting school, and things sort of progressed from there. Ended up playing for England under 16s, went through the age group system through all the international stuff and and signed for Bath after I left school, which was obviously a childhood, childhood dream of mine, my hometown club. So living the dream as you were. Struggled with a few shoulder injuries. I used to be a swimmer when I was younger, so I think over mobile shoulders then going into a contact sport, running into 20 stone blokes wasn't ideal. But I managed to, I still managed to have a 10-year reasonably successful professional career, which I absolutely loved. Played for five different clubs in the English Premiership and and in Wales as well. And that was all I really knew, you know, my identity was wrapped up in being a rugby player, you know, and being a professional sportsman. So, you know, I'm sure we'll get on to it, but when my life looks very different now and and when I had the accident, you know, that was a tough thing to take because all I'd ever known was was running around on a on a rugby pitch and and all of a sudden I was in a position where running around was definitely not an option anymore.

Dr Rupy: So your brother sounds like he was pretty sporty. What what about your your parents and stuff? Were they pretty supportive of that sort of sporting culture? Were they were they sports people themselves?

Ed Jackson: Not really, actually. My dad was a doctor. He was he's a he's a big football fan. He supports Sheffield Wednesday for his sins. So he's constantly depressed about the sport that he supports. And my mum hated the fact I played rugby. In fact, never came to watch me play because of, you know, the nature of the sport and it being so physical. But they're very supportive, you know, great parents. So because it was my sort of passion, it's what I wanted to do with my friends, they, you know, they they supported me wholeheartedly. But no, there's no history of of sport really in my family, you know. Having said that, they're both reasonably coordinated people, you know, they like to play tennis and and things, but no, it was a bit, it was just because of I think my circumstance of where I was living in the West country and what my friends were doing was the reason I fell into it.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. And like, I'm sure we'll get to it when we talk about what what drives you and what motivates you to achieve such incredible feats despite your limitations physically. But your personality, were you pretty competitive back then? I mean, it sounds like you you would have been considering, you know, you were successful at such a young age in in sports. Were you of that sort of mindset, like that David Goggins style, like, you know, just nothing, nothing can stand in your way?

Ed Jackson: I think to a certain extent, not not as extreme as David Goggins, that's for sure. But I think naturally, you know, as a sports person, you must have had that in you to a certain extent. I think I'm definitely not one of those people who it's do or die, you know, if I lose at something, I throw my toys out the pram. I think I've managed to stay relatively level-headed throughout my career because it has been one of ups and downs, you know, it's I've had highs of, you know, getting my Premiership debut for Bath at 18 years old, you know, to, you know, captaining my country at age group levels, but then, you know, having to sit out for nine months with shoulder injuries, nearly retiring at 21, being released from clubs, being signed by other clubs. So it's been a roller coaster and I think being able to manage that emotionally is a very hard thing and I think and it's where we see a lot of sports people, especially in rugby, struggling mentally, it's the ups and downs and it's competitive people, you know, who are always wanting to win and seeing themselves as failures rather than being able to step back and realize how lucky they are to be there doing the sport they love in the first place. And that's just human nature. So yes, I was competitive. I was always competing against my my younger brother because he's three years younger than me, but he's actually quite a lot bigger than me. So it's it was often a fair fight. And I think that probably drove quite a bit of the competitive instinct in me. But at the same time, I would say that certainly now, but before, I was one of those people that could maybe move on from things quite quickly, which actually came to benefit me further down the line, I think in in my recovery.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, we've spoken to Tom Bates on the podcast before. He's a performance coach. He deals a lot with professional footballers as well as other sports people as well. And it's it's interesting. I mean, did you get any sort of psychological support during your sporting career prior to the accident? I mean, you know, having nine months off because of a shoulder injury when you're a competitive sports person is is hugely, I mean, it's a massive setback. So, I mean, that that that's a lot to deal with.

Ed Jackson: Yeah, no, is the answer. Not at the time. It's got a lot better since then. So we're talking nearly 15 years ago now when I had my first sort of shoulder reconstruction and my rise sort of, I don't know, my trajectory up to that point was quite sharp. You know, I'd captained England under 18s, I'd signed for Bath, I got my debut at a young age and then all of a sudden shoulder injury. Okay, fine, you can manage that, you know, these things happen, but then come back after nine months and then shoulder injury again. So that that looked like it could be the end of my career. Bath ended up releasing me. And I nearly retired then and went to uni, but Doncaster who were in the championship back then, offered me a contract and they said, look, come and give it one more crack in the championship. And a bit of a culture shock for me being the sort of posh kid from Bath going up to Doncaster, but actually a lot of my family are from from Sheffield and from that area. So there was an element of support there, but what, you know, within a week, I was absolutely loving it. And it was the best thing that could have happened to me from this change that was forced on me that I thought was going to be terrible and terrifying. I absolutely thrived up there, got on so well with everyone, ended up playing every week and that became the new launch pad to my career. So that was the kind of the first example for me, I suppose, of change being not necessarily being a negative thing and doesn't have to be scary. It's whatever you make of it. Because that looked like a big negative thing coming my way, but ended up being one of the turning points, turning points of my career really.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that explains the Sheffield Wednesday connection then to your dad, right?

Ed Jackson: That's it.

Dr Rupy: So, so tell us about what happened. So your your accident, what I mean, most people would assume it was from rugby, but it's ironic that it was off the pitch to your mother, I guess.

Ed Jackson: Yes, yeah, it was, I was recovering from another shoulder injury. So I'd survived eight years without having a, without needing a shoulder operation. I'd pretty much learned how to not tackle with my left side. No one would really notice. If anyone had just run on my left shoulder, they would have been straight through, but you get some experience of how to sort of push people off in different directions and the old your man shout came into effect. But it, I was recovering from a shoulder operation. That was fine. My career was actually going really well at that point. I'd moved to Wales, I was living in Cardiff. I was playing some of the best rugby of my life, really loving it. But then this shoulder injury came, so I was rehabbing until pre-season until the next year.

Dr Rupy: How how old were you at this time, sorry?

Ed Jackson: 27. And I went to family friends house for a barbecue. So I went back to Bath for the weekend to stay with my parents because I wasn't playing obviously. Went to family friends house for a barbecue, had lunch, literally went down to the swimming pool. They had this feature pool, hadn't been there before, but it was like not something you expect to see in Somerset, something you more likely see in the Hollywood Hills, but it had like a rock fall in one end and a waterfall in in one end and I just, you know, wasn't paying attention, took my t-shirt off and dived in where the waterfall hit the water. And I think because the where the water hit the water, you couldn't, it was making the ripples, you couldn't see how deep it was, but you just kind of assume if you don't stop to look that where a waterfall is, it's probably deep and there's a big rock face coming in. And I was about 18 and a half stone at the time, looked very different to I do now. And I dived in at a steep angle and what I thought was about eight feet of water turned out to only be about three feet of water. So I hit my head right on the right on the top of my head. The disc in between C6 and C7 vertebrae, which is at the bottom of your neck, exploded. And one of the shards of disc cut my spinal cord in half. So what what was a 12 millimeter thick spinal cord was now six millimeters thick and my neck was dislocated. So it was a pretty serious spinal cord injury. I was sort of, I remember thinking, wow, that, you know, that hurt. I've hit my head hard before, you know, kind of playing rugby, you do it for a living, but not that hard. And I thought I'd stand up, check if there's any blood coming off the top of my head and try and not get any blood in their pool. But then it was when I couldn't move properly that it really dawned on me that there was something serious going on. And I couldn't move from pretty much from the shoulders down almost instantly. And then that sort of confusion as to why I couldn't move quickly turned to panic of, oh no, I could drown here. Fortunately, my dad was in the pool and one of my mates. So they pulled me to the surface. My dad being a being a retired GP, kind of straight away thought there's something wrong with his spinal cord or his brain or something here. So let's let's immobilize him, let's hold him still. So they floated me in the pool until the ambulance came. The ambulance came. Luckily, I had a few of my mates or well, not a few of my mates, but my dad and his friend and one of my friends there, some big guys to get me out of the pool because being so heavy, it would have been tough otherwise. And then the journey to hospital, which was, you know, I knew was only about a 20, 25 minute journey because I'd done it, you know, I knew where I was. I was near home, so and it was a hospital that I was familiar with. I thought it only took that long, but I was told it took them a year for my dad to tell me, I think, till he realized I was in a good enough head space that actually it took two and a half hours because they had to pull over three times to resuscitate me. So obviously that puts a quite a different spin on how fortunate I've I am, I feel to even be here, never mind, you know, never mind be hobbling around and up mountains and stuff because that certainly wasn't on the cards for a long time. But it definitely puts things in perspective because there was no like shining lights and pearly gates. It was just feeling a bit sleepy and I remember them being like, no, no, don't go to sleep. I was like, well, don't worry, we'll be there in 15 minutes. I'll just nod off. And it was actually quite relaxing. But yeah, it was it was obviously far more serious than than I had anticipated at that time. And the only person that knew that was that knew how serious it was really was my dad because he kept very calm. And it was very useful obviously having a doctor throughout this whole process. But because of the situation with my neck, you know, your spinal cord affects everything, your blood pressure, your heart rate, all of those things. And he knew there was a until I was, he said the first time he could relax was when I went into the operating theater because he knew that they wouldn't let me die on the operating table. But between that the time I broke my neck and getting in there, that was a that was a possibility. But I'm glad he didn't tell anyone, especially not my mum, otherwise there would have been panic stations.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah, no, totally, totally. And just for the listener, like you've accurately described when you have your spinal cord cut in that severe fashion, you you do have a risk of losing output and it sounds like that's what happened to you three times on the way. I mean, that's that's incredible. I mean, you've you've probably told this story like tens if not hundreds of times. Has has your emotional attachment to what happened on that day changed throughout that that that period? Like how how does it feel now retelling that story for for the nth time? Like how how has that changed for you?

Ed Jackson: You know, that's a that's an interesting question. I think I've never had a real problem recounting it. It was something I thought I needed to do as a healing process or just to sort of see if there was any demons there if you like. And I've never had an issue with it because I can remember it all vividly as well because I didn't lose consciousness or anything. I think it was something that sometimes those those moments are either lost to shock or burnt in your memory. And for me, it's definitely burnt in my memory. And I actually went back after I left hospital, the first thing I did was go back to the pool and get in the pool just again to see if there were any issues there and and and there really haven't been. But in terms of recounting it, at the start, it was something that didn't seem real. I was just, you know, this is what happened and I didn't really, wasn't really thinking about the knock-on effects of it and the repercussions of it for the rest of my life, not just on a personal level, but how it's impacted, how it's now impacting other people, I suppose, through what I do with the charity and and now the book. But it's it's it's it's weird because I think at initially it was just repeating the same story over and over again. But now I know that the impact it's having on other people or can have and actually I got to a point when I was in hospital or just after I left hospital when I started seeing some good coming from this negative situation that I was like, if enough good comes from this negative situation, then it's no longer a negative situation. So the power is in my hands to turn this from a negative to a positive. And for me, that looked like helping others through through my story, raising money for the charities that supported me, but also other charities. And now that's snowballed onto my own charity and all of these sorts of things. So actually so much good has come for in my opinion, enough good has come from that supposedly bad day that it's not a bad day anymore. So the honest answer is I don't have any issue recounting the story because I actually see it as a weirdly, given what I've just said about dying three times, I see it as a good day.

Dr Rupy: I think that speaks to like your personality because it's really interesting to hear you say that one of the first things you did after treatment was go back to the pool to see if there were any issues because like a traumatic event like that, as most people would describe it as, not not as a good day, but an event like that would would leave some scars for a lot of people, you know, a lot of people would suffer from PTSD from that and might have a fear of water or going near pools or slipping and that kind of stuff. So it I'm trying to see whether there is any connection between the resilient aspect of your personality and how you were prior to to the event occurring and and whether there is there is a connection there.

Ed Jackson: Yeah, potentially. I mean, it wasn't, I love water, right? This is the irony. I used to be a swimmer when I was a kid. I've dived into countless countless pools and off countless cliffs and into the sea and all these sorts of things. And now I know how dangerous it can be and especially being in a spinal unit and seeing how many other people have had their spinal cord injuries from diving into to shallow water. But it wasn't the water that broke my neck, it was the bottom of the pool. So, you know, it was that's the thing I have the issue with. I actually I actually love water. It's really good for my rehab and recovery and it's where I now feel most free. You know, on land, I'm very limited compared to an able-bodied person, but in water, even though I still have limitations, because I could do it competently before, it's somewhere where I feel like I've got a level playing field with others and and, you know, I do a lot of sea swimming and cold water um, cold water swimming and and I find that really helps. So, no, it's definitely not something I have an issue with. And I think it probably helped that I was so comfortable in that space before it happened. Um, you know, if it if water was something that scared me in the first place, I think it probably would that definitely would have cemented it for me, but that just wasn't the case.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, yeah. So, so take us to after you you you've been taken to the trauma center, you've had your procedure. What what happens then? What what's what's your next memory?

Ed Jackson: So, I got taken to Southmead Hospital in Bristol and I had a seven-hour operation to realign my spinal cord, remove all the bits of disc, an amazing surgeon, Mr. Bruer, happened to be on call that night and he saved my life. You know, first of all, the paramedics in the ambulance, then then Mr. Bruer on the operating table, you know, gave me that fighting chance. And then, you know, the the last thing I remember is him saying to me on the operating table, you know, there's some outcomes here, either you you wake up and and, you know, you've got some movement back, you're a lot better. That's a very small percentage, you know, you'll wake up and there's no no recovery yet and we're going to have to wait and see, but there's also an opportunity, there's also, you know, the chance that you won't wake up. Now, I've I've been told that before because it was my seventh operation, you know, rugby's a strenuous sport. I've had knee operations, shoulder operations, and I know, as you obviously know, with anesthetic, there is that tiny chance that you're allergic to it and you won't wake up. But it was the first time I really believed someone who'd read it who'd said it to me. I could see it in his eyes. There was a real chance that, you know, that this was a very serious operation. But the next thing I knew after going under, apparently, well, he said to me actually when I went back to see him, he said, you said the weirdest thing that I've ever been told when I've read someone their last rites, if you like, is I said, oh, don't worry, just give it your best shot. And I can't remember saying that, but he said it was a nice way to go into the operation because normally it's just a look of fear and panic and it puts this pressure on. But I was obviously still in shock as well saying things like that. But no, unfortunately, I woke up in intensive care, so that was the first win, you know, actually waking up in the first place, but I had no movement or sensation from from the shoulders down pretty much. I I had a I could hitch my shoulder a little bit, which was kind of expected because that was above the level of the injury. But even after, you know, I I couldn't breathe properly because I you lose all power to everything, you know, your diaphragm, your intercostal muscles, you know, you can't breathe, you can't cough. I was on my back, um, obviously with in the spinal brace in this intensive care unit and and some of the worst things, some of the hardest things to deal with, you know, the next few days were rock bottom because it was um, the uncertainty of what was what was going to happen and where I was going to end up, but also things like when you're lying on your back, you don't realize how much you clear your throat, just go like that. And I couldn't do that. I didn't have the power. So I'd get some saliva in my throat and it'd feel like I was drowning. And obviously they gave me a button, you know, to press, but I couldn't press it because I couldn't move. So that's when I first started learning about mindfulness and breath work techniques just it was forced upon me because I had to go inside my head and slowly breathe through my nose because the more I panicked, the more I couldn't breathe. And then obviously the bed baths, not being able to go to the toilet for yourself, you know, people you've met for the first time all of a sudden have got their fingers up your bum, which is quite a which is quite a strange scenario. And it was hard for someone, I suppose, who's a proud young bloke, professional sportsman, felt very capable and able and kind of my physicality and my body was my identity and all of a sudden I was just a head on a pillow, um, dealing with these uncertainties. But again, hats off to the staff there and and the nurses and just the how calm and capable they are and they put you at ease and, you know, within within days, you know, it's not it's not very, it's not any easier, but all of those things that were very strange, they've made very seem very normal and and um, but yeah, the first sort of it took five days, six days of Asia tests before the and sorry, an Asia test is an American spinal injury assessment and it's pin pricks, it's I know I know you'll know a lot of this stuff, but just for, for the listener, yeah, this is great. It's like pin pricks, um, they check with temperature and it's basically working out what nerves are damaged because you've got different nerve nerve tracks that that manage motor function, pain, pressure, light touch, all of these sorts of things. So it takes about an hour. Um, and after day five, I was still a category A1, which is the highest level of spinal cord injury. And, um, I think the surgeon thought that I needed to hear it straight. I think they hadn't thought that I was sort of, um, coming to terms with the situation. So he said, he came in one morning and was like, listen, Ed, you need to realize that you're category A1 after five days, um, the likelihood of you ever walking again is minimal, almost zero. We're hoping we can get some use of your arms back so you can be independent. And obviously that was a bit of a like being punched in the stomach pretty hard. Um, my wife and my mum were in the room and I think we'd all been thinking it, but no one had actually verbalized it yet and he had just said it out loud. Um, and I remember the look on their faces and just this weird sort of feeling came over me. It wasn't, it was one of shock. I felt like I'd just been punched in the stomach, but then straight away one of, right, okay, you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself here because this isn't just you that this is affecting, you know, the word independence and looking at my mum and and my wife, I knew that at that point, if I didn't do everything I could to get better, I'd never be able to live with myself, you know, in six months or a year's time, if I looked back and I knew I'd cut corners, um, and it was then affecting other people's lives, I wouldn't be able to live with myself. Whereas if I'd done everything I could and I was still flat on my back in a hospital bed or needing full-time care, then at least I'd tried. You know, and up until that point, I had been feeling sorry for myself, you know, I had been in that sort of victim mindset, you know, why me? You know, you hear of these things happening, but you never expect it's actually going to be you. It felt like it was still all a bit of a dream and a blur. But from that moment on, when when he sort of said those words, um, my attitude completely changed and and I spent every waking minute just sort of staring at my toes and my hands and just imagining them moving because that's all you can do. It's not like you can take yourself to the gym and work really hard to get fit or whatever. It's just visualization, you know, closing your eyes and and then eventually 48 hours later, I say eventually, only 48 hours later, um, my big toe started wiggling. And I remember thinking, I remember thinking, um, oh, that's a spasm. It must just be a spasm because I was having a lot of spasms. And then I did it and I did it again. So I did it again because I couldn't feel it, but I could see it and my brain was telling it to do it. And then just being like, Mom, get in here. I think I think my toe's wiggling and just this bizarre, this bizarre scenario where you've got a room full of, um, your family and nurses staring at your little toe moving and all crying. You know, it used to take, you know, winning trophies and man of the match awards on a rugby pitch to make me happy and now this is the happiest moment of my life and I'm all I'm doing is wiggling my toe. But I suppose that just sort of a bit of a lesson in in perspective. But it just meant that there was some hope, you know, there was something working below the level of my injury. I'd started getting a bit more use of my shoulder back by that point, but that was expected. This was a sign that there was a connection still active there. And I knew even though there was still part of my spinal cord attached, you know, as you know, like it could have been dead. Um, and most complete injuries, it's actually very, very rare to sever a spinal cord. If you do, it'll often end up fatally, but when you hear complete spinal cord injury, it's normally because of the pressure and the compression in in the spinal column from the swelling will have killed a complete cross section of the of of your spinal cord. So we that might have been the case for me, but this was a sign that it wasn't and there was something to work with and then as soon as I had that hope, my mentality changed and bit by bit my body started um, coming back to me through through a lot of hard work, um, not just on my part, but on the physio's part, my family's part, you know, everyone that was involved. recovering from this issue has been a that this this injury has been a massive team effort, you know, it's not just it's definitely not just about me.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, I think for the for the listener, what I might do is um, attach an image of uh, the spinal cord cross section on the show notes and just show where uh, the different areas pass through of the different uh, nerves and how they innovate motor and sensory function because what you're describing there is pretty miraculous, um, considering you had no movement at day five, um, and you had such a severe spinal cord injury to start off with. And, you know, to to go from essentially being waterboarded by your own saliva, uh, straight after surgery, and that is really, like, that's how some people describe it. It's it's it's the most um, frightening experience feeling that you're you're gasping, there's nothing you can do and the fact that you can't even push your button as well, to now being able to move your little toe. I mean, that is huge, huge progression. Um, and and there's something about the mindset because it it sounds quite impossible from from those moments. Um, I mean, were you taught mindfulness or meditation prior to that? I mean, you you said that's essentially what you started doing on on day one because almost out of necessity. But then something else must have kicked in. So like you mentioned visualization, you mentioned that sort of positive energy. Where where did that come from? Or is that something that you your family brought to you?

Ed Jackson: No, I I didn't have a clue about any of this stuff. And and it's kind of um, with the book which which is this is kind of where I've gone with the book because there was a lot of different mental processes I went through when I was in hospital and during my recovery, which was obviously human instinct defending itself or um, you know, they were they were natural processes that I fell back into as a way of dealing with my situation. So early on it was like, you know, the mindfulness, sort of, um, breath work, um, and then, you know, reframing became a big big element of it, trying to seeing the positives, understanding the mind body link, you know, this happened as I was going through through my recovery. I started noticing that actually when I was in a positive head space, my body would react positively. I would recover better and actually it was it was almost flipping it the other way around and putting more importance on getting my head in the right place in order to recover rather than trying to get the body in the right place so that I would feel better. And these things I just, you know, just happened naturally. I didn't have any interest in, you know, in philosophy, psychology, any of these sorts of things before. But then obviously I started reading into them through throughout the process and then following and up until this point, I've, you know, quite taken quite a lot of interest in these areas, philosophies, psychology, I've done an NLP course and all of these sorts of things. And and it's funny relating them all back to these situations that were happening in hospital just by, you know, just as human nature. And that's kind of where where the book goes. It's it's, yes, it's the story of my recovery and someone going through a traumatic life-changing experience and how how it came out the other side, but it's also linking in those tangible processes like mindfulness, you know, that we can take away and benefit us in in everyday life because some of these things that I realized, I have stayed with me and I use daily, um, to make my life that and they make my life better anyway. And and people talk about post-traumatic growth, you know, it's and and, you know, that I've definitely experienced that and I wouldn't ever advise anyone goes and has a life-changing injury to try and experience post-traumatic growth, but I think there's a lot of things that happen to someone after trauma, um, that can benefit other people that haven't necessarily, you know, experienced trauma before.

Dr Rupy: Take take us through, so you're wiggling your left toe, um, take us through the the the next steps there. I know I know there were probably a number of different punctuations across your rehab journey, but what what how long were you were you in rehab for and and and what was the progress after that that huge win?

Ed Jackson: Yeah, so, um, I was in intensive care for two weeks and that was effectively trying to get my blood pressures normal to normalize. So I was on drugs for that. And then I was moved to the RUH in Bath, which was sort of my local hospital, um, into the neuro ward there to wait for a bed to open up at specialist spinal, uh, spinal unit. At that point, I was still flat on my back, you know, I'd had a yes, I got some wiggling toes and my I'd started getting my wiggling fingers in my right hand, but um, not much more apart from that. And obviously, wiggling toes doesn't mean you're going to be walking again. You know, a lot of people in wheelchairs and I know a lot of people in wheelchairs now, you know, can stand up and can even take a few steps, but they need the wheelchair to get around. So it wasn't like I was out of the woods, but there was some hope. Um, and actually when I moved to the RUH in Bath, I met a physio who features quite heavily in my book called Pete, who was the head neuro physio there, crazy looking little Italian guy. And I'd heard rumors of Pete in the intensive care unit, you know, how much of a legend he was and how experienced he was. And I had this image in my mind of what Pete would look like, you know, and then he came around the corner and I nearly asked him, you know, he had like full Puma tracksuit on, he was like nearly 60. And I nearly asked him like, hi mate, do you know where Pete is? I need to speak to him. He's like, yeah, that's me. And he ended up being the next person after the paramedics, after Neil Bruer who who um, was the surgeon. Pete was the next key in the cog that that really pushed me forward. And he did that, um, not just through his technical ability, you know, some of the best physios I've worked with, I've been lucky to work with some great physios in hospital and since I've left hospital, they just have a knack for it. And I think with neuro, it's kind of, you know, you've got to be a bit of a Jedi to be a really good neuro physio. They have a feel for it because obviously neurology is very different, you know, a really good muscular skeletal physio, there's a they're very knowledgeable, there's a process they go through. But with neuro and long-term rehab and life-changing injuries, a lot of it's mental and they almost have to be psychologist at the same time. And Pete said to me straight away, he said, we'll get you back on your feet. And he's since admitted to me that he didn't actually believe that, but judging by my scan results, but he knew that if I didn't believe it, then it would never happen. And up until that point, I'd been told I was never going to walk again. So that mindset change made a big difference. And I think if he was towing the party line, he probably shouldn't have said that to me, but, you know, he'd been around the block enough times to to know that the importance of having my head in the right place. And then we he he used to be in the army and we sort of kicked off with, he knew that I just wanted to get going. I think it was in in me as like, um, as a sports person that I just wanted to have something to do and to feel like I was recovering and pushing myself. So he'd like leave things in the room for me like broom handles and be like, do 400 reps of that. And he knew that I'd try and do 500 and he was very good at managing me emotionally. So the next four weeks, he actually got me from flat on my back with a wiggling foot to the day before I went to Salisbury spinal unit, they managed to stand me up, which I probably was probably too early to stand me up, you know, you have these things called tilt tables and the sorting out your blood pressure and so you don't pass out and all of these sorts of things. But they knew, he knew that the way the protocols were that if I'd gone to Salisbury having not stood up yet after six weeks, I would have gone to, I would have the I would have gone on their um, sort of pathway to leaving hospital in a wheelchair. So they would have just got me better at, you know, managing myself and being independent. But he knew that if I'd stood up once before I went and that was in my notes, then they they were obliged to get me on the stand back to standing protocol. So that was the other way he really helped me out. And then I eventually went to to Salisbury spinal unit, met another amazing physio called Kim, and all of a sudden I was around a lot of other people with spinal cord injuries because up to that point, I've kind of been in a side room on a neuro ward, um, and I'd felt a bit isolated or it was still just a bit of I was in a bubble. But then I was all of a sudden I was around 40 other people with spinal cord injuries. And I realized two things straight away. First one was it wasn't just full of like extreme sports athletes and bull fighters and the kind of people you'd expect to get spinal cord injuries. It was a complete cross section of society, which at first I was quite disappointed about because I was looking forward to meeting a load of X-game athletes, but um, you realize that these things just happen, you know, a lot of them were medical complications or tumors or, you know, very benign ways to get a spinal cord injury, but also, you know, there was um, all ages, men, women, all religions, races, it didn't matter. And and that made me realize that these spinal cord injuries can happen to anyone and there's no fault involved. There was a lot of good people in there that bad bad things had happened to. So that helped me start removing some of the blame from myself. And I think to that point, I was carrying a bit of blame. I felt guilty for making a mistake like that. But then spending time with other people and hearing how they had had their accidents, you know, I became very good friends with a guy called Rick who just picked up his toddler and a disc in the bottom of his back blew out and now he's in a wheelchair, you know, for the rest of his life, you know, that's simple, you know, and um, that helped me start removing some of the blame. And then the next big realization was even though I was in a bad place, you know, I wasn't walking by that point, you know, I'd stood once, but it didn't mean I was out of a wheelchair. I was improving, you know, I was moving, I I was getting that little bit of movement every day, not every day, but um, most days I was moving in the right direction and also I was a lot better off than some other people. You know, they were on had permanent trackies in, couldn't breathe for themselves. Um, and I started feeling, you know, lucky about my situation. I started feeling fortunate about the position I was in rather than feeling unlucky about the position I was in, you know, I started feeling grateful that I wasn't still on the bottom of that of the swimming pool, you know, I could have quite easily died. I started feeling grateful that my dad was there to immobilize me after knowing to hold me still after the accident because a lot of the damage caused in spinal cord injuries is actually done in the handling after the accident. You know, if it was just my friends, they probably would have just dragged me out of the water and rightfully so, you wouldn't expect them to do anything else, but it could have been a different story. And the fact that I was improving, um, I realized, you know, you've got no, you've got no right to complain, to feel sorry for yourself anymore. Look around you, you're really lucky to be in the position you are and and have some hope to to improve for the future and and that mindset change, um, feeling lucky about my situation rather than unlucky about it, my body started reacting and I just kicked on massively. And after six weeks in the spinal unit, so three and a half months in total from the accident, I left in a wheelchair, but I had taken my first few steps by that point, um, using um, foot splints and and parallel bars and stuff, but I was on the road to being a to being a walker again and and that was something that just three and a half months previously was I'd been told was was never going to be a possibility. So, um, yeah, it was it was starting to turn from a horror story into one of hope and and positivity. Um, and after another four or five months of rehab, I decided I wanted to do something to to raise money for the charities that supported me since I'd left, but also give myself a goal and a target. You know, we spoke about shoulder injuries before with rugby and you could go in the diary, right, shoulder reconstruction, nine months, that's how long rehab takes, that's the game, you know, so I'm going to aim for that. You had something to aim for. But for this, it was just endless. It was like, we don't know how far you're going to get. You're going to be rehabbing for the rest of your life. Good luck. So I needed to put a challenge in place for myself. So I told Pete, um, the physio that I wanted to climb Snowdon uh, on the year mark. And he thought I meant two-year mark because I was still using a wheelchair after nine months. Um, so I had three months. And I said, no, on the one-year mark, set myself the challenge and and he thought I was mad, but I said, I'm going to go for it. And if you want to join me, you can. So obviously they had no choice but to come with me. And I opened it up to anyone else.

Dr Rupy: So at nine months, you were in a wheelchair and how many steps were you taking at this point?

Ed Jackson: Um, I was walking in rehab. So a lot like with a with poles or in parallel bars. So I probably, so I was using a wheelchair day-to-day to get around, but I'd probably walked up to sort of, I don't know, a few hundred meters, um, in one go.

Dr Rupy: Okay, that's a that's a big stretch to go to Snowdon then.

Ed Jackson: I'd um, I'd sort of, I don't know, your my mind had changed, I think a bit in terms of, um, where you contemplate life, obviously, having died a few times, but also the situation I was in and uh, you just think, you know, what's the worst that can happen? You go for it and you don't make it, but you know, at least you set the main motivation for me was to send a message to the other people in hospital who had been told they weren't able to do something or might not be able to do something. I was lucky to have the support network to tell me otherwise and to motivate me in another way. And I realized how important um, my mental state was to my recovery. And most of that came from outside, you know, that came from people supporting me. But there were loads of people who didn't have that. And I wanted to at least send a message to those people. There was a bit of a shop window there with being an ex-rugby player and I knew if I did something on the one-year mark, even if it was climbing 200 meters up Snowdon and failing miserably, at least people have gone, oh well, Ed was told he'd never walk again and look, he managed to do that. And I've been accused in the past of of maybe giving people false hope. Um, at, you know, a couple of times, but I think I don't agree with that because I think, you know, the word hope means it might or might not happen. That's the whole point. And I'm very, you know, I I always say, you know, you can only recover to within the scope of your injury. You know, if I had a severed spinal cord, then I wouldn't be walking. But if you want to maximize that recovery within the scope of your injury, you need to believe that you can, you can push on and you can get further. And you might not reach that point. You know, I didn't reach that, I haven't reached that point. I can't run around, you know, I've still got loads of health complications, you know, unseen ones and seen ones with with movement, but I've got so much further than I would have if I had just succumbed and believed that I was never going to walk again. So I wanted to try and do something that sent that message out to the masses and and by doing that on the 12-month mark, I thought that was quite that would be quite poignant. Fortunately, we did actually make it to the top. Um, it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. It took nine hours. Um, I opened it up I opened it up to anyone who wanted to come and join in. So I'd started a blog um, during hospital, um, that had gained some traction. And I thought maybe a few people, family members and a couple of dogs would turn up, but there were 70 people on the start line that I didn't even know, which blew my mind and definitely put the pressure on to try and get up there then. But we just had the most amazing weekend, um, sharing stories with each other and these strangers I'd never met, you know, they were there for their own reasons and things that they were going through and and that sort of sparked the idea for the charity. And I remember being stood on top of Snowdon and just sort of looking out and thinking and just feeling happy for the first time and feeling like I'd had some real purpose in my life. And I was like, look, look at all the people stood around here, smiling, laughing with each other that they hadn't met before, you know, surrounded by all the people that had got me to that point as well, physios, doctors, friends and family. Um, and I just felt like this is this is something I need to do something with. I need to, I didn't know what it was at that point, but I just felt so useless for so long. I'd lost my one what I thought purpose was, you know, with rugby and I'd felt lost, I suppose. And then all of a sudden I felt it again. That spark was lit and I kind of haven't looked back from that point.

Dr Rupy: Mate, I've I've just got this image of you staring down at the top of Snowdon and just feeling so fulfilled. I mean, it's it's it's literally putting like my hairs up on the back of my neck. It's a it's an incredible vision and and what you've been able to achieve is just remarkable, mate. Um, I I'm glad you you picked up on the the the concept around giving people false hope because I think within medicine, we are sort of, um, we're we're we're suggested to not give too much hope to patients for fear of false hope, for fear of, you know, giving them the wrong impression about what's achievable and stuff. I I'm a bit of a rebel against that concept. I think we actually need to swing for the fences and we need to allow people who are willing to put in the effort and the and and uh allow us to be able to motivate them through different means, whether it be through health coaching, whether it be through visualization, through giving them goals to achieve something that might seem impossible. I think it, you know, we we actually need to be a bit more comfortable. Um, but we're we're practicing quite uh litigious medicine these days and we have to be quite careful about, you know, what people might say or how people might react in the wrong way. So, uh, it's an interesting concept. And and I'm I'm now beginning to understand um, why you called your book lucky because of that reframing. And it's it's it's again, like I used the same word, remarkable. It's remarkable how you came around to that idea about how grateful you were considering your circumstances because a lot of people in the similar situation would, you know, would feel very hard done by and and rightly so, you know, it's it's it's very easy to see how people might fall in that pattern of like, why me, why is this happening to me and then spiral into into shame and and depression. But but you're able to rise out of that. Not a lot of people can do that.

Ed Jackson: Um, just to to go back to what you said, I'm I'm really glad you said that about um, being a bit of a rebel, you know, but for for the right reasons. And I think it does have to be carefully measured, but all of the people who had the most impact on me throughout my time in hospital were a bit of a rebel for the right reasons because the structures are there for, you know, the structures are there within the NHS or within any medical practice and these for the guidelines are there, but they need to be able to be bent into because every individual patient's case is different, right? And every person's different and their mental processes are different and it's about going around it in the right way. It's not saying you are going to get better, you know, but you at least saying there's a chance and we're going to get through this, you know, not you, you know, making it inclusive and making sure that that person's mindset is looked after as much as their stats on paper. Um, so I completely agree with you on that point. And in terms of the reframing and and why the book is called lucky, that happened as a result of my injury and I think that's that reframing was a defense mechanism of my brain, you know, being able to look at the positive side. If I spent the whole time feeling, you know, in that victim mindset, feeling how unlucky I was, I would have just it would have eaten me up. But it's amazing how reframing everything becomes a practice and it's now spilled over into the rest of my life and all of those things that I used to take for granted, I don't take for granted anymore. You know, spending nearly a year in a wheelchair, I am so I feel so lucky that I can now just step up one step. You know, before stepping up a step did not make me happy, but now I smile every time I manage to walk down the stairs in the morning, you know, and you know, all of my friends and family that I used to take for granted, every day I would wake up in my hospital bed and everything had been taken away from me, you know, my body, you know, the way I moved, my control, even the control my control of my bowels and everything, but my friends and family were still stood there, you know, and they were they were the one thing that no one could take away from me at that point. And now I never, I would never take them for granted anymore. You know, that time when your mum rings you and she's been speaking for half an hour and you're holding the phone away from your head. Sorry, mum, I've got to go. I've got a call coming. You know, you just I just don't do that anymore as much as I might want to sometimes, but um, I think once you repaint your life with appreciation because you've had it all taken away, I now live every day, you know, full of gratitude and and in a way more positive place than I did before because all of those little things, as I said that I used to take for granted, I just don't and that's as a result of that mindset change and the bigger picture with the accident is now spilled over into everyday life.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, I I love that term you just used, painting your life with appreciation. Um, that should be a t-shirt. You you mentioned philosophy earlier. Um, I I wonder what who were like the first sort of books or philosophers you listened to um, during your recovery journey?

Ed Jackson: Yeah, so um, one of my book, one of my friends gave me a book called The Obstacle is the Way, which is about stoicism, Ryan Holiday. I love that book. Yeah, um, which was very poignant obviously, given the obstacle I was facing. But a lot of it rang really true with me. And then I kind of deep dived into stoicism and it's still something that I implement in everyday life, you know, the the grounding message of um, you can't affect what happens to you, you can only affect how you respond, which is is such an important one and not beating yourself up about the things that you can't affect, including other people's opinions and um, and you know, life life chucks stuff at all of us, curve balls at all of us all the time and it's, you know, and actually I found further than just dealing with them and not getting too affected by them in a negative way, um, is using them to grow as a person. You know, most of the most of the growth that I've experienced as a person has come as a result of the challenges I've faced. So I welcome them now and I actually put myself in situations that are outside of my comfort zone that um, that are going to challenge me, that are a bit scary because that's the only way I feel that I can develop and grow. Now that stoicism then got then that stoicism then led me into um, a bit more spirituality and Buddhism, Taoism, um, which if you'd told this to a 20-year-old rugby player, Ed Jackson, he would have laughed at you, like called it wishy-washy mumbo jumbo, you know, typical um, naive, stubborn, whatever. But I mean, I've become quite a spiritual person as a result of understanding that mind body link and and but also, you know, there's there's real science behind the philosophies and how they impact you. It's not no longer just, you know, they're there for a reason and and I'm now much more peaceful. I meditate. I'm terrible at it, but I do find it very useful. Um, I'm I'm persistent, but I find it in other ways, you know, for me, moving meditation, being outside in nature, I have to concentrate so hard on not falling over all the time that it's hard to think about anything else. So I just go and pick an uneven, I go and pick an uneven bit of ground and just try not to fall over for an hour and I find afterwards I'm my head's very clear. Um, but you know, lots of different things that that have helped, um, with philosophy and spirituality, um, with my recovery and and a lot of it is in the book actually, you know, I've tied it a lot back to to realizing these things for the first time, um, just naturally, but then how the research and and how further reading into it has made it go, oh yeah, that wasn't just you, that is an actual thing. So, um, uh, yeah, my interests have changed drastically from being a rugby player and just trying to complete Call of Duty and then beat people up on a rugby pitch. Um, I'm quite a different character now, but I actually I think that I'm probably I feel more at home being like this and I think actually I've reverted back to to type and actually the rugby player image was something that I'd put over the top. I wasn't born like that and my interests, I feel a lot more comfortable now with where I am and and being more open-minded and being able to dabble into different areas than those societal sort of tramline pressures that I had as a rugby player. This is the way you should be, this is the way everyone else is, this is how you fit in. Um, now that's all been taken, the shackles have been taken off and I still love rugby, I still work in it a lot and um, there's still elements of that character that are still instilled in me and and I think actually a lot of the character that I was that was instilled in me as a rugby player has been very important for for my recovery, you know, that work ethic, the respect, the team, the teamwork, the team element, you know, um, has been really important for my for my recovery, but also for me as a person, but at the same time, being able to strip that away and open my mind up to different possibilities, what I thought was game over, I've got no purpose anymore, I've lost the one thing I'm good at is actually, no, that's that's moved out the way and now you can go and try loads of different things and I've actually found more purpose in other things now.

Dr Rupy: You know, that's really interesting. I I didn't actually think about how it's almost like an element of your post-traumatic growth about how because you're having to be your most vulnerable self, I everything's been stripped away, you can actually be authentic and actually be who you want to be. And that might have always been a spiritual person, but because you were fulfilling the characteristics of a rugby playing, uh, you know, competitive athlete, it's it's you were never allowed or you never gave yourself permission to to be that person. Um, and I'm glad you talked about the the science behind everything that you're doing because there is genuine science behind all the different elements uh that have helped you along your recovery journey, including meditation, visualization. In fact, I had Dr. Tara Swart, who I should connect you to actually, who is a neuroscientist and she teaches at MIT. And um, her whole book called The Source is basically like the sciencey version of The Secret. Um, but uh, the the whole book is about the um, science behind manifesting uh, whatever your your vision is and how having a crystallized vision of what that is helps you on your journey and increases neuroplasticity, which are the connections between the uh, your neuro synapses and um, it can genuinely accelerate uh, healing as well, which is a very controversial thing to say as a medic because, you know, me talking about food as medicine, when I'm talking to patients with IBD, I I have definitely had criticism myself of of giving false hope or giving the impression that food is a panacea. Food is not a panacea, it's just one of those elements that you have in your toolbox. And I think in our clinical toolbox, we have genuine things that we know work like surgery, rehab, physiotherapy, but we also have psychotherapies, we have nutrition, we have a whole bunch of other sort of things that are a little bit more woo-woo or as they would be described as, but there is a burgeoning science behind them that's going to hopefully solidify them for other medics and it'll become more commonplace to practice them.

Ed Jackson: Yeah, I mean that that term woo-woo is going to disappear, I hope, soon. And it is, it is disappearing, you know, I think because the science is being put behind these woo-woo, you know, methods. Um, and uh, yeah, I love I love that. I love what you do with, you know, the Doctor's Kitchen and I I'm a massive believer in in terms of um, nutrition and how that can help and supplementation and using as many natural ingredients as possible and and it's also about what you remove, right, as well as what you what you add in and and I've definitely felt that. Um, yeah, I've definitely felt that for sure. And going back to what you said of said about, you know, people removing the purpose to then open your mind up to to other opportunities. I think we write, we we create a narrative for ourselves and actually more often than not, society creates a narrative for us. You know, you might have just ended up being a little bit smarter, so you ended up doing maths, which then led you into accounting, which then meant, you know, and you end up as, you know, an accountant. You're like, well, I am an accountant, you know, I am boring or I do only I am only good with numbers. It's like, no, there's probably an an inner artist in there somewhere. And people are so scared of change that they'll actually carry on doing something that their path has led them to even if it doesn't make them happy because they they they truly believe that's what they were meant to do and that's all they could do. But actually one tiny little change, one missed bus ride, whatever it might have been earlier on in their development could have turned them into a completely different person. And we see it with, I see it with rugby all the time, just that's the example that that I know. I work with a charity called Restart who the rugby players association's um, they look after all the professional players in England. And there's a big issue with depression in in professional sport and especially in rugby with the demographic um, being, you know, I'm only talking about the male side, obviously there's young female rugby players as well, but the demographic being young males. I think a big part of it is down to people, you know, you love the sport when you're coming through school. When it becomes a job, it is very, it becomes very different. You've got those pressures of selection, of injury, but also finances, you know, you're looking after your family, you're being moved around the country from club to club. You're not earning like a footballer. It's not something you can do for five years and then, you know, buy a load of houses and retire for the rest of your life. Um, and and I think a lot of players, they they'll get criticized publicly in the press because they have a bad game as if they've done it deliberately to annoy the fans. And they're sat there thinking, you know what, I don't even like this. I just happen to be a bit more coordinated and maybe a bit bigger than the people at school. And then from that point, everyone told me I was so lucky to be doing that that I couldn't possibly do anything else. But inside, you know, you've got these frustrated inner doctors or artists, you know, that's waiting to come out. And some people, you know, you see it after people retire, you know, it'll take two or three years, normally a tough, you know, tough mental transition, but then they'll realize, wow, okay, you know, I wasn't just a rugby player, I was something else. And they'll go on to have successful careers doing something else. But at the time, once you're engrossed in it, you think there's no way I could possibly do anything else. And I can't try and give that message to players now, to young players. You're so lucky to be doing what you're doing. It's an amazing thing to be playing professional sport with your mates, but don't lose sight of the bigger picture. Get out there and try things outside of the sport. You know, as much to cross things off as to to realize what you want to do afterwards, but it'll make you a more rounded person. As soon as you realize there's more to life and there's other things out there, it makes you a lot more comfortable in what you're doing at the time. And definitely if you don't enjoy what you're doing, do not be scared of of exploring other options. Now, the caveat to that is, don't just get up now and quit your job, you know, and then come back and go, oh, Ed, you told me I was supposed to follow my dream. But it's fine to have hobbies and interests outside of what you do and especially start exploring them if you're not happy with what you're doing right now. If it doesn't get you out of bed in the morning and you you're not looking forward, you know, obviously there's going to be mornings when you don't want to go to work. That's natural. But if you're not excited or driven by by what you do, then, you know, we only get to do this once, right? There's only one one life. You know, have a think about changing it up because, like I said before, all the best things that have ever happened to me have come after change and and usually change that no one would wish on anyone.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. And this this this aspect, um, this mental aspect that you've honed over the over the last few years since your injury, you know, is this spilled out into your into your family, like your your wife and your parents and your friends? Have they started reframing as well? Have they started changing their mindset?

Ed Jackson: Um, yeah, I'd like to think so. My wife definitely has. She gets annoyed at me sometimes though because she's like, sometimes she just wants to come home from work and have a good whinge. And I'm in there going, I'm in there going, oh, look at the bigger picture. And she's like, shut up. I just just want to kick off about something for a bit. But um, no, it's definitely, yeah, instilled. She's having run the charity now and in terms of getting a healthy dose of perspective all the time, you know, the beneficiaries we work with, it makes you realize often how lucky you are. Um, the rest of my family, I'd like to think so to a certain extent, you know, um, some more than others maybe. And my friends, you know, again, some of them will will take the piss about how positive, how annoyingly positive I can be, but also I'll get a lot of calls from them now, more than I would have before, you know, when they're, you know, when they're in a tough place or when they're looking or when they're just looking for, you know, a bit of positivity. So, um, I'd like to think it has spilled out a little bit. And I think I'm a big believer in these ripple effects, you know, if you do these small acts of kindness and just even to strangers, it can have a massive impact. It picks that person's day up, they do nice things to other people and and it makes a big difference. And we we feel like we can just mope around and feel sorry for ourselves, um, and it's only going to impact us, but that also impacts other people in a negative way. So I try and do that as much as possible, um, try and give a bit of positivity to people day-to-day, but that's not saying that I don't get frustrated and pissed off as well, like anyone else does. I just think I'm maybe better at putting it in perspective quicker these days, you know, it's actually one of the one of the stoic philosophies, which is like living in accordance with nature. And, you know, it's it's understanding that you that you that your emotions are normal, you know, it's not about suppressing emotions. You get angry, you get sad, you know, that's absolutely fine, but it's about rationalizing those emotions quickly. You know, is this emotion useful for me or for the people around me? Right, okay, let's move it on. And that's where Buddhism crosses over as well, right? The mindful gap, mindfulness gap, you know, the the gap between stimulus and response. This thing's happened to me, I'm feeling angry. Hang on a minute, take a take a breath, is this anger useful? No, all right, move it on. You know, and that's that is a daily practice and that's something that you'll continue continually try and get better better at for the rest of my life. Um, but it's definitely something that I'm way better at now than I was before.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, I'm I'm glad we're talking about that because I think it's easy for a lot of people to assume that you, you know, you're quite puritanical in your thoughts and you don't have any frustrations. And it's funny you said that about your wife because during the the height of the pandemic, um, obviously my girlfriend was annoyed at the situation, you know, she was um, worried, she had anxiety and I was always trying to reframe it. I was like, actually, you know what, this year has actually been pretty good for this, this and this reason. And even though I was going into to hospital and I was working full-time, overtime, all the rest of it, you know, I could still see the positive elements, but that can be quite annoying for some people. So, you know, it's it's important, I think, to have a whinge and a whine, but then reframe those thoughts as to is this thought serving me? Is this thought sucking my energy? How do I reframe this thought and then go through that process? Um, and and stoic philosophy is a is a really good way of engineering that sort of uh approach to life because it's normal to have annoyances, it's normal to have negativity. It's just what you do with that on a day-to-day basis. And and gratitude for me personally, something I practice every day uh by by writing it down and and journaling has been um, has been super useful. Since uh, climbing Snowdon, you you've done a ton of other things. So, you know, you've got your charity now, you've been climbing up a whole bunch of other uh, tall mountains and hills and all the rest of it. I mean, what what what's the most exciting thing that you're you're working on at the moment?

Ed Jackson: Um, the the most exciting thing I think coming up is obviously the book the book launch next week. So the the irony, um, the irony of being stuck in isolation in Iceland when my book comes out and your book being called Lucky is is not lost on me. Um, it's hilarious. However, you know, just trying to reframe the situation and get as much done from over here as possible and enjoy it as much as I can. I suppose that's one of the messages.

Dr Rupy: We should add some context to that. So you're you're currently isolating in in Reykjavik, right?

Ed Jackson: Lucky old me has got COVID and I'm currently isolating in Reykjavik for two for two weeks having just finished a a trek in the least populated country in Europe. Um, but you know, I'm I'm feeling okay. Uh, it was I've I've been double vaccinated, so it's probably just this pesky Delta variant and I think probably someone brought it over on the plane or something. But the the rule is two weeks mandatory isolation. So I'm currently twiddling my thumbs over here. Um, but yeah, apart from that, I'm lucky back in time to then fly to Japan for the Paralympics. So I'm I'm over there broadcasting for Channel 4, um, heading up all of the team sports over there, which I'm obviously so excited about. The Olympics is on at the moment, which is great because it gives me something to do during the day whilst I'm stuck in this house. But um, I've always watched the Paralympics with massive admiration, not just because of the the athletes, of course, but what Channel 4 has done with it, um, and over the last sort of two games and the exposure they've given disability and to to play a part of that is going to be a massive privilege, but also a massive challenge, you know, live TV is actually way more petrifying than running out against Samoa, you know, so it's uh, it's um, it's a different challenge, but it's great to be challenging yourself, you know, it gives me some motivation to try and improve in a different direction. And then the charity, you know, the charity is going from strength to strength. It's strength, we're still very early on in our life cycle, but we've taking beneficiaries away now. So effectively, what it it the charity was set up to mirror my own recovery. So using the outdoors and challenging yourself, so from climbing Snowdon, then gone on to do stuff in the Alps and the pool, um, to kind of instill that bit of confidence, but also to shake you out of the rut you might be in. Um, so we take people who are suffering with their mental health because of trauma. So that might be physical trauma or psychological trauma. So we're taking people away with PTSD, spinal cord injuries, whatever it might be. Take them away on a challenge as the catalyst for change and then put a sort of a three-year development program in place and a support network around them of life coaching, retraining, therapy, whatever it might be that they need, um, to cement that change, cement that recovery because, you know, as much as nature and the mountains gave me in terms of my recovery, the real reason I'm in the position I am is because of my support network. And I almost felt guilty for that, um, because so many people don't have that support network. So through the charity, we try and offer other people that support network effectively. And now we're starting to see some some real changes in people and um, and it's incredibly rewarding and grounding and it's where my passion lies. However, as my wife keeps reminding me, um, it is a it is our passion because it doesn't pay us any money. We do it all voluntarily. So keeping things like the broadcasting going, I've got my podcast, it's good to walk. Um, and uh, do I deliver talks to businesses around change management and resilience and stuff. So that sort of puts a roof over our head for now. Um, but so many different exciting weird things that I never imagined I would ever be doing when I was a rugby player. You know, I did a I did a a degree in real estate finance and I was going to go and work in the city in commercial property and actually I did go and do that for a bit. And I didn't hate it and in fact, if I did go and work in the city, that's probably what I'd do and everyone was great and everyone was lovely, but I just remember thinking, look, you've just got to give it a shot, you know, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, you can come back to this, but you've got to follow your passions in life, life's too short. So we did and things are working out at the moment. Um, but the fact I don't, you know, five-year plan, no idea. Um, and I know it's important to have plans, but I that used to terrify me. Um, but for the first time now, I'm excited that I don't know what I'm going to be doing in five years time. You know, I think I just I focus on the processes, try and stick to my core values, whatever they might be, you know, work ethic, honesty, you know, um, positivity, those sort of things, um, and watch life unfold and and at the moment it's unfolding in lots of weird and wonderful directions. Where it'll end up, I don't know, but um, yeah, feeling very lucky to to be doing what I'm doing.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you said that because I think there's particularly in today's society, there's so much pressure to have a five-year or a 10-year plan. I constantly get asked about it with the Doctor's Kitchen, where do you see this? Like, what what's the mission and all the rest of it. I mean, I have a mission and I enjoy the process, but I couldn't tell you or crystallize exactly what it's going to look like. I would love to know, uh, but uh, it's it's tough. But when you do find something you do want to achieve, like for you it was Snowdon, and if you can crystallize that and focus on that, it's hugely impactful in terms of your ability to achieve it. Um, and I'm just super excited about this charity. I mean, that sounds like something we as the NHS should be funding because I think the support network element of it is so under recognized. Um, people talk about the foundations for health and yes, there's nutrition and sleep and exercise and all the rest of it, but sense of purpose and community are things that are integral to human nature and so, so important for recovery as well as just, you know, normal day-to-day and and living. So I really commend you on recognizing that um, and it's uh, an incredible vision for the charity, man. I can't wait to see that to see that grow.

Ed Jackson: Yeah, thanks mate. Yeah, that that peer-to-peer support is just so important. Um, you know, I when I was lucky to have it through starting the blog and and people got in touch with initially, I was very private and very guarded. I suppose it was just not showing any weakness, you kind of instilled in me as a as a young guy as a rugby player and I'd started this voice notes, couldn't move. I'd started this diary through voice notes, just as a way of offloading before I went to bed to try and sleep. Woke up one morning and well, woke up one afternoon after sort of passing out after doing some rehab and my mate was going through all my voice notes. And as as your friends do, your private voice notes. And he was like, I I two things, mate. What first of all, you're a weirdo. Second of all, you should make some of this public because it might help some people one day because it was just about day-to-day life in the in the hospital for a long time. And it took some persuading, but eventually I did. I started documenting my, you know, day-to-day, what what just what had happened that day, what my thoughts and emotions were and and um, I thought it was to potentially help one or two other people one day, but actually it really started helping me because people started coming out of the woodwork and going, I was there, you know, been through it before, try this, try that, don't worry, keep your head up, you know, and that support that I got from peers effectively, made the biggest difference psychologically for me because not only did I have people giving me practical advice, and often it wasn't advice any different than the doctors would be giving at me giving me, but it was coming from someone who had been there, so it just sinks in that little bit more. But more than that, it gave me an outlet of people to speak to that I didn't mind being completely open and honest with about my emotions, um, about the nitty-gritty things that I didn't want to talk to my mum or my wife about because these were strangers and these were people who could relate to it. And I felt that power. Um, and you know, millimeters to mountains is as much a community as it is, you know, direct practical help. The the we've seen the beneficiaries help each other more than we help the beneficiaries, you know, and watching that process happen, putting these people together and and seeing them heal each other and then all of a sudden go from an isolated situation, you know, if it's someone who's really struggling with depression or anxiety, often they've isolated themselves for a long time. So it's getting them out out of that isolation and putting them with people and they go, hang on a minute, it's not just me in this situation and watching the impact that that has is um, is incredible.

Dr Rupy: Yeah, that I mean, that that sounds like a formula that could be applied to so many different areas as well. Um, and we're seeing that actually with tech, uh, how peer-to-peer networks that have a specific focus around them, like I'm thinking of health unlocked, that the online communities around different um, health issues has been super impactful and that's actually been proven out as well. There's a landmark um, paper that came out in JAMA a few years ago. Um, and and also on the note about the voice notes, how many voice notes did you record?

Ed Jackson: Uh, I've I've recorded a lot. A lot of voice notes. Just doing my Alexa and then eventually when I started being able to move my hand and arm enough, I started typing on an iPad. So I had an iPad in front of me. So it was transcribing the voice notes effectively. And then I started being able to type and it became my rehab as well to use different fingers. So every evening I'd write around about my day. And it was quite funny actually. Um, I got a letter from my old English teacher at school whilst I was still in hospital and um, it just literally said, you know, it was a lovely letter. He was a legend of a good legend of a guy, but he he was like, Ed, I never knew you were actually listening. Which was just so him, like backhanded compliment way of saying he was quite impressed with the way I was writing. But no, I never I never wrote before really and and it was actually through that process of trying to heal that I actually found out I really enjoyed it to the point where I've now got a book out, which is absolutely which is kind of crazy. But it's also a tool that I recommend to anyone. You said you you journal, I think it's um, a really, you know, even if no one else ever reads it, it's a really sort of great way of practicing gratitude, offloading emotions, processing thoughts, um, and then if you do have the confidence to write about to put things out there, you know, you're always nervous that people, how people are going to respond, but you'd be amazed, you know, everyone is going through their own stuff, you know, their own crap and being able to and sharing sharing yours encourages other people to share theirs and together, like we've just mentioned that community, that peer-to-peer support is is so powerful. So I would encourage people to do that as well.

Dr Rupy: Yeah. Well, mate, I've I've learned so much on this short amount of time that we've been chatting here. Um, painting your life with appreciation, I think is my takeaway and uh, and if there's anyone else that's listening, you know, journaling, all the other tips that you came up with in terms of reframing and gratitude are things that are are fantastic. And I'm sure there's going to be a whole bunch more tips in the book, uh, lucky. And I can't wait to see you on live TV, mate. Um, hopefully, uh, not as uh, not as nerve-wracking uh, as it as it might sound or or you know, um, you might think it might be, but I'm sure you're going to be um, you're going to thrive on TV.

Ed Jackson: Yeah, I can't wait. It's um, it's really exciting. Yeah, and I've really enjoyed our chat and um, I can't wait for to to hopefully one day meet in person.

Dr Rupy: Definitely, absolutely, mate. Absolutely. I can't wait. It's been a privilege. It's been my my pleasure. Thank you so much for listening to today's podcast. I hope you found that as inspirational as I did listening to Ed. Uh, and hopefully, you know, you pick up a few tips, maybe it's journaling, maybe it's meditation, maybe it's some form of exercise that can form a part of your mindfulness strategy. And certainly for me, the thing that I think should be printed on my wall is painting your life with appreciation. I love that term. And uh, I I'm glad that uh, I had the opportunity to sit down with Ed virtually and chat and do check out obviously the book Lucky. It's uh, a thrilling read, super, super emotional and inspirational. I found myself tearing up at some parts of our conversation today as well, as I'm sure a lot of listeners did. Um, and I will see you here on the podcast next time.